Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[enter_tain]

Ye, we must stop responding to t-rolls. Only way is to starve them, since their function is to slide threads and derail them, so they require engagement. If you absolutely ignore them eventually they go away. I bought Aurel Plasari's book "Arbni" in the hope that it would be a good historical addition, but it is full of crap, and the entire Albanoi page on wiki it seems has been filled with the book's anachronistic and garbage claims. The fact that "delus mucati" is given as na illyrian name on that wiki pge shows just how manipulative and not interested in the truth the people on that wiki are. Mouka- Muka- is one perhaps one of the most common ever thracian names, so when someone so boldly claims it as Illyrian, you know that something dodgy is going on.

Weren't you banned from Anthrogenica? Who is the real "troll" here?

Aurel Plasari's book is literally just quoting historians/sources. How can that be "garbage"? It's not conjecture and theories like Matzinger's fake Albanian migrations or your Komani Asiatic nonsense.

The fact that "delus mucati" is given as na illyrian name on that wiki pge shows just how manipulative and not interested in the truth the people on that wiki are. Mouka- Muka- is one perhaps one of the most common ever thracian names, so when someone so boldly claims it as Illyrian, you know that something dodgy is going on.

What are you going on about? Albanopolis is Illyrian territory. This is 150 AD. Your pseudo-linguistic are hilarious. moUkA iS a tHRAcIAn nAME. Keep making stuff up

 

[enter_tain]

I love this dude's thoughts. There are Thracians in the middle of Illyrian territory. Then there are Asians. Anything but the Illyrian Albanoi which has been confirmed by multiple sources, and the Geg/Tosk split date confirms it. Imagine making up that much stuff just to keep your mental gymnastics going.

 

[Johane Derite]

But of course Hammond found exactly such Knobbed Ware in Albania, Epirus, and Macedonia.

This presence of this non-illyrian knobbed ware in Mati regions of Albania is particulary interesting also. How many non-Illyrians moved into this region at this time. Were there pockets and enclaves where they were linguistically Illyrianised, and were there places where they kept their own language?

I'm reminded of Wilkes argument that Albanians did not descend from the Illyrians, but that they came from transhumance shepherds.

 

[enter_tain]

This presence of this non-illyrian knobbed ware in Mati regions of Albania is particulary interesting also. How many non-Illyrians moved into this region at this time. Were there pockets and enclaves where they were linguistically Illyrianised, and were there places where they kept their own language?
I'm reminded of Wilkes argument that Albanians did not descend from the Illyrians, but that they came from transhumance shepherds.

Are you resorting to straight up lying at this point? That's not even what your pictures show.

Wilkes "There can surely be no doubt that the Komani-Kruja cemeteries indicate the survival of a non-Slav population and their likely idenitification seems to be with a Romanized population of Illyrian origin". "Albanian comes from a variety of places known to have inhabited the region, among whom were the Illyrians."

You "Komani culture are Asian, and Wilkes says Albanians aren't Illyrians"

 

[Johane Derite]

This presence of this non-illyrian knobbed ware in Mati regions of Albania is particulary interesting also. How many non-Illyrians moved into this region at this time. Were there pockets and enclaves where they were linguistically Illyrianised, and were there places where they kept their own language?
I'm reminded of Wilkes argument that Albanians did not descend from the Illyrians, but that they came from transhumance shepherds.

Wilkes here is very clear that Albanian represents a third language belonging to shepherds that did not live in the previously Illyrian towns and areas grabbed by slavs or in the komani-kruja culture inhabited by latin speaking peoples.

"If the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a Romanized Christian population bordered by new Slav settlements on the north and south then the ancestors of the historical Albanians were the pastoral communities on the higher ground behind the plains."

Of course more recent work on the Komani culture has shown his beliefs to probably be correct as avars and migratory populations have been found in Komani culture, so it is unlikely this is the ultimate source of the proto-Albanians as was argued by the communists in the past.


Could these pastoral communities that did not live in Komani culture but on higher ground be the Dardani? Does this explain why non-Illyrian names show up on the earliest names of the "Albanoi"?

 

[Johane Derite]

Wilkes here is very clear that Albanian represents a third language belonging to shepherds that did not live in the previously Illyrian towns and areas grabbed by slavs or in the komani-kruja culture inhabited by latin speaking peoples.
"If the Komani-Kruja cemeteries represent a Romanized Christian population bordered by new Slav settlements on the north and south then the ancestors of the historical Albanians were the pastoral communities on the higher ground behind the plains."
Of course more recent work on the Komani culture has shown his beliefs to probably be correct as avars and migratory populations have been found in Komani culture, so it is unlikely this is the ultimate source of the proto-Albanians as was argued by the communists in the past.
Could these pastoral communities that did not live in Komani culture but on higher ground be the Dardani? Does this explain why non-Illyrian names show up on the earliest names of the "Albanoi"?

If we try synthesise all these theories together, we can speculate that dardani shepherds began expanding west into illyrian regions as Illyrians were weakened by the romans, especially after wars.

 

[Hawk]

Knobbed-Ware variants are called Handmade Burnished Ware or Barbarian-Ware in Greece, and similar potteries appear at the same timeline of the burning of Mycenean palaces and Troy VIIa burning.

 

[Johane Derite]

Knobbed-Ware variants are called Handmade Burnished Ware or Barbarian-Ware in Greece, and similar potteries appear at the same timeline of the burning of Mycenean palaces and Troy VIIa burning.

Knobbed Ware and the Barbarian Ware are actually two different types of pottery, although they do both appear in Troy and Greece at the same time.

In the link from Hammond he was talking about Knobbed Ware specifically, so this cannot be extrapolated to say for sure that Barbarian ware was also found.



"Troy VIIa was destroyed violently which led the excavators to identify this event with the Greek myth of the Trojan War of Homer (Blegen et al. 1958: 143).

It was during the following phases that those two types of handmade pottery appeared.

The first one has been labelled "Coarse ware" or "Barbarian ware" and it occurs for the first time in Troy VIIb1 (Blegen et al. 1958: 158-159).

It is described as a handmade coarse pottery, often burnished and characterised by the presence of lugs and plastic decorations (2.4.1).


The other type is called "Buckelkeramick" or "Knobbed ware", and contrary to what was thought before55, it is also already present in Troy VIIb1 (Lászlό 2003: 109; Aslan 2009:
145-147).

This type of pottery is also handmade and burnished but is characterised by an abundance of decorations, especially knobs (2.4.1)

LINK:

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/2963/1/Romanos11PhD1.pdf

 

[Johane Derite]

Knobbed Ware and the Barbarian Ware are actually two different types of pottery, although they do both appear in Troy and Greece at the same time.

In the link from Hammond he was talking about Knobbed Ware specifically, so this cannot be extrapolated to say for sure that Barbarian ware was also found.



"Troy VIIa was destroyed violently which led the excavators to identify this event with the Greek myth of the Trojan War of Homer (Blegen et al. 1958: 143).

It was during the following phases that those two types of handmade pottery appeared.

The first one has been labelled "Coarse ware" or "Barbarian ware" and it occurs for the first time in Troy VIIb1 (Blegen et al. 1958: 158-159).

It is described as a handmade coarse pottery, often burnished and characterised by the presence of lugs and plastic decorations (2.4.1).


The other type is called "Buckelkeramick" or "Knobbed ware", and contrary to what was thought before55, it is also already present in Troy VIIb1 (Lászlό 2003: 109; Aslan 2009:
145-147).

This type of pottery is also handmade and burnished but is characterised by an abundance of decorations, especially knobs (2.4.1)

LINK:

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/2963/1/Romanos11PhD1.pdf

Although they are connected with the same people supposedly:

"These two wares which were before seen as representing two distinctive groups of new population (Blegen et al. 1958: 144-145) are now, after more recent excavations and detailed study of the material, regarded as a single group and the difference is instead linked to its function:

“Barbarian ware” being for cooking and storage and “Knobbed ware” for serving and drinking (Guzowska et al. 2003).

 

[Johane Derite]

So obviously these people that invaded Troy and Greece and Illyria in this period were not speaking Greek or Illyrian languages, so it remains a matter to be solved which language they spoke.

 

[Riverman]

So obviously these people that invaded Troy and Greece and Illyria in this period were not speaking Greek or Illyrian languages, so it remains a matter to be solved which language they spoke.

That's no mystery, because its supposed to be Proto-Thracian, like in the other areas of Channelled Ware too. If they were not speaking Daco-Thracian dialects, who else? Because the distribution and pattern of Channelled Ware overlaps strongly and the main cultural formations coming out of it, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo, being largely their descendants - in a mix though, so autosomally surely not "pure", but mixed with Encrusted Ware people and Bulgarian EBA in particular.

 

[Hawk]

That's no mystery, because its supposed to be Proto-Thracian, like in the other areas of Channelled Ware too. If they were not speaking Daco-Thracian dialects, who else? Because the distribution and pattern of Channelled Ware overlaps strongly and the main cultural formations coming out of it, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo, being largely their descendants - in a mix though, so autosomally surely not "pure", but mixed with Encrusted Ware people and Bulgarian EBA in particular.

Proto-Thracians were probably the Eastern spinoffs of Channeled-Ware.

 

[Riverman]

Proto-Thracians were probably the Eastern spinoffs of Channeled-Ware.

That's possible, but not as likely, because we have a South Western group (Belegis II-G?va) and a South Eastern group (Fluted Ware horizon/Knobbed Ware in Bulgaria) coming more directly from G?va to the North.
Now Psenichevo-Basarabi being largely the result of fusions with Encrusted Ware and locals, and while one may say that Psenichevo was more dominant, I don't think it can have replaced Belegis II-G?va for creating Bosut-Basarabi sufficiently. This means we have two independent groups, which seem to have survived, and which main connection is the original G?va core at the Upper Tisza, being interconnected ever since this core expanded and created this provinces.
Therefore I think its still more likely that G?va itself was the ultimate origin, while both Belegis II-G?va and Eastern Fluted Ware/Knobbed Ware could have done it alone as well, but that's less likely and would demand one completely replacing the other. For Belegis II-G?va the transition to Kalakača horizon and into Bosut-Basarabi is crucial for this debate. That and for the Fluted Ware/Knobbed Ware in Bulgaria the relationship to Belegis II-G?va on the one and the Northern G?va groups on the other hand.
Overall they seem to closely connected to really been of a different kind and ethnicity, in my opinion, but the proof can only come from the genetic data, because people can change their cultural production with or without significant genetic replacements events.

 

[Hawk]

Knobbed Ware and the Barbarian Ware are actually two different types of pottery, although they do both appear in Troy and Greece at the same time.

In the link from Hammond he was talking about Knobbed Ware specifically, so this cannot be extrapolated to say for sure that Barbarian ware was also found.



"Troy VIIa was destroyed violently which led the excavators to identify this event with the Greek myth of the Trojan War of Homer (Blegen et al. 1958: 143).

It was during the following phases that those two types of handmade pottery appeared.

The first one has been labelled "Coarse ware" or "Barbarian ware" and it occurs for the first time in Troy VIIb1 (Blegen et al. 1958: 158-159).

It is described as a handmade coarse pottery, often burnished and characterised by the presence of lugs and plastic decorations (2.4.1).


The other type is called "Buckelkeramick" or "Knobbed ware", and contrary to what was thought before55, it is also already present in Troy VIIb1 (Lászlό 2003: 109; Aslan 2009:
145-147).

This type of pottery is also handmade and burnished but is characterised by an abundance of decorations, especially knobs (2.4.1)

LINK:

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/2963/1/Romanos11PhD1.pdf

Sorry, wanted to say that the people who made the Handmade Burnished Ware or Barbarian-Ware and Knobbed-Ware are supposedly related.

 

[Johane Derite]

Sorry, wanted to say that the people who made the Handmade Burnished Ware or Barbarian-Ware and Knobbed-Ware are supposedly related.

This is the map of where Handmade Burnished Ware appears in Greece in different periods:

Would be interesting to see linguistic research to see if a non-Greek toponymy can be found in these regions.

 

[Riverman]

Sorry, wanted to say that the people who made the Handmade Burnished Ware or Barbarian-Ware and Knobbed-Ware are supposedly related.

Some researchers recently claimed that the Barbarian ware appeared in Mycenaean Greece before the collapse and being associated with an increasing number of immigrants from the Balkans/Central Europe, which started at the lower end of the social ladder, even as slaves, but many also as artisans and mercenaries. It kind of looks they first appeared as migrants and then called in their relatives to take over and plunder. I also think that this plans created and alliance of independent Northern Greek tribes ("Dorians"), those Proto-Thracians and Illyrians, among others to take first Mycenaean Greece and some decided then to move on, calling in even more distant allied tribes and warbands, which created the Sea Peoples movement.

This is the map of where Handmade Burnished Ware appears in Greece in different periods:


Would be interesting to see linguistic research to see if a non-Greek toponymy can be found in these regions.

I think they were too weak to leave too much of a mark linguistically, but rather fused under the dominance of Northern Greek tribals in what became later known as Dorians.

 

[Hawk]

Some researchers recently claimed that the Barbarian ware appeared in Mycenaean Greece before the collapse and being associated with an increasing number of immigrants from the Balkans/Central Europe, which started at the lower end of the social ladder, even as slaves, but many also as artisans and mercenaries. It kind of looks they first appeared as migrants and then called in their relatives to take over and plunder. I also think that this plans created and alliance of independent Northern Greek tribes ("Dorians"), those Proto-Thracians and Illyrians, among others to take first Mycenaean Greece and some decided then to move on, calling in even more distant allied tribes and warbands, which created the Sea Peoples movement.



I think they were too weak to leave too much of a mark linguistically, but rather fused under the dominance of Northern Greek tribals in what became later known as Dorians.

A band of warriors/vagabonds doesn't mean a pocket of culture, they probably wanted to plunder the riches of East Mediterranean. It could very well be a scenario like with Bulgarian Turkics, leaving the name but not changing the language.

The Channeled-Ware warriors started to get hired by Mycenaeans earlier, a good example is the Uluburun shipwreck in 14 century B.C, were tools and weapons of some of the guardians have their equals somewhere in Northern Romania.

 

[Riverman]

The Channeled-Ware warriors started to get hired by Mycenaeans earlier, a good example is the Uluburun shipwreck in 14 century B.C, were tools and weapons of some of the guardians have their equals somewhere in Northern Romania.

Where do you have that from?

 

[Hawk]

Where do you have that from?

I remember i quoted before from other paper, this is what i found so far. But there are items with origin from Bulgaria and some from Albania afaik.

Bronze axe heads, from the Balkans (Romania), may indicatethat there was a merchant from farther north on board

https://www.archaeological.org/pdfs/education/cargoes/Cargoes_Chapter1.pdf

 

[Riverman]

I remember i quoted before from other paper, this is what i found so far. But there are items with origin from Bulgaria and some from Albania afaik.

Some of the hoards of Channelled Ware people being interpreted as kind of secret storage pits for their artisans and traders, not just sacrificial. They were in any case very active artisans and traders, producing huge numbers of all kind of items, including swords, but especially socketed axes of a specific type being found in huge numbers and very frequently.
Would make sense that some of those ended up in the long range trade.

Edit: Just went through it:

Bronze axe heads, from the Balkans (Romania), may indicate
that there was a merchant from farther north on board

https://www.archaeological.org/pdfs/education/cargoes/Cargoes_Chapter1.pdf

So there was at least a trade connection to the Danube-Tisza area/Channelled Ware-related groups.