Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Johane Derite]

Matzinger is a next level hoaxer. You can't etymologize exonyms to that detail. Maybe try to find a root word or two, but you can't pretend that's the EXACT form of those words. This dude unironically thinks Illyrian names ended in "um". That's how Romans wrote it. Imagine trying to etymologize "Austria" by ignoring the fact that the locals call it "Osterreich".

I am saying this with respect, but this just comes across as major cope. Read the book, it is available for purchase online, and even if you do not understand german, google translate will get you 90% there.

He explicitly covers all the points about possible limitations of greek and latin mediation of toponyms, etc, and the "um" you are referring to is not the "suffix" you think it is.

"This dude unironically thinks Illyrian names ended in "um""

No, he doesn't, that isn't what the argument is, so you are arguing with an imagined straw man in your head.

It is the reflex of these four syllabic resonants:

r̩
l̩
m̩
n̩

In Albanian, these gave:

r̩ -> ri
l̩ -> li
m̩ -> a
n̩ -> a

In Illyrian, based on anthroponyms and toponyms:

r̩ -> ur
l̩ -> ul
m̩ -> um
n̩ -> un

He constantly remarks about how cautious we have to be with these names and toponyms because names tend to desemantize,
and the Latin or Greek scripts might not represent phonetically the Illyrian sound system well, and so the entire point of the book
is to extract a bare minimum of Illyrian language features (morphology, sound laws,) while eliminating greek, latin, celtic, etc,
contamination.

 

[Johane Derite]

If this model is accurate then maybe some sort of difference existed between Dauni and Messapi proper.

Jupiter Menzana is interesting for example, a Messapic deity that they sacrificed foals to.

Old Albanian. Manz (foal)
Thracian. Mezenai (horseman)

In the Aeneid, there is an Etruscan king with the name "Mezentius" fighting alongside "Messapus."


"Messapus" and "Mezentius" are not Etruscan language names. I think this is an Albanoid name that was loaned into Etruscan and is etymologically related to Albanian and Messapic manz/menzana.

The tradition of Dardanian migrants playing a role in the foundation of Alba Longa might be related to the same migration that placed the Messapic language in Italy.


"The main leaders, Messapus, Ufens, and Mezentius, scorner of gods, gathered their forces from every side"

There might be a slight chance that even the ethnonym of Albanoi that appears post-Roman entry in Illyrian lands might be from Dardanian communities trying to identify with the Albans of Alba-Longa via their perceived and shared Dardanian origin

 

[Johane Derite]

This pink area is where personal names that can rightly be called "Illyrian" appear in the epigraphic record, according to Matzinger.


Names such as:


Skerdilaidas
Clevatus
Longarus


Etc

 

[Johane Derite]

In the Aeneid, there is an Etruscan king with the name "Mezentius" fighting alongside "Messapus."


"Messapus" and "Mezentius" are not Etruscan language names. I think this is an Albanoid name that was loaned into Etruscan and is etymologically related to Albanian and Messapic manz/menzana.

The tradition of Dardanian migrants playing a role in the foundation of Alba Longa might be related to the same migration that placed the Messapic language in Italy.


"The main leaders, Messapus, Ufens, and Mezentius, scorner of gods, gathered their forces from every side"

There might be a slight chance that even the ethnonym of Albanoi that appears post-Roman entry in Illyrian lands might be from Dardanian communities trying to identify with the Albans of Alba-Longa via their perceived and shared Dardanian origin

That the Etruscans should have a leader named Messapus obviously opens up the possibility of Messapic - Etruscan contact.

The god that Messapics sacrificed horses to (Menzanas) is supported by Matzinger as being etymologically related to Albanian. Mëz [foal].

Is it far fetched to suppose that Mezentius is also etymologically related here?

 

[Hawk]

Well, we need ancient samples from Messapians. I wonder if they were exactly the same as Daunians.

 

[Johane Derite]

Well, we need ancient samples from Messapians. I wonder if they were exactly the same as Daunians.

Yeah, the Calabrians specifically, since this is where the densest amount of Messapic language inscriptions have been found:

 

[Johane Derite]

From this quote from Diodorus Siculus, we see that there seem to have been at least territorial conquests between Calabrians and Daunians, so we need samples from each of these regions to see a clear picture

"Cannae is a plainland of Apulia, where Diomedes founded the city of Argyrippa, that is, in the Greek tongue, Argos Hippeion.

This plain has belonged to the Daunians, thereafter to the Iapygians, then to the Sallentians, and now to the people whom all men call Calabrians; it was furthermore at the boundary between Calabrians and Lombards that the great battle between them broke forth."

§ 25.19.2
Diodorus Siculus, Library 8-40

 

[Johane Derite]

Yeah, the Calabrians specifically, since this is where the densest amount of Messapic language inscriptions have been found:

480 / 539 total inscriptions are from Calabria (~89%)
31 / 539 are from Peuketia (~5%)
28 / 539 are from Daunia (~5%)

Also important to note that for example that most of the inscriptions found in Peuketia and Daunia show up along the coasts or in regions which Calabrians controlled (as remarked by Diodorus Siculus in the previous post), so this also needs to be kept in mind.

 

[Johane Derite]

In his new book, Matzinger argues that from a linguistic perspective:


1. Messapic is not an Italic language and has no relation to Latino-Faliscan or Sabellic languages.


2. Messapic relation to Illyrian should be rejected


3. Messapic is a typical language of Balkan IE origin

 

[Hawk]

In his new book, Matzinger argues that from a linguistic perspective:


1. Messapic is not an Italic language and has no relation to Latino-Faliscan or Sabellic languages.


2. Messapic relation to Illyrian should be rejected


3. Messapic is a typical language of Balkan IE origin

Two hypothesis/theories come to mind then:

1. Messapian/Albanoid-related language was the language originally spoken by J2b2-L283 and Proto-Illyrian Koszider/Hugelgraberkultur assimilated the ones in Glasinac during LBA, they were probably a warrior elite which imposed the language but didn't change the population structure much.

2. Messapian/Albanoid-like were either R1b-Z2103 or E-V13/R1b-Z2103 versus J2b2-L283/Illyroid.

Any more options?

 

[Johane Derite]

Two hypothesis/theories come to mind then:

1. Messapian/Albanoid-related language was the language originally spoken by J2b2-L283 and Proto-Illyrian Koszider/Hugelgraberkultur assimilated the ones in Glasinac during LBA, they were probably a warrior elite which imposed the language but didn't change the population structure much.

2. Messapian/Albanoid-like were either R1b-Z2103 or E-V13/R1b-Z2103 versus J2b2-L283/Illyroid.

Any more options?

I don't know, it might be that this is an artefact of inscriptions producing a distortion, or maybe there was some sort of difference in linguistic grouping.

Maybe Dauni/Iapyges/Peudeki were part of the Eastern Alpine Block with Illyrian, and Calabrians not?

The connection of Dardanian Galabrii with Messapic Calabri that has been made by scholars like Papazoglu comes to mind.

If Dardanian was originally not of the East Alpine Block but of the Balkan IE group with Phrygian/Armenian/Albanian, then maybe this might account. But it seems awkward, need to see more Calabrian specific studies, if there are differences that account for this.

 

[torzio]

Two hypothesis/theories come to mind then:

1. Messapian/Albanoid-related language was the language originally spoken by J2b2-L283 and Proto-Illyrian Koszider/Hugelgraberkultur assimilated the ones in Glasinac during LBA, they were probably a warrior elite which imposed the language but didn't change the population structure much.

2. Messapian/Albanoid-like were either R1b-Z2103 or E-V13/R1b-Z2103 versus J2b2-L283/Illyroid.

Any more options?

The Daunians spoke messapic ............they where the biggest of the 3 tribes in Apulia by far

They arrived from modern Croatia to Foggia Italy circa 1000BC

 

[torzio]

I don't know, it might be that this is an artefact of inscriptions producing a distortion, or maybe there was some sort of difference in linguistic grouping.

Maybe Dauni/Iapyges/Peudeki were part of the Eastern Alpine Block with Illyrian, and Calabrians not?

The connection of Dardanian Galabrii with Messapic Calabri that has been made by scholars like Papazoglu comes to mind.

If Dardanian was originally not of the East Alpine Block but of the Balkan IE group with Phrygian/Armenian/Albanian, then maybe this might account. But it seems awkward, need to see more Calabrian specific studies, if there are differences that account for this.

Rhizonic coast is in modern Montenegro

https://www.academia.edu/540332/Rhi...te_Classical_and_Hellenistic_Pottery_Evidence

 

[Hawk]

The Daunians spoke messapic ............they where the biggest of the 3 tribes in Apulia by far
They arrived from modern Croatia to Foggia Italy circa 1000BC

Yes, that's what we knew so far, but we are trying to wrap and fit the model proposed by Matzinger.

1. Illyrian East Alpine Block language.

2. Messapic a Balkanic IE language not related to Illyrian.

 

[enter_tain]

People need to stop quoting Matzinger. He knows less about archeology than a random poster on a forum. The guy thought "degjoj" comes from the word "intelligence", forgetting that "pergjoj" shares the same root word "gjoj" and renders his derivations nonsensical. You know why? Because he doesn't speak Albanian nor is he informed on Illyrian history/archeology. He's just a clown trying to make a quick buck.

He literally knows nothing and his shit has been debunked countless times. Now he's turning into an archeologist? He's not even aware that Illyrian tribes lived north of Bosnia.

Two hypothesis/theories come to mind then:

1. Messapian/Albanoid-related language was the language originally spoken by J2b2-L283 and Proto-Illyrian Koszider/Hugelgraberkultur assimilated the ones in Glasinac during LBA, they were probably a warrior elite which imposed the language but didn't change the population structure much.

2. Messapian/Albanoid-like were either R1b-Z2103 or E-V13/R1b-Z2103 versus J2b2-L283/Illyroid.

Any more options?

Dude, wth are you talking about? The Southern Illyrians are marked by Z638, which northern Illyrians lack.

South Illyrians intermixed with Epirotes and Macedonians. They are going to have "Greek-like" lineages like RZ2103 and EV-13, regardless of origin. There is a reason Albanians/Greeks cluster closely together.

 

[Johane Derite]

People need to stop quoting Matzinger. He knows less about archeology than a random poster on a forum. The guy thought "degjoj" comes from the word "intelligence", forgetting that "pergjoj" shares the same root word "gjoj" and renders his derivations nonsensical. You know why? Because he doesn't speak Albanian nor is he informed on Illyrian history/archeology. He's just a clown trying to make a quick buck. Like I mentioned, him trying to etymologize every single letter of "Illyrian words" without being aware that they're exonyms is linguistic blasphemy.

He literally knows nothing and his shit has been debunked countless times. Now he's turning into an archeologist? He's not even aware that Illyrian tribes lived north of Bosnia.

This book is literally co-authored with Andreas Lippert and the first half of the book is only about the archaeology of the Illyrians, the second half is about their language.

He hasn't debunked countless times as you claim. So much nonsense in one comment

 

[enter_tain]

This book is literally co-authored with Andreas Lippert and the first half of the book is only about the archaeology of the Illyrians, the second half is about their language.
He hasn't debunked countless times as you claim. So much nonsense in one comment

Are you a burner account of Matzinger or something? You keep shilling his stuff on here. There are no writings of "Illyrian language". If we did we wouldn't have arguments about who/how Illyrian is related to other languages.

What we have are:

(1) Exynoms butchered by Greeks/Romans by rendering them in their own language
(2) Some name inscriptions, again written in the Greek alphabet, which is not going to capture

Treating those words like that's their original form is not linguistic work. It's called hoaxing. That's not an academic book. That's snake oil.

 

[Johane Derite]

Are you a burner account of Matzinger or something? You keep shilling his stuff on here. There are no writings of "Illyrian language". If we did we wouldn't have arguments about who/how Illyrian is related to other languages.

What we have are:

(1) Exynoms butchered by Greeks/Romans by rendering them in their own language
(2) Some name inscriptions, again written in the Greek alphabet, which is not going to capture

Treating those words like that's their original form is not linguistic work. It's called hoaxing. That's not an academic book. That's snake oil.

Stop the crying and deal with the fact that this is what serious academics are saying.

Its obvious that you havent ever even read this book so the only person that is hoaxing here is you.

 

[Johane Derite]

In his new book, Matzinger argues that from a linguistic perspective:


1. Messapic is not an Italic language and has no relation to Latino-Faliscan or Sabellic languages.


2. Messapic relation to Illyrian should be rejected


3. Messapic is a typical language of Balkan IE origin

One thing for sure is this new book will not go away, and will probably the main reference for many academics beginning Illyrian studies in this generation.

Best to get updated with what the updated archaeological and linguistic consensus is.

 

[enter_tain]

Stop the crying and deal with the fact that this is what serious academics are saying.
Its obvious that you havent ever even read this book so the only person that is hoaxing here is you.

You literally have not addressed a single point I brought up. How in good conscience does someone perform detailed linguistic analysis on an exonym?

It's like me trying to analyze where the word "Austria" comes from. "Oh, it ends in -ia, that must be an Eastern Latin place. I think "Aust" is related to the "Austerity""

Nevermind that the locals call it "Osterreich". But yeah, let's perform letter-by-letter analysis on a butchered exonym.