Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Fustan]

He is a big time provoker as well, like a passive-agressive deceitful person, he has probably some insider admin doing the dirty job there, like he provokes people, and him and his friends report his posts so as to have the impression and justification to other admins that the person should be banned. He was even intentionally calling for the E-V13 thread to be closed, because he was irritated from the posts of Riverman.

Alex jones moment. At least Alex Jones is funny. All I see are ad homs. And I would also become at least slightly passive aggressive if I saw all of these mentally ill Slavs spout absolutely nonsense about one of the most defining male lines of my ethnicity as well.

 

[Fustan]

An Illyrian name being more related to Slavic than Albanian. This is the type of mental illness you get from taking a poem written by an ancient Greek too seriously.

 

[mount123]

I am very surprised and find it quite dubious that people here quote "academics" who draw conclusions from an undeciphered language. How much do we already know about Illyrian? Are there reconstructed sentences or any known writings? No. Do Illyrian terms show clear parallels to Albanian? Yes. Is there a Illyrian genetic continuity? Yes, especially a paternal one.


SEE in regards to the latter:


I4331, 1631-1521 BCE, Croatia_MBA Veliki Vanik J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y15058
I267261461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297
I24345, ~950 BCE, Croatia_MBA_LBA_EIA, Velim-Kosa, J-L283>
I23911, 844 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I23995, 743 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24638, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I24639, 681 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Smiljan, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I26742, 700 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Jazinka Cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>Z38241
I24882, 662 BCE, Croatia_EIA, Mala Metaljka, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z38240>PH1602>Y86930
I4998, 300 BCE, Hungary_IA_LaTene, Vas county, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058
I5691, 666 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Novo mesto, Kapiteljska njive, J-L283>>Z615>Z597
I22940, 475 BCE, Slovenia_EIA, Zagorje ob Savi, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z2507

 

[mount123]

Also those Daunian J-L283 ones show an Illyrian connection at least it would be very plausible.

 

[Archetype0ne]

The funny part though is that this is so repetitive and thus predictable that I even call the replies in my initial posts. The first couple of times my point was missed, hence I am not suprised to find it missed again.
Sad state of afairs, miq. Too much projection if you ask me.

On one hand this fella based on couple of surviving words and names claims Albanian is of Dacian/Moesian origin, but on the other hand because the loan words from 800 BC Greek are few surely it was picked up in the hinterland.
On one hand we do not know when exactly this immigration must have taken place but on but on the other hand the historical phonology of Proto-Albanian in the relation to the adaptation of place-names suggests a period from approximately 300 to 900AD.


hinterland

/ˈhɪntəland/




noun

1. 1.
   the remote areas of a country away from the coast or the banks of major rivers.
   "the hinterland of southern Italy"

Hinterland might as well have been Croatia, or Shkoder, but no this proves it was Moesia or whatever this sub 100 IQ fella wishes.


Comprehend this you condescending trash:
"These loans resulted from the earliest contacts between Greeks − either colonists of the Adriatic coastal regions or more probably Greek merchants in the Balkan hinterland − and Proto-Albanians from the 8th century BCE on."




"The otherwise chronologically late sound development of place names existing on Albanian territory is, on the one hand , a further counter argument against the supposed linear Illyrian-Albanian autochthony and, on the other hand, a clear indication of a very chronologically young immigration of Albanophonbes into their current homes."

We are reading the same text, but you think by knowing how to read you can lecture me on comprehension. I hope you did not study Linguistics mate, cause either your institution did not teach Epistemology or you were deficient in it.
A counter argument is one thing, a counter argument stating something clearly is an extension of that. Said clear thing stated is not a fact about reality, it is an extension of said counter argument.

Now please stop puking all over this thread with your high level comprehension.
And again, could have, likely, more probably... That is lack of data, that is wishful thinking, that is not based on any scientific criteria but make believe, by you or anyone else you base this on.
Now please read your signature again with your high level comprehension. Cubrilovic... right.

 

[mount123]

An Illyrian name being more related to Slavic than Albanian. This is the type of mental illness you get from taking a poem written by an ancient Greek too seriously.

It is a complete guessing game coming from a "scholar" who sells his "without a source" or "proof guesses" as facts. The natural sciences are at least reliable and based on facts: genetic evidence.

 

[Johane Derite]

Hinterland might as well have been Croatia, or Shkoder, but no this proves it was Moesia or whatever this sub 100 IQ fella wishes.

The Latin vocabulary in Albanian is almost entirely of the Eastern variety that proto-Romanians spoke. The Dalmatian variety was spoken in Croatia and Shkoder, this is just one factor why it has been known since the 20th century that proto-Albanian was not in Croatia. Seriously, I am trying to be polite but you low comprehension people are coming out of the woodworks in droves.

 

[Southpaw]

The Latin vocabulary in Albanian is almost entirely of the Eastern variety that proto-Romanians spoke. The Dalmatian variety was spoken in Croatia and Shkoder, this is just one factor why it has been known since the 20th century that proto-Albanian was not in Croatia. Seriously, I am trying to be polite but you low comprehension people are coming out of the woodworks in droves.

This was known for ages, long time before Matzinger, who in his 2018 paper he was arguing Albanian, Messapian and Illyrian share a common ancestor (which btw was firstly shared and highlighted by you, and Bruzmi probably even got familiar with it by reading your post), exactly at 2018 Andreas Lippert was leaning for archeological explanation of formation of Illyrians like Early Bronze Age continuation with a Danubian Urnfield influence during Late Bronze Age.

But now in 2021:

1. Matzinger after careful consideration splits off Albanian, Messapian from Illyrian the former two belonging to Balkanic IE and the latter looks more like an intruder East Alpine language(with the timeline currently unknown Early/Middle/Late Bronze Age?). We need to check what Y-DNA Messapians carried, if they are J2b2-L283 heavy, that means that J2b2-L283 originally was somewhat an Albanoid-like carrying lineage who got Illyrized by East Alpine Proto-Illyrians otherwise if they are non J2b2-L283 the Messapian (non-Italic Y-DNA) would be quite a telling for us. If they carried R1b-Z2103, E-V13, R1b-PF7562. Either one of them or a combination of two or three of them. Who knows.

2. Lippert dropped the Danubian Urnfield influence on favor of Early/Middle Bronze Age continuation largely. He drops it in favor of Albanian and Yugoslav archeologists which means the autochtonist theory is holding ground something which Aleksandar Stipcevic was against it, like too much of a simpleton theory.

 

[Johane Derite]

This was known for ages, long time before Matzinger, who in his 2018 paper he was arguing Albanian, Messapian and Illyrian share a common ancestor (which btw was firstly shared and highlighted by you, and Bruzmi probably even got familiar with it by reading your post), exactly at 2018 Andreas Lippert was leaning for archeological explanation of formation of Illyrians like Early Bronze Age continuation with a Danubian Urnfield influence during Late Bronze Age.

But now in 2021:

1. Matzinger after careful consideration splits off Albanian, Messapian from Illyrian the former two belonging to Balkanic IE and the latter looks more like an intruder East Alpine language(with the timeline currently unknown Early/Middle/Late Bronze Age?). We need to check what Y-DNA Messapians carried, if they are J2b2-L283 heavy, that means that J2b2-L283 originally was somewhat an Albanoid-like carrying lineage who got Illyrized by East Alpine Proto-Illyrians otherwise if they are non J2b2-L283 the Messapian (non-Italic Y-DNA) would be quite a telling for us. If they carried R1b-Z2103, E-V13, R1b-PF7562. Either one of them or a combination of two or three of them. Who knows.

2. Lippert dropped the Danubian Urnfield influence on favor of Early/Middle Bronze Age continuation largely. He drops it in favor of Albanian and Yugoslav archeologists which means the autochtonist theory is holding ground something which Aleksandar Stipcevic was against it, like too much of a simpleton theory.

Exactly, the entire point of why I post is to try share interesting and relevant info.

I posted that comment of his a lot because I thought it was important. Now that he has published this book in which he clearly treats messapic and illyrian as separate, and albanian and illyrian as separate, and where he even clarified that Balkan Indo-European doesn't even necessarily mean being phylogenetically related, it can just be contact areal, that changes everything.

So, we need to also be clear that Messapic is not proto-Albanian, there are some features that are closer to proto-Albanian than other languages, but this is still not the proto-Albanian language.

I have to say though, it is a special type of annoying to have some people try to argue with you with things you posted that were relevant 5 years ago and that we have moved on from.

 

[torzio]

I really do not understand what people read

Matzinger is saying that Messapic was created in Italy.......a mix of Illyrian from Iapodes ( daunians ) arriving 1000Bc and the local italic populace ( more likely an umbri ( samnite ) people)

this messapic developed in italy as an isolated language because these daunians did not mix ( as stated in the daunian paper )...........they kept only trading with Illyrian croatia (pots and other goods for another 600 years)

around circa 400BC , these messapics began to create their own pottery ( for the first time ) and trading it ..............it was traded to Greeks and Epirotes ...........this trade language , messapic, went from Italy to modern Albania and NW greece and the Ionion islands in did not go from east to west.

And Matzinger is not saying Messapic developed with the Iapodes ( north of the Liburnians ).

 

[Illyria]

Take the following post with a grain of salt, as I know this is a sensitive topic, just giving some thoughts/ideas for a discussion. Albanian has links to Illyrian, Thracian, many Latin loans, some non-IE words, etc, and combined with the fact we barely have material of the ancient Balkan languages, it's extremely difficult to tie it to just one language. Despite having links to Illyrian, and Thracian, and Dardanian, etc, they aren't enough to be conclusive. (According to today's linguists studying the Albanian language)

Maybe the Albanian language comes from a combination of ancient people, of the last surviving Illyrian tribes and the last surviving Dardanians, who found refuge in the mountains of Northern Albania, Montenegro, Kosova, following the Plague of Justinian & Slavic Invasions. During a time where a disease is causing widespread sickness, death, lack of food, heavy migrations, social and political instability, I think it would have been natural for the last fleeing ancient Balkan tribes to be aware that they aren't "barbarians" like the new invaders, and settle with native people who are like them. For example, a fleeing Thracian assimilating into a group of Illyrians, or Illyrian assimilating into Thracian, or a Romanized Balkan person, assimilating into Non Roman or Semi Romanized people, etc, you get the point.

An Illyrian + Dardanian combo would fit nicely with aDNA too, since the ancient West Balkans seemed to be heavy in J2b, with some R1b, and the Eastern Balkans, more heavy in E-V13, with some R1b and J2b2 (Although the samples from East Serbia, were after antiquity, around 400CE, and not from the core of Dardania, but slightly north east of its borders). We do need more samples from the Southern Balkans overall, to see if this genetic trend continued North-to-South, or if the Southern Balkans had more of a mixed bag of haplogroups (E+J+R)

Possible "layers" of the Albanian language:


-Illyrians from Illyria Proper (North-Central Albania, Montenegro, parts of Croatia and Herzegovina)
~Romanized Illyrians,
~Non-Romanized Illyrians, living in the mountains, avoiding Roman society in the lowlands


-Dardanians
~Romanized Dardanians,
~Non-Romanized Dardanian Rebels

-Important to note for Dardania:
~Was a Thracian tribe early on (Pre Roman)
~Became ruled by Illyrians later on (Pre Roman)
~Received more Daco-Thracian influence during Roman/Byzantine Era? From the ancestors of those who would later become Vlachs/Romanians?

Extra possible influences:
~Brygians (Thracians who went into Dardania, Paeonia, today's Albania, around 1200BC. Shortly after, into Anatolia. Did some stay behind? Did they impose their language in Albania? Or were they assimilated?)
~Paeonians (Illyrian/Thracian) (Stone tablet found by archeologists, reads of a person hailing from Albanopolis, Albanoi tribe in North Central Albania, 300BC or AD, can't recall) (Cities of Shkupi, Shtip, Sharr, proven to have developed from Albanian language, possibly from Dardanians/Paeonians)
~Triballi/Mysians (Celtic/Thracian/Illyrians?) (Resided around East Serbia, just outside of Dardania, where Proto-Albanian and Proto-Romanian contact might have taken place)

 

[enter_tain]

I don't know why we still talk about an "Illyrian language". Illyrian should be equivalent to Germanic, Slavic, or Italic. It's a bunch of different languages. Plenty of linguists have suggested different "onomastic" areas.

Even Albanian does not come from a single Illyrian language, but a southern Illyrian dialect spoken north of the Jirecek line where the Arben people lived.

Eric Hamp had a group called "Messapo-Illyrian" of which all the Illyrian dialects, Albanian, and Messapic came from.

 

[enter_tain]

Take the following post with a grain of salt, as I know this is a sensitive topic, just giving some thoughts/ideas for a discussion. Albanian has links to Illyrian, Thracian, many Latin loans, some non-IE words, etc, and combined with the fact we barely have material of the ancient Balkan languages, it's extremely difficult to tie it to just one language. Despite having links to Illyrian, and Thracian, and Dardanian, etc, they aren't enough to be conclusive. (According to today's linguists studying the Albanian language)

Maybe the Albanian language comes from a combination of ancient people, of the last surviving Illyrian tribes and the last surviving Dardanians, who found refuge in the mountains of Northern Albania, Montenegro, Kosova, following the Plague of Justinian & Slavic Invasions. During a time where a disease is causing widespread sickness, death, lack of food, heavy migrations, social and political instability, I think it would have been natural for the last fleeing ancient Balkan tribes to be aware that they aren't "barbarians" like the new invaders, and settle with native people who are like them. For example, a fleeing Thracian assimilating into a group of Illyrians, or Illyrian assimilating into Thracian, or a Romanized Balkan person, assimilating into Non Roman or Semi Romanized people, etc, you get the point.

An Illyrian + Dardanian combo would fit nicely with aDNA too, since the ancient West Balkans seemed to be heavy in J2b, with some R1b, and the Eastern Balkans, more heavy in E-V13, with some R1b and J2b2 (Although the samples from East Serbia, were after antiquity, around 400CE, and not from the core of Dardania, but slightly north east of its borders). We do need more samples from the Southern Balkans overall, to see if this genetic trend continued North-to-South, or if the Southern Balkans had more of a mixed bag of haplogroups (E+J+R)

Possible "layers" of the Albanian language:


-Illyrians from Illyria Proper (North-Central Albania, Montenegro, parts of Croatia and Herzegovina)
~Romanized Illyrians,
~Non-Romanized Illyrians, living in the mountains, avoiding Roman society in the lowlands


-Dardanians
~Romanized Dardanians,
~Non-Romanized Dardanian Rebels

-Important to note for Dardania:
~Was a Thracian tribe early on (Pre Roman)
~Became ruled by Illyrians later on (Pre Roman)
~Received more Daco-Thracian influence during Roman/Byzantine Era? From the ancestors of those who would later become Vlachs/Romanians?

Extra possible influences:
~Brygians (Thracians who went into Dardania, Paeonia, today's Albania, around 1200BC. Shortly after, into Anatolia. Did some stay behind? Did they impose their language in Albania? Or were they assimilated?)
~Paeonians (Illyrian/Thracian) (Stone tablet found by archeologists, reads of a person hailing from Albanopolis, Albanoi tribe in North Central Albania, 300BC or AD, can't recall) (Cities of Shkupi, Shtip, Sharr, proven to have developed from Albanian language, possibly from Dardanians/Paeonians)
~Triballi/Mysians (Celtic/Thracian/Illyrians?) (Resided around East Serbia, just outside of Dardania, where Proto-Albanian and Proto-Romanian contact might have taken place)

That's not how languages work. Albanian has certainly rules that follow it from PIE to modern day syntax/vocabulary. It can't be a mixture.

 

[enter_tain]

The Latin vocabulary in Albanian is almost entirely of the Eastern variety that proto-Romanians spoke. The Dalmatian variety was spoken in Croatia and Shkoder, this is just one factor why it has been known since the 20th century that proto-Albanian was not in Croatia. Seriously, I am trying to be polite but you low comprehension people are coming out of the woodworks in droves.

The Latin vocabulary in Albanian is much more varied than Romanian, because there are different layers/eras of borrowing. This shows that the 2 people were different.

" Romanian scholars Vatasescu and Mihaescu, using lexical analysis of the Albanian language, have concluded that Albanian was also heavily influenced by an extinct Romance language that was distinct from both Romanian and Dalmatian. Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly less than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact to Western Romance regions than to Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.^[36]"

 

[enter_tain]

In "The Albanian autochthony hypothesis from the perspective of linguistics", Matzinger argues:


-Proto-Albanians migrated to Albania ~300-900 AD
-North Albania has older Albanian presence than South
-Albanian ethnogenesis is result of Christian Albanian pastoral communities [shepherds] coming into confrontation with non-Christian Slavs
-The area they migrated from are the late antiquity provinces of Dardania, Moesia, Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis

He says that the approximate window of 300-900AD for the proto-Albanian migration is enough for the Gheg Tosk isogloss to have developed

Hahahaha. I love how Matzinger has to defend himself and say his analysis is not bullshit hoax. "This is definitely not a makeshift solution"

But it is. It's not only a makeshift solution, it's a solution to a non-existent problem brought on by your ignorance of history and archeology, where you don't even understand the concept of an exonym, you cereal box PhD.

 

[Johane Derite]

The Latin vocabulary in Albanian is much more varied than Romanian, because there are different layers/eras of borrowing. This shows that the 2 people were different.

" Romanian scholars Vatasescu and Mihaescu, using lexical analysis of the Albanian language, have concluded that Albanian was also heavily influenced by an extinct Romance language that was distinct from both Romanian and Dalmatian. Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly less than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact to Western Romance regions than to Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and Western Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.^[36]"

But this is not true. There is no such extinct romance language, this idea has not been supported by anybody in linguistics. There is no linguist today that could claim with a straight face that albanian has "more words in common in with western romance." This is a straight up lie and dishonest.

Matzinger wrote a paper about this also and debunked it:

L'elemento latino della lingua albanese - un impatto della Via Egnatia?
Joachim Matzinger

Abstract

According to a wide-spread theory, the Latin loanwords of Albanian originate from the Latin once spoken along the Via Egnatia which ran through Albania on its way to Byzantium. This theory implies the presence of Albanians in their actual territory already in ancient times in full accordance with the popular theory of an Albanian autochthony. However, a thorough investigation of the phonological history of the Latin loanwords and the Albanian toponymy reveals that they are affected by the same late sound laws. This indicates that both these lexical units have entered the Albanian language only in post-Christian times which creates a strong argument against the autochtony of the Albanians. The Latin loanwords of Albanian have thus been integrated when the ancestors of the Albanians were still dwelling in the Balkan hinterland, in some areas distant from the Via Egnatia."


All you seem to know is to post wikipedia pages.

The problem to why Albanian has a few western strain loans despite being mostly eastern strain was solved by noel malcolm and co, albanian comes from Dardania region.

Possibly also some of those latinised illyrians of the komani-kruja culture which spoke a western strain taught the proto-albanians these words, in the same way they taught them the toponyms scodra, durres, etc

 

[Johane Derite]

Some important quotes from Noel Malcolm on how the proto-Albanians were nomadic shepherds:


"linguists can often construct quite a detailed chronology, just like an archeologist examining different layers of wood-ash and broken pots.

They can point out, for example, that the Albanian names for the fauna and flora of the high mountain regions are purely Albanian, while the low-altitude vocabulary borrows heavily from Slav; the words for ploughing are mainly Slav, and so are many words for weaving, masonry and milling.

Much of the vocabulary of medieval government and society is also Slav-based.

This strongly suggests that the early Albanians led a mainly pastoral life in mountainous regions, before settling in lowland areas after the Slavs had extended their culture and rule.

And the evidence of place-names shows that Albanian-Slav contacts in the northern Albanian region must have happened before 900 at the latest: a vowel-shift in the Slav language took place by the end of the ninth century, and some Albanian borrowings from Slav preserve the pre-shift form of the vowel."


" Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways.

First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian;

and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.)"

"But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas."

"Presumably the Latin-speaking proto-Romanians came to pastoralism later than the early Albanians. If they had been doing it for as long as the Albanians, and in similar areas, they would - just like the Albanians - have escaped Latinization altogether."


"This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries.

The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.
"

 

[mount123]

Some important quotes from Noel Malcolm on how the proto-Albanians were nomadic shepherds:


"linguists can often construct quite a detailed chronology, just like an archeologist examining different layers of wood-ash and broken pots.

They can point out, for example, that the Albanian names for the fauna and flora of the high mountain regions are purely Albanian, while the low-altitude vocabulary borrows heavily from Slav; the words for ploughing are mainly Slav, and so are many words for weaving, masonry and milling.

Much of the vocabulary of medieval government and society is also Slav-based.

This strongly suggests that the early Albanians led a mainly pastoral life in mountainous regions, before settling in lowland areas after the Slavs had extended their culture and rule.

And the evidence of place-names shows that Albanian-Slav contacts in the northern Albanian region must have happened before 900 at the latest: a vowel-shift in the Slav language took place by the end of the ninth century, and some Albanian borrowings from Slav preserve the pre-shift form of the vowel."


" Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways.

First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian;

and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.)"

"But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas."

"Presumably the Latin-speaking proto-Romanians came to pastoralism later than the early Albanians. If they had been doing it for as long as the Albanians, and in similar areas, they would - just like the Albanians - have escaped Latinization altogether."


"This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries.

The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions.
"

The mysterious ghost shepherd nation...do you realize what you sound like?

 

[mount123]

This was known for ages, long time before Matzinger, who in his 2018 paper he was arguing Albanian, Messapian and Illyrian share a common ancestor (which btw was firstly shared and highlighted by you, and Bruzmi probably even got familiar with it by reading your post), exactly at 2018 Andreas Lippert was leaning for archeological explanation of formation of Illyrians like Early Bronze Age continuation with a Danubian Urnfield influence during Late Bronze Age.

But now in 2021:

1. Matzinger after careful consideration splits off Albanian, Messapian from Illyrian the former two belonging to Balkanic IE and the latter looks more like an intruder East Alpine language(with the timeline currently unknown Early/Middle/Late Bronze Age?). We need to check what Y-DNA Messapians carried, if they are J2b2-L283 heavy, that means that J2b2-L283 originally was somewhat an Albanoid-like carrying lineage who got Illyrized by East Alpine Proto-Illyrians otherwise if they are non J2b2-L283 the Messapian (non-Italic Y-DNA) would be quite a telling for us. If they carried R1b-Z2103, E-V13, R1b-PF7562. Either one of them or a combination of two or three of them. Who knows.

2. Lippert dropped the Danubian Urnfield influence on favor of Early/Middle Bronze Age continuation largely. He drops it in favor of Albanian and Yugoslav archeologists which means the autochtonist theory is holding ground something which Aleksandar Stipcevic was against it, like too much of a simpleton theory.

Messapic shows an Illyrian pattern and most probably a fusion with an Italic language. The similarities between Albanian and Messapic are clearly Illyrian and not from your weak passive ghost shepherd nation.

Proto Illyrian with a South Illyrian clade: I26726 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA, Gudnja cave, J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638

Most Albanians, Kosovars descend from this South Illyrian clade myself included.

 

[mount123]

Take the following post with a grain of salt, as I know this is a sensitive topic, just giving some thoughts/ideas for a discussion. Albanian has links to Illyrian, Thracian, many Latin loans, some non-IE words, etc, and combined with the fact we barely have material of the ancient Balkan languages, it's extremely difficult to tie it to just one language. Despite having links to Illyrian, and Thracian, and Dardanian, etc, they aren't enough to be conclusive. (According to today's linguists studying the Albanian language)

Maybe the Albanian language comes from a combination of ancient people, of the last surviving Illyrian tribes and the last surviving Dardanians, who found refuge in the mountains of Northern Albania, Montenegro, Kosova, following the Plague of Justinian & Slavic Invasions. During a time where a disease is causing widespread sickness, death, lack of food, heavy migrations, social and political instability, I think it would have been natural for the last fleeing ancient Balkan tribes to be aware that they aren't "barbarians" like the new invaders, and settle with native people who are like them. For example, a fleeing Thracian assimilating into a group of Illyrians, or Illyrian assimilating into Thracian, or a Romanized Balkan person, assimilating into Non Roman or Semi Romanized people, etc, you get the point.

An Illyrian + Dardanian combo would fit nicely with aDNA too, since the ancient West Balkans seemed to be heavy in J2b, with some R1b, and the Eastern Balkans, more heavy in E-V13, with some R1b and J2b2 (Although the samples from East Serbia, were after antiquity, around 400CE, and not from the core of Dardania, but slightly north east of its borders). We do need more samples from the Southern Balkans overall, to see if this genetic trend continued North-to-South, or if the Southern Balkans had more of a mixed bag of haplogroups (E+J+R)

Possible "layers" of the Albanian language:


-Illyrians from Illyria Proper (North-Central Albania, Montenegro, parts of Croatia and Herzegovina)
~Romanized Illyrians,
~Non-Romanized Illyrians, living in the mountains, avoiding Roman society in the lowlands


-Dardanians
~Romanized Dardanians,
~Non-Romanized Dardanian Rebels

-Important to note for Dardania:
~Was a Thracian tribe early on (Pre Roman)
~Became ruled by Illyrians later on (Pre Roman)
~Received more Daco-Thracian influence during Roman/Byzantine Era? From the ancestors of those who would later become Vlachs/Romanians?

Extra possible influences:
~Brygians (Thracians who went into Dardania, Paeonia, today's Albania, around 1200BC. Shortly after, into Anatolia. Did some stay behind? Did they impose their language in Albania? Or were they assimilated?)
~Paeonians (Illyrian/Thracian) (Stone tablet found by archeologists, reads of a person hailing from Albanopolis, Albanoi tribe in North Central Albania, 300BC or AD, can't recall) (Cities of Shkupi, Shtip, Sharr, proven to have developed from Albanian language, possibly from Dardanians/Paeonians)
~Triballi/Mysians (Celtic/Thracian/Illyrians?) (Resided around East Serbia, just outside of Dardania, where Proto-Albanian and Proto-Romanian contact might have taken place)

Exactly. People seem to forget that Dardania was ruled by Illyrians.