Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA
- Thread starter DejaVu
- Start date
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
ok folks, bibliography and material about Georgieve incoming 
Arta Sun Member
Posts: 1515Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:44 pmGender: FemaleLocation: USA Vladimir Georgiev on the origins of the Albanian language
#1
Post by Arta » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:52 pm
Soviet linguist Vladimir Georgiev on the origins of the Albanian language
Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)
VIII. Albanians and Rumanians
Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.
But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.
Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.
1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.
4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.
6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftë
Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.
7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.
The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem. The most important fact to be revealed has been the separation of Daco-Mysian from Thracian. It has thus been established that the phonemic system of Albanian is descended directly from the Daco-Mysian.
Let us consider some examples. The most typical features of the historical phonology of Albanian are attested in Daco-Mysian. Besides, in Daco-Mysian there also appear the intermediate phonetic changes that explain the peculiar phonetic development of Albanian. Here are some samples:
IE Daco-Mysian Albanian
e ie je
() > > o o
> o o
> ö > e e
> ü y, i
ew e e
aw a a
ri ri
a a
Examples:
IE e > D.-M. ie:
a Dacian tribe is named , but a Thracian one .
Dacian PN Diegis from IE dhegwwh-.
Dacian river name from IE *erðs-.
Dacian word dielina 'Bilsenkraut' from IE *dhel-.
IE > D.-M. > > o:
IE *dhw > D.-M. dva > dva > dova, cf. Pulpudeva (4th century b.c.), Buridava (1st century a.d.), Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.).
IE > oi > ö > e:
Salmor-ude 'Salt Water', a salt lake in Scythia Minor, in Greek called 'Salt (Lake)' and in Latin palus Salameir; Dacian ude from IE *udo(r) 'water'.
(2nd century a.d.) > Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.) from *pl-m *dhew 'Stutt-gart', cf. Alb. pelë 'mare'.
IE > oi (= ü) > ü (i):
, Moesi, Mysi.
In this way it has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.
Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;
Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman
link:http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=579
Arta Sun Member
#1
Post by Arta » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:52 pm
Soviet linguist Vladimir Georgiev on the origins of the Albanian language
Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)
VIII. Albanians and Rumanians
Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.
But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.
Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.
1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.
4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.
6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftë
Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.
7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.
The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem. The most important fact to be revealed has been the separation of Daco-Mysian from Thracian. It has thus been established that the phonemic system of Albanian is descended directly from the Daco-Mysian.
Let us consider some examples. The most typical features of the historical phonology of Albanian are attested in Daco-Mysian. Besides, in Daco-Mysian there also appear the intermediate phonetic changes that explain the peculiar phonetic development of Albanian. Here are some samples:
IE Daco-Mysian Albanian
e ie je
() > > o o
> o o
> ö > e e
> ü y, i
ew e e
aw a a
ri ri
a a
Examples:
IE e > D.-M. ie:
a Dacian tribe is named , but a Thracian one .
Dacian PN Diegis from IE dhegwwh-.
Dacian river name from IE *erðs-.
Dacian word dielina 'Bilsenkraut' from IE *dhel-.
IE > D.-M. > > o:
IE *dhw > D.-M. dva > dva > dova, cf. Pulpudeva (4th century b.c.), Buridava (1st century a.d.), Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.).
IE > oi > ö > e:
Salmor-ude 'Salt Water', a salt lake in Scythia Minor, in Greek called 'Salt (Lake)' and in Latin palus Salameir; Dacian ude from IE *udo(r) 'water'.
(2nd century a.d.) > Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.) from *pl-m *dhew 'Stutt-gart', cf. Alb. pelë 'mare'.
IE > oi (= ü) > ü (i):
, Moesi, Mysi.
In this way it has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.
Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;
Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman
link:http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=579
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
This is not bibliography. You have quoted the discussions between people in another forum.ok folks, bibliography and material about Georgieve incoming
Arta Sun Member
Posts: 1515Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:44 pmGender: FemaleLocation: USA Vladimir Georgiev on the origins of the Albanian language
#1
Post by Arta » Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:52 pm
Soviet linguist Vladimir Georgiev on the origins of the Albanian language
Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)
VIII. Albanians and Rumanians
Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.
But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.
Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.
1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.
4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.
6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftë
Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.
7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.
The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem. The most important fact to be revealed has been the separation of Daco-Mysian from Thracian. It has thus been established that the phonemic system of Albanian is descended directly from the Daco-Mysian.
Let us consider some examples. The most typical features of the historical phonology of Albanian are attested in Daco-Mysian. Besides, in Daco-Mysian there also appear the intermediate phonetic changes that explain the peculiar phonetic development of Albanian. Here are some samples:
IE Daco-Mysian Albanian
e ie je
() > > o o
> o o
> ö > e e
> ü y, i
ew e e
aw a a
ri ri
a a
Examples:
IE e > D.-M. ie:
a Dacian tribe is named , but a Thracian one .
Dacian PN Diegis from IE dhegwwh-.
Dacian river name from IE *erðs-.
Dacian word dielina 'Bilsenkraut' from IE *dhel-.
IE > D.-M. > > o:
IE *dhw > D.-M. dva > dva > dova, cf. Pulpudeva (4th century b.c.), Buridava (1st century a.d.), Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.).
IE > oi > ö > e:
Salmor-ude 'Salt Water', a salt lake in Scythia Minor, in Greek called 'Salt (Lake)' and in Latin palus Salameir; Dacian ude from IE *udo(r) 'water'.
(2nd century a.d.) > Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.) from *pl-m *dhew 'Stutt-gart', cf. Alb. pelë 'mare'.
IE > oi (= ü) > ü (i):
, Moesi, Mysi.
In this way it has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.
Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;
Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.
"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."~Harry S. Truman
link:http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=579
So the Illyrian speakers of southern/mountainous Illyria kept their language which became Albanian while the northern Illyrians started to speaker Latin and they settled in Dacia and probably reinforced what Latin was there as well as supplanted Dacian. Later, did Slavs settle in northern Illyria and displace Latin and Illyrian.
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
Here's the link of the full book, enjoy
https://books.google.it/books?id=xv...ge&q=georgiev studies about albanians&f=false
https://books.google.it/books?id=xv...ge&q=georgiev studies about albanians&f=false
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
I didn't mean they were there long before us, i meant to say how is it possible that albanian is a melting pot of names of any origin, while in other countries there is more of a homogeneous situation?
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
about slavic names in albania, i know that in serbia u don't find anymore of albanian city names, thank miloshevic and his mates for making our job more difficulty, actually was his goal, but i mean why we inherted such names and didn't change them for ours, look at slavs, u won't find in any slavic country except for dome cases non slavic names or toponysms of cites or regions, only exception that i know, kazan of tartar origin in russia and Galicia-Volhinya in ukraine of celtic orgin, at least galicia while volhinya is obviously slavic
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
I insist in my question in my post 387.
And please, avoid this us.
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
What kind of materials you want from me?
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
Like, about what u suppose we originated, your theories, how we survived latinization, from what tribe ak fis we come or what group, i would like to learn from a person with more experience than me, thx
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
Gannicus
Regular Member
- Messages
- 243
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L51
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H7
Ok, qe te provoj qe jam shqiptar se me thua, avoud this us, un vi nga divjaka, kam lindur dhe jetoi ne itali, prandaj te lutem mos me konsidero si nenji serb fake apo anti shqiptar, jam pak i dizinformuer ne kuestionin, por me aiq pak sa di provova te formuloja nji teori, faleminderit per zhdo gje.
LABERIA
Banned
- Messages
- 1,969
- Reaction score
- 294
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Albanian
Was you who posted it. Are your words. It`s not time to read it, it`s time for the source.
This thread has been viewed 701958 times.