Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[boriss]

Once again, I totally agree and the data itself shows that Albanians are Paleo-Balkanic people, also that the most Illyrian admixture was preserved precisely among Albanians.


I just don't think their is language continuity or that most of the R1b precent was Illyrian or that EV-13 was main Dardanian carrier, if data shows me inccorect I am open for it nor i have hostility towards the idea.

In general i want to know specific haplogroup/subclades movement trough the Balkans and ages and centuries.
I want to eventually do Big-700 test for myself to get a clear image where my line comes from, beyond 17th century.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

J2B-l283 right, are there specific subclades that we know of that are Illyrian specific vs some that might have come with the Slavs or Proto-Albanians.

A fb friend claimed that most were "Moessian" but i dont see how could he differentiate them

Any rumors of samples coming from Macedonia? Bronze Age, Iron Age? What's happening out there?

 

[Denxz]

Shkoder and other toponyms in Albania / Montenegro show Albanian sound changes since the Roman period . As do toponyms in the Central Balkans from what I have read. Possibly some movements of people that got there later too but these went the other direction too. So no, definitely not a language that arrived here when you Slavs got here. This is maybe what you wish but certainly far from reality.

Also just go on theapricity and you can see what a bunch of Illyrian wannabes most of these Balkan Slavs are . They are almost pathetic and they attack Albanians too. These samples from Croatia IA don't even plot like Illyrians because they are mixed with a bunch of R-L2 tribes firstly , secondly Croatia shows a huge shift during the Roman period towards the east. Modern Croats are probably more East med than modern Albanians. They absorbed the shit that was left there when they got there post 600-900 AD. But you had this Croat nut job on apecity that thought here people were Illyrians. Mentally unstable nut job. And started getting aggressive too, opening up threads about Albanians etc. ahaha

 

[norbert]

Clearly you're incorrect. We have numerous J2b-L283 almost exclusively found in Illyrian remains. We have the Southern Illyrian variety of J2b found between MBA to IA Albanians. We even have the upcoming Kamenice study where the preprint even showed that the 2 main branches of R1b found in Kamenice are those carried by Albanians. This preprint even noted the fact that there was little autosomal shift between these IA individuals and modern Albanians. We have 2 of the major 3 lineages among Albanians found in BA/IA Albania. The only missing link is E-V13.

So, I will say in the most polite way I can - you're full of it.

I'm always amazed at the confidence with which you project the genetic make-up of modern Albanians onto the Illyrians, as if there are hundreds of ancient samples, clearly identified as Illyrian. What we know about the Illyrian language is barely enough to identify it as Indo-European and the vast majority of linguists seems to support the theory that it belonged to the centum group, even though the centum-satem division no longer matters as it once used to. Albanian is a satem language but let's leave that out as a counter-argument. We have the issue of knowing almost nothing about the Illyrian language and its speakers being largely romanised by the 3rd century. How you're able to construct a direct continuity between Albanians and Illyrians on linguistic grounds is a secret only known to the average we wuz illyrianz- keyboard warrior. Genetic continuities do not exist either. In the best case scenario only partially. The ancient samples concern the old Roman province of Illyria and are predominantly tied to the coastal areas of Dalmatia. They don't tell us anything about the ethnic or linguistic identities of those people. J2b-L283 is obviously dominant among those samples but it is too premature (and immature, if I may add) to make such grand conclusions from just a few geographically limited samples. They seem to match with the Liburnian samples and the latter were not Illyrian but related to the Adriatic Veneti. The prevalence of J2b-L283 among those samples may be owed to the possibility that those people were family members. A lot of factors have to be weighed in. I believe that the diffusion of J2b-L283 is likely to decrease the more you move into the Dalmatian hinterland where clades of R1b and I2a may increase instead. The most likely candidates as R1b subclades are R1b-U152 and R1b-L2. As for I2a, I'm not trying to say that the South Slavs inherited them. No, the I2a subclades among South Slavs clearly arrived with the Slavic migrations from Western Ukraine or Southeastern Poland. I2a has a long history in Europe and Balkans in particular. It is the haplogroup of mesolithic Europeans after all and prominently present in the Iron Gates culture, just to name an example.

Why is J2b-L283 so high among Albanians? Perhaps it should have occured to you that the Albanians may have assimilated the descendants of the long romanised Illyrians that were living in present-day Albania. The Albanians were a relatively small population and founder effects lead to a unusually increase in the share of this or that haplogroup. Slavs assimilated Paleo-Balkanic groups, Albanians assimilated Slavs, Greeks assimilated Albanians. I'm sure the high amount of E-V13 among Greeks has Albanian roots and E-V13 is believed to have spread from the Eastern Balkans. There is some truth in Fallmerayer's theory that modern Greeks are actually hellenised Albanians, albeit grossly exaggerated.

To return to the question of language. Albanian shares a substrate with Romanian. Almost half of the Albanian vocabulary is composed of Latin borrowings and when I say Latin, I mean the Vulgar Latin idiom that eventually became Romanian. It is also strange that the Albanian sea-related vocabulary is mainly Latin in origin. That shouldn't be the case with a people that dwelled on the Adriatic coast since time immemorial. Ancient Greek words are minimal and most Greek borrowings stem from Koine. That shouldn't be the case either if the Albanians and Greeks had been neighbours in antiquity. There is no doubt that the Albanians are a Paleo-Balkanic people but they migrated from the eastern Balkans to the Adriatic coast. There is also the case of the unusual amount of Slavic toponyms in Albania. This doesn't mean that we're talking about "Slavic land" here but a rather depopulated area before the arrival of the Slavs. This kind of questions the demographic continuity Illyrian=Albanian.

None of this makes Albania less your homeland. The Albanians are at home where they live today and no one seriously disputes that. The search for your origins should be a matter of scientific curiosity, not that of an identity crisis. You also don't have to respond to some lunatic "theories" like the one claiming the Albanians came from the Caucasus. That is obviously politically motivated nonsense with no basis in scientific facts. But the militant insistence on this Illyrian dogma is equally nonsensical. I have nothing against the Albanians being Illyrians. Maybe one day the facts will support that but from what we know now, this is far from the truth and you're making the quest harder by obstructing it with your nationalist dogma.

 

[Denxz]

Nowhere are any of the tribes in Croatia mentioned as Illyrian in the Illyri proper dicti

Pliny the Elder in his work Natural History used the term "properly named Illyrians" (Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti) for a small group of people between Epidaurum (now Cavtat) and Lissus (now Lezhë).[1][2] "... this region contained the Labeatae, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, properly called Illyrians, and Taulantii and Pyraei," he said. (Latin: ... eo namque tractu fuere Labeatae, Senedi, Rudini, Sasaei, Grabaei; proprie dicti Illyri et Taulantii et Pyraei.)[3][4]

Pomponius Mela tells different details, but makes the same point: " The Parthenes and Dassaretae come first, follow the Taulanti, Enchelei, Phaeaci. From there are these (who are) properly called Illyrians." (Latin: Partheni et Dassaretae prima tenent: sequentia Taulantii, Encheleae, Phaeaces. Dein sunt quos proprie Illyrios vocant).[4]

Illyrii proprie dicti - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Although they were probably such at one point such as the Dalmatians and Pannonians, but there were other non-Illyrian tribes there, while Dardania was a Thracian-Ilyrian mix. The actual original Illyrians certainly were never that west plotting as those in Croatia. That is completely nonsense. Compared to the Bronze Age R1b-Z2103 and the J-L283 Cetina males they shift way more west. We still lack samples from Serbia and Bosnia and other areas. But the J-L283 in Croatia do show shared snps with the R1b samples from Macedonia. So the R1b and J-L283 came down into the southern Balkans as part of the same population wave from the north or something like that possibly. And this is where they met E-V13 too possibly in some of these areas eventually. In the North you also had R-L2 tribes during the Late Bronze Age.

 

[Denxz]

As for Albanian sound changes, care to explain some of these ?

Bojana_(river)
Ulcinj
Drin_(river)
Ishëm_(river)
Drisht
Šar_Mountains
Ohrid
Lipjan
Prizren

An Adriatic intermediary for some of these such as Ishem and Drisht as proposed by Matzinger doesn't indicate they were picked up yesterday, also what about Albanian and Messapic ? Albanian also has Thracian influence but Thracians lived in the vicinity of Illyrians so this is no surprise.

You also seem to forget E-V13 was found in Nish , so we got J-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 all found within Albanian historically inhabited lands.

 

[Denxz]

Wilkes, John (1996). The Illyrians. Wiley. p. 244. ISBN 9780631146711. The name of the Delmatae appears connected with the Albanian word for 'sheep' (delmë)

Croats in panic Haha .

 

[boriss]

Sadly it's really undeveloped field, there are 2 - 3 articles on contemporary Macedonians but none on Ancients.
But there are no lack of samples to be investigated.

Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis has thousands of graves both inhumation and cremation of which 3500 were investigated, its safely to assume that thousands can be tested.

Its also 139km from Aigai/Vergina.


I think the following are taken out of Lazaridis Southern Arc, took them from poreklo.

I10381	765-489 calBCE	MKD_Anc	Govrlevo-Skopje	C-V86	C1a2
I10166	500-100 BCE	MKD_Anc	Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis	E-L618	E1b1b1a1b1
I10390	410-378 calBCE	MKD_Anc	Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)	G-Z6494	G2a2a1a2a1a1
I10392	500-100 BCE	MKD_Anc_outlier1	Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis	J-BY94	J1a2b2b~
I10388	795-567 calBCE	MKD_Anc	Plaosnik-Ohrid	J-Y13128	J2a1a2b2~
I10384	700-500 BCE	MKD_Anc	Plaosnik-Ohrid	J-Y13128	J2a1a2b2~
I10377	700-500 BCE	MKD_Anc	Bucinci-Skopje	R-M269	R1b1a1b
I10167	193-50 calBCE	MKD_Anc_outlier2	Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)	R-M269	R1b1a1b
I8112	783-549 calBCE	MKD_Anc	Lisicin Dol, Marvinci, Valandovo	R-CTS1450	R1b1a1b1b3a1a
I7231	1371-1123 calBCE	MKD_BA	Dimov Grob, V. Ulanci-Gradsko	R-CTS7556	R1b1a1b1b3a1a

Any rumors of samples coming from Macedonia? Bronze Age, Iron Age? What's happening out there?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

We know about those samples. Was hoping to see if you knew anything about future samples.

 

[Denxz]

Let's take a look at Pulaha here:

This is further proof of the auctochthony of the Albanians in the regions of Kosova, Montenegro and Macedonia. Some of the ancient names of these areas are preserved as appellatives in the Albanian language. For example, the name Dardania itself (the territory of contemporary Kosova was part of the ancient Kingdom known by that name) is explained with the Albanian Dardhë. Similarly, the name of Ulqin, from the ancient name Ulcinium is linked by the scientists to the word ulk, ujk, of the Albanian language. Other ancient toponyms that belong to the Albanian territories in the former Yugoslavia have evolved in accordance to the historical phonetic rules of the Albanian language. Such cases are Naissus-Nish, Scupi-Shkup, Astibos-Shtip, Scardus-Shar, Ulpiana-Lipjan and many more. The explanation of why these ancient names have arrived to us in the form they did, is that these territories have been inhabited by Albanians continuously and not intermittingly. The presence of an Albanian speaking population has been preserved mostly in the names of the towns. This evidence demonstrates that the Albanian population could not have been made up of shepherds sheltered in the highlands or the mountains. Quite on the contrary, that population was urbanized and apparently with an advanced standard of living for its time.

Among other factors, the ancient toponomastic data, such as the contemporary names of places used by Slavs, which are explainable only through the phonetic rules of the ancient Albanian language, has convinced scientists that these territories were inhabited by Albanians. Distinguished linguists such as Norbert Jokl, Gustav Weygand, and Petrovici, and even some Yugoslav scholars like Henrik Baric and others, have argued that it was precisely the Dardania, defined as an enclave by the use of the ancient names such as Nish, Shkup, Shtip that was one of the centers of the formation of the Albanian people.

Although sometimes he tends to overestimate the role played by the Roman-Romanian population in the Balkans, Petrovici has affirmed that “the population found by the Slavs in the Eastern region of contemporary Serbia was not Romanized.” One of the arguments brought by Petrovici to support his theory are the contemporary names of the cities mentioned above. Linguists like Van Wejk have concluded that according to the toponymical arguments, the separation of the Serbs and Bulgarians from a non-Slavic population in the early Middle Ages, could be explained only with the presence of the Albanian population in these areas. According to him, the presence of a population which had Romanic origins belonged to a later phase of the Slav expansion. Some of these scholars, particularly Henrik Baric, have convincingly demonstrated this through the study of the ancient and medieval onomastic of the Dardania. Examining these ancient toponyms, Baric argues that,

“the phonetic characteristics show that they are ancient names that Southern Slavs have taken through the Albanian language. The reason for making this argument is that in these toponyms we find that the phonetic changes were performed before the arrival of the Southern Slavs in the historic territories of the Albanians.”

As we can see, Dardania was a center of formation for the Albanian ethnie and the Albanian language; an enclave where the Albanian language evolved without suffering the influence of the Slav languages surrounding it. Many scientists explain the intensive contacts between the Albanian and Romanian languages precisely through the ancient and the uninterrupted presence of Albanians in these areas. Under these conditions, the expansion of the Serb State in Kosova, during the twelve century onward was by no means a ‘liberation’ of the Serb lands but an annexation and occupation of Albanian territories.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I kind of knew something was brewing when rrenjet had capitulated on the continuity theory. Even their most fanatical and most kembngules members have reincarnated under new usernames preaching their new found Dardanian faith.

Sounds like the news ain't good.

"Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians" paper

Well,J2a is near 30% only in greek islands.In south Greece it is 12-16%,and in the north 8-12%.The percentage of J2a in ancient greece was around 40-50%(I have checked it by seeing ALL the studies).That means that we are around 28-36% ancient Greek by Y-DNA.That of course means that there is not...

www.eupedia.com

Pretty weird for a Serb to drop this alert on a Albanian thread, other people live in the Balkans. Revelations incoming?

 

[ioas]

I kind of knew something was brewing when rrenjet had capitulated on the continuity theory. Even their most fanatical and most kembngules members have reincarnated under new usernames preaching their new found Dardanian faith.

Sounds like the news ain't good.

"Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians" paper

Well,J2a is near 30% only in greek islands.In south Greece it is 12-16%,and in the north 8-12%.The percentage of J2a in ancient greece was around 40-50%(I have checked it by seeing ALL the studies).That means that we are around 28-36% ancient Greek by Y-DNA.That of course means that there is not...

www.eupedia.com

Pretty weird for a Serb to drop this alert on a Albanian thread, other people live in the Balkans. Revelations incoming?

The news isn't good for them or for you guys ?

 

[mount123]

The news isn't good for them or for you guys ?

Not sure how well read or aware you are of the old continuous propaganda bs that comes and has come from them and their state aparatus with regards to us, but to say it how it is: no Paleo-Balkan paper is bad news to Albanians on the contrary it is great news as they are very relevant to us since we are Paleo-Balkan.

We already have a clear picture of our lineages during antiquity (some clearer than others). Main revelation could concern E1b-V13 I guess but there has been so much speculation about it that one theory has to turn out to be right

 

[mount123]

I kind of knew something was brewing when rrenjet had capitulated on the continuity theory. Even their most fanatical and most kembngules members have reincarnated under new usernames preaching their new found Dardanian faith.

Sounds like the news ain't good.

"Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians" paper

Well,J2a is near 30% only in greek islands.In south Greece it is 12-16%,and in the north 8-12%.The percentage of J2a in ancient greece was around 40-50%(I have checked it by seeing ALL the studies).That means that we are around 28-36% ancient Greek by Y-DNA.That of course means that there is not...

www.eupedia.com

Pretty weird for a Serb to drop this alert on a Albanian thread, other people live in the Balkans. Revelations incoming?

How so? A pret që ni artikull i till do jet interesant per sllavet qe na rrethekojn? Ndoshta makedonet e lashtë kan ken sllavë

It is rather weird how people are putting such high trust in some sketchy account. Better double check sources when it comes to rumors regarding upcoming papers.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

How so? A pret që ni artikull i till do jet interesant per sllavet qe na rrethekojn? Ndoshta makedonet e lashtë kan ken sllavë

It is rather weird how people are putting such high trust in some sketchy account. Better double check sources when it comes to rumors regarding upcoming papers.

I'm hoping it is a novel study and not the Danubian Frontier paper. The poster did not make this clear even when asked, but if the samples from the "whole Balkans" are new, this is huge. There might even be samples from Kosovo, I hope so. If this is a new study, we are talking about at least 500 samples, maybe more.

I am pointing out to rrenjets pubic relations rep going on Facebook openly endorsing the "Dardanian" theory for a while now. Entertain the dumbest and most stubborn of their team has been become born again Dardanian, some his of post got deleted, but he agreed with our earlier arguments but was angry about it(cursed me for it). The odd behavior from their team hints the data is not in their favor and the communist gobbledegook historical revisions they set out to prove. They used to be confident and annoying(not just here), now they have largely shut the f up. Their energy is different. So something is up.

Recall the first Albanians samples were taken in 2018 and got published in southern Arc. Sampling must have accelerated since then(2018).

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Not sure how well read or aware you are of the old continuous propaganda bs that comes and has come from them and their state aparatus with regards to us, but to say it how it is: no Paleo-Balkan paper is bad news to Albanians on the contrary it is great news as they are very relevant to us since we are Paleo-Balkan.

We already have a clear picture of our lineages during antiquity (some clearer than others). Main revelation could concern E1b-V13 I guess but there has been so much speculation about it that one theory has to turn out to be right

The Serbian poster announced this paper in Albanian topic thread, what reasons to do this unless Alb specific clades will show up. Let's hope we only have to wait two weeks.

 

[epirus1000]

Not sure how well read or aware you are of the old continuous propaganda bs that comes and has come from them and their state aparatus with regards to us, but to say it how it is: no Paleo-Balkan paper is bad news to Albanians on the contrary it is great news as they are very relevant to us since we are Paleo-Balkan.

We already have a clear picture of our lineages during antiquity (some clearer than others). Main revelation could concern E1b-V13 I guess but there has been so much speculation about it that one theory has to turn out to be right

In any case it it a good news for Albanians! It can be a good news, a great news, or an excellent news!!!

 

[epirus1000]

I'm hoping it is a novel study and not the Danubian Frontier paper. The poster did not make this clear even when asked, but if the samples from the "whole Balkans" are new, this is huge. There might even be samples from Kosovo, I hope so. If this is a new study, we are talking about at least 500 samples, maybe more.

I am pointing out to rrenjets pubic relations rep going on Facebook openly endorsing the "Dardanian" theory for a while now. Entertain the dumbest and most stubborn of their team has been become born again Dardanian, some his of post got deleted, but he agreed with our earlier arguments but was angry about it(cursed me for it). The odd behavior from their team hints the data is not in their favor and the communist gobbledegook historical revisions they set out to prove. They used to be confident and annoying(not just here), now they have largely shut the f up. Their energy is different. So something is up.

Recall the first Albanians samples were taken in 2018 and got published in southern Arc. Sampling must have accelerated since then(2018).

We might have some good news regarding Dardanians.
I'm recalling Professor Goddard mentioning that you can find a percentage of Dardanians all over Europe. Moreover President Macron some days ago mentioning in Albania, that you were here part of Europe. So, there might be some french contribution in this study, if it is related to that.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

You are out of touch with reality. Rrenjet is pretending E-V13 is Illyrian through a nebulous and charitable definition of Dardania. You and rrenjet have are living in a separate artificial reality just as it was during Marxist times when outlandish historical literature was written.

 

[epirus1000]

You are out of touch with reality. Rrenjet is pretending E-V13 is Illyrian through a nebulous and charitable definition of Dardania. You and rrenjet have are living in a separate artificial reality just as it was during Marxist times when outlandish historical literature was written.

I am not sure why are you putting Marxist times or outlandish stuff.
The main important thing is to settle the EV13. It could be in Dardania, and it could be in Dacia or Macedonia! Whatever is fine!!!
That will resolve many issues and will define may things. It could be a combination of Illyrians to Dacians, Illyrian to Dardanians or Illyrians to Macedonians.
It will push research to similarities between languages of the two until now different groups, but as it may appear closer than it was before thought.