Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

Are you resorting to straight up lying at this point? That's not even what your pictures show.

Wilkes "There can surely be no doubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population and their likely idenitification seems to be with a Romanized population of Illyrian origin". "Albanian comes from a variety of places known to have inhabited the region, among whom were the Illyrians."

You "Komani culture are Asian, and Wilkes says Albanians aren't Illyrians"

There is only one Illyrian tribe in current Albania ..the Taulanti ..............why all the fuss for one tribe .............the bosnian, dalmatia, croatia, slovenia hold dozens upon dozens of Illyrian tribal origins, their original people before Celtic and slavic incursion are the true Illyrians .

your agenda for one tribe is silly .........................don't you realise if 95% of illyrians tribes are north of Albania it means that the illyrians did not come from albania .............plus Ancient illyrians in majority lived by the sea .............while proto-albanian origin is land locked

 

[Fustan]

I love this dude's thoughts. There are Thracians in the middle of Illyrian territory. Then there are Asians. Anything but the Illyrian Albanoi which has been confirmed by multiple sources, and the Geg/Tosk split date confirms it. Imagine making up that much stuff just to keep your mental gymnastics going.

Observation from all these years on Albanian discussions on fora: if people are overcomplicating stuff, they are almost definitely wrong about it. Sardinian origin of J2b2, "Daco-Thracian" (lol) E-V13, Asian Komani culture. It's all in the same piece of paper that has it's place in the toilet.

 

[Riverman]

Observation from all these years on Albanian discussions on fora: if people are overcomplicating stuff, they are almost definitely wrong about it. Sardinian origin of J2b2, "Daco-Thracian" (lol) E-V13, Asian Komani culture. It's all in the same piece of paper that has it's place in the toilet.

What's laughable about Proto-Thracians being dominated by E-V13?
- The modern phylogeny and distribution of E-V13 demands a series of drastic founder effects in the transitional period (1.300-900 BC)
- In this period G?va/Channelled Ware expanded at the expanse of earlier groups in the whole Central and Eastern Balkan, down to Greece and Asia minor
- The following cultures, which are clearly Dacian and Thracian respectively, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo, already showed E-V13 as the dominant haplogroup in the sites of Viminacium and Kapitan Andreevo respectively
- In most areas, especially those of Psenichevo-Basarabi, where Channelled Ware/G?va derived groups dominated in the Late Bronze Age, we see Daco-Thracian ethnicities later.

This is pretty straightforward and simple, and only overcomplicated for people which lack a basic understanding of the problem and requirements to solve it. Like any sort of failed solution with E-V13 just sitting around among the many other Early Bronze Age lineages, in the Balkans, is unable to explain the great cultural shift (no genetic effect at all?) and the radical expansion of E-V13 at that time. By connecting three aspects:
1) Channelled Ware/Psenichevo-Basarabi
2) E-V13 expansion in the transitional period (its there, just look at the tree)
3) The appearance of Daco-Thracian ethnicities in the areas affected by both

You get an elegant solution for an old problem.

By stating "E-V13 just hid somewhere in the Balkans", you don't solve any of this at all. There must have been a series of founder effects in just the right time, in the transitional period and the expansion wasn't going from the South to the North, at least not South of the Danube, that's for sure.

If people lack the basic understanding for the phylogeny of E-V13, the archaeological situation of the Balkans in the Late Bronze and Early Iron Age, as well as the ethnolinguistic divisions of the Iron Age period, they can't properly understand what this is about and it may appear for such people that the simplest possible solution is "overcomplicated".

Everyone can check the E-V13 tree on YFull and count how many of the main splits date back to the LBA-EIA transition:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

For E-V13 the first big time for the diversification and expansion of its subclades was definitely right when Channelled Ware/South Eastern Urnfield conquered the Balkans. This is as obvious as the Bell Beaker spread in Iberia or Britain. The question is just whether they started right from the Upper Tisza (G?va core) or from a secondary centre at the Danube (Belegis II-G?va/Fluted Ware Bulgaria).

 

[Fustan]

The E-V13 in Albanians and Greeks are Daco-Thracians, despite there being no Dacian samples and just one Thracian sample, oh and let's ignore the fact that the recent EV13 La Tene sample was identical to the J2b2 sample, and that he was from a historically Illyrian region. There's also the very deep linguistic relationship between Greek and the Daco-Thracian language, Albanian also being related to the latter. E-V13 is also not a haplogroup spread all across Europe and it would be completely impossible for more than one haplogroup to be a part of the ethnogenesis of an ethnicity such as the Illyrians, who were only J2b2. Also, the relationship between Albanians and Greeks must be because of their shared Daco-Thracian influence.

Also we should make sweeping accusations despite southern Illyrian region being completely untested except for the recent southern dalmatian sample in the La Tene paper.

 

[Archetype0ne]

This presence of this non-illyrian knobbed ware in Mati regions of Albania is particulary interesting also. How many non-Illyrians moved into this region at this time. Were there pockets and enclaves where they were linguistically Illyrianised, and were there places where they kept their own language?
I'm reminded of Wilkes argument that Albanians did not descend from the Illyrians, but that they came from transhumance shepherds.

Johane, never thought I would see you make a post that contradicts your own source.

quite sad, I would have thought Torzio posted that, had it not had your well sourced style

 

[Riverman]

The E-V13 in Albanians and Greeks are Daco-Thracians, despite there being no Dacian samples and just one Thracian sample, oh and let's ignore the fact that the recent EV13 La Tene sample was identical to the J2b2 sample, and that he was from a historically Illyrian region. There's also the very deep linguistic relationship between Greek and the Daco-Thracian language, Albanian also being related to the latter. E-V13 is also not a haplogroup spread all across Europe and it would be completely impossible for more than one haplogroup to be a part of the ethnogenesis of an ethnicity such as the Illyrians, who were only J2b2. Also, the relationship between Albanians and Greeks must be because of their shared Daco-Thracian influence.

The Vekerzug sample was from a site which even had Channelled Ware influences in the previous period and we know that Channelled Ware people expanded from the Great Hungarian plain westward, both by themselves, and later with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Its just very unfortunate that the Mezocsat sample from the British paper was small and contained not a single (!) male. But sooner or later this can be solved, as I have outlined here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page12?p=638146&viewfull=1#post638146

Also we should make sweeping accusations despite southern Illyrian region being completely untested except for the recent southern dalmatian sample in the La Tene paper.

That's irrelevant because from all the modern and ancient data we have, we already know that this was not the core region of E-V13, not before the LBA. Any sort of expansion from that area should have been big and noticeable already in the EBA, because after that, almost everything was going North -> South. They can't have expanded against the tide, that won't work out.

Anything South of the Danube is at this point largely out of question or has a remaining chance of less than 1 :10. We actually do need to E-V13 at least dominate Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo to account for its expansion. But where was their big first expansion taking place before, which dates to a time even before that horizon? There is Channelled Ware which can explain the distribution and everything else is much more complicated. Because then E-V13 would have needed luck not one time, by becoming dominant in Channelled Ware, but many times over and over again, within a very short time frame. That's highly unlikely, by all means.
The phylogeny of E-V13 provides a strict frame, you can't explain the ancient or modern distribution outside of it and we always end in the crucial transitional period being the pivotal moment: The time span from about 1.300-900 BC.

 

[Johane Derite]

Johane, never thought I would see you make a post that contradicts your own source.

quite sad, I would have thought Torzio posted that, had it not had your well sourced style

There is no contradiction, he is clear as day that Albanian doesn't descend from Illyrian, the part you underlined is referring to something else entirely. He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians.

He means this in the way that Albanian has inheritance from ottoman culture, language, and religion, slavic, etc. He is clear as day in his opinion that Albanian does not descend from Illyrian

 

[Hawk]

I don't know what Illyrii proprii dictii samples will result as, so i guess we should wait. Perhaps it was more of an interacting zone and more admixture went there. But i find intriguing to compare material culture and all the package it comes with it.

Likewise, i find it interesting that Dardanian King Monunius used the so called Thraco-Phrygian type of helmet.

As far as Viminacium comes, Serb archeologists actually have put their hypothesis that those cremation graves are actually not native there and derive from Dardanian/Pirustii newcomers in Viminacium, but it's just an hypothesis among some others.

 

[Hawk]

As for that La Tene E-V13 outlier.

Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
70.0 Aegean_Neolithic
19.6 Yamnaya
8.6 Baltic
1.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

He is neither close to the J2b2-L283 sample, neither close to Illyrians, or similar to Daco-Thracians.

If he was Daco-Thracian it would be impossible for him not to score Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East_European_Neolithic, 0% chances. Or if he was either Pannonian or Illyrian, he would score something a like more Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic/Adriatic_Neolithic but he doesn't. So, i am assuming more Southern Balkans, he was a migrant/merchant from somewhere in Greece or peripheries.

 

[enter_tain]

Johane, never thought I would see you make a post that contradicts your own source.

quite sad, I would have thought Torzio posted that, had it not had your well sourced style

I made an account just to rebuff this guy. The dude is a straight up liar. To me Matzinger lost credibility a long time ago, but I wonder if this guy is straight up lying about that too, and making up shit on behalf of Matzinger.

First he says Komani are Asian. Then he literally lies about John Wilkes when we have the quote in front of him. Not to mentions his egregious lie that I've seen others repeat that "Delus Mucati" is a Thracian name. The guy is pernicious.

 

[Johane Derite]

Interestingly, we possibly have a proto-Albanian name that appears in 202 AD in the Pizus Stele.

This is today Dimitrievo, Bulgaria.

The stele records 305 names, 271 Thracian names, 10 Greek names, 24 Latin names.

One of them is Moukaporis Dreneos which linguist Ivan Duridanov linked etymologically to Albanian. Dren (deer).

Of further relevance is just how absolutely prevalent names with Mouka- (Moukaporis, Moukatralis, Moukianos,etc) show up in the Thracian names (highlighted in yellow).

This should demonstrate just how absurd it is to claim Mouka- as an Illyrian name when it is one of the most common Thracian names ever and not part of the Illyrian personal names at all.

So Albanoi having this name is of possible great relevance to finding out what language they spoke.

Here is link to the inscription of Moukaporis Dreneos (Μ̣ουκαπ̣ορις Δρεν̣εο̣ς):

LINK: https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/169786?hs=3040-3046

 

[Archetype0ne]

There is no contradiction, he is clear as day that Albanian doesn't descend from Illyrian, the part you underlined is referring to something else entirely. He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians.
He means this in the way that Albanian has inheritance from ottoman culture, language, and religion, slavic, etc. He is clear as day in his opinion that Albanian does not descend from Illyrian

You are saying, I might have inherited genes from my father but I don't descend from him... totally logical argument.
I would do some soul searching if I were you, and try to find out what I really want. Is it to engage in something that at least resembles science, or is it to prove that the facts (mostly lack of them so far) prove some personal bias of mine.

At this point it is obvious to me that the only reason you are pedaling against the current right now, is because you want the Dardanian Zeus / Troy mythology to be historical for proto-Albanians... and Thracian hypothesis helps you in these theories you have been posting for years on fora and twitter.
But going so far as to spit at the facts, claim Komani was Asiatic based on 2/25 skulls from one cemetery among dozens... To claim that Albanians despite having ethnic inheritance from Illyrians do not descend from Illyrians... this is just foolishness.

As a matter of fact, as you know the number of ancestors grows exponentially each generation you look back, you don't have to spit at the facts, to hypothesize any of your hypotheses, they are not mutually exclusive.

But yes, please do some soul searching, I do not envy the figure you are doing atm.

 

[Dibran]

I made an account just to rebuff this guy. The dude is a straight up liar. To me Matzinger lost credibility a long time ago, but I wonder if this guy is straight up lying about that too, and making up shit on behalf of Matzinger.

First he says Komani are Asian. Then he literally lies about John Wilkes when we have the quote in front of him. Not to mentions his egregious lie that I've seen others repeat that "Delus Mucati" is a Thracian name. The guy is pernicious.

Komani Asian? That's bizarre. If anything Komani represents the fusion between Proto-Albanian and Avaro-Slavs that likely led to the Albanian ethnogenesis of the early medieval.

Problem with verifying this is, the woman in control of Komani archeological sites is Anti-Genetics and won't allow the sequencing/testing of those remains. Sadly we may never know as long as she's in control of it. Her name was Etleva or something.

 

[torzio]

You are saying, I might have inherited genes from my father but I don't descend from him... totally logical argument.
I would do some soul searching if I were you, and try to find out what I really want. Is it to engage in something that at least resembles science, or is it to prove that the facts (mostly lack of them so far) prove some personal bias of mine.

At this point it is obvious to me that the only reason you are pedaling against the current right now, is because you want the Dardanian Zeus / Troy mythology to be historical for proto-Albanians... and Thracian hypothesis helps you in these theories you have been posting for years on fora and twitter.
But going so far as to spit at the facts, claim Komani was Asiatic based on 2/25 skulls from one cemetery among dozens... To claim that Albanians despite having ethnic inheritance from Illyrians do not descend from Illyrians... this is just foolishness.

As a matter of fact, as you know the number of ancestors grows exponentially each generation you look back, you don't have to spit at the facts, to hypothesize any of your hypotheses, they are not mutually exclusive.

But yes, please do some soul searching, I do not envy the figure you are doing atm.

You have no proof of any ethnic inheritance from Illyrians ............it is basically an old claim with no facts

Let me know what this proof is ..............1 illyrian tribe worth 5% of all the illyrian tribes is not a claim ....................or ................are you saying the proto-albanians came down from the eastern alps area and brought Illyrian with them ......................the bosnians, croats and slovenes ( pre slav people ) have the greater illyrian ethnic admixture and per old ancient samples and the new current croatian and slovene samples.

I am really interested what actually you base you claim on

 

[Archetype0ne]

I am the proof you moron.

Even underlined it in case you missed it.

 

[Hawk]

You are saying, I might have inherited genes from my father but I don't descend from him... totally logical argument.
I would do some soul searching if I were you, and try to find out what I really want. Is it to engage in something that at least resembles science, or is it to prove that the facts (mostly lack of them so far) prove some personal bias of mine.

At this point it is obvious to me that the only reason you are pedaling against the current right now, is because you want the Dardanian Zeus / Troy mythology to be historical for proto-Albanians... and Thracian hypothesis helps you in these theories you have been posting for years on fora and twitter.
But going so far as to spit at the facts, claim Komani was Asiatic based on 2/25 skulls from one cemetery among dozens... To claim that Albanians despite having ethnic inheritance from Illyrians do not descend from Illyrians... this is just foolishness.

As a matter of fact, as you know the number of ancestors grows exponentially each generation you look back, you don't have to spit at the facts, to hypothesize any of your hypotheses, they are not mutually exclusive.

But yes, please do some soul searching, I do not envy the figure you are doing atm.

What Wilkes was writing and Derite interpreting is that, Albanians do have partial Illyrian ancestry, but the Illyrians are not their linguistic ancestors. And this is what Matzinger is saying as well. He is proposing that those Albanian-Illyrian words are nothing more than folk etymologies, and essentially they don't belong to the same language family. Something which needs to be evaluated by other linguists as well.

As for archeology part Matzinger/Lippert are basing/quoting their writing on Albanian archaeologists Frano Prendi, Muzafer Korkuti and Yugoslav ones Mario Gavranovic.

I don't know what is it that you are not grasping?

 

[Johane Derite]

You are saying, I might have inherited genes from my father but I don't descend from him... totally logical argument.
I would do some soul searching if I were you, and try to find out what I really want. Is it to engage in something that at least resembles science, or is it to prove that the facts (mostly lack of them so far) prove some personal bias of mine.

At this point it is obvious to me that the only reason you are pedaling against the current right now, is because you want the Dardanian Zeus / Troy mythology to be historical for proto-Albanians... and Thracian hypothesis helps you in these theories you have been posting for years on fora and twitter.
But going so far as to spit at the facts, claim Komani was Asiatic based on 2/25 skulls from one cemetery among dozens... To claim that Albanians despite having ethnic inheritance from Illyrians do not descend from Illyrians... this is just foolishness.

As a matter of fact, as you know the number of ancestors grows exponentially each generation you look back, you don't have to spit at the facts, to hypothesize any of your hypotheses, they are not mutually exclusive.

But yes, please do some soul searching, I do not envy the figure you are doing atm.

Sorry to say this but, the problem first and foremost is that you seem to have a low reading comprehension.

Wilkes said it clear as possible that the komani-kruja culture was not Albanians, and that ancestors of Albanians didn't live in the Komani-Kruja culture and that there were unfortunate distortions, etc.

He says Albanians have inheritance from SEVERAL cultures, languages, etc. He means this in the way that Albanians have many cultural inheritances from the ottomans, without descending from the ottomans. Albanians have many inheritances from the Slavs, without descending from them (although some I2 and R1a Albs ultimately do descend paternally from them). Despite these inheritances, Albanian does not descend from either Slavic or Ottoman, or Latin, etc. He was throwing a bone with that comment to be polite/diplomatic, and the way you ignore everything else he wrote in those two pages to blindly interpret as if he is supporting Albanian language descending from Illyrian is baffling. The soul searching here needs to be done by you.

It is now clear and undeniable that J2b2-L283 was an Illyrian lineage, and that a big enough percentage of Albos for sure do descend from Illyrians, so I don't understand why you are freaking out.

The hypothesis I have committed to is that of the Dardani, because of Noel Malcolm and all the other scholars that argue thar low greek loanwords, Romanian-Albanian linguistic contact, etc, place proto-Albanian in a zone that is not exactly Albania today. The Dardani and mysians of troy are relevant to this since they are na early attestation, and possible source of evidence (names, inscriptions,) so I try make the point to raise awareness. I will drop the dardani hypothesis the moment it looks forced.

And again as for reading comprehension, I never said Komani was "asian". I showed comprehensive evidence from physical anthropologists that there were at least three different morhphological groups with different status graves in Komani culture, and that there were also even asians present.

This doesn't translate to "Komani was Asian". People with this low of a reading comprehension should be supervised by their parents when on the internet otherwise they just give themselves a headache.

What this translates to is that the communist narrative of Komani culture simply being local illyrians that went into the mountains and becoming albanians is demolished.

You have at least 4 different peoples there, and of them there are plenty of migratory populations, so even if proto-Albanian was there, they could have been migrants and nkt local illyrians. The evidence simply destroys the old hypothesis, that is the point.

 

[Johane Derite]

Komani Asian? That's bizarre. If anything Komani represents the fusion between Proto-Albanian and Avaro-Slavs that likely led to the Albanian ethnogenesis of the early medieval.
Problem with verifying this is, the woman in control of Komani archeological sites is Anti-Genetics and won't allow the sequencing/testing of those remains. Sadly we may never know as long as she's in control of it. Her name was Etleva or something.

This guy has no reading comprehension. He will literally read an author saying Albanian does not descend from Illyrian and come away with the opposite belief somehow.

So read my comments directly, don't take his word for what I am saying since I never said Komani was asian, but I showed latest papers on Koman where nobody accepts the communist Albanian hypothesis, they show skulls that are asian and other migratory populations also.

 

[Archetype0ne]

What Wilkes was writing and Derite interpreting is that, Albanians do have partial Illyrian ancestry, but the Illyrians are not their linguistic ancestors. And this is what Matzinger is saying as well. He is proposing that those Albanian-Illyrian words are nothing more than folk etymologies, and essentially they don't belong to the same language family. Something which needs to be evaluated by other linguists as well.

As for archeology part Matzinger/Lippert are basing/quoting their writing on Albanian archaeologists Frano Prendi, Muzafer Korkuti and Yugoslav ones Mario Gavranovic.

I don't know what is it that you are not grasping?

I am not grasping all the bs denialism.

The very quote Derite mentioned and even himself highlighted! includes culture/language. So miss me with this riposte.
"He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians."

Furthermore you boys might want to read a thing or two about the wave model of languages. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_model)
And lastly, don't speak about grasping stuff, when the theories and models you provide cant be falsified. Pseudoscience bs.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper#Philosophy_of_science)

First Derite misquotes and misinterpets Wilkes. Now to cover for him you misquote/interpret Derite.

It initially made no sense, since this started already Q3 2021, but later on you guys gave the motive away. Somehow, the lack of data from the published studies rattled you so much, that only denialism is left for you to claim/cling to the E-V13 wuz the one and only real proto-Albanians. But then your own sources and even your own words disprove you, hint: Derite "He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians."

You grasp?

 

[Johane Derite]

I am not grasping all the bs denialism.

The very quote Derite mentioned and even himself highlighted! includes culture/language. So miss me with this riposte.
"He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians."

Furthermore you boys might want to read a thing or two about the wave model of languages. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_model)
And lastly, don't speak about grasping stuff, when the theories and models you provide cant be falsified. Pseudoscience bs.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper#Philosophy_of_science)

First Derite misquotes and misinterpets Wilkes. Now to cover for him you misquote/interpret Derite.

It initially made no sense, since this started already Q3 2021, but later on you guys gave the motive away. Somehow, the lack of data from the published studies rattled you so much, that only denialism is left for you to claim/cling to the E-V13 wuz the one and only real proto-Albanians. But then your own sources and even your own words disprove you, hint: Derite "He says Albanian CULTURE is an inheritence from several languages, religions, and ethnic group, among whom were Illyrians."

You grasp?

Again you are demonstrating that you can't read a simple sentence. He says right there the word "several" and "culture". Several entails plural, are you aware?

Among whom were Illyrians, Thracian, Ottomans, Slavs, Latins, etc.

You understand yet or no? He literally says this remark after just arguing Albanian does not descend from Ilyrian as a sort of way of saying, "look all is not lost, I'm sure there is something at least partially illyrian in Albanian culture!"