Yes. And we will not forget. We are both old farmers. This is the most important ...
Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]
- Thread starter Johane Derite
- Start date
:useless: :useless: :useless:
we have been mutated to modern ones
we can think now, and pronounce Λογος (true/false speech)
Are we fighting like nonsense? Now, Artificial "genetics" is getting stronger. We created it and it becomes probably self-conscious. It will throw us in the trash if we do not wake up. After all, we'll have to stop feeding it. Otherwise, biological beings will no longer exist.
I hope I'm wrong! But I think should we care, as it is not too late?
Gash
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Albanian mythology has a lot of Ancient Greek influence, there also seems to be a cultural influence. So clearly there was a contact with Ancient Greeks despite Albanian has more Latin than Greek influence. It just isn't enough of an arguement.
Albanians and Albanian clearly originated in the Western Balkans and not Eastern. Its only Greek and Serb nationalists that propose the Eastern theory.
Romanian speakers most likely came from South of the Balkans, this guy proposed Dardania as the origin.
Dardanians were at constant war with thr Ancient Greeks. Although he misses some point. There was clearly Dalmatian latin influence in Albanian.
Noel Malcolm proposed something similar, Northern Albania, Kosovo / Macedonia ... its also possible other neighboring areas.
Atleast Northern Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia is where proto Albanain was spoken. Other areas could be included like Dalmatia, Hercegovina and possibly even Southern Albania (Albanians are mentioned there way before migrations of the North). But these are from a linguist point of view and not genetics.
It's very possible most of the Western Balkans spoke some proto Albanian language prior to Roman occupation and Latinization. Or ''Ilyrian'' would be a better term since proto Albanian emerged post Roman era. The Vlachs being Latinized people. If not for Latinization, their language would possibly be similar to Albanian. Both would of possibly spoken the same language if not for Latin.
Dacia was never latinized afaik , the Romans never ruled it for that long and a Thracian origin is unlikely if you take into consideration the Messapian connection. Also Thracians were quite Hellenized.
These topics are always driven by nationalism is the problem and ''we wuz there before you ''
If I recall correctly , ancient Greek historians mentioned Epirotes and Macedonians as non Greek but that is another topic .. but maybe it could also explain Albanian. (Such non Greek people would of been the neighbors of the Albanians)
If we also go by genetics, anthropology and toponomies there is also the possibility of a more Northern Ilyrian origin for the proto Albanians.
Carleton Coon who studied Albanians for 10 years put it with Ilyrian , the Ghegs he put as Ilyrians, the Tosks as Epirotes.
https://archive.org/details/TheMountainsOfGiants
Albanians and Albanian clearly originated in the Western Balkans and not Eastern. Its only Greek and Serb nationalists that propose the Eastern theory.
Romanian speakers most likely came from South of the Balkans, this guy proposed Dardania as the origin.
Dardanians were at constant war with thr Ancient Greeks. Although he misses some point. There was clearly Dalmatian latin influence in Albanian.
Noel Malcolm proposed something similar, Northern Albania, Kosovo / Macedonia ... its also possible other neighboring areas.
Atleast Northern Albania, Kosovo and Macedonia is where proto Albanain was spoken. Other areas could be included like Dalmatia, Hercegovina and possibly even Southern Albania (Albanians are mentioned there way before migrations of the North). But these are from a linguist point of view and not genetics.
It's very possible most of the Western Balkans spoke some proto Albanian language prior to Roman occupation and Latinization. Or ''Ilyrian'' would be a better term since proto Albanian emerged post Roman era. The Vlachs being Latinized people. If not for Latinization, their language would possibly be similar to Albanian. Both would of possibly spoken the same language if not for Latin.
Dacia was never latinized afaik , the Romans never ruled it for that long and a Thracian origin is unlikely if you take into consideration the Messapian connection. Also Thracians were quite Hellenized.
These topics are always driven by nationalism is the problem and ''we wuz there before you ''
If I recall correctly , ancient Greek historians mentioned Epirotes and Macedonians as non Greek but that is another topic .. but maybe it could also explain Albanian. (Such non Greek people would of been the neighbors of the Albanians)
If we also go by genetics, anthropology and toponomies there is also the possibility of a more Northern Ilyrian origin for the proto Albanians.
Carleton Coon who studied Albanians for 10 years put it with Ilyrian , the Ghegs he put as Ilyrians, the Tosks as Epirotes.
https://archive.org/details/TheMountainsOfGiants
If not their meaning, not even a word?
Romanians probably occupied larger territory than that one.
also Roman legions were indeed situated in Dacia,and most of the time on the Danubian limes,since that was the borders.
Sile
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I think you need to research ancient romanian language before they changed to Latin based ..........what did they speak before the Romans arrived
Oh can you tell us what they spoke before Romans came?
I think that if we collect all the similarly sounding words specific to the Balkan countries that do not find a correspondent in other languages outside the area, we could reconstitute a paleo-Balkanic language model. Some words, such as those already known and commonly spoken in Albania, Romania, and by the Aromanians, which are believed to have Traco-Dacian origin, and better if these words are shared with other Balkan languages like Slavic and Greek.
other link with shared Albanian-Romanian words here: https://vdocuments.site/cuvintele-comune-in-albaneza-si-in-romana.html
other link with shared Albanian-Romanian words here: https://vdocuments.site/cuvintele-comune-in-albaneza-si-in-romana.html
Gannicus
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Ok some clearing here.
Rather than in some ideological maps based on nothing but ipothesises we should first of all define:
1) wich of the words, verbs, grammar rules, features of albanian are originally derived from it's original ancestor and wich ones are imported.
2) is albanian a satem, a centum or a centumized satem, or what? (I personally think it is clearly a centumized satem, i am gonna explain later on).
3) basing ourselves on the discoveries made by following the previews points suggest with wich language group does it link?
Without following this methodology of work we are only ********.
My personal views:
Albanian was originally a satem language but got centumized by the influx of latin, circa 40% of albanian vocabulary is latin derived and we got yet to define if only vocabulary or even some grammar + phrase formation features are derived from latin, and it clearly appears that a lot more then just words in albanian come from latin, for example phrase structure.
EXAMPLE:
english: what have you done?
ITA: cosa(what) hai(have you) fatto(done)?
AL: ça(what) ke(have you) bër(done)?
Now, to understand from who modern albanian got to have come we have to understand from who the albanians cone from.
Albanians certenly come from a group of balkanic people that for some kind of rebellion got massacred by the romans, those few who survived the decimation from the romans hided on the mountains of montenegro/kosovo, since now albanian was isolated, so no more latin influence could come into albanian.
This clearly explains the half latinization of albanians instead of a full latinization, as was the case for romanians and dalmatians.
So we have to define now exactly who rebelled and got killed during roman times in the western balkans because of a rebellion in order to understand who are the albanians.
Then if we can define that albanian originally was satem we can proove that linguistically albanian doesn't come from illyrian even if they have a genetic connection with them, this because illyrian was a centum language.
Examples of latin words getting satemized in albanian (or at least you can see an attempt to do so)
ITA: AL:
gola gushë
cappuccio këpushë
spada shpatë
corto shkurtër
pidocchio plesht
ospizio(casa) shtëpi
rumore zhurmë
vestirsi të vishesh
causa shkak
schiacciare të shtypësh
calpestare të shkelësh
valorizzare të vlersosh
scoppio shpërthim
somma shtes
cammino shkoj/heci
come si
perchè pse
chi kush
colonizzo sundoj
This is what i can tell you with my knowledge as an albanian native speaker.
Now as a conclusion albanians could probably have common ancestors eith romanians, linguistically and genetically( in both you can find significant amounts of J2b + E-V13 haplougroups as a link, and gess what in romanians these 2 haplos are mostly typical of south romania (wallachia) closer to albania, and divided by the rest of europe by the carpatians, making the are of kosovo/macedonia the perfect hotspot for the development of both.)
Albanians come from a group of these albano-romanians who caused some riots in the area (as we historically do under foreign rule ) and got almost wiped out by the romans, so they hided on the mountanous area of montenegro, while romanians, those who stayed calm and chilled stayed where they were and kept on getting latinized by the romans, and during christian times getting influenced by greek christianity who then in 1054 will develop into orthodoxy, explaying why the romanians, even if heavily influenced linguistically/culturally by latin sided with the greeks in religious choices by choosing orthodoxy over catholicism.
This even explains the heavy presence of aromanians in Tetovo, Grabovo so macedonia and their expantion to south albania (closer to macedonia) rather than in north albania, because that's the homeland of both aromanians + romanians and even of albanians before making riots in the area and getting almost wiped out by the romans.
Then the romanian speaking people migrated later to moldova + wallhachia, and very recently to transylvania, so over the carpathians + there they even found some latin speaking settlers from rome, so their latin component strenghtened up even more and so did their national identity.
Why they migrated there then? cuz as albanians and aromanians, romanians too were shepherds so were rather seasonal nomads rather then sedentary farmers or cattle herders.
An intresnting thing to strenghten up my theory is albanian/romanian/aromanian typical costumes and the use of qeleshe who tie them up together.
Rather than in some ideological maps based on nothing but ipothesises we should first of all define:
1) wich of the words, verbs, grammar rules, features of albanian are originally derived from it's original ancestor and wich ones are imported.
2) is albanian a satem, a centum or a centumized satem, or what? (I personally think it is clearly a centumized satem, i am gonna explain later on).
3) basing ourselves on the discoveries made by following the previews points suggest with wich language group does it link?
Without following this methodology of work we are only ********.
My personal views:
Albanian was originally a satem language but got centumized by the influx of latin, circa 40% of albanian vocabulary is latin derived and we got yet to define if only vocabulary or even some grammar + phrase formation features are derived from latin, and it clearly appears that a lot more then just words in albanian come from latin, for example phrase structure.
EXAMPLE:
english: what have you done?
ITA: cosa(what) hai(have you) fatto(done)?
AL: ça(what) ke(have you) bër(done)?
Now, to understand from who modern albanian got to have come we have to understand from who the albanians cone from.
Albanians certenly come from a group of balkanic people that for some kind of rebellion got massacred by the romans, those few who survived the decimation from the romans hided on the mountains of montenegro/kosovo, since now albanian was isolated, so no more latin influence could come into albanian.
This clearly explains the half latinization of albanians instead of a full latinization, as was the case for romanians and dalmatians.
So we have to define now exactly who rebelled and got killed during roman times in the western balkans because of a rebellion in order to understand who are the albanians.
Then if we can define that albanian originally was satem we can proove that linguistically albanian doesn't come from illyrian even if they have a genetic connection with them, this because illyrian was a centum language.
Examples of latin words getting satemized in albanian (or at least you can see an attempt to do so)
ITA: AL:
gola gushë
cappuccio këpushë
spada shpatë
corto shkurtër
pidocchio plesht
ospizio(casa) shtëpi
rumore zhurmë
vestirsi të vishesh
causa shkak
schiacciare të shtypësh
calpestare të shkelësh
valorizzare të vlersosh
scoppio shpërthim
somma shtes
cammino shkoj/heci
come si
perchè pse
chi kush
colonizzo sundoj
This is what i can tell you with my knowledge as an albanian native speaker.
Now as a conclusion albanians could probably have common ancestors eith romanians, linguistically and genetically( in both you can find significant amounts of J2b + E-V13 haplougroups as a link, and gess what in romanians these 2 haplos are mostly typical of south romania (wallachia) closer to albania, and divided by the rest of europe by the carpatians, making the are of kosovo/macedonia the perfect hotspot for the development of both.)
Albanians come from a group of these albano-romanians who caused some riots in the area (as we historically do under foreign rule
) and got almost wiped out by the romans, so they hided on the mountanous area of montenegro, while romanians, those who stayed calm and chilled stayed where they were and kept on getting latinized by the romans, and during christian times getting influenced by greek christianity who then in 1054 will develop into orthodoxy, explaying why the romanians, even if heavily influenced linguistically/culturally by latin sided with the greeks in religious choices by choosing orthodoxy over catholicism.This even explains the heavy presence of aromanians in Tetovo, Grabovo so macedonia and their expantion to south albania (closer to macedonia) rather than in north albania, because that's the homeland of both aromanians + romanians and even of albanians before making riots in the area and getting almost wiped out by the romans.
Then the romanian speaking people migrated later to moldova + wallhachia, and very recently to transylvania, so over the carpathians + there they even found some latin speaking settlers from rome, so their latin component strenghtened up even more and so did their national identity.
Why they migrated there then? cuz as albanians and aromanians, romanians too were shepherds so were rather seasonal nomads rather then sedentary farmers or cattle herders.
An intresnting thing to strenghten up my theory is albanian/romanian/aromanian typical costumes and the use of qeleshe who tie them up together.
Yetos
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Finally, some here I can speak.
2 questions
1rst.
The case of Antes, a basic part of modern Romanians,
has it passed to Albanians? or not?
I think it is a good question, to start realize,
the second is too early to be asked.
need some more genetic samples, from all balkans,
@ Gannicus
Albanian is Satem 2, as Armenian
It is Satem, but it is of its own rules
like Armenian,
most believe it is uncomplete satemization specially with kw and gw
they both seem to appear among limits/frontier of centum and full satem 1,
2 questions
1rst.
The case of Antes, a basic part of modern Romanians,
has it passed to Albanians? or not?
I think it is a good question, to start realize,
the second is too early to be asked.
need some more genetic samples, from all balkans,
@ Gannicus
Albanian is Satem 2, as Armenian
It is Satem, but it is of its own rules
like Armenian,
most believe it is uncomplete satemization specially with kw and gw
they both seem to appear among limits/frontier of centum and full satem 1,
LABERIA
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Ok some clearing here.
Rather than in some ideological maps based on nothing but ipothesises we should first of all define:
1) wich of the words, verbs, grammar rules, features of albanian are originally derived from it's original ancestor and wich ones are imported.
2) is albanian a satem, a centum or a centumized satem, or what? (I personally think it is clearly a centumized satem, i am gonna explain later on).
3) basing ourselves on the discoveries made by following the previews points suggest with wich language group does it link?
Without following this methodology of work we are only ********.
My personal views:
Albanian was originally a satem language but got centumized by the influx of latin, circa 40% of albanian vocabulary is latin derived and we got yet to define if only vocabulary or even some grammar + phrase formation features are derived from latin, and it clearly appears that a lot more then just words in albanian come from latin, for example phrase structure.
EXAMPLE:
english: what have you done?
ITA: cosa(what) hai(have you) fatto(done)?
AL: ça(what) ke(have you) bër(done)?
Now, to understand from who modern albanian got to have come we have to understand from who the albanians cone from.
Albanians certenly come from a group of balkanic people that for some kind of rebellion got massacred by the romans, those few who survived the decimation from the romans hided on the mountains of montenegro/kosovo, since now albanian was isolated, so no more latin influence could come into albanian.
This clearly explains the half latinization of albanians instead of a full latinization, as was the case for romanians and dalmatians.
So we have to define now exactly who rebelled and got killed during roman times in the western balkans because of a rebellion in order to understand who are the albanians.
Then if we can define that albanian originally was satem we can proove that linguistically albanian doesn't come from illyrian even if they have a genetic connection with them, this because illyrian was a centum language.
Examples of latin words getting satemized in albanian (or at least you can see an attempt to do so)
ITA: AL:
gola gushë
cappuccio këpushë
spada shpatë
corto shkurtër
pidocchio plesht
ospizio(casa) shtëpi
rumore zhurmë
vestirsi të vishesh
causa shkak
schiacciare të shtypësh
calpestare të shkelësh
valorizzare të vlersosh
scoppio shpërthim
somma shtes
cammino shkoj/heci
come si
perchè pse
chi kush
colonizzo sundoj
This is what i can tell you with my knowledge as an albanian native speaker.
Now as a conclusion albanians could probably have common ancestors eith romanians, linguistically and genetically( in both you can find significant amounts of J2b + E-V13 haplougroups as a link, and gess what in romanians these 2 haplos are mostly typical of south romania (wallachia) closer to albania, and divided by the rest of europe by the carpatians, making the are of kosovo/macedonia the perfect hotspot for the development of both.)
Albanians come from a group of these albano-romanians who caused some riots in the area (as we historically do under foreign rule
This even explains the heavy presence of aromanians in Tetovo, Grabovo so macedonia and their expantion to south albania (closer to macedonia) rather than in north albania, because that's the homeland of both aromanians + romanians and even of albanians before making riots in the area and getting almost wiped out by the romans.
Then the romanian speaking people migrated later to moldova + wallhachia, and very recently to transylvania, so over the carpathians + there they even found some latin speaking settlers from rome, so their latin component strenghtened up even more and so did their national identity.
Why they migrated there then? cuz as albanians and aromanians, romanians too were shepherds so were rather seasonal nomads rather then sedentary farmers or cattle herders.
An intresnting thing to strenghten up my theory is albanian/romanian/aromanian typical costumes and the use of qeleshe who tie them up together.
When happened these albano-romanian riots?
Nik
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Come bre/more! A donkey paste (you said eat) lastari in the mud.
Magar is used for donkey in Kosovo and the surrounding areas whereas in Albania we say gomar and very few near the border with Kosovo magjar (kind of like madzhiar).
In Kosovo it would be smth like: Eja bre/more! Ni magar po han .... n'balt.
amurg = muzg (I used google translator)
Vin I understood from Italian although we used "vin" in "ata po vin" - they are coming, or ai po vjen - he is coming.
So in reality I only understood magar and balta.
While translating your text, I discovered that lastari in Italian is germoglio, which as per wikipedia its the unearthed bud/sprout. In Albanian germoj means 'dig' (to dig the earth) and again by coincidence to unearth in Romanian is apparently ingropat, whereas gropa in Albanian means pit/whole. Although grob in South Slavic and West Slavic means tomb.
Gannicus
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I don't actually understand at the moment what you mean by antes, can you explain, maybe it's a common thing regarding us albanians but we just call it differently.
Then about the balkans DNA, yes we should have more samples, but even with those that we already have we can see that the romanian have significant quantities of J2b and E-V13 most exclusively in south romania (Wallachia) while there is almost a comolete lack in transylvania, this can be explained by the carpathians who acted as a natural barrirmers between south balkans and central/estern europe, for this reason romanians had it easier to go to the lands northern than bulgaria then were most of the modern romania lays.
After going there they found some latin settlers mostly in Buzau and moldova and they intermixed with them creating a common linguistical/cultural identity.
After settling there in moldova the I2 carriers who were local people where romanized but they almost totally absorbed the genetic cobtribution of J2b and E-V13 brought by proto-romanians, so we have modern Romania, and not even sopeaking about how romanian speaking people happened to be founf over the carpathians in transylvania, that's a medieval pheonomena caused by the hungarians, they need some loyal vassal to rule over those lands, probably partially empty due to the absorbtion of the local by jugoslavs and their migration towards modern day serbia, croatia and bosnja, so the hungarians took romanized people from moldova, this explains the high I2 + R1a of both transilvanya and moldova while having almost a complete lack of these 2 haplos southwords to wallachia.
The only R1a you can find south of the carpathian is bulgarian one coming from ukraine.
Gannicus
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Gannicus
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Very intresting video, the conclusiona i can make is that E-V13 haplogroup carriers carried albaniana language, how can it be indo european?? because it is an indoeuropean language that was probably spoken in anatolia, one of the cradles of indoeuropeans, probably albanians are sl dardanians, meaning anatolians who then migrated to modern day kosovo, but not illyrian, the illyrian component genetically come from R1b, while there is a, probably cetina or of some other culture coming from J2b, so albanian ia an indo-european anatolian language originally, this explains why its ancient exchanges with doric greek and its contributions to it, i remind you that the same kind of civilization you could find in dardania you could find it in western anatolia, so fo sure dardanians were very civilized people, but not illyrians, R1b carriers among albanians are illyrians.
Illyrian language was a centum language who was fully latinized and evolved into dalmatian.
Gannicus,
Nations are recent formations, but we are clear genetically close in Balkans, and from what I understand, the Romanians are not so close to the Albanians as they are first to the geographically closest peples, like those in Bulgaria, Serbia and even Ukraine or Hungary to a certain extent.
Also I think that Albanians, Romanians, and most of those in the Balkans have not been migrants but stable for thousands of years in the places where they were. So they had formed an old linguistic fund that still keeps something until today.
Nations are recent formations, but we are clear genetically close in Balkans, and from what I understand, the Romanians are not so close to the Albanians as they are first to the geographically closest peples, like those in Bulgaria, Serbia and even Ukraine or Hungary to a certain extent.
Also I think that Albanians, Romanians, and most of those in the Balkans have not been migrants but stable for thousands of years in the places where they were. So they had formed an old linguistic fund that still keeps something until today.
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