Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[PaleoRevenge]

I am not sure why are you putting Marxist times or outlandish stuff.

Enver Hoxha period, 3rd world tier interpretations, just plain historical fantasies.

The main important thing is to settle the EV13. It could be in Dardania, and it could be in Dacia or Macedonia! Whatever is fine!!!

It's already been found in Macedonia near the Thracian border. It is guaranteed to be found in Dacia and anywhere Daco-Thracians lived including eastern part of Dardania. And that is the point, E-V13 is Daco-Thracian.

That will resolve many issues and will define may things. It could be a combination of Illyrians to Dacians, Illyrian to Dardanians or Illyrians to Macedonians.

Believe you me, it will become crystal clear to everyone once more data settles it. But I am certain rrenjet and co will ignore the consensus and live in their own la la land, isolate themselves just like in marxist days of Enver.

It will push research to similarities between languages of the two until now different groups, but as it may appear closer than it was before thought.

More research is needed to study the non-existent similarity between Daco-Thracian and Illyrian because you badly need E-V13 to be Illyrian. Good point.

 

[epirus1000]

Enver Hoxha period, 3rd world tier interpretations, just plain historical fantasies.



It's already been found in Macedonia near the Thracian border. It is guaranteed to be found in Dacia and anywhere Daco-Thracians lived including eastern part of Dardania. And that is the point, E-V13 is Daco-Thracian.



Believe you me, it will become crystal clear to everyone once more data settles it. But I am certain rrenjet and co will ignore the consensus and live in their own la la land, isolate themselves just like in marxist days of Enver.



More research is needed to study the non-existent similarity between Daco-Thracian and Illyrian because you badly need E-V13 to be Illyrian. Good point.

No one needs anything! The truth is needed and the truth will be.
There are links of Albanian to Messapian and links of Albanian to Romanian. Puglia.
Almost a quarter of all Balkans is EV13, and it appears to be the main haplogroup before the slavs came to Balkans, probably close to 35-45%, as it is in Kosova in modern times. 35-45% do not disappear. They will be soon in many upcoming studies.

 

[Balltari28]

Matzinger's idea is that Mat could be from ie. IE. *mn̥to

Since IE. n̥ yields /a/ in Albanian this is plausible.


Whereas IE. *mn̥to would have yielded different forms in Illyrian and Messapic:


Illyrian. Munt-
Messapic. Mant-

However, if this proposed etymology is wrong and it is related to old irish. math as Cabej argued, then it is possible this is just a loan word that Albanians took and not an inherited term.

Another example of Indo-European. *n̥ yielding Illyrian. /un/ in "Maluntum".


Were this toponym Albanian, it should have been **Malat- not Malunt- (*n̥ yields /a/ in Albanian).


Interestingly, the proposed etymology for Liburnian Brattia (Brač) sees *n̥ yield /a/ like Albanian.

Regardless, Matzinger is clear in his position:

"Për çështjen e prejardhjes së shqiptarëve dhe të shqipes, gjuhësia historike jep sidoqoftë një përgjigje të besueshme.


Sipas dëshmive të toponimisë në trojet e tyre të dokumentuara historikisht, shqiptarët janë të ardhur nga pjesa e brendshme e ballkanit."

How does n̥ yield only /a/ in Albanian? While it does lead to this sometimes, there are examples that are more similar to that of the Illyrian and Messapian outcomes provided. For examples:
PIE *h₁nómn̥ led to Alb Emën, with n̥ yielding an /ën/ here.
PIE *kn̥h₂ónks led to PA *kenagā and Alb. Kengjë, Qengjë, now yielding /en/.
PIE *mḗh₁n̥s led to Alb Muaj and (Mën)gjes, again yielding /ën/.

Now something to note is that n̥ also leads to /a/ in Albanian, as well as in Messapian, unlike what was said earlier. Look at both Albanian Avull (steam, vapor) and Messapian Ata-Abulus (Sorroco), both coming from PIE *n̥bʰelos. In this case, n̥ yields /a/ in both languages, not just Albanian.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Croats in panic Haha .

It's not sheep it's land or Dal'matians. Dal is land lad.

 

[Balltari28]

It's not sheep it's land or Dal'matians. Dal is land lad.

Source? I know it was originally written by Romans as Delmatia, not Dalmatia. Later on Serbs called the land Ovče Pole (Plain of Sheep). It cannot be from Dal- land, because it was never DALmatian to begin with. Some sources however disagree on both of theories and either claim to be Pre-Indo-European or of another root.

 

[aryaniti]

You are out of touch with reality. Rrenjet is pretending E-V13 is Illyrian through a nebulous and charitable definition of Dardania. You and rrenjet have are living in a separate artificial reality just as it was during Marxist times when outlandish historical literature was written.

Yeah these scumbags pretending that E-V13 farmers and J2b Mycaneans(or whatever) have anything to do with Illyrians is both hilarious and disgusting.
Only R1b is Illyrian and Albanian is descended from that.
And yes I am an Albanian(a proper one descended from R1b Illyrians) some coping butthurt loser(Hawk) accused me of being a Serb in another thread because these losers cannot handle the truth.

 

[Balltari28]

Interesting list of similar words!

There is some lack of verbs in the list but besides the meaning of Easter, paște in Romanian is also used as a verb, referring to horses, sheep, donkeys when eat, replacing the verb to feed.

I am curious how much is understood in Albanian of what I write now in Romanian:

Ia vino bre ! Un măgar paște lăstari pe baltă.

Variants:

Ia vin bre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă.

Iete măre ! Un măgar paște muguri pe baltă in amurg.

Iete bre ! Un măgar paște muguri in brădet.

Măgar = Magar
Baltă = Baltë
Vino = Vini (I think, not sure what form but I know the meaning)
Bre = Bre
Muguri = Mugull (?)
Măre = More

 

[lynxbythetv]

Source? I know it was originally written by Romans as Delmatia, not Dalmatia. Later on Serbs called the land Ovče Pole (Plain of Sheep). It cannot be from Dal- land, because it was never DALmatian to begin with. Some sources however disagree on both of theories and either claim to be Pre-Indo-European or of another root.

Del/Dal are the same Spain uses Del example Costa Del sol "of the". Surely the Romans named the area after a tribe that referred themselves as the Delmatians or perhaps a geographic feature. there could have been a carry over from one of the italic dialects that has long since been forgotten.

Linguists failed to note the obvious connection between Gaelic and Etruscan chances are the illyrians were just an offshoot of the Celts around Austria.

Del"of the" Scots Gaelic "me me" sound of sheep. Delmatian is Delmetian and it means sheep land. Sheep is Sugag in Scots Gaelic but me appears to be description the Illyrians used.

Delminium means "del"is of the flour/meal so it relates to turning wheat into flour or just another agriculture practice. Go to to link and put "min"

Ancient Macedonian Dalmana is the exact same etymology, it means of the farms. https://learngaelic.scot/dictionary/index.jsp?abairt=mànas&slang=both&wholeword=false

Illyrian etymology is easy.

 

[Balltari28]

Del/Dal are the same Spain uses Del example Costa Del sol "of the". Surely the Romans named the area after a tribe that referred themselves as the Delmatians or perhaps a geographic feature. there could have been a carry over from one of the italic dialects that has long since been forgotten.

Linguists failed to note the obvious connection between Gaelic and Etruscan chances are the illyrians were just an offshoot of the Celts around Austria.

Del"of the" Scots Gaelic "me me" sound of sheep. Delmatian is Delmetian and it means sheep land. Sheep is Sugag in Scots Gaelic but me appears to be description the Illyrians used.

Delminium means "del"is of the flour/meal so it relates to turning wheat into flour or just another agriculture practice. Go to to link and put "min"

Ancient Macedonian Dalmana is the exact same etymology, it means of the farms. https://learngaelic.scot/dictionary/index.jsp?abairt=mànas&slang=both&wholeword=false

Illyrian etymology is easy.

Again, there is no source for this etymology. Del in Spanish is a contraction or combination of "de el", also written as "d'el". Similarly, in Italian, "De", comes from "de il". De and El/Il both come from Latin, and they were not written as "del" during the life of the Illyrian language. By the time "del" arose amongst Romance languages, Delmatia had become mostly Romance as well.

chances are the illyrians were just an offshoot of the Celts around Austria.

Is absolutely wrong. There is nothing connecting the Illyrian language to the Celtic one, and this goes for their cultures as well. Illyrian culture is easier to study and it is different from that of Celtic. The language though is unattested and all we have are personal and place names, none of which can be related to Celtic, except for borrowings from it. No historian from that era ever stated they were related and were clear that they were separate people, with the Illyrians constantly fighting against them. The only Celtic tribes in Illyria were those in the very north who were not Illyrian at all.

The name could also be analyzed as *delm-atia, as the original tribal name was Delmatae, or *delm-atae. The ending is then related to Albanian suffix -at, meaning "place of", and is also related to the other Illyrian tribal names, like Autariatae, Bathiatae, Labeatae, Sardiatae, and Docleatae.

Assuming Illyrian is our ancestor, and assuming the dialect of the Delmatae had similar phonetic laws to Albanian, then one idea I had for the etymology of *del(m)- was from *ǵʰelh₃- (to flourish, green), possibly related to Alb. Diell (sun). Maybe from *ǵʰelmā meaning (pasture, field). This would then make Delmatae the "place of pastures/fields".

 

[epirus1000]

Again, there is no source for this etymology. Del in Spanish is a contraction or combination of "de el", also written as "d'el". Similarly, in Italian, "De", comes from "de il". De and El/Il both come from Latin, and they were not written as "del" during the life of the Illyrian language. By the time "del" arose amongst Romance languages, Delmatia had become mostly Romance as well.


Is absolutely wrong. There is nothing connecting the Illyrian language to the Celtic one, and this goes for their cultures as well. Illyrian culture is easier to study and it is different from that of Celtic. The language though is unattested and all we have are personal and place names, none of which can be related to Celtic, except for borrowings from it. No historian from that era ever stated they were related and were clear that they were separate people, with the Illyrians constantly fighting against them. The only Celtic tribes in Illyria were those in the very north who were not Illyrian at all.

The name could also be analyzed as *delm-atia, as the original tribal name was Delmatae, or *delm-atae. The ending is then related to Albanian suffix -at, meaning "place of", and is also related to the other Illyrian tribal names, like Autariatae, Bathiatae, Labeatae, Sardiatae, and Docleatae.

Assuming Illyrian is our ancestor, and assuming the dialect of the Delmatae had similar phonetic laws to Albanian, then one idea I had for the etymology of *del(m)- was from *ǵʰelh₃- (to flourish, green), possibly related to Alb. Diell (sun). Maybe from *ǵʰelmā meaning (pasture, field). This would then make Delmatae the "place of pastures/fields".

What about gjelber for green, or çel for blooming, somehow related to ǵʰelh₃

 

[lynxbythetv]

Again, there is no source for this etymology. Del in Spanish is a contraction or combination of "de el", also written as "d'el". Similarly, in Italian, "De", comes from "de il". De and El/Il both come from Latin, and they were not written as "del" during the life of the Illyrian language. By the time "del" arose amongst Romance languages, Delmatia had become mostly Romance as well.


Is absolutely wrong. There is nothing connecting the Illyrian language to the Celtic one, and this goes for their cultures as well. Illyrian culture is easier to study and it is different from that of Celtic. The language though is unattested and all we have are personal and place names, none of which can be related to Celtic, except for borrowings from it. No historian from that era ever stated they were related and were clear that they were separate people, with the Illyrians constantly fighting against them. The only Celtic tribes in Illyria were those in the very north who were not Illyrian at all.

The name could also be analyzed as *delm-atia, as the original tribal name was Delmatae, or *delm-atae. The ending is then related to Albanian suffix -at, meaning "place of", and is also related to the other Illyrian tribal names, like Autariatae, Bathiatae, Labeatae, Sardiatae, and Docleatae.

Assuming Illyrian is our ancestor, and assuming the dialect of the Delmatae had similar phonetic laws to Albanian, then one idea I had for the etymology of *del(m)- was from *ǵʰelh₃- (to flourish, green), possibly related to Alb. Diell (sun). Maybe from *ǵʰelmā meaning (pasture, field). This would then make Delmatae the "place of pastures/fields".

Irish Gaelic "Dal" basically tribe, people, place of the.
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/dál

Did the Illyrians even use "atae" are we sure tribal names aren't just using the Latin suffix "atus". There's also the Dematae in Briton so its not something unique to Illyrians. Your theories could also be correct aswell.

Let's have a look at the Ardiaei, an Illyrian tribe with no exact etymology perhaps a bird. Also believed to have originated inland.
Irish Gaelic. Ard. hill, height, top part. Seems like they just called themselves the hill people or they were designated as such.

Illyrians tribe Taulantii mentioned to be one the first. Matzinger is incorrect they did not call themselves the swallows.
Irish Gaelic. Talamh. Earth, ground.
Irish Gaelic. Ti. Marked line, Track.

Illyrians King. Ballaois.
Irish Gaelic. Balla. Wall, rampart.
Manx. Balla. Farm.
Ballaois's City Rhizon now known as Rison could be from the Albanian term "rrjedh" meaning stream, flow.
Irish Gaelic. Sreabh. Stream flow.
Irish Gaelic. Ri. King or little king.

*Please don't respond just yet I'm just getting started*

I would like too hear what exactly makes Illyrian culture so much different a d also are there any terms that albanians use today that are unique. Is the term for swamp, Mocal is that unusual ?.

 

[monster]

Once again, I totally agree and the data itself shows that Albanians are Paleo-Balkanic people, also that the most Illyrian admixture was preserved precisely among Albanians.


I just don't think their is language continuity or that most of the R1b precent was Illyrian or that EV-13 was main Dardanian carrier, if data shows me inccorect I am open for it nor i have hostility towards the idea.

In general i want to know specific haplogroup/subclades movement trough the Balkans and ages and centuries.
I want to eventually do Big-700 test for myself to get a clear image where my line comes from, beyond 17th century.

Illyrian shifted depends more on the person. Some people are more Illyrian shifted others not so much because they are much more mixed most probably or maybe they are Thracian shifted. I also noticed some people shift north-east due towards Bulgars, Macedonians etc. which indicates such admixture IMO.

How exactly is their supposedly not a language continuity ? There are obvious links with Albanian and Messapic and you'll find plenty of similarities with Illyrian and Thracian and I also think it has Thracian influence. There are even archaeology which shows a continuity from the Iron Age and Roman period. For example when Coon studied some of the Gheg highlanders he noticed they were still using tools from the Glasinac Mat Iron Age culture, he also noticed Thracian tools and Roman tools. Albanian not being Illyrian from the Adriatic coast doesn't mean it wasn't related or had such influence or that there is no continuity with other areas of the Balkans. Even that guy Matzinger and De vaan puts in the central Balkans. Also when the proto-Albanians came to Albania they picked up the name Albanoi etc.

E-V13 was in Eastern Dardania, South or Eastern Serbia etc. for sure and probably spread out from there or somewhere close there at one point. Albanian is an Indo European language after all and definitely linked to people who were R1b. And R1b was for sure one of the main carriers of the Dardanians, this is what all the genetic evidence will eventually show. We already got that R1b in Scupi. E-V13 they absorbed in their Eastern-Northern parts.

 

[monster]

These are the Y-DNA from Timacum Minus:

I15544 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 HV9
I15545 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis I1,I-Z58,I-Z59,I-CTS8647,Z60,Z140,Z141 H1
I15546 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597 L2a1+143+16189 (16192)
I15547 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283 H+152
I15548 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043 W+194
I15551 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis R1b-Z2103,R-Z2105 T1a
I15552 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis R1b-Z2103,R-M12149,R-Z2106,R-Z2108,R-Z2110,R-CTS7556,R-Y5592,R-CTS1450 H1c
I15553 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273 T2b25
I15554 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 H
I15555 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis G-P303,G-L140,G-PF3346,G-PF3345,G-CTS342,G-FGC12126 X2i+@225
I15556 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis H10d

J-L283, R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 dominated.

 

[monster]

I came across this book:

Trumper, John (2018). "Some Celto-Albanian isoglosses and their implications". In Grimaldi, Mirko; Lai, Rosangela; Franco, Ludovico; Baldi, Benedetta (eds.). Structuring Variation in Romance Linguistics and Beyond: In Honour of Leonardo M. Savoia. John Benjamins Publishing Company.

 

[Balltari28]

What about gjelber for green, or çel for blooming, somehow related to ǵʰelh₃

Gjelbër is from Latin Galbinus, maybe from older unattested *Gjelbën? Çel is from the Porto-Indo-European root *(s)kelH- meaning "to split, separate", hence, "to open".

 

[Balltari28]

Irish Gaelic "Dal" basically tribe, people, place of the.
https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fgb/dál

Did the Illyrians even use "atae" are we sure tribal names aren't just using the Latin suffix "atus". There's also the Dematae in Briton so its not something unique to Illyrians. Your theories could also be correct aswell.

Let's have a look at the Ardiaei, an Illyrian tribe with no exact etymology perhaps a bird. Also believed to have originated inland.
Irish Gaelic. Ard. hill, height, top part. Seems like they just called themselves the hill people or they were designated as such.

Illyrians tribe Taulantii mentioned to be one the first. Matzinger is incorrect they did not call themselves the swallows.
Irish Gaelic. Talamh. Earth, ground.
Irish Gaelic. Ti. Marked line, Track.

Illyrians King. Ballaois.
Irish Gaelic. Balla. Wall, rampart.
Manx. Balla. Farm.
Ballaois's City Rhizon now known as Rison could be from the Albanian term "rrjedh" meaning stream, flow.
Irish Gaelic. Sreabh. Stream flow.
Irish Gaelic. Ri. King or little king.

*Please don't respond just yet I'm just getting started*

I would like too hear what exactly makes Illyrian culture so much different a d also are there any terms that albanians use today that are unique. Is the term for swamp, Mocal is that unusual ?.

-atae was used by both Latin and Greek authors, and the Greeks used it prior to Latin-Illyrian contact, just in the form of -atai. There is no reason for Illyrian tribes to use Latin elements, especially when the names were older than their contact and many of them had bad relations with Rome.

The name of the Ardiaei was likely as Hardiaei, hence the variants of Ouardiaei and Vardiaei. This root *Hard- is related to Albanian Hardh "grape-vine" or "grape-branch".

Provide a source for the Taulanti people. You cannot just say their name is of this etymology and then give two words that make no sense being used as a tribal name. Taulantii, related to Dallënd-yshe, meaning "Swallow" in Albanian, makes a lot of sense as swallows were often used as totemic animals in southern Illyria, along with many other birds.

Ballaois could be related to Albanian Ballë "forehead" which is very often used to mean "front, leader, battefront", hence Balli Kombëtar, literally "National Front", during WW2. You also have Ballëtar- leader, Balltoj- I rule, reign, Balltim- Rule, domination. It could also be related to Balë "white spot on head", used in a very similar looking name, Balosh.

I do not know the origin of Sreabh, but if related to Albanian Rrjedh, it is probably a cognate from the same root.

Illyrian culture is not super easy to define, but every time proper Illyrians were compared to new Celtic migrant tribes, the differences became obvious. These can be in the form of personal and place names, battle armor, weaponry, pottery, patterns, jewelry, and so on. For example, the proper Illyrians often used oval shields while the Celts used more rectangular ones. The famous Illyrian helmet is rarely found in the North which has mainly Celtic influence.

Albanian Moçal is not a native term. It is borrowed from Proto-Slavic *močalъ. The native Albanian terms for swamp are lëgatë, ligatinë, and vurg. Lëgatë is likely related to Illyrian Lougeon.

 

[torzio]

reply to post 4109

All of these tribes origins are from modern Bosnia .......................Illyrian tribal names, like Autariatae, Bathiatae, Labeatae, Sardiatae, and Docleatae..................with Autariatae being the largest and disappearing from history once they formed the Illyrian kingdom in Montenegro along with the Hyllaei and Nesti ( bosnian tribes ) and a few other minor tribes.

So it makes little sense to claim any Albanian linguistically, unless you claim the Albanians came from middle Bosnia .............which would mean that as per ancient historians from Durres to the gulf of Corinth was originally Epirote lands

 

[torzio]

before and after the demise of the Epirotes from Durres .................the area of Albania was mostly Macedonian ...................we see this via Roman historical texts
The Via Egnatia was built by a Roman senator named Gnaeus Egnatius, who served as praetor with the powers of proconsul in the newly conquered province of Macedonia in the late 140s BCE. A milestone found near the place where the Via Egnatia crossed the Gallikos River, just west of Thessaloniki, is evidence for his activities. The bilingual inscription, now in the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki, correctly records a distance of 260 miles to Dyrrhachium (modern Dürres), the port on the Adriatic Sea where the road started.

There is Zero chance that the Romans would allow the hated Illyrians to settle anywhere near this major Roman road

 

[lynxbythetv]

-atae was used by both Latin and Greek authors, and the Greeks used it prior to Latin-Illyrian contact, just in the form of -atai. There is no reason for Illyrian tribes to use Latin elements, especially when the names were older than their contact and many of them had bad relations with Rome.

The name of the Ardiaei was likely as Hardiaei, hence the variants of Ouardiaei and Vardiaei. This root *Hard- is related to Albanian Hardh "grape-vine" or "grape-branch".

Provide a source for the Taulanti people. You cannot just say their name is of this etymology and then give two words that make no sense being used as a tribal name. Taulantii, related to Dallënd-yshe, meaning "Swallow" in Albanian, makes a lot of sense as swallows were often used as totemic animals in southern Illyria, along with many other birds.

Ballaois could be related to Albanian Ballë "forehead" which is very often used to mean "front, leader, battefront", hence Balli Kombëtar, literally "National Front", during WW2. You also have Ballëtar- leader, Balltoj- I rule, reign, Balltim- Rule, domination. It could also be related to Balë "white spot on head", used in a very similar looking name, Balosh.

I do not know the origin of Sreabh, but if related to Albanian Rrjedh, it is probably a cognate from the same root.

Illyrian culture is not super easy to define, but every time proper Illyrians were compared to new Celtic migrant tribes, the differences became obvious. These can be in the form of personal and place names, battle armor, weaponry, pottery, patterns, jewelry, and so on. For example, the proper Illyrians often used oval shields while the Celts used more rectangular ones. The famous Illyrian helmet is rarely found in the North which has mainly Celtic influence.

Albanian Moçal is not a native term. It is borrowed from Proto-Slavic *močalъ. The native Albanian terms for swamp are lëgatë, ligatinë, and vurg. Lëgatë is likely related to Illyrian Lougeon.

Your presentation of the ardiaei and its root meaning in Albanian would have to coincide with this tribe being involved in wine producing otherwise Ard is just a geographic cognate.

Taulumh is a great name for a tribe as it marks the boundaries of their domain. Too me it makes perfect sense without referring to themselves as the swallows. The cognate could have changed and what was once a name for tribal boundries was also used to represent a totem. Excellent hypothesis.

Albanian Balle is still an indo European cognate and directly relates too Balla. Forehead, Front, Wall, Farm (boundry) it's all the same. Bailey is used in English as a surname which correlates to official.

Here's another Liburnians. Burn means water in Scots Gaelic and surprisingly they were the ones known as pirates. Le is used in Gaelic aswell. Liburnians is just the water people. Even the Celtic god of the sea is Llyr....Llyrians.

Zadar formally known as Ladera allegedly borrowed from the pre Indo European people by the Liburnians. Irish Gaelic. Lad. Watercourse. Ladas. Self will, strong minded.

I'm not seeing any sort of disparity between the Celts and Illyrians sure they are different and by the stage they were in contact with the Celts their ethnogenesis had changed but the language is still apart of the Celtic language family tree either that or Germanic...

Wikipedia states the extinct Venetic language bares some similarities to Illyrian.

 

[torzio]

Illyrians where in Noricum................even the bronze age port of Vienna was illyrian as per unesco findings..................Vienna , though was Celtic but was built 500 plus years after the port of Vienna