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Why do native Iron Age Balkanites plot over modern Italians?

Çerç said:
Sorry but aren't you the one always saying Albanians are not of Illyrian stock? Mainly due to BA Croatia western PCA.
Click to expand...



I have always said that Albanians were NOT descended from Turks, but probably had more "Native" Balkan stock than any of the other Balkanites except for the Greeks, as indeed they do.

They have more Balkans Iron Age. Those are the only proximate samples we have.

What is clear is that Northern Italians are closer autosomally to Croatia Bronze Age than are Albanians. The genetics don't lie. Just run the samples and see the closest populations. It's not Albanians. That doesn't mean, for the umpteenth time, that Northern Italians are descended from them. We're just descended from similar people. How difficult can that be to understand?

Plus, who the hell said those are "Illyrian" samples? The "Illyrians" are actually attested much later, and we don't yet have Iron Age samples from their area. (The label Illyrians was first used by outsiders, in particular Ancient Greeks, at the beginning of the 8th century BC.) When we do have Iron Age samples from that area, we'll see how close, or distant, they are from Albanians. I personally hope they'll be close, just so our Albanian posters will stop with the paranoia.
 
I suggested using Northern Italians from 2018 to estimate the native admixture of Croats, before the genetic data:

ihype02 said:
Croats and Slovenes are autosomally closer to Ukrainians than to Italians despite of being gheographicaly right next to Italians.
There were also a lot of interaction between Slovenia, Croatia and Italy in the ancient times so that adds more weight to the evidence.
South Slavs are Slavs.
Click to expand...
ihype02 said:
Slovenia-map_0001-0300.png


1/3 of Slovenia was Italian in antiquity. As we can see, according to genetics it easy to see that Slavs did push the natives out, as Slovenes are genetically different from Italians, despite of being neighbors geographically, and they are much more close to central Slavs and Ukrainians.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

But yes, Slovenes are not quite South Slavs.
Click to expand...
 
Jovialis said:
Blablabla is the Romanian tr0ll I'm sure. I'm not going to go through the exhaustive motions of refuting his claims of Myceneans being semtic. Honestly, I wonder if this person ate lead-paint chips as a child.
Click to expand...

That or he stopped taking his meds. There's a limit to how much insanity and/or inability to absorb scientific material can be tolerated on a site before the threads become unreadable.
 
ihype02 said:
I was using Tuscans as a source for native Balkanites. Some late antiquity Roman samples overlap with Tuscans.
Click to expand...

I still don't get what you're doing.

Tuscans are not a SOURCE for anyone in the Balkans. They're a modern population descended, yes, from people similar to Iron Age Balkanites. That's a very different thing.
 
Angela said:
I still don't get what you're doing.

Tuscans are not a SOURCE for anyone in the Balkans. They're a modern population descended, yes, from people similar to Iron Age Balkanites. That's a very different thing.
Click to expand...

In the OP half of samples seem Tuscan-like (probably from the northern Serbia) and half of the samples seem BLG_IA like considering I don't have the coordinates of those samples I thought using modern Tuscans and BLG_IA as a source for Late Antiquity Balkanic ancestry in modern Albanians. Like using Northern Italians for Croats instead of HRV_IA, if you get what I am saying. (because I don't have ancient samples).

Albanians expanded from the north into Epirus in late Middle Ages so I don't think BLG_IA is exactly what Albanians ancestors were like before the Slavs. For Greeks and Bulgarians yes for Albanians no. Because the Slavic Y-DNA is lower in Albanians. But it's not a model that should be taken literally without proof (which I lack).
 
ihype02 said:
In the OP half of samples seem Tuscan-like (probably from the northern Serbia) and half of the samples seem BLG_IA like considering I don't have the coordinates of those samples I thought using modern Tuscans and BLG_IA as a source for Late Antiquity Balkanic ancestry in modern Albanians. Like using Northern Italians for Croats instead of HRV_IA, if you get what I am saying. (because I don't have ancient samples).
Albanians expanded from the north into Epirus in late Middle Ages so I don't think BLG_IA is exactly what Albanians ancestors were like before the Slavs. For Greeks and Bulgarians yes for Albanians no. Because the Slavic Y-DNA is lower in Albanians. But it's not a model that should be taken literally without proof (which I lack).
Click to expand...
So what sample do you want to use for North Italians as your noted not to use HRV_IA ..........this sample is
HRV_IA sample is Dalmatian I3313
Dalmatians are now Croats even though they have seeked Autonomy in the last 5 or so years
 
My results from Maciamo's Ethnicity Calculator may support Jovialis' point:

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #56FF00, align: right"]2.53019522[/TD]
[TD]26.80% Mycenaean_Greeks_(n=4) + 73.20% Villanovans_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Also,
[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #41FF00, align: right"]1.92071940[/TD]
[TD]63.60% Latins_(n=4) + 36.40% Iron_Age_Italian_Greeks_(n=2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

If half the ancestry of the latter was local, then I'm up to 82%. I'll take it. :)

So much for convoluted genetic history; quite simple, actually.
 
Last edited:
Jovialis said:
My preferences mean nothing.

The point is, Balkanites in the Iron Age were similar to Italians, and now they are not today, because of Northeastern European Ancestry. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Also, R1 and Aegean_IA are a good fit, as I have demonstrated. Both of those ancestries are in Italy, and are consistent with history.

Do you not read, not understand English? Or perhaps you are misrepresenting what I am saying on purpose?
Click to expand...


Exactly. Even the reasons for the similarity were pretty much the same, because its about a heavily Neolithic population, with different layers of Northern, more steppe-derived populations on top. The source of a lot of this more Northern Ancestry is Bell Beaker and Epi-Corded related, with Urnfield migrants on top.
No people with significant Balto-Slavic drift were involved, and while Cimmerians and Scythians were very influential in the catastrophies and cultural transformations, their genetic impact on the general population, autosomally, seems to have been rather limited.

But its also possible, that a certain "Italo-Greek" influx took place, which influenced even some of the individuals from the Iron Age cluster which were not directly Near Eastern shifted. But that could only be determined with unmixed, earlier locals, and those are, unfortunately, hard to get, because most did cremate. Not all though, so there is a chance we might see earlier Late Bronze and Early Iron Age samples from the same region, related to Channelled Ware (Belegis II-Gava) and Basarabi.
 
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1
This paper (which I adore) has been unpublished for one year, maybe Reich delayed the publication to maximize the impact of the 3 Southern Arc papers (just a speculation). Now the Southern Arc is out there.

Is it possible for some passionate member to include Olalde 21 results within the Southern Arc?
The motivation for this request is:
Olalde has quite a lot of E V13 samples, at least many more than the Southern Arc. Therefore It would be nice to see how they plot in the entire context.
 
Jovialis said:
My preferences mean nothing.

The point is, Balkanites in the Iron Age were similar to Italians, and now they are not today, because of Northeastern European Ancestry. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Also, R1 and Aegean_IA are a good fit, as I have demonstrated. Both of those ancestries are in Italy, and are consistent with history.

Do you not read, not understand English? Or perhaps you are misrepresenting what I am saying on purpose?
Click to expand...


Modern Balkanites are not descendants of Iron Age Balkans but are Slavs that absorbed some of the natives and some of the natives absorbed them. All the genetic change in the world in Romanians isn't going to change that Romanian is pre-Slavic for example despite they cluster like Southern Slavs. It's obviously a pre-Slavic language as is Albanian.
 
E-V13 from Bulgaria 400 AD,


[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]BGR_RomByz:I18792[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC300, align: right"]0.06171668[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:Corsica03708[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBA00, align: right"]0.06346178[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]0.06387743[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]0.06396440[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN195ST[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]0.06399733[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB600, align: right"]0.06434450[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:corsica29008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB600, align: right"]0.06438643[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB300, align: right"]0.06496235[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio:NOR24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]0.06522163[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]0.06547934[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]0.06552927[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:cera9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]0.06618620[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]0.06621579[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAB00, align: right"]0.06654698[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:Pu45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06698301[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania:NaN207MM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06700738[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio:PG28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06703950[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria:PG15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06712398[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA600, align: right"]0.06735527[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica:corsica1308[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA600, align: right"]0.06739127[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche:MarABY030D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA600, align: right"]0.06747220[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata:PG20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA600, align: right"]0.06751527[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:cera8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]0.06766655[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia:Pu7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]0.06767483[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria:PG05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]0.06772949[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria:PG03[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TH="class: cms_table_singleheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Target: BGR_RomByz:I18792
Distance: 4.8390% / 0.04838987[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.2[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Palestinian_Beit_Sahour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Rumelia_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.2[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Spanish_Penedes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.6[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Georgian_Megr[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]





[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TH="class: cms_table_singleheader, colspan: 2, align: center"]Target: BGR_RomByz:I18792
Distance: 4.8694% / 0.04869370[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]73.8[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]19.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.0[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_barchartmode1 cms_table_nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[TD="class: cms_table_singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_singlerightcolumn"]MAR_Taforalt[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #555555"]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Arbanoi said:
Modern Balkanites are not descendants of Iron Age Balkans but are Slavs that absorbed some of the natives and some of the natives absorbed them. All the genetic change in the world in Romanians isn't going to change that Romanian is pre-Slavic for example despite they cluster like Southern Slavs. It's obviously a pre-Slavic language as is Albanian.
Click to expand...

You don't see the logical inconsistency of the bolded statement?

Do you or do you not recognize that what you have said means that Modern Age Balkanites "are" descendants of Iron Age Balkanites?

Did you not see the post above where I specifically stated that Iron Age Balkanites absorbed the Slavic speakers and that's why the Modern Balkanites are no longer like the Iron Age Balkanites?

If you still don't get it, I can't help you out anymore.
 
Angela said:
You don't see the logical inconsistency of the bolded statement?

Do you or do you not recognize that what you have said means that Modern Age Balkanites "are" descendants of Iron Age Balkanites?

Did you not see the post above where I specifically stated that Iron Age Balkanites absorbed the Slavic speakers and that's why the Modern Balkanites are no longer like the Iron Age Balkanites?

If you still don't get it, I can't help you out anymore.
Click to expand...

Deleted for abject stupidity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's just how Central Europe looked genetically before Germanic and Slavic people moved there. They would have looked Italian/Illyrian. Modern Albanians plot very closely to Iron Age Hungarians too.

Europe would have been like

Northern European -> Germanic/Slavic

Central European -> Northern Italian/Illyrian/Albanian/Macedonian

Southern European -> Greeks/southern Italians

After the Western Roman Empire collapsed, everything became more north. Central Europe became more Northern European. Even modern Greeks started plotting more north.

The only people that didn't move much are Albanians and Italians. Albanians just moved a bit east because of Roman Empire/Slavs, but north/south they're the same, while Greeks started plotting more closely to them and other Balkan people like Bulgarians/Macedonians.
 
^^You are very confused.

You need to read the population genetics papers on the Neolithic Europeans and the arrival of the steppe people, as well as the most recent ones on the Balkans or you will continue to post nonsense which people who have done those things will ignore.

All Europeans have EEF, and although Southern Europeans have more than Northern Europeans, the French have about 55% EEF, the Germans about 45%, and the British close to 50%.

Northern and Southern Europeans aren't as different from one another as you seem to think.

Also, while we're at it, Northern Italians/Tuscans are not by any stretch of the imagination Central Europeans. We plot exactly where we should, in Southern Europe.

So, for that matter, whether you like it or not, do Albanians. You plot as eastern shifted Tuscans.

Have you guys never looked at a PCA either???

Now, go read all those papers. That should keep you busy for a while.
 
Angela said:
^^You are very confused.

You need to read the population genetics papers on the Neolithic Europeans and the arrival of the steppe people, as well as the most recent ones on the Balkans or you will continue to post nonsense which people who have done those things will ignore.

All Europeans have EEF, and although Southern Europeans have more than Northern Europeans, the French have about 55% EEF, the Germans about 45%, and the British close to 50%.

Northern and Southern Europeans aren't as different from one another as you seem to think.

Also, while we're at it, Northern Italians/Tuscans are not by any stretch of the imagination Central Europeans. We plot exactly where we should, in Southern Europe.

So, for that matter, whether you like it or not, do Albanians. You plot as eastern shifted Tuscans.

Have you guys never looked at a PCA either???

Now, go read all those papers. That should keep you busy for a while.
Click to expand...

I literally explained all of that in my first sentence

"That's just how Central Europe looked genetically before Germanic and Slavic people moved there."

Modern Central Europe is much more northern-European shifted because of Germanic/Slavic people. Iron Age Central Europe looked different.
 
enter_tain said:
I literally explained all of that in my first sentence

"That's just how Central Europe looked genetically before Germanic and Slavic people moved there."

Modern Central Europe is much more northern-European shifted because of Germanic/Slavic people. Iron Age Central Europe looked different.
Click to expand...

These people look pretty damn German to me, buddy. Time to go back to the drawing board.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Hallstatt_C-Early_La_Tène_IA:NOR2B6:Brunel_2020[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]4.68746200[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]5.37700660[/TD]
[TD]Austrian_Tyrol[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]5.93589083[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]6.29703899[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]6.58010638[/TD]
[TD]French_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.22600166[/TD]
[TD]German_Bavaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.40647690[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.76602859[/TD]
[TD]French_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]8.49966838[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.05790815[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.81259395[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.90850645[/TD]
[TD]Belgian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.27495985[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.64425197[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.74206684[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.78714554[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Catalonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.98484460[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla-Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.07091132[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.10686995[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.18919604[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.28115223[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.38317003[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.97440557[/TD]
[TD]Romanian_Transylvania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.16671941[/TD]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.27000000[/TD]
[TD]Serb
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Hilarious how my post got deleted for ''stupidity'' . I mean you must be joking ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

'' All origins become mysterious if we search far enough into the past. And almost all peoples, when we look at their earliest origins, turn out to have come from somewhere else. Before embarking on these origin quests, it is good to keep a few qualifying principles firmly in mind. First, it can never be said too often that questions of chronological priority in ancient history - who got there first - are simply irrelevant to deciding the rights and wrongs of any present-day political situation. Secondly, accounts of the earlier movements of peoples or tribes give a very misleading impression when they treat them as if they were unitary items, with unchanging identities, being transferred from place to place in a game of ethno-historical pass-the-parcel. In many cases (such as the migrations of the Franks in early western Europe) it is the movement of a people into a new territory or society that gives it an identity it did not previously have. Identities continue to develop over time: 'Serb' was a tribal label in the sixth century but not in the sixteenth, so that to treat 'the Serbs' as an unchanging category is as foolish as trying to identify Jutes and Angles among the subjects of Queen Elizabeth I.And thirdly, we should never forget that all individual ancestries are mixed -especially in this part of Europe. When a Serb today reads about the arrival of the early Serbs, he may not be wrong to suppose that he is reading about his ancestors; but he cannot be right to imagine that all his ancestors were in that population. The equivalent is true for the Albanians, and indeed for every other ethnic group in the Balkans. ''


''While most details about the movement of the early Slavs into the Balkans are unclear, the basic facts are known. A large tribal population of Slavs - among whom the Serbs and the Croats were two particular tribes, or tribal groupings - occupied parts of central Europe, north of the Danube, in the fifth and sixth centuries ad. The Serbs had their power-base in the area of the Czech lands and Saxony, and the Croats in Bavaria, Slovakia and southern Poland. This central European location was not the earliest known home of the Serbs; most of the evidence points to an earlier migration from the north and north-eastern side of the Black Sea. At that earlier period the Serbs and Croats seem to have lived together with more warlike Iranian tribes, and their tribal names may derive from Iranian ruling elites: Ptolemy, writing in the second century ad, located the 'Serboi' among the Sarmatians (an Iranian grouping) on the northern side of the Caucasus. Little is known about the Slavs' way of life in these earlier periods. The first descriptions we have of them are by Byzantine writers, who portray them as a wild people, more pastoral than agricultural, with many chiefs but no supreme leader. [1]''

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html



It is obvious you have no idea about Balkan history. People cannot be identified simply by genetics. Even then I2a1b is clearly a Slavic marker which moved into the Balkans and which brought Slavic languages.



What stupidty is there here ? All the genetics in the world isn't gonna change that proto-Romanian = native Balkan while Bulgarian, Serbian etc isn't.


 
Angela said:
These people look pretty damn German to me, buddy. Time to go back to the drawing board.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Hallstatt_C-Early_La_Tène_IA:NOR2B6:Brunel_2020[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]4.68746200[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]5.37700660[/TD]
[TD]Austrian_Tyrol[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]5.93589083[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]6.29703899[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]6.58010638[/TD]
[TD]French_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.22600166[/TD]
[TD]German_Bavaria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.40647690[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.76602859[/TD]
[TD]French_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]8.49966838[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.05790815[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.81259395[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.90850645[/TD]
[TD]Belgian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.27495985[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.64425197[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]10.74206684[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.78714554[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Catalonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.98484460[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla-Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.07091132[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.10686995[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.18919604[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.28115223[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.38317003[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.97440557[/TD]
[TD]Romanian_Transylvania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.16671941[/TD]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.27000000[/TD]
[TD]Serb[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

What are you even going on about? That Germans have no Germanic blood? 90% of those hits are just Italians and Spaniards.

Back then it was

Northern Europe -> Half steppe
Central Europe -> A quarter to a third steppe
Southern Europe -> One sixth or no steppe at all Minoans

Now with Czechs, Germans, etc... Obviously it's higher. But Italians, Illyrians, Rhaetians, (Thraco-Dacians?), were clearly derivates of Central European cultures that didn't become diluted like Greeks/Minoans.

You want to group Minoans and Greeks (or even Anatolian) who are like 0% or 7% steppe, to cultures that are 1/3rd steppe. That makes 0 sense.
 
Like I truly don't even understand what Angela is arguing. Italians and Illyrians were cultures that literally came from Central European intrusions. They just didn't dilute almost all their steppe ancestry moving south.
 
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