Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

There were no Illyrians in 1700 BC. In dalmatia in 1700 BC there were proto-albanian speakers. Later in the 6th century BC greeks would meet these proto-albanians speakers and call them Illyrians.
That's what Matzinger is trying to say i think.
Jo, nuk është kështu. Ta shpjegon shumë qartë ky tipi Johane më poshtë. Unë do të shpjegoj me pak fjalë lojën që luhet. Kjo është një lojë e vjetër që po zhvillohet sërish dhe që ka për qëllim shfarrosjen e Shqiptarëve. Ke dëgjuar për njëfarë N.G.L.Hammond? Konsiderohet sot si një studiues i madh. Ka qenë një bandit. Ka qenë krahu i djathtë i një banditi tjetër, Christopher Woodhouse. Lexo pak:
First expulsion[edit]

Main article: Expulsion of Cham Albanians
During the summer of 1944, the head of the local resistance organization, Napoleon Zervas, asked the Cham Albanians to join EDES in its fight against the left-wing ELAS, but their response was negative.[107] After that and in accordance to orders given specifically to EDES by the Allied forces to push them out of the area, fierce fighting occurred between the two sides.[107] According to British reports, the Cham collaborationist bands managed to flee to Albania with all of their equipment, together with half million stolen cattle as well as 3,000 horses, leaving only the elderly members of the community behind.[188] On 18 June 1944, EDES forces with Allied support launched an attack on Paramythia. After short-term conflict against a combined Cham-German garrison, the town was finally under Allied command. Soon after, violent reprisals were carried out against the town's Muslim community,[56] which was considered responsible for the massacre of September 1943.[188]
Moreover, two attacks took place in July and August with the participation of EDES Tenth Division and the local Greek peasants, eager to gain revenge for the burning of their own homes.[107] According to Cham claims, which are not confirmed by British reports,[188] the most infamous massacre of Albanian Muslims by Greek irregulars occurred on 27 June 1944 in the district of Paramithia, when this forces captured the town, killing approximately 600 Muslim Chams, men women and children, many having been raped and tortured before death.[56] British officers described it as "a most disgraceful affair involving an orgy of revenge with the local guerrillas looting and wantonly destroying everything". British Foreign Office reported that "The bishop of Paramythia joined in the searching of houses for booty and came out of one house to find his already heavily laden mule had been meanwhile stripped by some andartes".[107]
On the other hand Chris Woodhouse, the head of the Allied Military Mission in Greece during the Axis occupation, who was present in the area at the time, officially accepted the full responsibility of the decision for the expulsion of the Chams although he criticized the vendetta way in which this was carried out; including in his "Note on the Chams" military report of 16 October 1945 a brief description of the situation that led to the Paramythia events: "Chams are racially part Turk, part Albanian, part Greek. In 1941-3 they collaborated with Italians, making the organization of guerilla resistance in that area difficult. I never heard of any of them taking part in any resistance against enemy. Zervas encouraged by the Allied Mission under myself, chased them out of their homes in 1944 in order to facilitate operations against the enemy. They mostly took refuge in Albania, where they were not popular either. Their eviction from Greece was bloodily carried out, owing to the usual vendetta spirit, which was fed by many brutalities committed by the Chams in league with the Italians. Zervas' work was completed by an inexcusable massacre of Chams in Philliates in March 1945, carried out by remnants of Zervas' dissolved forces under Zotos. The Chams deserved what they got, but Zervas' methods were pretty bad – or rather, his subordinate officers got out of hand. The result has been in effect a shift of populations, removing an unwanted minority from Greek soil. Perhaps it would be best to leave things at that."(PRO/FO,371/48094).[56] During this time, small numbers of Muslim Roma from Filiates also fled to Albania alongside the Muslim Chams.[189] They settled in village of Shkallë, near Sarandë, where due to immigration in recent years, some have resettled in Greece.[189]
Po këta nuk janë koka e kësaj pune. Do të dish kokën? Atëherë më lejo që të prezantoj me të, Arnold J. Toynbee.
Ky nuk është një historian si Hammond, ky është nona, ky është the Historian ose kryebanditi. Lexo:
main-qimg-4427f7a9bc2976046f1e4bea8c148a00

main-qimg-2b66d28ccc344e5e7d0c54c40db41f8f


Source: https://archive.org/details/FromTheAnnalsOfBritishDiplomacy/mode/2up
Ç'punë ka ky që merret me maskarallëqe të tilla? A është ky dhe të tjerët si ky, Hammond përshembull studiues apo janë banditë që merren me shfarrosje kombesh?
Mbas kësaj hyrje do të shpjegpj se si funksionon skema e lojës sepse Mantziker nuk ka shpikur diçka të re, thjesht po kopjon nga këta profesorët që përmenda më lartë. Në rast se lexon librin e Hammond "Migration in Greece and adjacent areas" ndërmjet të tjerash do vësh re se si ai gjithmonë këmbëngul që Shqiptarët nuk janë vendas në Epir. Dhe e dyta ai në shkëmbim na bën qejfin dhe thotë që Shqiptarët në Jugosllavi janë vendas. Mantziker ka kaluar në një nivel tjetër. Mbasi me metodat e tyre banditeske ju mohuan Shqiptarëve autoktoninë në Epir pra Toskëri, Mantzinger po kërkon që të na mohojë autoktoninë në territorin mbi Shkumbin pra në Veri ose Gegëri dhe ta transferojë djepin e etogjenezës së kombit Shqiptar akoma edhe më në lindje. Pra, teoria ka dy pika, e para ne nuk jemi vendas në Shqipëri dhe e dyta sipas këtij banditi dhe sipas këtij pamfillos Johane dhe këtij karagjozit që i shkon nga pas origjina jonë është diku nga jugu i Serbisë së sotshme, Bullgaria, etj. Qëllimi është që Shqiptarët ta pranojnë këtë histori, pra ta pranojnë që kjo tokë nuk është atdheu ynë i origjinës. Dhe mbasi ne ta kemi pranuar këtë teori, tërë qejf, Johane dhe kompani do tentojnë të tregojnë përrallën e tyre dardane(nëse janë vërtetë naivë dhe e besojnë). Në atë moment do tu thuhet që është e vërtetë tashmë që origjina juaj nuk është nga Shqipëria sepse ju e keni pranuar këtë gjë. Së nga jeni ju Shqiptarët kjo mbetet për tu zbuluar në të ardhmen. Dhe me siguri do na degdisin në Kaukaz! Do thuash ti po kush ishin banorët e Albanopolis. Ja kanë gjetur anën dhe kësaj. Ata ishin....Vllehë. Pra ne jo vetëm që jemi të ardhur nga nuk dihet se ku në këto troje por në u paskemi grabitur, veç të tjerash edhe identitetin etnik një popullsie tjetër. Mjafton sa të hapet loja se teoritë pastaj janë pa fund. Tom Winnifrith është ndoshta i vetmi studiues britanik që ka formuluar togëfjalëshin Ilirë në Epir. Por për të këta Ilirë janë paraardhës të Vllehëve dhe ai vet ishte një Vllah. Kur kemi qenë të vegjël luanim një lojë, 5 fëmijë këndonin dhe kërcenin rreth 4 karrigeve. Në momentin që ndalon kënga fëmijët vrapojnë dhe secili përpiqet të ulet në karrige. Kuptohet që nga që është një karrige mangut, njëri mbetet në këmbë. Këta maskarenj kërkojnë të na lënë në këmbë dhe pa atdhe neve që mund të jemi një nga kombet më të vjetër në mos më i vjetri i kontinentit.
Tani do të prezantoj me një studiues tjetër, më një serb Jovan Cvijić. Lexo pak:
Jovan Cvijić (Serbian Cyrillic: Јован Цвијић, pronounced [jǒʋan tsʋǐːjitɕ]; 11 October [O.S. 29 September] 1865 – 16 January 1927) was a Serbian geographer[2] and ethnologist, president of the Serbian Royal Academy of Sciences and rector of the University of Belgrade. Cvijić is considered the founder of geography in Serbia. He began his scientific career as a geographer and geologist, and continued his activity as a human geographer and sociologist.
Pra siç e shikon njëri nga studiuesit më të mëdhenj Serb. Vazhdojmë më tej:
Influence on Yugoslav state borders[edit]

After the conclusion of World War I, Cvijić was invited to the Paris Peace Conference as an expert on border delineation.[15] Using ethnographic charts, Cvijić demonstrated the geographical distribution of the various Balkan peoples which helped determine the borders of a new country: the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.[16] It was agreed that the new country should incorporate Banat, Bačka, Baranya and Carniola as well as the Bled triangle (Bled, Bohinj and Triglav).[citation needed].....
.....In 1915 he lectured about the Balkans at Sorbonne University in Paris.[3]...
...Territorial expansion[edit]

Cvijić' s scientific impartiality has been criticized for his support of Serbia's political advancement;[17] his geographic work was used to scientifically justify politics of territorial expansion and further territorial claims.[17]
... For economic independence, Serbia must acquire access to the Adriatic Sea and one part of the Albanian coastline: by occupation of the territory or by acquiring economic and transportation rights to this region. This, therefore, implies occupying an ethnographically foreign territory, but one that must be occupied due to particularly important economic interests and vital needs.[17]
Çfarë pensionesh jepte ky në Sorbonë në Paris? Ndërmjet të tjerash ky zotëri është autor i një libri me titull:
The Geographical Distribution of the Balkan Peoples
Çfarë thotë ky në këtë libër?
main-qimg-a8008d9a6dc786ed323579167580fa3f

Pra ky shkonte në Sorbonë dhe thoshte ato gjëra që ti lexon dhe nga ana tjetër shkonte në Konferencën e Paqes dhe kërkonte dalje në Adriatik. Ky më parë e priste dorën se sa i shkruante ato gjëra por nuk kishte çfarë të bënte, nuk mund të dilte kundër fakteve historike. Ai ka shkruajtur ekzaktësisht atë që në kemi quajtur veten tonë gjatë historisë dhe gjithashtu të huajtë kështu na kanë thirrur gjithmonë. Deri sa në skenë hynë banditët që të përshkrova më lartë të cilët duhet të justifikonin në mënyrë shkencore grabitjen e trojeve Shqiptare dhe genocidin ndaj Kombit Shqiptar dhe këta dy qurravecët që i thonë edhe vetes Shqiptarë.
 
Jesus Hawk, you really are paranoid - maybe even borderline schizophrenic. Talking about Haplogroup personality traits now. Just over a page ago you were insinuating, again, how some of us associated with the Albo projects have biases toward V13.

Leave that sh*t at home man and stop ruining every freaking thread.

Ah yeah here you come with some nasty insults.

And who was talking about haplogroup personality traits lol? This shit is someone elses spewing for years.
 
I have to applaud user Excine. Unlike some around these foras, he has consistently shown that his opinions are not influenced by what haplogroup he belongs to. He sees things as they are, and without trying to "diminish" other haplos.

As for the most recent paper/presentation, yet again we have Albanian and Messapic as deriving from a common (proto) language, and in the case of Albanian, its origins should not be sought further away than central Balkans at best.
 
Ah yeah here you come with some nasty insults.

And who was talking about haplogroup personality traits lol? This shit is someone elses spewing for years.

What else can I say to you when you repeat the same nonsense over and over in almost every topic?
 
Munesh me palu pidhin. At munesh me bo.
Alright then, my previous post was well deserved. And I will put you on your place every time you spew horseshit.
 
I have to applaud user Excine. Unlike some around these foras, he has consistently shown that his opinions are not influenced by what haplogroup he belongs to. He sees things as they are, and without trying to "diminish" other haplos.
As for the most recent paper/presentation, yet again we have Albanian and Messapic as deriving from a common (proto) language, and in the case of Albanian, its origins should not be sought further away than central Balkans at best.


Thanks Trojet, it means a great deal, especially coming from a committed user like yourself who is striving to go deeply into the Albanian Y-DNA. Kudos for always remaining honest.
 
Alright then, my previous post was well deserved. And I will put you on your place every time you spew horseshit.

Lol, you putting me on place? Get off your delusions dude. You are simply pissed off it didn't went your way you envisioned.
 
Lol, you putting me on place? Get off your delusions dude. You are simply pissed off it didn't went your way you envisioned.

Do I seem pissed off? And what way was that? I am actually vindicated as far as Illyrian goes. My opinion was that both Illyrian and Albanian are Yamnaya derived, regardless if they are related or not.

You have forgotten our exchange on anthrogenica where you chimped out on me when we were discussing Urnfielders? Precisely related to this topic lmao
 
AFAIK, He claims Messapi migrated there or Proto-Messapi from LBA, not Bubanj-Hum or Armenochori.

Some variant of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture which was associated with Messapi might have been a descended culture from those aforementioned groups.
His proposal of a fusion of "proto-Messapians" and Cetina would need further archaeogenetic attestation, albeit there is evidence at least for a small scale fusion of Illyrians and Paeonians to the very East of Albania. But generally what I think needs to be pointed out is that the J2b-L283 Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian migration off shoots in the West Adriatic were found in Daunians (clearly merged with Italics, and there was enough time for that), and one sample from a rather Paucetian area. I am aware of the fact that the Messapians are too grouped with them under the broader term Iapygians, a term highly likely Illyrian in origin. But perhaps the Messapians from the South are very much different? Who knows. As far as I can tell the similarities between Messapian and Albanian are also rather of a vocabulary basis and not structural, which I think would be needed to say anything conclusive such as stated in those presentation slides. Messapian being a proposed language that would have existed in the very South East of mainland Italy is scarcely transmitted, and that really does not help such bold statements either. One could easily argue that what supposedly connects Messapian vocabulary to Albanian are Illyrian words that have survived in Albanian.

A place where a fusion of Paeonian/Bryges/"Proto-Albanian" like population with Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture could have happened would be Illyrian/Paeonian border regions (Eastern/Central Albania).

Nonetheless let's see what south of Daunians and Paucetians will be found.
 
Matzinger said that "Proto-Albanians and Proto-Messapians moved farther to the north. The latter should have joined by that time the already very mixed Cetina culture complex at the Dalmatian coast around 1700 BCE" so we're not talking about anyone in the LBA and the area refers to that of Armenochori. It's quite obvious however that if Armenochori + Cetina = Iapygians in Dalmatia then the same process happened in Albania too, so I'm not sure that Matzinger actually realized how this will backfire in his arguments.
so you believe the Iapygian came from Dalmatia ............they where not Dalmatians
 
Do I seem pissed off? And what way was that? I am actually vindicated as far as Illyrian goes. My opinion was that both Illyrian and Albanian are Yamnaya derived, regardless if they are related or not.

You have forgotten our exchange on anthrogenica where you chimped out on me when we were discussing Urnfielders? Precisely related to this topic lmao

Lol, and you made the guess of the century i guess. A guess which was on the option list of almost every member.

The whole point here is that you have a freak obsessed with E-V13 thread constantly spamming like programmed AI and nobody says anything to him. And Derite being charged just because he shares something they don't like. Too obvious.
 
Lol, and you made the guess of the century i guess. A guess which was on the option list of almost every member.

The whole point here is that you have a freak obsessed with E-V13 thread constantly spamming like programmed AI and nobody says anything to him. And Derite being charged just because he shares something they don't like. Too obvious.

And what does that have to do with us?

In all honesty Riverman is more annoying and he is in every Albanian thread. Guy was even theorizing that most of our V13 came with Slavs. I didn’t see anyone else counter his argument besides Bruzmi.
 
And what does that have to do with us?

In all honesty Riverman is more annoying and he is in every Albanian thread. Guy was even theorizing that most of our V13 came with Slavs. I didn’t see anyone else counter his argument besides Bruzmi.

I highly doubt Riverman said so. Perhaps for some specific subclade. Despite that, i consider Riverman as a member of integrity and one of the most knowledgeable, when he is wrong he will admit so. Qualities not shared by your minion you mentioned.
 
I highly doubt Riverman said so. Perhaps for some specific subclade. Despite that, i consider Riverman as a member of integrity and one of the most knowledgeable, when he is wrong he will admit so. Qualities not shared by your minion you mentioned.

Don’t remember the thread now where but rafc suggested it first, and then he jumped in and fully supported his opinion.
 
To me it really looks like initially somewhere in Kosovo/Central Balkans some E-V13 tribes might have interwinged and formed the initial Proto-Albanoids? Or you think all E-V13 are simply Daco-Thracians?

Early Albanian without R1b-Z2103 is impossible. I'll leave the linguistic argument aside, none of us can offer a how and why, is Albanian a R1b-Z2103 language that was under heavy Daco-Thracian influence, or a merger of both(unlikely, there is always one dominant group). It's hard to envision how R1b-Z2103 imposed their language on the E-V13, but it does look that way. The Albanian branches of R1b-Z2103 are consistently dated around 600 AD. The merger of the two haplogroups can go back to the Iron Age, hopefully such samples from western Bulgaria and historical Dardania are under way.
 
Early Albanian without R1b-Z2103 is impossible. I'll leave the linguistic argument aside, none of us can offer a how and why, is Albanian a R1b-Z2103 language that was under heavy Daco-Thracian influence, or a merger of both(unlikely, there is always one dominant group). It's hard to envision how R1b-Z2103 imposed their language on the E-V13, but it does look that way. The Albanian branches of R1b-Z2103 are consistently dated around 600 AD. The merger of the two haplogroups can go back to the Iron Age, hopefully such samples from western Bulgaria and historical Dardania are under way.

Have you even read anything about this presentation? Dacians and Thracians are exclusively rejected even by Matzinger. It's so desperate that you people are still even after all that has been published still trying to displace Albanians outside the western Balkans. After all of this you still try to ignore everything and keep spreading fake and fringe theories.
 
Have you even read anything about this presentation? Dacians and Thracians are exclusively rejected even by Matzinger. It's so desperate that you people are still even after all that has been published still trying to displace Albanians outside the western Balkans. After all of this you still try to ignore everything and keep spreading fake and fringe theories.

How do you explain E-V13 among Albanians? Go ahead, but don't put me theories like broder who is the typical guy who sits on the corner of the couch and waits with a beer on his hand until all the work is done, when it's done he yells i told you so, i was right.

Give at least an explanation, no matter even if you are wrong or right.
 
Don’t remember the thread now where but rafc suggested it first, and then he jumped in and fully supported his opinion.

In the E-V13, J-L283 and Albanian origins thread, this same crowd has claimed that 1. Albanian E-V13 also comes from Slavs 2. E-V13 in Albanians comes from Vlachs 3. J-L283 is Celtic (Trojet can confirm many cases where one of them will try to insinuate a Celtic connection) 3. J-L283 is not Illyrian, it's something else 4. Albanians have high Slavic admixture and hundreds of other weekly cases where someone will try again and again to attack Albanians, to make weird claims about their main haplogroups, to claim that Albanians have high Slavic admixture. All of these matters have been answered and clarified by just a few people against all constant anti-Albanian attacks. They defended Cetina as Illyrian (credits to Trojet who first said it years ago) when some other people here were siding with others who simply didn't want Cetina to be Illyrian because they didn't J-L283 to be present in a major archaeological culture. If somebody here thinks that such people didn't want Cetina to be J-L283 because they care about the ethnogenesis of Illyrians, you simply can't understand what is happening around you.

They are the same people who some other Albanians (?) are attacking here daily just because they don't call their haplogroup the greatest that has ever existed or because they don't subscribe to the more and more ludicrous idea that tries to disconnect Albanians from Illyrians. Some people here prefer to just attack other Albanians simply out of spite because they stand up to anti-Albanian propaganda, while they themselves have never done a single thing even when they were in anthrogenica and weren't banned there.

What exactly does the crowd here think that they're doing? They're mostly parroting fringe theories, anti-Albanian propaganda (many anti-Albanian nationalists are very happy when they read Johane Derite, Paleo-Revenge and the "neo-Illyrian" (lol) ) and attacking Albanians who stand up to BS about us.
Do you guys even understand what 99% of Albanians would have to say about your behavior?
 
Jo, nuk është kështu. Ta shpjegon shumë qartë ky tipi Johane më poshtë. Unë do të shpjegoj me pak fjalë lojën që luhet. Kjo është një lojë e vjetër që po zhvillohet sërish dhe që ka për qëllim shfarrosjen e Shqiptarëve. Ke dëgjuar për njëfarë N.G.L.Hammond? Konsiderohet sot si një studiues i madh. Ka qenë një bandit. Ka qenë krahu i djathtë i një banditi tjetër, Christopher Woodhouse.

E kam parasysh Hammond dhe paralelizmin me Matzinger ku atë pak integritet e vënë në përdorim për propagandë inkoherente dhe të mangët në argumenta.
Psh Hammon ka shkruar 15 faqe për të na mbush mendjen se fisi ilir Atintani i raportuar nga Appiani skishte lidhje me fisin epirot Atintanes të Strabos.
 

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