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Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

Illyrian bra is much closer to Slavic and nowhere near Albanian. If Messapi spoke an Albanoid language their texts would be translated by now. Yet the quest is a dead-end.

Riverman's theory about Cotofeni here is interesting, as a Yamanaya descended group that did undergo some sort of overhaul and restructuring so as not to simply be a linear transmission of Yamnaya (unlike the western balkan inhuming groups which are much more straightforward Yamnaya descendants).
History

Yamnaya package adopted by a non-IE people, agreed. Naturally it would have its own style/touch and interpretations of everything from language to tribal system.
 
If Messapi spoke an Albanoid language their texts would be translated by now. Yet the quest is a dead-end.
The ~600 messapic inscriptions are almost entirely funerary, i.e. they are just personal names of the deceased.

Only a few are a bit longer votives, or ritual like the ana aprodita one.

There is no "text" as such waiting to be translated.
 
Cotofeni had kind of two big steppe contacts:
1) Early Western steppe like from Suvorovo, Usatovo-Gorodsk and probably mainly Cernavoda I.
2) Yamnaya and Vucedol which helped to initiate the formation of Gornea-Orlesti-Foeni.

The latter is most likely the last common layer for all Thracians and the bulk of E-V13 before many splits, especially North vs South.
That common phase ended between 2200-1900 BC.
 
As for the indo-europeanisation question, if you look at "bur-" names that appear among both Thracians and Dacians (in tribal names like Buri, Buridensi, personal names like Buris, Burilas, Burebista, Mukaburi and toponyms like Buridava, Burikodava,) these are one of the most attested names we find among them, and linguists have always connected them with Albanian. Burrë (man) since the early days of indo european philology. Despite this, the implications have rarely been understood.

We know that culturally this word had a very high relevance in Albanian history (one of the the earliest attested Albanian language names is burmazi (burrëmadhi, big-man), and would have had even more so in the pre-Christian era of proto-Albanians.

Concepts like "burrni" (manhood, honour, ) and "besa" (oath, faith, etc) would have been central to the pre-Christian IE cultural/religious package of patrilineal Albanian clans.

So we should expect this word to appear among proto-Albanian anthroponymy.

The fact that it appears so frequently among Thracians and Dacians is an indication that this is in the similar phylogenetic group as proto-Albanian, as it is not just an etymologically shared word but a corresponding cultural significance of that word.

There are also other aspects such as the singular path of E-V13 indo-europeanisation for which there is no other true analogue among the indo-european cases so far. Branches like I1 among germanics don't dominate in the way that E-V13 does, and it is clear that culturally there was something singular about the Daco-Thracian group.

Albanian likewise has so many idiosyncracies as an IE group that for me suggest a singular path (i.e. things like the word "motër" in Albanian meaning sister, whereas in every other IE language this stem results in a word that means "mother". This has challenged linguists for a long time and a lot of theories abound, but which ever theory explains it, it has to be a singular path that Albanian took in contrast to other IE languages).

Also with the recent akbari revelations of which there have been so many that a lot have not even been digested as of yet, it seems that the "Daco-Thracian" world split goes deeper than just an iron age phenomenon.

I am totally unconvinced by Aspar and Rafc's models of some random tiny stamped ware group exploding out of the rhodopians in the iron age to become both the dacians and the thracians.

Georgiev famously claimed that the Daco-Mysians were linguistically as different to the Thracians (while still being related phylogenetically, same branch) as Armenian was from Iranian, so this sort of deeper EBA-MBA split of common Daco-Thracian also more comfortably allows for one of the branches of the wider Daco-Thracian to be the Proto-Albanian branch.

This also puts Dardanian back on the table as belonging to this Daco-Thracian group, maybe the westernmost branch of a Dardano-Daco-Thracian group.
In relation to the "Dardano-Daco-Thracian" group, which might be easier to just call the Central Balkan Cotofeni group, with Dardanian possibly being a south westernmost offshoot of this Cotofeni group:

In post #4586 above I showed how Albanian archaeologist Luan Perzhita shamelessly promotes his book with claims of 8000 year presence in Kosova, and he promotes this Illyromania with a famous channelled ware find from Kosova that is definitely not Illyrian, classifed as Daco-Mysian or Basarabi derived by some authors.

If Albanian archaeologists such as Perzhita are so shamelessly willing to present non-Illyrian archaeological cultures outside of Illyria as Illyrian, this got me thinking that there should be even less trust, zero trust when concerning their publications about material culture within Illyria/Albania.

In the LBA-EIA period we see across Albania an introduction of both cremation and channelled ware that shows up where before there were only inhumation burials.

In any other context this is a clear signal of an intrusive element entering into the mix, whereas this was never not once even mentioned by any of the most prominent Alb archaeologists of the day. There is never the option that there are two linguistic/ethnic stratums here in play (local inhumers + foreign cremators).

Since this cremating group brought channelled ware and is not from within Illyria, it clearly suggests that they would have brought a non-local Daco-Thracian / Cotofeni derived language, meaning the South Illyrians should have had a Daco-Thracian adstratum in at least the LBA-EIA period.

A summary from Grok:

The "cremation + channelled ware package" in Albanian LBA–EIA archaeology (roughly 13th/12th–8th/7th centuries BCE). This includes cremation (often in urns or pits, sometimes secondary) alongside channelled/kanellure/grooved pottery (fine dark ware with parallel ribbing or channelling, frequently on kantharoi or similar forms). It appears alongside local matt-painted and plastic-decorated wares and is tied to multidirectional influences.

This combination is not universal across Albanian sites. Most tumuli emphasize inhumation (contracted or extended) with matt-painted pottery dominant in the south/east; cremation and channelled ware are more characteristic of northern and central Albania (Mat/Drin valleys and transitional zones), appearing especially in the LBA–EIA transition. Data come from tumulus excavations (over 150–300 documented, many from communist-era digs by Albanian archaeologists like Skënder Aliu, Zhaneta Andrea, etc., plus international projects). Full publications are limited; many older reports lack detailed osteology or pottery seriation. No single exhaustive catalogue exists, but key syntheses (e.g., Kurti 2017 on northern LBA costume; Gori/Krapf on Korçë pottery; Papadopoulos et al. on Lofkënd) allow a rigorous list of sites with explicit or strongly attested co-occurrence.


Confirmed or Strongly Attested Sites (with both elements)​


These have direct evidence from excavations/publications for cremation (urn/pit/cremated bone) and channelled ware (kanellure/ribbed decoration) in LBA–EIA contexts:
  • Lofkënd Tumulus (Mallakastër region, south-central Albania, near Vjosa/Gjanicë River):Best-documented example. 85+ prehistoric burials (14th–9th centuries BCE) include both inhumations and cremations (cremated remains analyzed osteologically). Pottery features fine dark ware with “kanellure” (channelled ribbing), noted as the southernmost significant occurrence of this northern-style decoration in Albanian tumuli (contemporary with matt-painted wares). Grave goods and fill also include associated LBA–EIA types.
  • Drin Valley Tumuli Group (northeastern Albania, Kukes area):
    • Kënetë (Kenete) Tumuli: Explicit LBA grave (e.g., Tumulus 4, Grave 2) with a small kantharos showing channeled decoration, associated with ornaments (ribbed bracelets). Part of a larger tumulus field with mixed LBA–EIA rites, including cremation elements in some northern contexts.
    • Çinamak (Cinamak) Tumuli (67+ tumuli excavated): Multiple LBA graves with ornaments and pottery; channelled ware is characteristic of the northern group. Cremation appears in transitional EIA phases in the broader Drin/Mat complex.
    • Kruma (Krumë) Tumuli: Similar to above—part of the same Drin valley cluster with channelled ware horizon and evidence of cremation in LBA–EIA burials.
  • Mat (Mati) Valley Tumuli (central-northern Albania, e.g., Shtoj Plain, Bazje, Bruç, etc.):Core of the Glasinac-Mati cultural complex. Numerous tumuli yield channelled/kanellure ware (fine dark fabric, often on drinking vessels) in LBA–EIA contexts. Cremation (urn or pit) becomes more prominent in the EIA phase, sometimes alongside inhumation; the “package” reflects northern influences. Specific examples include Tumulus 9 at Shtoj and others with documented ornaments + pottery.
  • Pazhok Tumuli (central Albania, Devoll valley):Early channelled ware attested from the 13th century BCE (one of the first appearances in Albania). Tumuli show mixed rites, including some cremation influences in LBA–EIA layers.

Related or Partial Evidence Sites (channelled ware prominent, cremation present but less dominant or not always co-occurring in the same grave)​


These belong to the same cultural horizon but cremation may be rarer or secondary:
  • Korçë Plain / SE Albania tumuli and settlements (e.g., Barç, Kuç i Zi, Sovjan settlement): Channelled ware appears in EIA transition layers (e.g., Sovjan level 5c1 with channelled + inturned bowls). Tumuli here are more matt-painted focused; cremation is limited compared to the north.
  • Other northern/central tumuli (e.g., Bardhoc, parts of Kolonja plateau): Channelled elements noted in LBA costume studies, with occasional cremation.
 
Well, we have LBA-EIA samples of Thracians from Greece and Macedonia. Typically, most are females or very mixed, like expected, because of practically all regulars being cremated.

Therefore for proving early Thracian presence, females with Thracian profiles and IBD sharing will be as crucial as finding E-V13.

We have seen this in Slovakia, Hungary, Macedonia and Greece.
 
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Now I see that Stefan and co are pushing more for Dardanian origin, and they've begun to construct all sorts of fanciful copes way over inflating Glasinac-Mati reach to safely "Illyrianise" the Dardani.

Give it up before you waste another 4 years. These contstructs are pathetic and useless. Glasinac-Mati only had real influence in Drin / Western Kosovo. These fantasy maps that are being pushed of them dominating Nish and Skopje are absurd archaeologically.

All of Kosovo extending as far as into south Albania was overrun by channelled ware in the late bronze age - early iron age. This massive wave had nothing to do with Glasinac-Mati or Illyrians. This channelled ware showed up in Mat itself also, so these channelled ware people imposed themselves even on the Glasinac-Mati people. Meanwhile these Illyro-Taliban clowns are claiming all of Dardnaia was Glasinac-Mati, when the true archaeological record shows the exact opposite, that only the western Drin region was properly so.

If you are an Albanian actually interested in the truth or belong to E-V13 and you like and boost this clown and his Illyro-Taliban network then you are a moron.

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I'm not an expert on this subject, so I might ask you, do we know in what places Daco-Thracian/Illyrian toponyms start to dominate in Dardania/Central Balkans? This should help us on determining where the real border between Illyrians and Daco-Thracians could be located. I dont think archeology is enough to determine the linguistic borders, it could show us when a different group of people moved in a region but after a period of time, these different archeological cultures cant really be associated with one linguistic/ethnic identity, there's the posibility that an ethnic group could adopt the local/invader's culture without losing its language or vice-versa adopt the language without changing its culture. Again I'm not an expert, I just want to see what do you think abt this.
 
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I'm not an expert on this subject, so I might ask you, do we know in what places Daco-Thracian/Illyrian toponyms start to dominate in Dardania/Central Balkans? This should help us on determining where the real border between Illyrians and Daco-Thracians could be located. I dont think archeology is enough to determine the linguistic borders, it could show us when a different group of people moved in a region but after a period of time, these different archeological cultures cant really be associated with one linguistic/ethnic identity, there's the posibility that an ethnic group could adopt the local/invader's culture without losing its language or vice-versa adopt the language without changing its culture. Again I'm not an expert, I just want to see what do you think abt this.
Well, "generally" the consensus is that the western half of Kosova, the dukagjin plain is the "Illyrian" part and east of that is where the Daco-Thracian part begins, but it isn't a matter of being able to plot the toponyms and neatly see a demarcation, especially since attestation of toponyms isn't from just one time period but spread throughout disparate eras.

The way that classically philologists have tried to tackle the issue is that they use personal name attestation, tribal name attestation, toponyms, hydronyms, etc, and compile them all together and from there then match it with the archaeological cultures (see for example: Fanula Papazoglu in her work The central Balkan tribes in pre-Roman times )

The problem here is again that this is a composite of linguistic material across multiple eras, and as I tried to show with the example of cremation and channelled ware entering all the way to south Albania in the LBA-EIA, at this point it is clear that the Daco-Thracians were as west as the coast, but they were pushed back/absorbed in time or reduced to a minority element based on evidence so far.

So with respect to toponyms, unless something is very clear like "Dardapara" with many countless equivalents showing up in the known Thracian corpus (toponyms that end in -para), then it is hard to parse whether a toponym is even Illyrian or Daco-Thracian.

Take the example of the Illyrian tribe the "Taulantii", this name or any related form or element shows up nowhere else in the entire Illyrian, Delmato-Pannonian, Messapic, etc, corpus. It is the only attestation of this word, there are no personal names, toponyms, hydronyms with anything related to this. So while it is first attested 6th century BC as the name of an Illyrian tribe, it is very possible that this "Taulantii" name was brought over by the channelled ware people in the LBA-EIA and is not even linguistically "Illyrian". There is no way to confirm that without some further attestation of this linguistic element among other Illyric material, or by confirmed sound laws that can also be shown in the material. Take the example of the Albanian name "Bujar' i.e. Bujar Nishani the former president. This is an Albanian name but it is an old Slavic loanword from Slavic. Boyar (nobleman). Likewise Taulanti could easily be a loanword into Illyrian from the Daco-Thracian channelled ware cremating group that is archaeological confirmed precisely in the regions of the Taulantii. But for now there isn't any surefire way to know, because the actual corpus is really sparse.

We can say some things as low resolution certainties concerning the border, but they are not chronologically static, with a different answer depending on the timeframe, i.e. in LBA-EIA Daco-Thracian was all the way west to the Adriatic, later on Illyrians defintely push st to Dukagjin plain. Roman period Daco-Thracians push west again ( some even make it to Albania :P)
 
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What matters for Albanian is the situation at Roman period because that is essentially the starting point when Albanian emerges.

JVLwvp2.png
 
Fascinating, a weatlhy Thracian in a tumuli from a princely grave near the Struma river bore the name "Ulk".

This is linguistically significant because this Thracian has the exact same name as one of the earliest attested Albanian names that is inherited from proto-indo-european (meaning Wolf).

We have ottoman defters from the 15th century from Albanian as well as Kosova that show Albanians with this same name:

15th-century Ottoman tax registers (defters) of the Sanjak of Shkodra (1485) and related Kosovo-area documents. In these, we find:

  • Ulko and Ujka (1455 records)
  • Ulku (son of Boshko), Uku (his brother), and widow Ulka in villages like Prekullukë (Deçan area) and Jabllanicë (Peja)
  • Related forms like Ukqë (1485) and patronymics such as Ujk / Ujkan
  • Compounds like Buzuk/Buzuq (where the second element is explicitly the name Ujk “wolf,” used as a personal name that later became part of village/kin naming)


LINK: https://www.academia.edu/42240261/R...ciennes_THRACE_ANCIENNE_Komotini_1997_365_390
 
Rrenjet claims Skenderbeg is J2b-L283.


"Most typical Illyrian lineage", according to henchman bojaxhi
 
Who knows what he considers ‘the most typical Illyrian’

Logically speaking, yes - one would think he is talking about L283.
 
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J-L283 is the most Illyrian haplogroup, just like E-V13 is "most Thracian", I-M253 and R-U106 most Germanic, R-Z93 most Iranian etc., etc.
 
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