Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

From the new Austrian Archaeological & Linguistic book dedicated to the Illyrians:

Matzinger argues that Illyrian descended from the Indo-European "East Alpine Block", which extended from the Eastern Alps of Italy into the Western Balkans,


He argues that the Albanian language is NOT from this group.

'"With regard to the linguistic position of Illyrian, the cautious assumption can therefore be made that it evolved from Indo-European in a prehistoric process that extended from the Eastern Alps to the Western Balkans and which is developmentally different from the Indo-European that became the basis of Greek, on the one hand, and the basis of Thracian and related idioms in the Eastern Balkans, on the other.

Especially the development of the Indo-European Syllabic resonants (*R) to illyr. /ul, ur, um, un/ is quite a crucial indication that Albanian is not a modern continuation of ancient Illyrian, which is discussed in detail in Chapter 17."

I agree with matzinger

 

[enter_tain]

They lived in what was Illyria in Antiquity. But of the two personal names of Albanoi i.e. of people who lived in the late 1st century/early 2nd century AD in Albanopolis, one was definitely Thracian derived, the other was of Phrygian extraction. Which is very unusual but that is the order of things. So they do not appear Illyrian going by the evidence from 1900 years ago.

There is no evidence there was any Albanoi tribe in pre-Roman time. So these Albanoi could have been some settlers from Central Balkans.

There was a location named "Arbon" mentioned in 2nd century BC. But that is not a tribe. And the 6th century Abroi being related to them is just a speculation.

It's not just a matter of "Arbon" being recorded there, but the inhabitants were called Arbonioi. This survived until the middle ages where Albanians called themselves "Arbereshe" (and still do in Italy). The Gheg/Tosk split has unequivocally been proven to pre-date Slavic migrations and happened right where the Albanoi lived. We know Albanian has been spoken there since antiquity.

Keep making up tinfoil theories though. Maybe you can tie Illyrian to Greek since that town was recorded as Albanopolis. It'll fit right in with Matzinger's Delminium Illyrian suffix study. Maybe you can also make Finland a Germanic country, since "land" is a Germanic word.

 

[Hawk]

I mean historians and linguists *


I don't know why people take this Matzinger guy serious at this point. He seems to be the master of creating tin foil hat theories that have no evidence. I suggest to read on Eric Hamp and Albanian.

His theory about ''Undocumented Paleo-Balkan language'' is also hilarious, given that if we for example read Strabo's Geography, he mentions all the people from
Croatia down to Epirus as Illyrian, including the Dardani. There is no mention of any other major Indo-European speakers nor on the Illyrian side or Thracian.

Matzinger, the TIN FOIL HAT MASTER.

Both Matzinger and Lippert are quite respected academics. The former a linguist and the latter an archeologist. This doesn't neccessary mean that whatever he proposes is 100% cemented as truth, but if you disagree with someone you need to bring facts not discredit his research without any fact.

Already in the Early and so more in the Middle amd Late Bronze Aegean ceramics and weapons are imported and imitated. But there is also a strong influrence from the Danubian Urnfield culture. Characteristic for the Late Bronze Age are large hilltop-settlements with wall fortifications. Since that age there is a continuity of the indigene material culture in the Southern Adriatic areas and the new cultural unity has been called Mat-Glasinac-Culture in reference to the North-Albanian river Mat and the tableland of Glasinac in the Herzegovina. In the Early Iron Age (11th - 8th cent. B.C.) the contacts to Greece increase steadily and reach a high level at the end of the Middle Iron Age in the 7th cent. with numerous imports of fine ware, ornaments and offensive as well as defensive arms, just as swords, helmets and greaves.
https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/publ...ia/20181108-symposium-greek-and-roman-albania

We already know who the Early/Middle Bronze Age contributors to Illyrian genesis were. It's yet to see who were the Danubian Urnfielders during Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age. I am interested to know if E-V13 was this contributor or not. Dalmatians seems not to had any E-V13 though from the current data set we have.

 

[Aspurg]

TaktikatEMalet/ShpataEMadhe is a linguist as well. You need to consult with him.

Like that Croat claiming to be an archeologist despite showing zero knowledge on the topic.

That guy is an enemy in my book. He was thanking posts of that vermin, and may have reported me as well.

350 years ago most Albanians (muslim Albanians) considered themselves descendants of Arabs. Centuries before Elsie such tradition was recorded. Even in this tradition it was explained how catholic Albanians were also descendants of Arabs.

It seems this meme is deeply entrenched in subconsciousness of some Albanians, so those Albanians have tried to spread it and degeneratise hg E-V13 = to claim it is not related to IE's. This endeavor has already failed miserably.

 

[Aspurg]

It's not just a matter of "Arbon" being recorded there, but the inhabitants were called Arbonioi. This survived until the middle ages where Albanians called themselves "Arbereshe" (and still do in Italy). The Gheg/Tosk split has unequivocally been proven to pre-date Slavic migrations and happened right where the Albanoi lived. We know Albanian has been spoken there since antiquity.

Keep making up tinfoil theories though. Maybe you can tie Illyrian to Greek since that town was recorded as Albanopolis. It'll fit right in with Matzinger's Delminium Illyrian suffix study. Maybe you can also make Finland a Germanic country, since "land" is a Germanic word.

It has not been proven to pre-date Slavic migrations.

Slavic tribes in Western Balkans such as Serb descended Narentians, Travunians also called themselves by the toponyms they encountered. Likewise proto-Albanian speakers settled near Arbon and called themselves Arbanesh..

But hey you talk about Illyrians and you don't mention the earliest tradition about the origin of Albanians, and meaning of the term "Arnavud".

Evliya Celebi, 1670 about the origins of Albanians
The mausoleum of Jabal-i Alhama, ancestor of the Albanian people. He is buried in a place called ... outside the city of Elbasan. All the Albanians visit his grave, claiming him as their ancestor. Over a long period they have placed large stones on his grave. An account of his life was given in an earlier chapter... Jabal-i Alhama himself was of the Quraysh tribe and a companion of the Holy Prophet. he took part in Muslim expeditions of Tabuk, Uhud, Tabut (?), Khabayr, Badr-i Hunayn. He also fought in other battles and was a courageous Arab chieftain and ghazi who offered the Holy Prophet the heads and tongues of many prisoners. Later, during the caliphate of the blessed Omar, he put out the eye of an Arab sheikh, either willfully or by accident. The Arab sheikh, holding his gouged eye in his hand, went to the blessed Omar and said: "Oh Omar, it is my right under the law of the Holy Prophet to demand they eye of Jabal-i Alhama for my own". They summoned Jabal who, when asked about the matter, replied, "Oh Omar, this is the eye of an Arab of my tribe. I put it out". His confession was recorded in the Shari'a register, and it was ordered that Jabal's eye be put out in accordance with the definitive Koranic verse in the surah "And We prescribed for them a life for a life and an eye for an eye"

Unwilling to comply, on the grounds that "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), Jabal- Alhama fled with his entire clan to the emperor of Byzantium, Heraclius. he settled in Jabaliyya moutnains and that is why these mountains bear his name. When the blessed Omar conquered Jerusalem, Jabal could not remain any longer in that place, so they boarded ships and took refuge with the king of Spain. Jabal-i Alhama was given the mountains of Dukat, Progonat and Frengis in the Albanian regions of Vlora and Delvina to live in, which were under Spanish rule. These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and , mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic. They place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called the mountain of Kurvelesh since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of the Arabs. Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are from the Quraysh..
..

Although Jabal-i Alhama died as a Muslim and was buried at this site according to his last will and testament, some of his descendants intermarried with the treacherous Franks and became Frankish and bookless themselves. The Albanians of Kelmendi, Montenegro and the mountains of Kurvelesh and Progonat became infidels and people without the book. They do battle day and night with the Muslim Albanians, who are their own kinsmen, and take one another prisoner. Many Albanians had abandoned their faith up to the arrival of Mehmed the Conqueror. Later, when the Ottoman Turks took complete control of Shkodra, Ulcinj, bar, Lezha, Durres and Berat, and conquered the fortresses of Elbasan, Vlora and Delvina all of Albania once again converted to Islam. Only the infidels of Kelmendi, Montenegro, Kurvelesh, and some other mountain ranges continue to resist.

....

In short Jabal-i Alhama of the Quraysh tribe is the ancestor of the Albanian people. At the time of the blessed Omar, he populated Albania...


Is there any Albanian here that has mentioned your notable ancestor. Albania was uninhabited prior to Jabal..

 

[Archetype0ne]

It has not been proven to pre-date Slavic migrations.

Slavic tribes in Western Balkans such as Serb descended Narentians, Travunians also called themselves by the toponyms they encountered. Likewise proto-Albanian speakers settled near Arbon and called themselves Arbanesh..

But hey you talk about Illyrians and you don't mention the earliest tradition about the origin of Albanians, and meaning of the term "Arnavud".

Evliya Celebi, 1670 about the origins of Albanians
The mausoleum of Jabal-i Alhama, ancestor of the Albanian people. He is buried in a place called ... outside the city of Elbasan. All the Albanians visit his grave, claiming him as their ancestor. Over a long period they have placed large stones on his grave. An account of his life was given in an earlier chapter... Jabal-i Alhama himself was of the Quraysh tribe and a companion of the Holy Prophet. he took part in Muslim expeditions of Tabuk, Uhud, Tabut (?), Khabayr, Badr-i Hunayn. He also fought in other battles and was a courageous Arab chieftain and ghazi who offered the Holy Prophet the heads and tongues of many prisoners. Later, during the caliphate of the blessed Omar, he put out the eye of an Arab sheikh, either willfully or by accident. The Arab sheikh, holding his gouged eye in his hand, went to the blessed Omar and said: "Oh Omar, it is my right under the law of the Holy Prophet to demand they eye of Jabal-i Alhama for my own". They summoned Jabal who, when asked about the matter, replied, "Oh Omar, this is the eye of an Arab of my tribe. I put it out". His confession was recorded in the Shari'a register, and it was ordered that Jabal's eye be put out in accordance with the definitive Koranic verse in the surah "And We prescribed for them a life for a life and an eye for an eye"

Unwilling to comply, on the grounds that "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), Jabal- Alhama fled with his entire clan to the emperor of Byzantium, Heraclius. he settled in Jabaliyya moutnains and that is why these mountains bear his name. When the blessed Omar conquered Jerusalem, Jabal could not remain any longer in that place, so they boarded ships and took refuge with the king of Spain. Jabal-i Alhama was given the mountains of Dukat, Progonat and Frengis in the Albanian regions of Vlora and Delvina to live in, which were under Spanish rule. These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and , mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic. They place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called the mountain of Kurvelesh since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of the Arabs. Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are from the Quraysh..
..

Although Jabal-i Alhama died as a Muslim and was buried at this site according to his last will and testament, some of his descendants intermarried with the treacherous Franks and became Frankish and bookless themselves. The Albanians of Kelmendi, Montenegro and the mountains of Kurvelesh and Progonat became infidels and people without the book. They do battle day and night with the Muslim Albanians, who are their own kinsmen, and take one another prisoner. Many Albanians had abandoned their faith up to the arrival of Mehmed the Conqueror. Later, when the Ottoman Turks took complete control of Shkodra, Ulcinj, bar, Lezha, Durres and Berat, and conquered the fortresses of Elbasan, Vlora and Delvina all of Albania once again converted to Islam. Only the infidels of Kelmendi, Montenegro, Kurvelesh, and some other mountain ranges continue to resist.

....

In short Jabal-i Alhama of the Quraysh tribe is the ancestor of the Albanian people. At the time of the blessed Omar, he populated Albania...


Is there any Albanian here that has mentioned your notable ancestor. Albania was uninhabited prior to Jabal..

Who hurt you mate?

When you are stressed you show your true colors. As you just did. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Try not to spread stormfront propaganda on Eupedia.

PS: This Celebi guy might have been a weak historian, but he seems to have been a good travel blogger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evliya_Çelebi#Kosovo I am sure you might enjoy this.

Also, relax, no need to feel inferior, IE or not.

 

[Fustan]

Who hurt you mate?
When you are stressed you show your true colors. As you just did. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Try not to spread stormfront propaganda on Eupedia.
PS: This Celebi guy might have been a weak historian, but he seems to have been a good travel blogger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evliya_Çelebi#Kosovo I am sure you might enjoy this.
Also, relax, no need to feel inferior, IE or not.

I think some people finally lost it. The J2b2 findings and the autosomal profile of EV13 showing that he's the same ethnicity as the La Tene J2b2 was the straw. Now we are witnessing a spectacle of coping. It's quite marvelous actually.

 

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger is just following the data and is the most updated linguist dealing both in specialised Albanian and Old Albanian and ancient balkan languages. He is also not alone, this is what is most updated. He would not argue for Messapic-Albanian relations for some sort of agenda, since this language is even more western than Illyrian.

Also his reference here to the Ostalpenblock (East Alpine Block) is based on linguist Peter Anreiter's work, he is just in agreement more or less (but he does say "cautiously").

But this paradigm of Messapic not being Illyrian is interesting (he says that Messapic and Illyrian would have had contacts in the balkan stage though).

According to him Messapic is a typical language of the Balkan IE group like Phrygian, Armenian, Albanian, Thracian, and Greek. The East Alpine Block group is not part of this group but had contacts with it according to him.

Herodotus actually wrote the the Messapians came from Crete:

"§ 7.170 For the story goes that Minos, having come to Sicania, which is now called Sicily, in search of Daidalos, died there by a violent death; and after a time the Cretans, urged thereto by a god, all except the men of Polichne and Praisos, came with a great armament to Sicania and besieged for seven years the city of Camicos, which in my time was occupied by the Agrigentines; and at last not being able either to capture it or to remain before it, because they were hard pressed by famine, they departed and went away.

And when, as they sailed, they came to be off the coast of Iapygia, a great storm seized them and cast them away upon the coast; and their vessels being dashed to pieces, they, since they saw no longer any way of coming to Crete, founded there the city of Hyria; and there they stayed and were changed so that they became instead of Cretans, Messapians of Iapygia, and instead of islanders, dwellers on the mainland: then from the city of Hyria they founded those other settlements which the Tarentines long afterwards endeavoured to destroy and suffer great disaster in that enterprise, so that this in fact proved to be the greatest slaughter of Hellenes that is known to us, and not only of the Tarentines themselves but of those citizens of Rhegion who were compelled by Mikythos the son of Choiros to go to the assistance of the Tarentines, and of whom there were slain in this manner three thousand men: of the Tarentines themselves however, who were slain there, there was no numbering made. This Mikythos, who was a servant of Anaxilaos, had been left by him in charge of Rhegion; and he it was who after being driven out of Rhegion took up his abode at Tegea of the Arcadians and dedicated those many statues at Olympia."

 

[Aspurg]

Who hurt you mate?

When you are stressed you show your true colors. As you just did. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Try not to spread stormfront propaganda on Eupedia.

I am genetically unstressed.

It is no propaganda to show relevant historical facts that at least many Albanians considered themselves descendants of Arabs. Maybe greatgreatgreatgrandfathers of some of you here.

Did he made up that Albanians were visiting the grave of Jabal? I don't think so.

It is how term Shqiptar replaced the Arberesh. Arbanas of Zadar from early 18th century still retained the old designation.

Muslim Albanians forgot who they were and they coined a new term based on a verb "to speak". "Slav" is based on a similar verb.

PS: This Celebi guy might have been a weak historian, but he seems to have been a good travel blogger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evliya_Çelebi#Kosovo I am sure you might enjoy this.

Obviously there might have been some population change by that time. But Albanians became dominant in Kosovo because of migration of the Serbs, 17th century, primarily mid-late 17th century events. Ottoman defters clearly show the picture in 15th, 16th century.

Also, relax, no need to feel inferior, IE or not.

Well Bedouin Arabs are superior to EEF's in my book in most respects. They did after all conquer good part of the world. They eliminated Persia. Their culture was an inspiration to Ottomans who crushed the Balkan peoples, so indirectly Arabs conquered Balkans too. So obviously they were better in many respects than most of the world.

I always respect the conquerors anytime, anywhere.

Of course we can talk about peoples, but individuals count.

I cannot feel inferior because I am superior to vast majority of people, regardless of mine or their origin.

 

[Aspurg]

I think some people finally lost it. The J2b2 findings and the autosomal profile of EV13 showing that he's the same ethnicity as the La Tene J2b2 was the straw. Now we are witnessing a spectacle of coping. It's quite marvelous actually.

autosomal profile of whole SE Europe was similar and Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks were all similar to each other. E-V13 being a proto-Thracian haplogroup has nothing to do whatsoever with a proto-Illyrian hg as proven by aDNA.

They had by now more than 20 different opportunities to be found together in a Balkan IA, BA context they never were, despite them being common in the Balkans. A genetic wall separated them.

Its just some Albanians are butthurt because they are descendants of Bessi who invaded Byzantine Arbanon.

J2b2 people are not "true" Albanians, they are just people assimilated by the R-Z2705 proto-Albanians. And these were (possibly) Dardanian-speakers from the central Balkans.

PS. autosomal profile of earliest V13 finds is more Steppe than Maros culture 4000 years ago, and high Steppe for Gava sample 3000 years ago. V13 got more Southern by mixing with EEF heavy populations along the way.

 

[Hawk]

autosomal profile of whole SE Europe was similar and Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks were all similar to each other. E-V13 being a proto-Thracian haplogroup has nothing to do whatsoever with a proto-Illyrian hg as proven by aDNA.

They had by now more than 20 different opportunities to be found together in a Balkan IA, BA context they never were, despite them being common in the Balkans. A genetic wall separated them.

Its just some Albanians are butthurt because they are descendants of Bessi who invaded Byzantine Arbanon.

J2b2 people are not "true" Albanians, they are just people assimilated by the R-Z2705 proto-Albanians. And these were (possibly) Dardanian-speakers from the central Balkans.

PS. autosomal profile of earliest V13 finds is more Steppe than Maros culture 4000 years ago, and high Steppe for Gava sample 3000 years ago. V13 got more Southern by mixing with EEF heavy populations along the way.

Who is the Bessi and who is the Dardanian-speakers because i got totally confused by your narrative.

 

[Aspurg]

Who is the Bessi and who is the Dardanian-speakers because i got totally confused by your narrative.

Bessi were first registered in Rhodope mountains in Herodotus time, but in 3rd, 4th century AD Bessoi were registered both archeologically and in epitaphs in SE Serbia, NE Macedonia and W. Bulgarian areas.

Dardanian speakers are speakers of the Central Balkan language, descendants of Mediana-Brnjica archeological complex who spoke a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian language.
They most likely correspond to narrative of slavery among Dardanians, the Illyrian elite enslaving the local Dardanian population. In short these were descendants of Dardanians of Troy.

That Shkupi, Nish follow the development within Albanian phonological rules, that Albanian has some Illyrian "Dardanian" (Illyrians cannot be related to Dardanians of Troy they are invaders from the West) lexical influence. Albanians have no maritime vocabulary etc.

So what I am saying R-Z2705 were Dardanian speakers and they joined some proper Bessoi (V13 clades). Bessoi in Late Antiquity occupied eastern Dardania.

And there is one toponym in Eastern Dardania which "might" indicate indeed the fusion of Albanian speakers with Illyrians from Dardania.

 

[Johane Derite]

But hey you talk about Illyrians and you don't mention the earliest tradition about the origin of Albanians, and meaning of the term "Arnavud".

Evliya Celebi, 1670 about the origins of Albanians
The mausoleum of Jabal-i Alhama, ancestor of the Albanian people. He is buried in a place called ... outside the city of Elbasan. All the Albanians visit his grave, claiming him as their ancestor. Over a long period they have placed large stones on his grave. An account of his life was given in an earlier chapter... Jabal-i Alhama himself was of the Quraysh tribe and a companion of the Holy Prophet. he took part in Muslim expeditions of Tabuk, Uhud, Tabut (?), Khabayr, Badr-i Hunayn. He also fought in other battles and was a courageous Arab chieftain and ghazi who offered the Holy Prophet the heads and tongues of many prisoners. Later, during the caliphate of the blessed Omar, he put out the eye of an Arab sheikh, either willfully or by accident. The Arab sheikh, holding his gouged eye in his hand, went to the blessed Omar and said: "Oh Omar, it is my right under the law of the Holy Prophet to demand they eye of Jabal-i Alhama for my own". They summoned Jabal who, when asked about the matter, replied, "Oh Omar, this is the eye of an Arab of my tribe. I put it out". His confession was recorded in the Shari'a register, and it was ordered that Jabal's eye be put out in accordance with the definitive Koranic verse in the surah "And We prescribed for them a life for a life and an eye for an eye"

Unwilling to comply, on the grounds that "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), Jabal- Alhama fled with his entire clan to the emperor of Byzantium, Heraclius. he settled in Jabaliyya moutnains and that is why these mountains bear his name. When the blessed Omar conquered Jerusalem, Jabal could not remain any longer in that place, so they boarded ships and took refuge with the king of Spain. Jabal-i Alhama was given the mountains of Dukat, Progonat and Frengis in the Albanian regions of Vlora and Delvina to live in, which were under Spanish rule. These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and , mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic. They place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called the mountain of Kurvelesh since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of the Arabs. Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are from the Quraysh..
..

Although Jabal-i Alhama died as a Muslim and was buried at this site according to his last will and testament, some of his descendants intermarried with the treacherous Franks and became Frankish and bookless themselves. The Albanians of Kelmendi, Montenegro and the mountains of Kurvelesh and Progonat became infidels and people without the book. They do battle day and night with the Muslim Albanians, who are their own kinsmen, and take one another prisoner. Many Albanians had abandoned their faith up to the arrival of Mehmed the Conqueror. Later, when the Ottoman Turks took complete control of Shkodra, Ulcinj, bar, Lezha, Durres and Berat, and conquered the fortresses of Elbasan, Vlora and Delvina all of Albania once again converted to Islam. Only the infidels of Kelmendi, Montenegro, Kurvelesh, and some other mountain ranges continue to resist.

....

In short Jabal-i Alhama of the Quraysh tribe is the ancestor of the Albanian people. At the time of the blessed Omar, he populated Albania...


Is there any Albanian here that has mentioned your notable ancestor. Albania was uninhabited prior to Jabal..

There is no such tradition ever recorded among Albanians in any Albanian region. Go try find this Jabal mausoleum, it doesn't exist. This is an ottoman fairy tale.

If there were any even tiny bit of truth to this tradition, it was probably just a misunderstanding by the Ottoman of a local syncretism like the pilgrimage to mountain tops that Bektashi Albanians do to Baba Tomor, which is an ancient pagan rite that was adapted to avoid persecution, and confined to one village or town or such thing. But it is obvious that there is no truth because this entire fairy tale is obviously motivated by two fake folk etymologies.

Literally there is no such tradition of a "Jabal" that existed among Albanians. We know the geneaologies of Albanian tribes all over the north, thousands of ethnographic studies about origins and "Jabal" has never showed up anywhere among any tribe or region, unlike Murr Deti or other mythical figures that shows up among countless tribes.

This tradition is literally totally invented and was not present among any Albanians anywhere. This is a perfect example of how absent your critical thinking skills are. There are Albanian catholic and orthodox communities that have been Christian since the Roman era, taking this type of statement seriously that they believed they descended from a qurayshi arab tribe shows a total idiocy and lack of reasoning. Absolutely unfathomable how stupid this is.

Shqiptar is the ethnonym that ALL Albanians began identifying with, be they from Catholic, Orthodox, Bektashi, whatever. It had nothing to do with this stupid myth or any sort of idea of origin from Arabs or religious affiliation.

Arnavud etymologically has absolutely no relation to that dumb folk etymology. It is just the Turkish mediation of "Arvanite", the Greek name for Albanians.

We can tell this entire myth was made because of stupid folk etymologies, some mountains must have had some name that sounded like Jabal to someone, so they invent a fairytale where some Jabal guy must have named them. The same moronic reasoning is evident in the "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), a stupid story to etymologise Arnavud and some mountain range.

 

[Hawk]

Bessi were first registered in Rhodope mountains in Herodotus time, but in 3rd, 4th century AD Bessoi were registered both archeologically and in epitaphs in SE Serbia, NE Macedonia and W. Bulgarian areas.

Dardanian speakers are speakers of the Central Balkan language, descendants of Mediana-Brnjica archeological complex who spoke a non-Illyrian, non-Thracian language.
They most likely correspond to narrative of slavery among Dardanians, the Illyrian elite enslaving the local Dardanian population. In short these were descendants of Dardanians of Troy.

That Shkupi, Nish follow the development within Albanian phonological rules, that Albanian has some Illyrian "Dardanian" (Illyrians cannot be related to Dardanians of Troy they are invaders from the West) lexical influence. Albanians have no maritime vocabulary etc.

So what I am saying R-Z2705 were Dardanian speakers and they joined some proper Bessoi (V13 clades). Bessoi in Late Antiquity occupied eastern Dardania.

And there is one toponym in Eastern Dardania which "might" indicate indeed the fusion of Albanian speakers with Illyrians from Dardania.

And why would Bessoi (V13) adopt the language of Dardanians R-Z2705 even though they (Bessoi) invaded Arbanon (according to you). I mean, this is all speculation up in the air. We need actual facts.

 

[Archetype0ne]

There is no such tradition ever recorded among Albanians in any Albanian region. Go try find this Jabal mausoleum, it doesn't exist. This is an ottoman fairy tale.

If there were any even tiny bit of truth to this tradition, it was probably just a misunderstanding by the Ottoman of a local syncretism like the pilgrimage to mountain tops that Bektashi Albanians do to Baba Tomor, which is an ancient pagan rite that was adapted to avoid persecution, and confined to one village or town or such thing. But it is obvious that there is no truth because this entire fairy tale is obviously motivated by two fake folk etymologies.

Literally there is no such tradition of a "Jabal" that existed among Albanians. We know the geneaologies of Albanian tribes all over the north, thousands of ethnographic studies about origins and "Jabal" has never showed up anywhere among any tribe or region, unlike Murr Deti or other mythical figures that shows up among countless tribes.

This tradition is literally totally invented and was not present among any Albanians anywhere. This is a perfect example of how absent your critical thinking skills are. There are Albanian catholic and orthodox communities that have been Christian since the Roman era, taking this type of statement seriously that they believed they descended from a qurayshi arab tribe shows a total idiocy and lack of reasoning. Absolutely unfathomable how stupid this is.

Shqiptar is the ethnonym that ALL Albanians began identifying with, be they from Catholic, Orthodox, Bektashi, whatever. It had nothing to do with this stupid myth or any sort of idea of origin from Arabs or religious affiliation.

Arnavud etymologically has absolutely no relation to that dumb folk etymology. It is just the Turkish mediation of "Arvanite", the Greek name for Albanians.

We can tell this entire myth was made because of stupid folk etymologies, some mountains must have had some name that sounded like Jabal to someone, so they invent a fairytale where some Jabal guy must have named them. The same moronic reasoning is evident in the "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), a stupid story to etymologise Arnavud and some mountain range.

Bro, let his superior brain color that fairytale book as he did with the text.
I am sure in the place that he is superior this is considered academics. When he has to deal with actual achieved people it will be a reality check that might take his ego down a peg. This how people set themselves up for midlife crises, when they find out that having potential in first grade does not equal having potential as a man. Sooner or later he might realize that his "superior" mindset is just an overcompensation for an inferiority complex.
Pure naivete.

 

[Hawk]

It's hard to find burial practices of Messapis. This is the burial practice of non-Greek Salento which essentially means Calabri/Messapi.

It should be noted that before the 6 centuryC
the only evidence that can be linked toburial practice were the enchytrismoi, child burials in jars, a practice which is attesed asearly as the eleventh century
C
and continued uninterrupted up to the Roman period(Becker 1983) The lack of evidence of arly Iron Age tombs as a general problem hasbeen raised by various scholars (Lombardo 994; Semeraro 997: 357-8; 2005; Burgers1998: 196-7; 2004b: 132) and it has been suggested that this pattern can be explainedby the contemporary existence in these early phases of some other form of ritual whicharchaeology has not been able to spot so far (as in the by now paradigmatic example ofgeometric Athens: Morris 1987) Undoubtedly the distribution of evidence (Fig 2), somarkedly skewed toward the end of the chronological interval under consideration, leavesroom for a scenario of this sort where inhumation gradually replaced the previous ritual.If we ignore the shortage of evidence referring to the second half of the
y
century
C
(atrend that as we have seen nds good parallels across Southern Italy), the general pictureis one in which the frequency of tombs per year among the sample grows steadily, reaching


https://www.academia.edu/174190/Burial_and_society_in_non-Greek_Salento_Southeast_Italy_600-250_BC

If inhumation remained a constant throughout the timeframe under scrutiny the ways inwhich this rite was practised changed consistently through time. The early tombs of the6 centuryBC
are mostly single inhumations in simple pit graves irregularly square oroval in shape.

This is interesting, oval pits burial was a practice of Trebeniste Culture( aside from cremation on a pyre beneath having a tumuli). I have some other sources, which i will link it latter which precisely states that Messapi used these ritual pits as burial practices, but it looks like they used burial jars as well and of course inhumation exclusively, but both inhumation and cremation are broad spectrums, it needs to be scoped down to precise ritual in order to classify them as material culture.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

^

Many of those are just Illyrian words or names . For example 'Zana' was an Illyrian goddess

For example Noel Malcolm claims Romanian descendant from Romanized Illyrians from the Dardania region:

[FONT=&quot]Only the remnants of a Latin-speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Balkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The name 'Vlach' was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs' own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani). As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians: their two languages (which, with a little practice, are mutually intelligible) diverged only in the ninth or tenth century. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]While Romanian historians have tried to argue that the Romanian-speakers have always lived in the territory of Romania (originating, it is claimed, from Romanized Dacian tribes and/or Roman legionaries), there is compelling evidence to show that the Romanian-speakers were originally part of the same population as the Vlachs, whose language and way of life were developed somewhere to the south of the Danube. Only in the twelfth century did the early Romanian-speakers move northwards into Romanian territory.[/FONT]

I haven't seen any evidence that they are Dacian words.

 

[Aspurg]

There is no such tradition ever recorded among Albanians in any Albanian region. Go try find this Jabal mausoleum, it doesn't exist. This is an ottoman fairy tale.

If there were any even tiny bit of truth to this tradition, it was probably just a misunderstanding by the Ottoman of a local syncretism like the pilgrimage to mountain tops that Bektashi Albanians do to Baba Tomor, which is an ancient pagan rite that was adapted to avoid persecution, and confined to one village or town or such thing. But it is obvious that there is no truth because this entire fairy tale is obviously motivated by two fake folk etymologies.

Literally there is no such tradition of a "Jabal" that existed among Albanians. We know the geneaologies of Albanian tribes all over the north, thousands of ethnographic studies about origins and "Jabal" has never showed up anywhere among any tribe or region, unlike Murr Deti or other mythical figures that shows up among countless tribes.

This tradition is literally totally invented and was not present among any Albanians anywhere. This is a perfect example of how absent your critical thinking skills are. There are Albanian catholic and orthodox communities that have been Christian since the Roman era, taking this type of statement seriously that they believed they descended from a qurayshi arab tribe shows a total idiocy and lack of reasoning. Absolutely unfathomable how stupid this is.

Shqiptar is the ethnonym that ALL Albanians began identifying with, be they from Catholic, Orthodox, Bektashi, whatever. It had nothing to do with this stupid myth or any sort of idea of origin from Arabs or religious affiliation.

Arnavud etymologically has absolutely no relation to that dumb folk etymology. It is just the Turkish mediation of "Arvanite", the Greek name for Albanians.

We can tell this entire myth was made because of stupid folk etymologies, some mountains must have had some name that sounded like Jabal to someone, so they invent a fairytale where some Jabal guy must have named them. The same moronic reasoning is evident in the "there should be no shame" ('ār-nā-būd), a stupid story to etymologise Arnavud and some mountain range.

LOL, obviously I was trolling a bit. Ofc this is a fairytale. But its still a historical one.
http://www.albanianliterature.net/legends/legend_11.html

In places such as Northern Albania where there is tribal organization, no doubt no Jabal would be present in any traditions, and in N.Albania / Kosovo there were many late time islamizations.

But in Southern Albanian/Tosk areas, and this is Elbasan, Kurvelesh, where Albanians might not remember more than 5 generations (as is often the case from the samples I know of), who knows what they believed 300-400 years ago. Islamization was starting to occur already by the second half of 16th century (can be seen in defters), and especially in Central/Southern areas without tribal organization this was stronger. So it may indeed refer to some Bektashi communities but I doubt Evliya Celebi made it all up out of thin air. He did exaggerate often, and some of his constructions though wrong still usually contained something truthful.

"Shqiptar" is accepted today but it surely did not exist in 1726. among Catholic Albanians because that is when the second group of Arbanasi departed to Zadar.

Actually this 'ār-nā-būd, construction is a mixture of Arabic and Persian, more Persian, as عار, ʿār is shame while na-bud is a Persian negation of the 3rd person singular in the verb "to be".

Maybe you could send it to Olsi Jazehxi, I think he'd find this tradition more interesting.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

There is also evidence to show this such as medieval place names in Kosovo are filled with Romanian and Aromanian toponyms based on a document I read but I cannot find the document anymore

this paper I read claims the same

Aromanian toponyms give some indication of the pre-Slavic linguistic situation in these regions, but in the early Middle Ages, it appears that Slavic was spoken in both regions

It's about KOSOVO, I cannot post links.

It's a paper I read about Albanians in Opoja, the Serbs in the 20th century found out only half of the Albanians belonged to clans from Northern Albania, the other half didn't and claimed they were 'Albanized Serbs' without any evidence. They are trying to credit the demographic Albanian growth in Kosovo during the early Ottoman period as a mass immigration from Northern Albania which there is no evidence for. By 1591 Opoja in Kosovo had a large Albanian population. Nothing suggests this happened as a result of immigration from Northern Albania. It was also shown later many there did not belong to any clans from Northern Albania.

This account is also supported by Lutovac’s (1956: 273) findings that “of 72 lineages and 1032 households, 37 lineages and 578 houses are ‘immigrants’ (doseljenici) and 36 lineages and 455 households are of unknown background.” Of the immigrant lineages, 14 claim decent from the nearby Albanian border regions of Hasi / Podrimlje and Luma, while 18 claim descent from elsewhere in Albania. Notably, the lineages of ‘unknown’ background interviewed in Lutovac (1956) were not aware of belonging to a fis, the Albanian concept of clan organization known in northern Albania and Kosovo

We know most clans only formed in the early Ottoman period. Only Berisha is recorded in pre-Ottoman times.

 

[Aspurg]

We know most clans only formed in the early Ottoman period. Only Berisha is recorded in pre-Ottoman times.

Nonsense, already in Venetian census of 1416 you have great many. In Serbian Chrysobulis of Dečani monastery from 1330. in Arbanas katun you have last names Tuz, Kuch/Kuq, Bithidos/Bisidos..