Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Hawk]

But the surname Berisha is carried by different people/families/clans. No where did Kelmendasi play devils advocate by stating something like "real Berisha are this line or that". He stated a simple fact. There are unrelated Berisha. Now if he said the Berisha of Puka should be the same as those from Diber, you may have a point. There is no where in any history book that everyone who is a Berisha has to be from Puka or has to be E-V13. We can only say for certain those Berisha of Puka or those claiming to come from them MUST be E-V13 as this is the biggest Berisha fis/clan there is with that name. Most famous for sure.

As far as the Berisha fis of Diber mentioned with Skanderbeg, they are a tribe their own. And whilst many have theoretically tried to connect them to those of Puka, there is no actual evidence of that and now Y-DNA testing also confirms that they are not in fact related. Claiming those who have the surname Berisha that aren't from Puka is "equivalent to gypsies/roma" having that surname is extremely childish and insulting. Just because the Berisha of Puka are the largest and most popular with that surname, does not make other smaller fis with this surname Gypsies or insignificant.

I'm not sure what the etymology of Berisha is, but one would expect like "Gjergj" or "Gjon" that many can bare this name without any relation to the other.

It just so happens that those of Puka are the ones who are the most famous for it. And perhaps the Berisha mentioned in Latin records which would make sense.

I still don't see how he is being slimey or mischievous for stating simple facts.

It's not a fact at all. And he didn't state it, he just copied and pasted whatever Rrenjet admin has wroten.

There are absolutely no other known Berishas outside the core Berisha region from Puke, it is true that some Roma/Gypsies adopted this surname and i am pretty sure this surname was adopted by the Berisha of Diber (more precisely couple of houses in the village of Muhurr) way earlier as well and there is nothing insulting about it, it is what it is (i am stating there are other unrelated people who adopted this surname, i am not equating). Since they are quite small, numbering in fingers, just as those from Librazhd are (in fact there is no material available for them, likely they don't even exist), there are no other known cases of unrelated people carrying this surname, everyone stating otherwise is obviously trying to create false perception or frame projection.

This is not a frequent surname or tribe name appearing all over Albanians, it's the original Berisha carrying this, couple of houses in Muhurr and so far some ghost Berishas from Librazhd. Logic dictates that if those from Muhurr are not E-V13 FGC33625 then they adopted that surname along the way even if they were E-V13 some other subclade or any other Y-DNA.

 

[Johane Derite]

Macurdy believed the Dardanians of Troy to have spoken a language related to Phrygian & Macedonian, with their origins being in the Balkans.


Comparing many Trojan names that appear in the Iliad, she argued there were parallels found in Paeonia, Thrace, Macedonia, Epirus, etc.

For example, names ending with -ops in Trojans like Merops, Phaenops, Enops, Charops, Dolops, Dryops, etc, she compared directly to the Balkan Paeonian Derriopes, Ellopes, Dryopes, Almopes, etc.

 

[torzio]

Macurdy believed the Dardanians of Troy to have spoken a language related to Phrygian & Macedonian, with their origins being in the Balkans.


Comparing many Trojan names that appear in the Iliad, she argued there were parallels found in Paeonia, Thrace, Macedonia, Epirus, etc.

For example, names ending with -ops in Trojans like Merops, Phaenops, Enops, Charops, Dolops, Dryops, etc, she compared directly to the Balkan Paeonian Derriopes, Ellopes, Dryopes, Almopes, etc.

at the time of the Trojan war 1185BC , the Phygians where basically where the thracian Bithyians ended up settling ..................after the trojan war the Phygian people basically /migrated/moved south ( maybe filling in Hittite voids lands ) , north of the Lydian people who conquered them circa 550BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

they where neighbours of the thracian to their north ..............thracian where also neighbours to the macedonains and Paeonians, as well as the Dardanians

maybe they shared clothing ( cap for sure ) weapons and some linguistic words

 

[blevins13]

It's not a fact at all. And he didn't state it, he just copied and pasted whatever Rrenjet admin has wroten.

There are absolutely no other known Berishas outside the core Berisha region from Puke, it is true that some Roma/Gypsies adopted this surname and i am pretty sure this surname was adopted by the Berisha of Diber (more precisely couple of houses in the village of Muhurr) way earlier as well and there is nothing insulting about it, it is what it is (i am stating there are other unrelated people who adopted this surname, i am not equating). Since they are quite small, numbering in fingers, just as those from Librazhd are (in fact there is no material available for them, likely they don't even exist), there are no other known cases of unrelated people carrying this surname, everyone stating otherwise is obviously trying to create false perception or frame projection.

This is not a frequent surname or tribe name appearing all over Albanians, it's the original Berisha carrying this, couple of houses in Muhurr and so far some ghost Berishas from Librazhd. Logic dictates that if those from Muhurr are not E-V13 FGC33625 then they adopted that surname along the way even if they were E-V13 some other subclade or any other Y-DNA.

What is Y-Dna of Berisha’s of Diber?


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[bigsnake49]

at the time of the Trojan war 1185BC , the Phygians where basically where the thracian Bithyians ended up settling ..................after the trojan war the Phygian people basically /migrated/moved south ( maybe filling in Hittite voids lands ) , north of the Lydian people who conquered them circa 550BC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia
they where neighbours of the thracian to their north ..............thracian where also neighbours to the macedonains and Paeonians, as well as the Dardanians
maybe they shared clothing ( cap for sure ) weapons and some linguistic words

I cannot believe that Homer's Iliad is used like it's a historical document. Even Herodotus should be taken a a big block of salt. I mean 1 million Persians at Thermopylae? How the heck to you feed 1M people? The logistics burden would have been tremendous. Nothing we have found archaeologically supports that number at Thermopylae. Nothing we have found in Troy supports a 10 year old war with the numbers of combatants that Homer lists.

W will need samples and archaeological evidence from the putative areas that supposedly Phrygians and Dardanians settled to corroborate the myths.

 

[mount123]

But the surname Berisha is carried by different people/families/clans. No where did Kelmendasi play devils advocate by stating something like "real Berisha are this line or that". He stated a simple fact. There are unrelated Berisha. Now if he said the Berisha of Puka should be the same as those from Diber, you may have a point. There is no where in any history book that everyone who is a Berisha has to be from Puka or has to be E-V13. We can only say for certain those Berisha of Puka or those claiming to come from them MUST be E-V13 as this is the biggest Berisha fis/clan there is with that name. Most famous for sure.
As far as the Berisha fis of Diber mentioned with Skanderbeg, they are a tribe their own. And whilst many have theoretically tried to connect them to those of Puka, there is no actual evidence of that and now Y-DNA testing also confirms that they are not in fact related. Claiming those who have the surname Berisha that aren't from Puka is "equivalent to gypsies/roma" having that surname is extremely childish and insulting. Just because the Berisha of Puka are the largest and most popular with that surname, does not make other smaller fis with this surname Gypsies or insignificant.
I'm not sure what the etymology of Berisha is, but one would expect like "Gjergj" or "Gjon" that many can bare this name without any relation to the other.
It just so happens that those of Puka are the ones who are the most famous for it. And perhaps the Berisha mentioned in Latin records which would make sense.
I still don't see how he is being slimey or mischievous for stating simple facts.

They might assign themselves to the Berisha fis but that does not mean that they are Berisha in their core origin. Someone cannot neglect that most of the fise have a core origin.

However I too find it quite one dimensional to claim that there are not real Berishas outside of Puke because that is simply not true.

Kind of reminds of one comment that was made by some user here that claimed all Krasniqi must come from Tropoje and must be Hysenmeksh, Kolgecaj...blablabla Meanwhile the Prishtina Valley is filled with Krasniqi with nendege such as Nika, Bojku, Strofci etc. How can I as a Krasniqi nendeges Nika be descended from some Tropoje guy with the name "Hysen" a magjup word that popped up in the 17th century or most probably even later.

Also this Albania Centrism a la stalinist Hoxha type propaganda is quite funny: everything starts with that one guy in North Albania that fawked so many chicks and that is how all of these millions and millions of descendants came about. Yeah sure.

 

[Hawk]

What is Y-Dna of Berisha’s of Diber?


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afaik, they are some family from the village of Muhurr, who according to Rrenjet belong to J2a.

I cannot believe that Homer's Iliad is used like it's a historical document. Even Herodotus should be taken a a big block of salt. I mean 1 million Persians at Thermopylae? How the heck to you feed 1M people? The logistics burden would have been tremendous. Nothing we have found archaeologically supports that number at Thermopylae. Nothing we have found in Troy supports a 10 year old war with the numbers of combatants that Homer lists.

W will need samples and archaeological evidence from the putative areas that supposedly Phrygians and Dardanians settled to corroborate the myths.

Well, in reality Troy could have been plundered by Danubian Urnfielders on their way to Hattusa. Right after Troy's demise we see Knobbed Ware pottery, a sub-type of Channeled-Ware. Homer might have put unrelated events into one coherent event. As for Dardanians, they are indeed listed as one of the Hittite allies at the Battle of Kadesh. Whether they were related in any way with Iron Age Balkan Dardanians i don't know, but i guess yes, they might have shared common origin. Or maybe it's my confirmation bias playing a role here, but couple of Balkan and West Anatolian names having their analogy shouldn't be a coincidence. Like Dardanians and Moesi/Mysi.

 

[torzio]

I cannot believe that Homer's Iliad is used like it's a historical document. Even Herodotus should be taken a a big block of salt. I mean 1 million Persians at Thermopylae? How the heck to you feed 1M people? The logistics burden would have been tremendous. Nothing we have found archaeologically supports that number at Thermopylae. Nothing we have found in Troy supports a 10 year old war with the numbers of combatants that Homer lists.
W will need samples and archaeological evidence from the putative areas that supposedly Phrygians and Dardanians settled to corroborate the myths.

i never believed in a 10 year war or a war about helen
it was more like a 10 month trade war ..............Greeks wanted to get into the black sea for trade......they did not want to pay the trojan a fee to enter the black sea , the currents always pull ships to the southern part of the dardanelles
Troy only held between 6 and 8000 people.......armies where not huge in number

Conclusions about the existence and quality of buildings within the confines of the ditch have been drawn on the basis of several trial trenches and excavations, some of them covering a very large surface area. The layout of the city was confirmed by an intensive and systematic pottery survey in 2003. We have also discovered a cemetery outside the ditch to the south. The most recent excavations have determined that Troy, which now covers about seventy-five acres, is about fifteen times larger than previously thought.

 

[Johane Derite]

Macurdy believed the Dardanians of Troy to have spoken a language related to Phrygian & Macedonian, with their origins being in the Balkans.


Comparing many Trojan names that appear in the Iliad, she argued there were parallels found in Paeonia, Thrace, Macedonia, Epirus, etc.

For example, names ending with -ops in Trojans like Merops, Phaenops, Enops, Charops, Dolops, Dryops, etc, she compared directly to the Balkan Paeonian Derriopes, Ellopes, Dryopes, Almopes, etc.

She compares the group of Trojan names like Antenor, Agenor, Bienor, Deisenor, Hyperenor, as related /-anor-/ by-forms of Greek names with /-andros/:


Alexanor - Alexandros
Peisanor - Peisandros
Lusanor - Lusandros
Cassanor - Cassandra


Etc.

 

[Dibran]

What is Y-Dna of Berisha’s of Diber?


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They are J2a. The Berisha of Diber affiliated with Skanderbeg in the medieval. As far as I know they have nothing to do with Berisha of Puka historically, and there is zero evidence the surname was borrowed/taken from Berisha of Puka, regardless of how small of a clan they are.

 

[Dibran]

They might assign themselves to the Berisha fis but that does not mean that they are Berisha in their core origin. Someone cannot neglect that most of the fise have a core origin.

However I too find it quite one dimensional to claim that there are not real Berishas outside of Puke because that is simply not true.

Kind of reminds of one comment that was made by some user here that claimed all Krasniqi must come from Tropoje and must be Hysenmeksh, Kolgecaj...blablabla Meanwhile the Prishtina Valley is filled with Krasniqi with nendege such as Nika, Bojku, Strofci etc. How can I as a Krasniqi nendeges Nika be descended from some Tropoje guy with the name "Hysen" a magjup word that popped up in the 17th century or most probably even later.

Also this Albania Centrism a la stalinist Hoxha type propaganda is quite funny: everything starts with that one guy in North Albania that fawked so many chicks and that is how all of these millions and millions of descendants came about. Yeah sure.

Yea, the core Berisha origin is obviously those of Puka who are E-V13, and probably the same mentioned as Berissa in Latin documents. Definitely the overwhelming majority of the Berisha fis is those of Puka. However, as you say, it is quite one dimensional to claim that there are not real Berishas outside of Puke because that is simply not true, at least for the Berisha of Diber. Is there even an etymology in Albanian for it? was it a latin term? There is even a village in Turkey called "Berissa". Hawks tantrum is just that, a tantrum based on his projections. He is creating imaginary arguments that no one even brought up.

All that was clearly stated by Kelmendasi was that there are people with the surname Berisha who are not related to the well known famous Berisha of Puka. When speaking primarily of the Berisha of Diber mentioned in the time of Gjergj Kastrioti, there is absolutely ZERO evidence that they had anything do to with the Berisha of Puka. There was never any relation drawn between the two other than guesswork. No academic historical sources ever claimed they were related to those from Puka either. The actual Berisha of Diber who have presumably held that name since the time of Skanderbeg are in fact J2a and not E-V13.

Whether or not they "borrowed/took" this surname from the Berisha of Puka remains to be seen. I think some have tried connecting them to Mazreku. But again the Mazreku surname(at least those from Malesia) are J2b-L283(if I recall), and there may have been another guy from 23andme that was R1b(not sure from where). Which goes to show the Berisha of Diber were not Mazreku either. Unless its a heterogenous name they originally bore.

As for the Berisha of Librazdh, I am not sure they were tested. Perhaps it was just mentioned because there are people with that surname. There is also a 23andme match I have from Kosove that is Berisha and R-L1029, and he never claimed to be related to the fis. None of these people are "Gypsies/Roma" like this guy is claiming. In most cases they probably just adopted the surname somehow.

In the case of the historical Beirsha clan of Diber mentioned in the middle ages(however small), there is absolutely zero evidence they adopted the surname from Berisha of Puka. Maybe the important thing would be to trace its etymology and confirm whether it was a general term adopted by the famous well known Berisha, and possibly adopted by others elsewhere. If it was a personal name, I can't see why there would be some copyright on it as if someone else just by happenchance didn't name their child the same lol.

 

[Johane Derite]

The proto-Albanians became Christians around 300-500 AD.


We know this from the forms of ancient Christian terms in the Albanian vocabulary (i krishterë, lavdi, meshë, etc) that require the proto-Albanians to have learnt them in this period while certain sound laws were present.

 

[Hawk]

Them being J2a and quite small in numbers just makes it more believable that they adopted that surname. That lineage was probably absent among Proto-Albanoids. It was noted before that many of Islamized Serbs and Roma/Gypsies entered the Berisha tribe and sometimes Gashi to feel protected so why not at an earlier stage those from Muhurr as well.

 

[Johane Derite]

The proto-Albanians became Christians around 300-500 AD.


We know this from the forms of ancient Christian terms in the Albanian vocabulary (i krishterë, lavdi, meshë, etc) that require the proto-Albanians to have learnt them in this period while certain sound laws were present.

Belonging to the earliest layer of Christian vocabulary in Albanian there are also (to a lesser extent) non-Latin, "native" Albanian terms like i lumë, frymë, etc and compositions like imzot, tënëzonë, etc, that also suggest translation into Proto-Albanian by clergy.

 

[Dibran]

Them being J2a and quite small in numbers just makes it more believable that they adopted that surname. That lineage was probably absent among Proto-Albanoids. It was noted before that many of Islamized Serbs and Roma/Gypsies entered the Berisha tribe and sometimes Gashi to feel protected so why not at an earlier stage those from Muhurr as well.

Lol king of guesswork.

 

[Fustan]

But the surname Berisha is carried by different people/families/clans. No where did Kelmendasi play devils advocate by stating something like "real Berisha are this line or that". He stated a simple fact. There are unrelated Berisha. Now if he said the Berisha of Puka should be the same as those from Diber, you may have a point. There is no where in any history book that everyone who is a Berisha has to be from Puka or has to be E-V13. We can only say for certain those Berisha of Puka or those claiming to come from them MUST be E-V13 as this is the biggest Berisha fis/clan there is with that name. Most famous for sure.
As far as the Berisha fis of Diber mentioned with Skanderbeg, they are a tribe their own. And whilst many have theoretically tried to connect them to those of Puka, there is no actual evidence of that and now Y-DNA testing also confirms that they are not in fact related. Claiming those who have the surname Berisha that aren't from Puka is "equivalent to gypsies/roma" having that surname is extremely childish and insulting. Just because the Berisha of Puka are the largest and most popular with that surname, does not make other smaller fis with this surname Gypsies or insignificant.
I'm not sure what the etymology of Berisha is, but one would expect like "Gjergj" or "Gjon" that many can bare this name without any relation to the other.
It just so happens that those of Puka are the ones who are the most famous for it. And perhaps the Berisha mentioned in Latin records which would make sense.
I still don't see how he is being slimey or mischievous for stating simple facts.

No, you see: Kelmendasi is a sneaky propagandist from Rrenjet and Bruzmi is a kid editing wikipedia pages. Durite on the other hand is a completely insane individual with his obsession on the war of Troy and trying to project Albanians in every way possible into the event.

What's next from these people, calling Trojet a J2-L283 supremacist?

In all seriousness great post Dibran, great to see people put in their place after making ad homs.

 

[Hawk]

No, you see: Kelmendasi is a sneaky propagandist from Rrenjet and Bruzmi is a kid editing wikipedia pages. Durite on the other hand is a completely insane individual with his obsession on the war of Troy and trying to project Albanians in every way possible into the event.

What's next from these people, calling Trojet a J2-L283 supremacist?

In all seriousness great post Dibran, great to see people put in their place after making ad homs.

This is what you should be doing.

 

[Fustan]

I think it's you who should be playing some board games to calm your nerves, because your temper tantrums against great Albanian posters are just embarrassing.

 

[Hawk]

Derite has 7k twitter followers, and i think his posts are pretty good on general, what he has written about Troy there is nothing particularly wrong to it, i don't put too much effort into Homer's Iliad, but nothing wrong what he has written, obviously you don't like the fact when he mentions Dardani connection, and potential archeological connection.

Bruzmi on the other side has as much warning in wikipedia as posts lol.

 

[Fustan]

Derite gets banned on every forum he's on dude, he is actually insane. I don't deny that we have a connection with Dardanians, afaik they were Illyrians after all so why would I care? I'm saying he has quite an obsession with Troy and bases our entire ethnicity to fit into that saga, remind me to contact Todd Howard because I have found a great fantasy writer for the next Elder Scrolls.

As for Bruzmi, all of his posts on anthrogenica are great so far. He's successfully defended all sorts of crazy theories against E-V13, and is easily one of the most knowledgeable people on Albanian tribes that I have come across on fora. Kelmendasi has always been a great poster and has matured greatly since I first saw him post in 2017, so you having a temper tantrum against him but pull out the red carpet for a drooling moron like Derite is quite telling. And of course Bruzmi is going to get warnings on Wikipedia, the platform where Serbs and Greeks run amok. I'm even happier he's taking the initiative to properly edit Albanian related pages there because it used to be borderline futile.