Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Jupiter]

Closest ancient populations to Medieval Albania (sample ALB_Medieval:I13834)

0.02676662	Macedonia_IronAge:I10384
0.02910852	Macedonia_BronzeAge:I7231
0.02923818	Macedonia_IronAge:I10388
0.02928619	Albania_Bronze_Age:I14692
0.02956322	Albania_BronzeAge_IA:I16251
0.03116482	Macedonia_IronAge:I10385
0.03157762	SerbiaRomanTimacumSlog_E-BY3880_:I15544
0.03440040	SerbiaRomanTimacumSlog_E-CTS1273:I15553
0.03567174	SerbiaRomanTimacumSlog_J2b-Z597:I15546
0.03684935	Albania_BA_IA:I14690
0.03757364	Albania_BA_IA:I14688
0.03905464	Albania_IA:I16253

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Made an attempt to find Kazimierz Dobrowolski work on the Gorals and linguistic evidence he presented of Albanian influence. I did find a summary work but his main where he gives details to word cognates of Balkan origin is not possible to translate as the words cannot be copied and pasted, so I have no means of reading a translation.

Dwa studia nad powstaniem kultury ludowej w Karpatach Zachodnich. - MBC

mbc.malopolska.pl

In another much smaller paper he gives a summary of his opinion: "Romanian-Balkan elements in the folk culture of the Polish Carpathians"

agricultural population, which in the Pulsbach Carpathians occupied the valley bottoms and slopes suitable for agriculture and livestock farming. The author discusses the mechanism of this cross-breeding(mixing of two populations), which took place gradually over several centuries up to the 15th century under the pressure of the court authorities and within the framework of the patrimonial system. From the intersection of the pastoral waves with the agricultural population, the basic ethnographic territories in the Polish Carpathians emerged: 1) the Hutsul territory with the strongest contribution of the Romanian-Balkan element, and the weakest infiltration of the northern agricultural population, 2) the Bojko territory with a strong settlement share of the agricultural population flowing from the Dniester basin, 3) the Lemko territory resulting from the merger of the autochthonous Polish agricultural population with the pastoral wave, which in its later period acquired a Ruthenian character both as a result of earlier contacts with the population of Red Ruthenia and largely thanks to the church organization; this wave assimilated a certain part of the dispersed Polish population, 4) the territory of the Polish highlanders, which arose from the intersection of two agricultural waves: northern and southern from the side of Spisz with pastoral groups.

Kazimierz observation is from the 1930s when Poland ruled western Ukraine, Hutsuls, Lemkos and Boykos were Polish citizens. From that description he concluded the Hutsul to be the least Slavic. And he did this before there genetics, his conclusion must be made entirely of anthropological evidence.

The pastoral economy is further connected with the introduction to the Carpathians of some species of sheep and goats, characteristic of the Balkan countries, and a number of devices preserved even in the 19th century and partly today, which show significantrelationships with analogous devices in the Balkans and Transylvania (customs concerning the marching of sheep to the pastures in spring hut arrangements grazing and milk processing techniques).

The shepherd culture is also connected with Romanian-Balkan influences in the field of music, musical instruments (A. Chybiński), dance and crafts. It is enough to mention the striking kinship of Hutsul melodies with southern Slavic melodies or the Transylvanian sources (discovered by A. Chybiński) of some Podhale melodies.

An important role in the culture of the Polish Carpathians was played by the specific psychological dispositions of the pastoral group, closely related to its anthropological structure (artistic talents, love of freedom) and certain ideological attitudes of this population (the ideal of peasant freedom, ideas about robbery). The latter were the result of both the biological basis and specific existential conditions.

The linguistic contribution of the pastoral element to the dialects of the Polish Carpathians is not uniform, showing the greatest intensity among the Hutsul population. Cultural levelling is causing an increasingly strong shrinking of the stock of appellatives of Romanian-Balkan origin. In the Western Beskids and Podhale, these appellatives are today limited primarily to pastoral life, nicknames and words with a specific emotional connotation. The greatest durability is demonstrated by foreign names of places, people and animals. The intensity of Romanian and Balkan elements in the folk culture of the Polish Carpathians shows a close connection with the distribution and density of pastoral communities. Despite centuries of biological and cultural cross-breeding of the agricultural population with the pastoral population, certain areas with pure agricultural and livestock farming have been preserved in the Polish Carpathians. In these areas, Romanian-Balkan elementsoccur the weakest (e.g. in the Dukla and Śliska basins and in the Żywiec Basin). At the same time, in some areas, a significant liveliness of the pastoral economy is still visible today (e.g. Hutsul region. Osturnia(today Slovakia), a Ruthenian island in the ethnographically Polish Spiš, Ochotnicain the Gorce Mountains). These areas are also the main foci of Romanian-Halkan cultural influences.

Elementy rumuńsko-bałkańskie w kulturze ludowej Karpat Polskich - Podkrapacka Digital Library

Referat z Drugiego Zjazdu Sprawozdawczo Naukowego poświęconego Środkowym i Wschodnim Karpatom Polskim w Krakowie dnia 30 i 31 października 1938 roku. Sekcja Humanistyczna 2

pbc-rzeszow-pl.translate.goog

Not much was disclosed, but it gave leads for some ideas. I did look into Ochotnicain region which is Goral territory and the author noted it as a hotspot of Balkan heritage from a biological perspective. And it checks out, this is a very small region, easy search on Facebook yields plenty of photos (posted in group pages). These people are heavy on E-V13, and I am not sure if the Vlach brought it, they could be Hutsul derived but were lumped as Vlach historically.

 

[lynxbythetv]

Albanians are not Illyrians of that I'm convinced.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Albanians are not Illyrians of that I'm convinced.

Leaving aside the wording of your statement, which ofc Albanians are not Illyrians just like Italians are not Romans.
What exactly convinced you?

 

[lynxbythetv]

Leaving aside the wording of your statement, which ofc Albanians are not Illyrians just like Italians are not Romans.
What exactly convinced you?

Italians are at least descendants of Romans/Etruscans Albanians have minor R1B lineages at around 13%.

It's the same with modern Macedonians claiming to be descendants of the ancient ones, it's a larp.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Italians are at least descendants of Romans/Etruscans Albanians have minor R1B lineages at around 13%.

It's the same with modern Macedonians claiming to be descendants of the ancient ones, it's a larp.

And in what way are Albanians not descendent of Illyrians, if by the same metrics Italians are from the Romans?
35-40% of Albanians are split between R-M269 and L283. With the former present in Cinamak BA-IA Albania and Kamenica tumuli BA Albania, and the later being the overwhelming majority in Illyrian sites, and present in the Balkan BA from Croatia to Peloponnese).
At the same time Albanians show an autosomal signature not differentiable to the Cinamak samples bar the Slavic input, key here being modern Albanians being closer to BA inhabitants of Albania than modern Greeks to ancient Greeks, or Italians to Romans.
But then again, you did not answer the question... What exactly convinced you to the opposite?

 

[baz0ka]

Italians are at least descendants of Romans/Etruscans Albanians have minor R1B lineages at around 13%.

It's the same with modern Macedonians claiming to be descendants of the ancient ones, it's a

R1b in modern Albanians is not 13% but around 20% on average and 99% of it is from the Illyrian variant, stop spreading false information you troll. The only one who is larping is you as you are some troll seeking attention and to provoke so you invent theories and make nonsensical comparisons like that Macedonian thing, nice joke. Main lineages in Albos are from Illyrians and Thracians and linguists consider it related to Messapic and consider it to have developed in the West-Central Balkans where also non-slavic placenames are located that developed through Albanian. Stop spreading false information, you troll. Nobody cares about your irrelevant opinion. Thumbing up that other guy instead of arguing for your case shows what kind of a troll you are and making statements yet cannot back it up. Go somewhere else you troll.

 

[norbert]

Which clade of R1b is the "Illyrian variant"? R1b-L2? I'm only aware of a Balkanic branch of R1b, which is R1b-Z2103, obviously the dominant branch among Albanians today and the best candidate to represent the speakers of pre-proto-Albanian. But it is not a specifically Albanian branch, let alone Illyrian. It's simply a Yamnaya haplogroup that must have been present among the Illyrians but how much, we don't know. All the excavation sites attributed to the Illyrians so far seem to be dominated by J2b-L283. But were these people really Illyrians? What other features are there to help us identify these people as Illyrians? Does the dominance of J-L283 reflect the general population of the time, at least that inhabiting the coastal areas, or is it limited to an elite and their immediate kin? As for the presence of this haplogroup among the Albanians today, it represents a substrate the Albanians absorbed during their westward expansion. Those people were already romanised which may have been an additional source for the heavy Latin influence on the Albanian language. About 40% of its vocabulary is comprised of Latin loanwords. The Albanians are the remnants of a Paleo-Balkanic people that evaded full romanisation. This can only mean that they were nowhere near the Adriatic coast.

We have the names of Illyrian tribes and also some toponyms and hydronyms. None of them can be explained with an Albanian etymology. There was a pathetic attempt to derive the name of Dalmatia from Albanian delme meaning "sheep" but everyone knew it's BS. The name of Bosnia is also believed to derive from Illyrian. To explain its etymology, linguists had to resort to PIE. According to the most widespread theory, Bos(o)na means "running water" which makes sense considering that the country of Bosnia got its name from the eponymous river, known as Bathinus to the Romans. Again, it doesn't mean anything in Albanian. How about we move closer to Albania and try with Duklja (Montenegro) which got its name from the Roman city of Doclea, itself derived from the Illyrian tribe Docleatae. What exactly does Duklja/Doclea/Docleatae mean in Albanian? What about hydronyms like Neretva, Drina and its homonym in Albania, Drin? Cannot be explained with an Albanian etymology.

Moesia Superior is where the proto-Albanians came from. Call it the eastern fringes of Dardania if you want.

But Illyrians?

 

[Archetype0ne]

Cinamak BA-IA Albania - Illyrii proprie dicti:

R-PF7562 and R-Z2103:

• Cinamak EBA-IA Albania ~2000BC
• Kamenica BA Albania

L283:

• MBA Albania ~ 1800BC
• Dalmatia - BA-IA
• Croatia - BA-IA
• Serbia- BA-IA
• Montenegro- MBA-IA

L283 and Z2103 meanwhile are found also in Maros Serbia EBA as well as among the Messapians. The paternal haplogroup and autosomal connection and continuity between Messapians and Illyrians and modern Albanians is a fact. Furthermore multiple scholars in the field have argued about the connection between Messapic and Albanian. Messapic being a language we have multiple inscriptions from (More than Thracian and Illyrian combined). Wherever we have data, whether in DNA or linguistic fragments, the connection is self evident.

Albanian and other Paleo-Balkan languages had their formative core in the Balkans after the Indo-European migrations in the region.Ancestors of Albanian in antiquity is often thought to have been an Illyrian language for obvious geographic and historical reasons, but not proven, or otherwise an unmentioned Balkan Indo-European language that was closely related to Illyrian and Messapic. The Indo-European subfamily that gave rise to Albanian is called Albanoid in reference to a specific ethnolinguistically pertinent and historically compact language group. Whether descendants or sisters of what was called 'Illyrian' by classical sources, Albanian and Messapic, on the basis of shared features and innovations, are grouped together in a common branch in the current phylogenetic classification of the Indo-European language family.

Messapic is considered the closest language to Albanian, grouped in a common branch titled Illyric in Hyllested & Joseph (2022). Hyllested & Joseph (2022) in agreement with recent bibliography identify Greco-Phrygian as the IE branch closest to the Albanian-Messapic one. These two branches form an areal grouping – which is often called "Balkan IE" – with Armenian. The hypothesis of the "Balkan Indo-European" continuum posits a common period of prehistoric coexistence of several Indo-European dialects in the Balkans prior to 2000 BC.


A common prestage posterior to PIE comprising Albanian, Greek, and Armenian, is considered as a possible scenario. In this light, due to the larger number of possible shared innovations between Greek and Armenian, it appears reasonable to assume, at least tentatively, that Albanian was the first Balkan IE language to branch off. This split and the following ones were perhaps very close in time, allowing only a narrow time frame for shared innovations.

Albanian represents one of the core languages of the Balkan Sprachbund.

Cognates with Illyrian​

Andena, Andes, Andio, Antis	Personal Illyrian names based on a root-word and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces	Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish"[150]
aran	"field"	Alb. arë; plural ara[151]
Ardiaioi/Ardiaei	name of an Illyrian people	connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both stem, tree stalk and tribe, lineage.[citation needed]
Bilia	"daughter"	Alb. bijë, dial. bilë[152]
Bindo/Bindus	an Illyrian deity, cf. Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina	Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster"[153]
*bounon	"hut, cottage"	Alb bun[154]
*brisa	"husk of grapes"	Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *brutiā)[155]
Barba-	"swamp", toponym from Metubarbis	Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"[155]
Daesitiates	name of an Illyrian people	Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian or even Proto-Albanian.[150]
*mal	"mountain"	Alb mal "mountain"[156]
*bardi	"white"	Alb bardhë "white"[157]
*drakoina	"supper"	Alb. darke, dreke "supper, dinner"[158][page needed]
*drenis	"deer"	Alb. indef. dre, def. dreni "deer"[154]
*delme	"sheep"	Alb. dele, Gheg delme "sheep"[159]
*dard	"pear"	Alb. dardhë "pear"[160]
sīca	"dagger"	Alb indef. thikë or def. thika "knife"[161]
Ulc-	"wolf" (pln. Ulcinium)	Alb ujk "wolf", ulk (Northern Dialect)[162]
*loúgeon	"pool"	Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA * lauga), lëgatë "pool" ( < PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" ( < PA laugista)[163]
*mag-	"great"	Alb. madh "big, great"[155]
*mantía	"bramblebush"	Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)[citation needed]
rhinos	"fog, mist"	Old Alb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) ( < PA *rina)[164]
Vendum	"place"	Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)[158][page needed]

​

Furthermore the early borrowings in Albanians from early Greek and archaic Latin, safely place its location in the contact zones with the Greek and Latin world in the Western Adriatic:

Early linguistic influences​

The earliest loanwords attested in Albanian come from Doric Greek whereas the strongest influence came from Latin. Some scholars argue that Albanian originated from an area located east of its present geographic spread due to the several common lexical items found between the Albanian and Romanian languages. However it does not necessarily define the genealogical history of Albanian language, and it does not exclude the possibility of Proto-Albanian presence in both Illyrian and Thracian territory.

The period during which Proto-Albanian and Latin interacted was protracted, lasting from the 2nd century BC to the 5th century AD. Over this period, the lexical borrowings can be roughly divided into three layers, the second of which is the largest. The first and smallest occurred at the time of less significant interaction. The final period, probably preceding the Slavic or Germanic invasions, also has a notably smaller number of borrowings. Each layer is characterised by a different treatment of most vowels: the first layer follows the evolution of Early Proto-Albanian into Albanian; while later layers reflect vowel changes endemic to Late Latin (and presumably Proto-Romance). Other formative changes include the syncretism of several noun case endings, especially in the plural, as well as a large-scale palatalisation.

A brief period followed, between the 7th and the 9th centuries, that was marked by heavy borrowings from South Slavic, some of which predate the "o-a" shift common to the modern forms of this language group.

Early Greek loans​

There are some 30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Proto-Albanian. Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.

• drapër; "sickle" < (Northwest Greek) drápanon
• bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic mélitta "bee" (vs. Ionic mélissa)
• kumbull; "plum" < kokkúmelon
• lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < lákhanon "green; vegetable"
• lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < lápathon
• lyej; "to smear, to oil"< Proto-Albanian *elaiwanja < *elaiwa (olive oil) < Greek elaion
• mokër; "millstone" < (Northwest) mākhaná "device, instrument"
• mollë; "apple" < mēlon "fruit"
• pëllëmbë; "palm of the hand" < palámā
• pjepër; "melon" < pépōn
• presh; "leek" < práson
• trumzë; "thyme" < (Northwest) thýmbrā, thrýmbrē
• pellg; "pond, pool" < pélagos "high sea"

According to Huld (1986), the following come from a Greek dialect without any significant attestation called "Makedonian" because it was akin to the native idiom of the Greek-speaking population in the Argead kingdom

• llërë; "elbow" < *ὠlénā
• brukë; "tamarisk" < *mīrýkhā
• mëllagë; 'mallow' < *malákhā (with the reflex of /ɡ/ for Greek <χ> indicating a dialectal voicing of the what came as an aspirate stop from Greek)
• maraj "fennel" < *márathrion (cf Romanian mărar(iu), Ionic márathron; with the Albanian simplification of -dri̯- to -j- reflecting that of earlier *udri̯om to ujë "water")

Eqrem Çabej also noticed, among other things, the archaic Latin elements in Albanian:

1. Latin /au/ becomes Albanian /a/ in the earliest loanwords: aurum → ar 'gold'; gaudium → gaz 'joy'; laurus → lar 'laurel'. Latin /au/ is retained in later loans, but is altered in a way similar to Greek: causa 'thing' → kafshë 'thing; beast, brute'; laud → lavd.
2. Latin /oː/ becomes Albanian /e/ in the oldest Latin loans: pōmus → pemë 'fruit tree'; hōra → herë 'time, instance'. An analogous mutation occurred from Proto-Indo-European to Albanian; PIE *nōs became Albanian ne 'we', PIE *oḱtṓw + suffix -ti- became Albanian tetë 'eight', etc.
3. Latin unstressed internal and initial syllables become lost in Albanian: cubitus → kub 'elbow'; medicus → mjek 'physician'; palūdem 'swamp' → Vulgar Latin *padūle → pyll 'forest'. An analogous mutation occurred from Proto-Indo-European to Albanian. In contrast, in later Latin loanwords, the internal syllable is retained: paganus → pagan; plaga → plagë 'wound', etc.
4. Latin /tj/, /dj/, /kj/ palatalized to Albanian /s/, /z/, /c/: vitium → ves 'vice; worries'; ratiōnem → arsye 'reason'; radius → rreze 'ray; spoke'; faciēs → faqe 'face, cheek'; socius → shok 'mate, comrade', shoq 'husband', etc. In turn, Latin /s/ was altered to /ʃ/ in Albanian.

Haralambie Mihăescu demonstrated that:

• Some 85 Latin words have survived in Albanian but not (as inherited) in any Romance language. A few examples include Late Latin celsydri → dial. kulshedër → kuçedër 'hydra', hībernus → vërri 'winter pasture', sarcinārius 'used for packing, loading' → shelqëror 'forked peg, grapnel, forked hanger', sōlānum 'nightshade', lit. 'sun plant' → shullë(r) 'sunny place out of the wind, sunbathed area', splēnēticus → shpretkë 'spleen', trifurcus → tërfurk 'pitchfork'
• 151 Albanian words of Latin origin were not inherited in Romanian. A few examples include Latin amīcus → Albanian mik 'friend', inimīcus → armik 'foe, enemy', ratiōnem → arsye, benedīcere → bekoj, bubulcus 'ploughman, herdsman' → bulk, bujk 'peasant', calicis → qelq 'drinking glass', castellum → kështjellë 'castle', centum → qind 'hundred', gallus → gjel 'rooster', iunctūra → gjymtyrë 'limb; joint', medicus → mjek 'doctor', retem → rrjetë 'net', spērāre → dial. shp(ë)rej, shpresoj 'to hope', pres 'to await', voluntās (voluntātis) → vullnet 'will; volunteer'.
• Some Albanian church terminology has phonetic features which demonstrate their very early borrowing from Latin. A few examples include Albanian bekoj 'to bless' from benedīcere, engjëll 'angel' from angelus, kishë 'church' from ecclēsia, i krishterë 'Christian' from christiānus, kryq 'cross' from crux (crucis), (obsolete) lter 'altar' from Latin altārium, mallkoj 'to curse' from maledīcere, meshë 'mass' from missa, murg 'monk' from monachus, peshkëp 'bishop' from episcopus, and ungjill 'gospel' from ēvangelium.

Last but not least, the connection of Albanian as a direct vector from Yamnaya at this point is beyond argument

The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe, Lazaridis et al.

While at the same time, there is a paternal haplogroup and autosomal connection that links the Yamnaya to the proto-Illyrian population in the Balkans, and the proto-Illyrian population to the Illyrians proper, all the way to modern Albanians.

The above is a visual representation of the facts that we have that reflects the Early Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans into its continuity into the Illyrii proprie dicti, all the way to the modern Albanian population.

Hence, whatever data we have so far, in comparative linguistics as well as genetics:
1. Shows us the genetic link and development from the local cultures after they settled from the steppe.
2. Allows us to time the interactions in the pre-Roman era with the ancient Greeks and Romans through loan words.
3. Reflects cultural and genetic continuity.


Hope this helps inform some of your arguments, as long as they are not purely driven by hate.

 

[norbert]

Thanks for the impressive copy-paste lesson. Anyone who disagrees, must be driven by hate, of course. All I see here is a lot of cherry-picked authors with highly speculative, outdated theories. The non-Albanian emphasis is supposed to deflect from a nationalist bias. Not to mention that most of the "proposed etymologies" sound like folk or pseudo-etymology, akin to the popular Albanian translation or Shkoder as "look at the hill" which is nonsense, of course. Especially the ancient city of Scodra is a case against linguistic continuity. Its current Albanian form resulted from what linguists consider the second phase of phonetic shift that the Albanian language went through dating only to the Middle Ages.

Most of the "proposed etymologies" are half a century old and not supported by anyone today. It's also noticeable that most contributions to the study of Paleo-Balkanic languages come from non-Albanians in generals, not just your cherry-picked list. But looking at internet forums and social media, one could get the impression every Albanian holds a degree in history, linguistics, genetics and archeology. Not to mention the extreme hatred and racism against Slavs in general, not just Serbs.

A peculiarly laughable example of "proposed etymology" are the Liburnians. The liburna was a type of galley the Romans adopted from the Liburnians. The name of the Italian city of Livorno is derived from that kind of ship. It has nothing to do with Albanian. It's obviously a borrowing from Latin. Besides, the Liburnians are not even considered as Illyrians nowadays but are said to have been related to the Adriatic Veneti. As I've discussed earlier, people should distinguish between the Roman province of Illyria and Illyrians proper and we don't know anything about the latter. If we did, we wouldn't be having these debates.

 

[Archetype0ne]

snip

I mean. On the one hand I went out of my way to provide you both genetic sources, and even improved the linguistic arguments to the current state of the art with post-2020 scientific papers. I am not sure if you understand what using sources means, but It seems not.

On the other hand, you are mixing politics in this... and some supposed hatred for the Slavs. Last I checked Albanians have great relations with most Slavs in the Balkans bar Serbia or anyone that was involved in the war crimes dating back to 1870s, Balkan Wars with wounds as fresh as 1999. Not to mention that the Milosevic's Minister of Propaganda is slowly steering your nation to another catastrophe by not learning from history. Hard not to hate such politics.

PS: Per Matzinger, Scodra entered Proto-Albanian during the Roman era. It cannot be from after Late Antiquity, that is impossible.
You seem to be over-focusing on etymologies in academia like the one about Liburnians, who weren't even Illyrian. Etymologies like the one about the Taulanti (who were Illyrians) being related to the term dallëndyshe on the other hand enjoy broad consensus among modern scholars, but of course you wont mention that.

You see... the issue is that for generations you and your ilk have been victims of state sponsored propaganda, with an agenda on the backs of Albanians. Before this state driven drivel (Nacertanije) Albanians had a neutral to positive relation with Serbs in the middle ages.

But since this propaganda took hold that somehow Albanians are animals that live on trees and have tails that must be colonized, or some other insanities that Albanians came with Arabs in Sicily or with Ottomans from Azerbaijan and are non-native, and your institutions started using this as a casus belli to massacre as they please... Of course you have the devil up your ass when the facts about any Albanian - Illyrian connection in linguistics or genetics is mentioned. Since that would mean, metaphorically speaking, that the grave you dug your neighbor fits yourself by that same casus belli. No wonder the schizophrenia and cognitive dissonance.

So let me know if you wanna talk politics or hate, I can serve you.

 

[lynxbythetv]

R1b in modern Albanians is not 13% but around 20% on average and 99% of it is from the Illyrian variant, stop spreading false information you troll. The only one who is larping is you as you are some troll seeking attention and to provoke so you invent theories and make nonsensical comparisons like that Macedonian thing, nice joke. Main lineages in Albos are from Illyrians and Thracians and linguists consider it related to Messapic and consider it to have developed in the West-Central Balkans where also non-slavic placenames are located that developed through Albanian. Stop spreading false information, you troll. Nobody cares about your irrelevant opinion. Thumbing up that other guy instead of arguing for your case shows what kind of a troll you are and making statements yet cannot back it up. Go somewhere else you troll.

My sources are saying only as high as 14% none the less even 20% is not a Majority, you guys are majority EV13 that's not coinciding with any sort of Illyrian Hypothesis. I just find it bizzare that Albanians have latched onto this identity that does not reflect them as a whole. Just as an example take Brits or the pseudonym Anglos it doesn't mean they are 100% Anglo Saxon it just means it makes up a high percentage but there's also the local Brythonic population they mixed in with. No one really denies this no one claims the English are just Germans other than say the Irish, whom have considerable amount of Viking ancestry. Yet you guys from the Balkans all claim ethnic groups that make up a far smaller percentage of your ancestry. Here's a good one Thracians, described as red haired and blue eyed, this no longer exists. Modern Bulgarians have none of this ancestry unless we're to believe that they were EV13. Dacians, tall pale and blue eyes. Modern Macedonians are L, E and R1A where's the Thracian like ancestry. It's gone and vanished a very very long time ago.

 

[lynxbythetv]

I mean. On the one hand I went out of my way to provide you both genetic sources, and even improved the linguistic arguments to the current state of the art with post-2020 scientific papers. I am not sure if you understand what using sources means, but It seems not.

On the other hand, you are mixing politics in this... and some supposed hatred for the Slavs. Last I checked Albanians have great relations with most Slavs in the Balkans bar Serbia or anyone that was involved in the war crimes dating back to 1870s, Balkan Wars with wounds as fresh as 1999. Not to mention that the Milosevic's Minister of Propaganda is slowly steering your nation to another catastrophe by not learning from history. Hard not to hate such politics.

PS: Per Matzinger, Scodra entered Proto-Albanian during the Roman era. It cannot be from after Late Antiquity, that is impossible.
You seem to be over-focusing on etymologies in academia like the one about Liburnians, who weren't even Illyrian. Etymologies like the one about the Taulanti (who were Illyrians) being related to the term dallëndyshe on the other hand enjoy broad consensus among modern scholars, but of course you wont mention that.

You see... the issue is that for generations you and your ilk have been victims of state sponsored propaganda, with an agenda on the backs of Albanians. Before this state driven drivel (Nacertanije) Albanians had a neutral to positive relation with Serbs in the middle ages.

But since this propaganda took hold that somehow Albanians are animals that live on trees and have tails that must be colonized, or some other insanities that Albanians came with Arabs in Sicily or with Ottomans from Azerbaijan and are non-native, and your institutions started using this as a casus belli to massacre as they please... Of course you have the devil up your ass when the facts about any Albanian - Illyrian connection in linguistics or genetics is mentioned. Since that would mean, metaphorically speaking, that the grave you dug your neighbor fits yourself by that same casus belli. No wonder the schizophrenia and cognitive dissonance.

So let me know if you wanna talk politics or hate, I can serve you.

Are those Albanian cognates supposed to be Illyrian in origin...

 

[Archetype0ne]

Are those Albanian cognates supposed to be Illyrian in origin...

I reckon Thracians, Dacians, Macedonians, Illyrians ancient Greeks all spoke a very very similar dialect anyway.

Truth is we may never know. Thracian, Illyrian and Macedonian are very poorly attested. Yet on placename formation Albanian and Thracian are diametrically different, that is to say at the grammar level. Just like English is a Germanic language by virtue of Grammar despite ?70% of its lexicon coming from Romance. Even Matzinger agrees that the evidence does not support Albanian being descendant from Thracian.

On the other hand the only decently attested of these languages, namely Messapic, shows evident relation to Illyrian as well as Albanian. At the end of the day, the linguistic data we have, and linguistics as a whole can not settle such debate.

But. juxtapose that to the genetic link between Messapic and Illyrian samples, and their connection to modern Albanians through autosomal and Y clades... and that's where we are so far.

Before Cinamak, Kamenicë and Shkrel samples there might have been a doubt as to what proper Illyirans (Illyrii proprie dicti) would have looked like, despite the surrounding samples from Croatia, Dalmatia, Serbia etc. But once we got these samples spanning EBA-IA all the way to middle ages (900AD, around when the principality of Arbanon was first attested), in my mind there is little doubt.

PS: Since I saw you edited the post leaving just the first point. Yes those cognates are supposed to be Illyrian, you have the sources in the post, click on the numbers.

 

[epirus1000]

Thanks for the impressive copy-paste lesson. Anyone who disagrees, must be driven by hate, of course. All I see here is a lot of cherry-picked authors with highly speculative, outdated theories. The non-Albanian emphasis is supposed to deflect from a nationalist bias. Not to mention that most of the "proposed etymologies" sound like folk or pseudo-etymology, akin to the popular Albanian translation or Shkoder as "look at the hill" which is nonsense, of course. Especially the ancient city of Scodra is a case against linguistic continuity. Its current Albanian form resulted from what linguists consider the second phase of phonetic shift that the Albanian language went through dating only to the Middle Ages.

Most of the "proposed etymologies" are half a century old and not supported by anyone today. It's also noticeable that most contributions to the study of Paleo-Balkanic languages come from non-Albanians in generals, not just your cherry-picked list. But looking at internet forums and social media, one could get the impression every Albanian holds a degree in history, linguistics, genetics and archeology. Not to mention the extreme hatred and racism against Slavs in general, not just Serbs.

A peculiarly laughable example of "proposed etymology" are the Liburnians. The liburna was a type of galley the Romans adopted from the Liburnians. The name of the Italian city of Livorno is derived from that kind of ship. It has nothing to do with Albanian. It's obviously a borrowing from Latin. Besides, the Liburnians are not even considered as Illyrians nowadays but are said to have been related to the Adriatic Veneti. As I've discussed earlier, people should distinguish between the Roman province of Illyria and Illyrians proper and we don't know anything about the latter. If we did, we wouldn't be having these debates.

Greeks having around 10-15% J2a have like thousands of articles showing their genetic continuity. Albanians can't do that.
We are lucky to have Italians that were fair to find and study the Messapian words. However, the majority of proto-Albanian areas are actually not interested to uncover stone writings that could be related to Albanian language, especially those being in Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia, which might hold a fair share of possible artifacts.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

However, the majority of proto-Albanian areas are actually not interested to uncover stone writings that could be related to Albanian language, especially those being in Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia, which might hold a fair share of possible artifacts.

LMAO. Serbo-Croatian languages have like zero Albanian derived words, the few they do have are recent borrowings, nothing suggests they settled in a Albaphone area. lol the delusions.

 

[epirus1000]

LMAO. Serbo-Croatian languages have like zero Albanian derived words, the few they do have are recent borrowings, nothing suggests they settled in a Albaphone area. lol the delusions.

How can they have Albanian words, when they erased any population present in those areas? They erased the Illyrians, hence they don't have any Illyrian word in their language. I'm using Illyrian in this case, as you are a strong supporter of Albanians flown from Moon to Balkans recently

 

[PaleoRevenge]

How can they have Albanian words, when they erased any population present in those areas? They erased the Illyrians, hence they don't have any Illyrian word in their language. I'm using Illyrian in this case, as you are a strong supporter of Albanians flown from Moon to Balkans recently

Yeah the moon between Nis and Sofia. Explain how such low IQ can hold government position in a country.

How can they have Albanian words, when they erased any population present in those areas?

Wow they could not pick a single word. Amazing, while Bulgarians somehow did manage to. Bulgarians must have learned those from what rrenjet calls Dardania cluster.

 

[Veriu]

LMAO. Serbo-Croatian languages have like zero Albanian derived words, the few they do have are recent borrowings, nothing suggests they settled in a Albaphone area. lol the delusions.

Croatian and Serbian come from Slavs of the northern Balkans, so why would they have many Albanian loanwords? That being said, Bulgarian doesn't have more Albanian derived words than Serbian. Albanian was not spoken in the northern Balkans or near Sofia.

Gorani in Kosova and the Zeta dialect in Montenegro have many Albanian loanwords because they formed in contact with Albanian. This is where the Albanophone area was, not in Sofia, Belgrade or Zagreb.

 

[Veriu]

My sources are saying only as high as 14% none the less even 20% is not a Majority, you guys are majority EV13 that's not coinciding with any sort of Illyrian Hypothesis. I just find it bizzare that Albanians have latched onto this identity that does not reflect them as a whole. Just as an example take Brits or the pseudonym Anglos it doesn't mean they are 100% Anglo Saxon it just means it makes up a high percentage but there's also the local Brythonic population they mixed in with. No one really denies this no one claims the English are just Germans other than say the Irish, whom have considerable amount of Viking ancestry. Yet you guys from the Balkans all claim ethnic groups that make up a far smaller percentage of your ancestry. Here's a good one Thracians, described as red haired and blue eyed, this no longer exists. Modern Bulgarians have none of this ancestry unless we're to believe that they were EV13. Dacians, tall pale and blue eyes. Modern Macedonians are L, E and R1A where's the Thracian like ancestry. It's gone and vanished a very very long time ago.

Setting aside the unresolved V13 question, confirmed directly inherited Illyrian Y-DNA is more than 1/3 (L283 and west Balkan R1b) in Albanians (in some regions it's more than 50%), which is much higher than direct Y-DNA ancestry of Greeks from ancient Greeks or Hungarians from Magyars. It is similar to direct Y-DNA ancestry of Bulgarians from Slavs or Austrians from Germanic tribes. You wouldn't doubt that Bulgarians are a Slavic ethnic group or that Austrians are part of the Germanic people, would you?

Naturally, ethnic groups develop and incorporate new elements which is a natural and necessary process in history. Groups which don't expand, incorporate new elements and never change are the ones that die out eventually. There's no European ethnic group today which has 100% Y-DNA ancestry from its Iron Age ancestors who spoke an early version of the modern language. Albanians are not different and it doesn't change the fact that all Albanians today have direct (Y-, mt-) or indirect (autosomal) ancestry from an original Albanian-speaking group which was part of the historical Illyrians.