Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

This is a map of Southeast-Dalmatian and llyrian anthroponymy that Matzinger made, which he argues is the extent of the "Illyrian language" proper.

He is saying that the southeast regiojs of dalmatia linguistically fit into the onomasrics of illyria proper.

another rubbish map which means zero...........

he needs to understand the oldest proto-albanian is from Dardanians ( kosovo lands )

 

[Southpaw]

Excine, i asked you a question, stop pretending you didn't saw it: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-VIDEO/page118?p=657285&viewfull=1#post657285

Why you are so dull and completely like a ghost to people who insult your "personal lineage", and go cold-turkey for J2b2-L283 without even anyone insulting them or anything?

 

[mount123]

This is a map of Southeast-Dalmatian and llyrian anthroponymy that Matzinger made, which he argues is the extent of the "Illyrian language" proper.

He is saying that the southeast regiojs of dalmatia linguistically fit into the onomasrics of illyria proper.

He is basing it on Katicic and I think given the archeological and genetic landscape that it does not make sense, albeit not entirely. The proposed SE Dalmatian anthroponymy map is a clear exaggeration given the before mentioned aspects. It could only make sense if Paeonians/Bryges etc. never existed. But that is obviously not the case. If it was basing it on Illyrian lexical "influence" beyond its core region, then that would be a rather (not even that) correct statement.

His proposal of a fusion of "proto-Messapians" and Cetina would need further archaeogenetic attestation, albeit there is evidence at least for a small scale fusion of Illyrians and Paeonians to the very East of Albania. But generally what I think needs to be pointed out is that the J2b-L283 Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian migration off shoots in the West Adriatic were found in Daunians (clearly merged with Italics, and there was enough time for that), and one sample from a rather Peucetian area. I am aware of the fact that the Messapians are too grouped with them under the broader term Iapygians, a term highly likely Illyrian in origin. But perhaps the Messapians from the South are very much different? Who knows. As far as I can tell the similarities between Messapian and Albanian are also rather of a vocabulary basis and not structural, which I think would be needed to say anything conclusive such as stated in those presentation slides. Messapian being a proposed language that would have existed in the very South East of mainland Italy is scarcely transmitted, and that really does not help such bold statements either. One could easily argue that what supposedly connects Messapian vocabulary to Albanian are Illyrian words that have survived in Albanian.

A place where a fusion of Paeonian/Bryges/"Proto-Albanian" like population with Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture could have happened would be Illyrian/Paeonian border regions (Eastern/Central Albania).

Nonetheless let's see what south of Daunians and Peucetians will be found.

I am not sure what to think of Matzinger's proposal but the above is my general standpoint in this regard. Says everything I wanted to mention, but once again: the J2b-L283 samples are still from Daunian and Peucetian areas, as of right now.

Also, in what parallel universe do samples from North East Slavonia, bordering Hungary and Serbia, have anything to do with J2b-L283 Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture??? Since I have seen a particular she repeating this non sense all the time. Source is Bruzmi/Maleschreiber's Wikipedia edit cool cool cool

 

[Johane Derite]

He is basing it on Katicic and I think given the archeological and genetic landscape that it does not make sense, albeit not entirely. The proposed SE Dalmatian anthroponymy map is a clear exaggeration given the before mentioned aspects. It could only make sense if Paeonians/Bryges etc. never existed. But that is obviously not the case. If it was basing it on Illyrian lexical "influence" beyond its core region, then that would be a rather (not even that) correct statement.


I am not sure what to think of Matzinger's proposal but the above is my general standpoint in this regard. Says everything I wanted to mention, but once again: the J2b-L283 samples are still from Daunian and Peucetian areas, as of right now.

Also, in what parallel universe do samples from North East Slavonia, bordering Hungary and Serbia, have anything to do with J2b-L283 Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture??? Since I have seen a particular she repeating this non sense all the time. Source is Bruzmi/Maleschreiber's Wikipedia edit cool cool cool

Its based on a mixture of where these names that he as classified as being properly Illyrian occur and the territory of Glasinac-Mati which he argues more or less overlaps with the Illyrian anthroponymic zone.

This map is not exclusive, obviously bryges and paeonians, greeks, dardanians, thracians etc, can also have had influence within this territory, also the eastern edge of this map is not a bold line, but checkered line, to suggest a diffuse border/unclear, etc.

 

[torzio]

There are people mixing dates in this thread in regards to areas

Pyrrhus era

he was born 318BC his father was king of the molossians ( a Epirote tribe )

modern Albania lands was invaded by Cassander a Macedonian who took the cities of Butrint, Appolonia and Durres ..................Pyrrhus sought refuge in the illyrian court of Glacias in modern Montenegro ................at the age of 12 , Glacias appointed Pyrrhus king of the Epirotes.

After Cassander’s death, when his two sons, Antipater and Alexander, fought for the Macedonian throne.

by 285 BC Pyrrhus secured his borders of Epirus ....his kingdom's borders started from today's Durrës, included the entire Epirus and reached as far as Acheloos river NW Greece.

After his demise ,his lands where vassalized by the Macedonian kingdom to only be lost at the start of the 2nd Punic war to the Romans ............................the Romans never gave away their control of these lands until the fall of the Roman empire

 

[Oroku Saki]

He also said that Proto-Thracians would be a BA people who were R-Z2103 and guess what? This is what the study supports. It's a really weird cope to think that a study which explicitly proclaimed Thracians in the Bronze Age Balkans as coming from the steppe somehow said that E-V13 = Thracian.

No, the study supports a successive series of genetic auDNA and Y-DNA replacements with the final replacement wave being E-V13 heavy. And according to various archeologists and linguists being Thracian proper. Pre EIA population of Bulgaria didn't speak Thracian.

Second, linguistics does not support Thracian being R-Z2103 related but rather R1a related. Even if there may be some dissenting opinions, but once some hard facts are brought to the table, it appears Yamnaya having anything to do with Thracians is unlikely.

Speculations of authors are another matter. How many of them still ascribe to I2a Din being a local lineage? Many I believe especially as there are two such "Illyrian" samples..

 

[1337_]

Albanian does show in fact Eastern Latin or Romanian / Vlach similarities but it could be Albanian into Romanian.

The map he posted of Illyrian names is wrong. Albania was inhabited by various Illyrian tribes. Coastal areas of Albania were Romanized

 

[1337_]

No, the study supports a successive series of genetic auDNA and Y-DNA replacements with the final replacement wave being E-V13 heavy. And according to various archeologists and linguists being Thracian proper. Pre EIA population of Bulgaria didn't speak Thracian.

Second, linguistics does not support Thracian being R-Z2103 related but rather R1a related. Even if there may be some dissenting opinions, but once some hard facts are brought to the table, it appears Yamnaya having anything to do with Thracians is unlikely.

Speculations of authors are another matter. How many of them still ascribe to I2a Din being a local lineage? Many I believe especially as there are two such "Illyrian" samples..

Afaik only one i2a din and its probably been messed with

 

[Olti27]

There are people mixing dates in this thread in regards to areas
Pyrrhus era
he was born 318BC his father was king of the molossians ( a Epirote tribe )
modern Albania lands was invaded by Cassander a Macedonian who took the cities of Butrint, Appolonia and Durres ..................Pyrrhus sought refuge in the illyrian court of Glacias in modern Montenegro ................at the age of 12 , Glacias appointed Pyrrhus king of the Epirotes.
After Cassander’s death, when his two sons, Antipater and Alexander, fought for the Macedonian throne.
by 285 BC Pyrrhus secured his borders of Epirus ....his kingdom's borders started from today's Durrës, included the entire Epirus and reached as far as Acheloos river NW Greece.
After his demise ,his lands where vassalized by the Macedonian kingdom to only be lost at the start of the 2nd Punic war to the Romans ............................the Romans never gave away their control of these lands until the fall of the Roman empire

Glaucias and the Taulanti are well attested in classical litterature to have lived in the inland's of Epidamn/Dyrrachium. As a matter of facts in 335 BC, Alexander the Great fought against a coalition of Cleitus (son of dardanian king Bardylis) and Glaucias king of the Taulanti for the control of Pellium a city in Illyria in order to secure the border of Macedonia. Pellium is believed to have been located in the region of Korça/Bilisht (funnily enough near the modern day border Abania-Greece) and controlled the Tsangon pass (modern Çangonj village) one of the two routes connecting Illyria and Macedonia, the other being the via Egnatia over Ohrid. There are other attested Illyrian tribes further south, Bylliones around Bylis and Amantes around Amantia.
I see that in a quite few post you insist on illyirans not living in modern day Albania.
Edit: The Presqop Castle (just south of Tirana) and Dorëzi Castle (between Tirana and Durrës) could have been Taulanti strongholds.

 

[mount123]

No, the study supports a successive series of genetic auDNA and Y-DNA replacements with the final replacement wave being E-V13 heavy. And according to various archeologists and linguists being Thracian proper. Pre EIA population of Bulgaria didn't speak Thracian.

Second, linguistics does not support Thracian being R-Z2103 related but rather R1a related. Even if there may be some dissenting opinions, but once some hard facts are brought to the table, it appears Yamnaya having anything to do with Thracians is unlikely.

Speculations of authors are another matter. How many of them still ascribe to I2a Din being a local lineage? Many I believe especially as there are two such "Illyrian" samples..

Agreed. Apart from the many new ancient samples we got from the Reich affiliated papers all of them should have been radiocarbon dated. This is a no go especially coming from people who are putting all sorts of bold statements out there. I see many Serbs spouting the same non sense now and taking as proof non radiocarbon dated and misdated Slavic samples in order to showcase Slavic autochthony in the Balkans, absolutely laughable. Also, by saying "I2a Din" instead of I-Y3120 you are supporting the issue you were pointing out.

 

[Southpaw]

Glaucias and the Taulanti are well attested in classical litterature to have lived in the inland's of Epidamn/Dyrrachium. As a matter of facts in 335 BC, Alexander the Great fought against a coalition of Cleitus (son of dardanian king Bardylis) and Glaucias king of the Taulanti for the control of Pellium a city in Illyria in order to secure the border of Macedonia. Pellium is believed to have been located in the region of Korça/Bilisht (funnily enough near the modern day border Abania-Greece) and controlled the Tsangon pass (modern Çangonj village) one of the two routes connecting Illyria and Macedonia, the other being the via Egnatia over Ohrid. There are other attested Illyrian tribes further south, Bylliones around Bylis and Amantes around Amantia.
I see that in a quite few post you insist on illyirans not living in modern day Albania.
Edit: The Presqop Castle (just south of Tirana) and Dorëzi Castle (between Tirana and Durrës) could have been Taulanti strongholds.

Regarding Amantines, something interesting to note, if i am correct, even some very nationalistic "historian" like Elena Kocaqi thinks Amantines were Thracian in origin who lived among Illyrians migrating right after Late Bronze Age (but Kocaqi also thinks Illyrians, Thracians, Trojans had no difference :awesome, this tribe name looks to appear in Eastern Slavonia where we might get E-V13 due to Urnfield influence in that region. In reality they might even predate the formation of Thracian ethnos, but their origin might be classified as so based on name similarities. Who knows.

 

[Olti27]

Regarding Amantines, something interesting to note, if i am correct, even some very nationalistic "historian" like Elena Kocaqi thinks Amantines were Thracian in origin who lived among Illyrians migrating right after Late Bronze Age (but Kocaqi also thinks Illyrians, Thracians, Trojans had no difference :awesome, this tribe name looks to appear in Eastern Slavonia where we might get E-V13 due to Urnfield influence in that region. In reality they might even predate the formation of Thracian ethnos, but their origin might be classified as so based on name similarities. Who knows.

There seems to be two of them, Amantes in Amantia a polis reported to have been located between Apollonia and Orikos, and Amantini in northen Illyria.
Anyhow I would stay away from the likes of Elena Kocaqi.

 

[Olti27]

Its clear that the Messapi proper zones like that of the Kalabri, at the heel of Italy, were the densest with Messapic inscriptions and had the oldest Messapic cities like Oria, etc, and its precisely this region which has a parallel with the
Balkan hinterland Dardanian tribe of the Galabroi.

There is another city Manduria witch some suggest to be explaind by gheg albanian Mandej+Uria meaning beyond or after Uria(ancient name of Oria) in line the description as a frontier post between Messaps and Tarantines.

 

[torzio]

Glaucias and the Taulanti are well attested in classical litterature to have lived in the inland's of Epidamn/Dyrrachium. As a matter of facts in 335 BC, Alexander the Great fought against a coalition of Cleitus (son of dardanian king Bardylis) and Glaucias king of the Taulanti for the control of Pellium a city in Illyria in order to secure the border of Macedonia. Pellium is believed to have been located in the region of Korça/Bilisht (funnily enough near the modern day border Abania-Greece) and controlled the Tsangon pass (modern Çangonj village) one of the two routes connecting Illyria and Macedonia, the other being the via Egnatia over Ohrid. There are other attested Illyrian tribes further south, Bylliones around Bylis and Amantes around Amantia.
I see that in a quite few post you insist on illyirans not living in modern day Albania.
Edit: The Presqop Castle (just south of Tirana) and Dorëzi Castle (between Tirana and Durrës) could have been Taulanti strongholds.

the Taulantii and the Eel people , both went to modern Albania from the area of Budva Montenegro ................was Glaucias still around when Pyrrhus formed his empire ?

Dardania was still in existence.

Teuta strongholds and her rebellion was in modern Montenegro .

The Romans noted zero Illyrians in modern Albania from the time they took the Albania coast and inland from the Macedonians at the start of the 2nd Punic war

Macedonia and Hannibal where allies

 

[kl1ki]

No, the study supports a successive series of genetic auDNA and Y-DNA replacements with the final replacement wave being E-V13 heavy. And according to various archeologists and linguists being Thracian proper. Pre EIA population of Bulgaria didn't speak Thracian.

Second, linguistics does not support Thracian being R-Z2103 related but rather R1a related. Even if there may be some dissenting opinions, but once some hard facts are brought to the table, it appears Yamnaya having anything to do with Thracians is unlikely.

Speculations of authors are another matter. How many of them still ascribe to I2a Din being a local lineage? Many I believe especially as there are two such "Illyrian" samples..

It really says that:

The present study adds further support to the theory by the discovery of ubiquitous ancestry from the steppe in the Bronze Age Balkans [where, indubitably, Indo-European Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian and Illyrian (41) were spoken, including individuals of predominantly steppe ancestry; by documenting the ubiquity of steppe ancestry inBronze and Iron Age Armenia where Armenians first attested and links between Armenia, the steppe, and the Balkans; and by the fur-ther documentation of steppe ancestry in the Aegean (6) during the Mycenaean period when the Greek language is first attested, albeit at lower levels. All ancient and present-day branches of the Indo-European language family can be derived or at least linked to the early Bronze Age Yamnaya pastoralists of the steppe or genetically similar populations.

Thracians in the Bronze Age.

Matzinger in his lecture placed this migration of Thracians in 2600-2500 BC.

 

[kl1ki]

Regarding Amantines, something interesting to note, if i am correct, even some very nationalistic "historian" like Elena Kocaqi thinks Amantines were Thracian in origin who lived among Illyrians migrating right after Late Bronze Age (but Kocaqi also thinks Illyrians, Thracians, Trojans had no difference :awesome, this tribe name looks to appear in Eastern Slavonia where we might get E-V13 due to Urnfield influence in that region. In reality they might even predate the formation of Thracian ethnos, but their origin might be classified as so based on name similarities. Who knows.

Are you now quoting Elena Kocaqi who thinks that Caesar is Illyrian-Trojan-Albanian? lol


The Amantini were an Illyrian tribe in the vicinity of Sirmium. There is a sample from this group:

Distance to: HUN_IA_SyrmianSremGroup:I18259
0.01987289 ALBÇinamak_Anc
0.02262380 HRV_BA
0.02284279 MNE_LBA
0.02605086 HRV_EIA
0.02660368 HRV_Cetina_BA
0.02674534 MKD_Anc
0.02923910 SRB_BA
0.02934967 HRV_MBA
0.02964210 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.02980277 HRV_LIA_La_Tene
0.03029177 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.03152147 HUN_La_Tene
0.03239642 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03248031 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03302279 HRV_IA
0.03434449 ITA_Etruscan
0.03451836 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.03466171 HRV_Anc
0.03516561 ALB_PostMdv
0.03594825 ALB_Mdv
0.03628972 MKD_BA
0.03657524 HRV_IA
0.03702245 SRB_IA
0.03741418 HRV_Bezdanjača_BA

Genetics align themselves perfectly with the ancient sources. They can't be more Illyrian than that.

 

[broder]

No, the study supports a successive series of genetic auDNA and Y-DNA replacements with the final replacement wave being E-V13 heavy. And according to various archeologists and linguists being Thracian proper. Pre EIA population of Bulgaria didn't speak Thracian.

Second, linguistics does not support Thracian being R-Z2103 related but rather R1a related. Even if there may be some dissenting opinions, but once some hard facts are brought to the table, it appears Yamnaya having anything to do with Thracians is unlikely.

Speculations of authors are another matter. How many of them still ascribe to I2a Din being a local lineage? Many I believe especially as there are two such "Illyrian" samples..

Suggesting that Thracian only got there during Iron Age goes hand in hand with the good old theory that south Slavs salivate on ‘Thracian being more closely related to Balto-Slavs than other Paleo Balkan languages’.

I know in your case is just convenient because it fits your V13 narrative. But wishful thinking can only take you so far.

 

[mount123]

Regarding Amantines, something interesting to note, if i am correct, even some very nationalistic "historian" like Elena Kocaqi thinks Amantines were Thracian in origin who lived among Illyrians migrating right after Late Bronze Age (but Kocaqi also thinks Illyrians, Thracians, Trojans had no difference :awesome, this tribe name looks to appear in Eastern Slavonia where we might get E-V13 due to Urnfield influence in that region. In reality they might even predate the formation of Thracian ethnos, but their origin might be classified as so based on name similarities. Who knows.

Hence why Pannonians and alike should not be equated with Illyrians in the first place. And I think you have made very clear with your wording that Elena Kocaqi is a pseudo scientist, unlike a particular she claims, who has twisted your words in one of her posts. Egzona once again quoting her beloved Maleschreiber/Bruzmi's pseudo-scientific Wikipedia edit.

Also, Urnfield being a successor of TC culture is what I also meant to generally entail here:

There is an Illyrian core in both archeology and now also proven by population genetics. I would not equate Pannonians with Illyrians, they are a seperate intermediary group with a strong TC culture derived fundament to their ethnos.

 

[mount123]

Agreed. Apart from the many new ancient samples we got from the Reich affiliated papers all of them should have been radiocarbon dated. This is a no go especially coming from people who are putting all sorts of bold statements out there. I see many Serbs spouting the same non sense now and taking as proof non radiocarbon dated and misdated Slavic samples in order to showcase Slavic autochthony in the Balkans, absolutely laughable. Also, by saying "I2a Din" instead of I-Y3120 you are supporting the issue you were pointing out.

FYI: the non radiocarbon dating is not just restricted on male samples but also female ones. Apart from seeing amateurs using flawed tools such a G25 and based on that making conclusions, all of the averages in regards to West Balkan samples are falsified since they do entail misdated Slavic/"South" Slavic samples which put them further east (and south east).

 

[kl1ki]

Hence why Pannonians and alike should not be equated with Illyrians in the first place. And I think you have made very clear with your wording that Elena Kocaqi is a pseudo scientist, unlike a particular she claims, who has twisted your words in one of her posts. Egzona once again quoting her beloved Maleschreiber/Bruzmi's pseudo-scientific Wikipedia edit.

Also, Urnfield being a successor of TC culture is what I also meant to generally entail here:

There's no such thing as "Pannonians". It's a geographic term and can mean from Illyrian Pannonian to Celtic Pannonian in the north.

The Amantini were an Illyrian tribe. This is what all ancient and modern sources say and what their genetics show.

Are you now just flat out claiming that Illyrians weren't Illyrians with 0 proof?

Distance to: HUN_IA_SyrmianSremGroup:I18259
0.01987289 ALBÇinamak_Anc
0.02262380 HRV_BA
0.02284279 MNE_LBA
0.02605086 HRV_EIA
0.02660368 HRV_Cetina_BA
0.02674534 MKD_Anc
0.02923910 SRB_BA
0.02934967 HRV_MBA
0.02964210 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean
0.02980277 HRV_LIA_La_Tene
0.03029177 HUN_LBA_EIA
0.03152147 HUN_La_Tene
0.03239642 HRV_Pop_CA
0.03248031 GRC_Logkas_MBA
0.03302279 HRV_IA
0.03434449 ITA_Etruscan
0.03451836 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.03466171 HRV_Anc
0.03516561 ALB_PostMdv
0.03594825 ALB_Mdv
0.03628972 MKD_BA
0.03657524 HRV_IA
0.03702245 SRB_IA
0.03741418 HRV_Bezdanjača_BA

Illyrian tribes in the 1st-2nd centuries CE: