Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

There were no Illyrians in 1700 BC. In dalmatia in 1700 BC there were proto-albanian speakers. Later in the 6th century BC greeks would meet these proto-albanians speakers and call them Illyrians.
That's what Matzinger is trying to say i think.

No that is absolutely not what he is saying. He is saying an Illyrian Centum language was spoken by Illyrians and that this was not proto-Albanian which was from a half-satemised group that came later to the balkans. He hypothesises about how one branch of this half satemised group may have reached italy.

His position on proto-albanian is that it came to albania in the post roman period.

This lecture included autosomal ratios of balkan hunter gatherers, chg, etc but i didnt catch them exactly, so they are clearly basing their argument on a real signal and data. So the people getting hyped up about some spin doctors misrepresentation are in for serious disappointment.

If you dont agree with matzinger, just say you disagree, stop trying to attribute some false opinions onto him that he clearly doesnt support.

 

[Excine]

Interesting comment brought up by Kelmendasi:

"Is there any archaeological or archaeogenetic evidence for a movement of Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori-derived groups into the eastern Adriatic coast? I think without any direct evidence for such a migration, Matzinger's new paradigm is rightfully due for criticism and scrutiny."

 

[broder]

The beaker influence is real, and the presence of non-z2103 R1b is significant.

Not denying that, especially among the more northern tribes as is pretty obvious from the recent paper. However, my point back in the day was that neither Illyrian or Albanian came down with such a movement.

 

[Johane Derite]

Not denying that, especially among the more northern tribes.o as is pretty obvious from the recent paper. However, my point back in the day was that neither Illyrian or Albanian came down with such a movement.

Fair, i hope that the lecture is posted online because there really was a lot of detail and material.

 

[Hawk]

One thing i wonder is, whether part of some E-V13 subclades were part of Proto-Albanoid group, or it was a Bessi influence on top of Proto-Albanoids in Central Balkans.

 

[Johane Derite]

One thing i wonder is, whether part of some E-V13 subclades were part of Proto-Albanoid group, or it was a Bessi influence on top of Proto-Albanoids in Central Balkans.

I think there might have been some branches in central balkans, but the latest paper has me confused tbh about ev13.

 

[Hawk]

Interesting comment brought up by Kelmendasi:

"Is there any archaeological or archaeogenetic evidence for a movement of Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori-derived groups into the eastern Adriatic coast? I think without any direct evidence for such a migration, Matzinger's new paradigm is rightfully due for criticism and scrutiny."

AFAIK, He claims Messapi migrated there or Proto-Messapi from LBA, not Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori. Come on dude, stop the childish tantrums.Some variant of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which was associated with Messapi might have been a descended culture from those aforementioned groups.

 

[Excine]

He claims Messapi migrated there, not Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori. Come on dude, stop the childish tantrums.Some variant of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which was associated with Messapi might have been a descended culture from those aforementioned groups.

You fool it is not me who commented this, stop being ignorant and read the comment.

 

[Excine]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26049-Genetic-Origin-of-Albanians&p=871537#post871537

RADIOCARBON DATING THE 3RD MILLENNIUM BC IN THE CENTRAL BALKANS: A RE-EXAMINATION OF THE EARLY BRONZE AGE SEQUENCE

The site of Meanište in Ranutovac was excavated in 2012 prior to the construction of a highway. It is located about 5 km northeast from Vranje, in southeastern Serbia (Bulatovic, Bizjak and Vitezovi´c 2016). The site lies on a slight slope about 600 m from the modern riverbed of the Južna Morava. Together with an Early Iron Age settlement, an Early Bronze Age cemetery was uncovered. The cemetery comprised 21 graves distributed over three separated areas. The graves consisted of circular shallow pits around 0,5 m in diameter, surrounded and covered by stones. Remains of cremated human bones were discovered lying at the bottom of the pits, associated with various vessels, mostly cups. Six samples from different graves were sent for analysis (RICH–24516, RICH–24542, RICH–24543, RICH–24513, RICH–24544, RICH–24514). Pottery grave goods (Figure 3/9–16) belong to the Armenochori group, which is distributed in northwestern Greece, southeastern Albania and southwestern North Macedonia. At present Ranutovac-Meanište marks the northernmost extension of this group

Although based on limited evidence, these results thus suggest that the Armenochori cultural group can be tentatively divided into two partially overlapping phases, and that it is possible to observe an expansion of Armenochori features from central Macedonian region towards the north (Hammond 1972: 240; Bulatovi´c 2014: 68) along the upper stream of the South Morava River (Bulatovi´c 2014: Map 2), the west (Gori 2020) and the south, towards the Chalkidiki Peninsula in its second phase in the last quarter of the 3rd millennium cal BC. The existence of two phases was already hinted at by typological and, in very few cases, stratigraphic evidences (e.g. Sovjan, Albania, Gori 2015a); however, it was never demonstrated with absolute chronological data. The results presented here, therefore, are particularly encouraging. Furthermore, ceramic assemblages suggest some relationship between both Cetina and Armenochori groups. Two-handled beakers from Cetina contexts show a combination of distinctive Cetina decorative traits with Armenochori typological features (e.g. double-handled vessels from Juki´c; Oluji´c 2012: Pl. 8; Bajagic; Govedarica 1989: Pl. XLVI/2; and Shtoj; Govedarica 1989: Pl. XXIX/1). Likewise, several vases found in Armenochori sites present features echoing Cetina and wider Aegean traditions (e.g. the pedestal-footed vessel from grave 2 at Ranutovac; Bulatovic et al. 2016: Pl. I/5 that compares to Cetina examples from tumulus 2 at Shkrel, Albania Jubani 1995; Maran 2007: 15; Gori 2020)

By placing Proto-Albanians in Armenochori group, Matzinger without even wanting to claims that Proto-Albanian was spoken in Albania in the ... Late EBA/early MBA. By further claiming that Armenochori somehow moved to Dalmatia based on some common features in pottery, he's claiming that several Cetina-related sites in Albania also have Armenochori elements.

It's evident for me that when Matzinger first claimed that Albanian should be placed somewhere towards the central Balkans, the Armenochori group next to Korça wasn't what he had in mind. The conditions of aDNA research forced him to try to find a region which would maaaybe allow him both to keep his theory and to "reconcile" it with the aDNA data.

 

[Hawk]

I think there might have been some branches in central balkans, but the latest paper has me confused tbh about ev13.

Yeah, i agree. But the paper somehow is super-weird on conclusions and samples (too low coverage). Anyway, as always more samples are welcome.

 

[Johane Derite]

AFAIK, He claims Messapi migrated there or Proto-Messapi from LBA, not Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori. Come on dude, stop the childish tantrums.Some variant of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which was associated with Messapi might have been a descended culture from those aforementioned groups.

I think that is a pretty interesting vector, and it makes sense.

 

[johen]

@Johane Derite
sorry, it is off topic.
Is this illyrian symbol or albaian tatoo?

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/375769162640083970/

 

[Excine]

AFAIK, He claims Messapi migrated there or Proto-Messapi from LBA, not Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori. Come on dude, stop the childish tantrums.Some variant of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which was associated with Messapi might have been a descended culture from those aforementioned groups.

Matzinger said that "Proto-Albanians and Proto-Messapians moved farther to the north. The latter should have joined by that time the already very mixed Cetina culture complex at the Dalmatian coast around 1700 BCE" so we're not talking about anyone in the LBA and the area refers to that of Armenochori. It's quite obvious however that if Armenochori + Cetina = Iapygians in Dalmatia then the same process happened in Albania too, so I'm not sure that Matzinger actually realized how this will backfire in his arguments.

 

[Hawk]

Matzinger said that "Proto-Albanians and Proto-Messapians moved farther to the north. The latter should have joined by that time the already very mixed Cetina culture complex at the Dalmatian coast around 1700 BCE" so we're not talking about anyone in the LBA and the area refers to that of Armenochori. It's quite obvious however that if Armenochori + Cetina = Iapygians in Dalmatia then the same process happened in Albania too, so I'm not sure that Matzinger actually realized how this will backfire in his arguments.

Did he mention specifically Cetina or you are just making the assumption by yourself? I guess Derite might have spotted this.

 

[Excine]

Of course also present in the lecture were Iosif Lazaridis, David Anthony, and some other major names in linguistics and genetics, so the fact that Albanian is not Ilyrian will be the major consensus among the forefront of current academia.

Do you even have any idea what you're talking about? Reich-Lazaridis argue the opposite of Matzinger about Armenian and Albanians. They say that Armenian spread from the steppe to eastern Anatolia/Caucasus not from the Balkans and they argue for population continuity in Albania since the MBA.

Matzinger said that Armenian came from the Balkans and when someone from the audience asked about it he had nothing to answer!

This is embarrassing. You've reached the point where you're grasping at straws to find any sort of support.

Will you publish any Carpian theories now? What about the mighty Gava culture from the Carpathians and "Proto-Albanoid"??

See I don't mind the disagreement but I have a big problem with the fact that for 2 years now you're propagating constantly stuff about "Gava culture" and now suddenly you're acting as if it doesn't exist. Own up to your own claims and admit that what you propagated is completely wrong. Do that at least.

 

[Excine]

Did he mention specifically Cetina or you are just making the assumption by yourself? I guess Derite might have spotted this.

This is the actual sentence "Proto-Albanians and Proto-Messapians moved farther to the north. The latter should have joined by that time the already very mixed Cetina culture complex at the Dalmatian coast around 1700 BCE" It's clear as day.

 

[Hawk]

Do you even have any idea what you're talking about? Reich-Lazaridis argue the opposite of Matzinger about Armenian and Albanians. They say that Armenian spread from the steppe to eastern Anatolia/Caucasus not from the Balkans and they argue for population continuity in Albania since the MBA.

Matzinger said that Armenian came from the Balkans and when someone from the audience asked about it he had nothing to answer!

This is embarrassing. You've reached the point where you're grasping at straws to find any sort of support.

Will you publish any Carpian theories now? What about the mighty Gava culture from the Carpathians and "Proto-Albanoid"??

See I don't mind the disagreement but I have a big problem with the fact that for 2 years now you're propagating constantly stuff about "Gava culture" and now suddenly you're acting as if it doesn't exist. Own up to your own claims and admit that what you propagated is completely wrong. Do that at least.

You seem to act quite suspicious for someone claiming to be E-V13. The behavioural patterns aren't just right..

This is the actual sentence "Proto-Albanians and Proto-Messapians moved farther to the north. The latter should have joined by that time the already very mixed Cetina culture complex at the Dalmatian coast around 1700 BCE" It's clear as day.

Do you have a screenshot, quote for this part? It still clearly states and differentiates the languages, no need for further complications. The vector via Matt-Painted Pottery Culture still makes more sense. But, it's a gray zone of archaeology, this part.

 

[1337_]

Watch out...He's now gonna say you're someone's sock.

 

[Excine]

You seem to act quite suspicious for someone claiming to be E-V13. The behavioural patterns aren't just right..



Do you have a screenshot, quote for this part? It still clearly states and differentiates the languages, no need for further complications. The vector via Matt-Painted Pottery Culture still makes more sense. But, it's a gray zone of archaeology, this part.

What does this have to with E-V13? Even with its mistakes and distortions I believe that this presentation strengthened a case for E-V13 in Proto-Albanians, it didn't weaken it. What's degrading is that some people here forever couldn't believe that E-V13 could be part of any significant native Balkan Bronze Age group so they constantly moved it to the "deep mountains of nowhere". Come on man move beyond haplogroupism and see things for what they are.

He says it when he was presenting the slide where he shows Proto-Messapians and Proto-Albanians moving to the north, it's not in a separate slide. Ask Derite to send you the clip or audio, otherwise I'll send it to you when I upload my recording. The sentence continues as follows: "there is a clear connection between the Middle Dalmatia coast ..... and the Italian Gargano area". Matzinger seems to exclude Albania entirely from

 

[broder]

Jesus Hawk, you really are paranoid - maybe even borderline schizophrenic. Talking about Haplogroup personality traits now. Just over a page ago you were insinuating, again, how some of us associated with the Albo projects have biases toward V13.

Leave that sh*t at home man and stop ruining every freaking thread.