Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

Where is the right of Russia to secure its borders and sphere of influence,

The question is if this 'right' leads to a legitimation for an attack on the Ukraine. Imo by no means.

For the rest a spread of an autocratic regime with an ultra nationalistic agenda and a paranoid mind of Putin's Russia needs to be contained/ diminished.
 
@Riverman

Don't fret. Soon Putin's thug army will march into Austria where you can cheer it till you are hoarse!
 


The Russia-based journalist Kevin Rothrock posted this on Twitter today; the young man in the photograph is on a train in St. Petersburg. His message reads:
“This is my grandfather’s coat. During WWII, he starved as a child in occupied territory.
“Why do the gruesome themes of [those] long-ago stories echo in my time?
“I feel sick and scared. I don’t want war!”

Solidarity to all Russian people courageously protesting the illegal invasion of Ukraine!
 
The question is if this 'right' leads to a legitimation for an attack on the Ukraine. Imo by no means.

Not if that would be the sole reason, like what the Americans did time and time again. But you know in this case there are people in the Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, which want themselves to be part of Russia rather than the "new Ukraine" of Selenski & Co. That's a major difference for me. If there would be no ethnic connection and no will of the people in these regions to belong to Russia at all, I would look at it differently. But fact is, these regions and people do exist and have their own will. There are also a lot of Ukrainians, or at least there were way more, before the phasing of the Ukrainian society and the purge, which were pro-Russian.
So its not like the Russians have a claim on a completely hostile country, its divided and those part which are clearly pro-Russian should have the right to belong to Russia and not being forced into an Ukrainian state, with a new, completely anti-Russian regime. You know these people will just suffer from any reconquest of the Ukrainians. That's no just cause at all.

And the war effectively started when it became clear that the Ukraine refuses any peaceful arrangement to sort these two issues:
- Donbas and Crimea, including Crimean water supply and land traffic
- Ukrainian neutral status vs. NATO membership

There was absolutely no reason and no justification for the USA to push the Ukraine in a confrontation with Russia on these two issues. And there was no reason for the massive political and societal purge, the complete phasing and indoctrination of the Ukrainian society under the Selenski regime, with the arrest and diappropriation of the pro-Russian opposition. Even worse the shelling of the Donbas region, including civilian targets and the killing of pro-Russian leaders.

These things happened, "the international community" just ignored it, while Russia complained and applied, demanded that the peace agreement of Mink II being brought into effect, it never was.

So if this would have been an attack out of the blue, just to "secure the sphere of influence", without all that background and prehistory, then yes, I would say: Absolutely no right.

The way it was, I'd say Putin acted still wrong to go for a full scale assault on the Ukraine, but the Ukraine is no innocent victim of an aggression. By any means no. They did almost everything to provoke the Russians and to be confrontational, without any willingness to take negotiations seriously or consider the Russian perspective and interests, or to care for what the people in Donbas and Crimea want. That was pure force being built up by the Ukrainians too, no peace in sight.

The Ukrainians just acted unsavoury in Donbas themselves, and in the way they approached the Russians and the general "Russian problem". If a regime acts that way, I can't have a lot of sympathy for it, whether some pettifoggers and propagandists say they were right all along and with everything or not. Morally, they were wrong. Russia was not better, but that way they play in the same league, no perpetrator and victim relationship at all.

The real victims are both the Ukrainian and Russian common people, because they being used in this big strategical gambling by the US Biden, the Selenski and the Putin regime equally. Us Europeans, the vast majority, just tried to prevent this war, and if the USA would have acted like the Europeans did, this war would have never happened. It began because the Americans pushed and backed up the Selenski radicals, which started the cleansing, the purge of the Ukrainian state and society from all pro-Russians, which armed the forces up and made them taking an even more aggressive stance on Russia. That way, it became clear for Russia that a peaceful solution is not in sight, but the Ukrainians get militarily stronger by the day. This put them under pressure to attack as soon as possible. Without that pressure, and with a potential diplomatic solution in sight, Putin would have never started that way.
 
Not if that would be the sole reason, like what the Americans did time and time again. But you know in this case there are people in the Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, which want themselves to be part of Russia rather than the "new Ukraine" of Selenski & Co. That's a major difference for me. If there would be no ethnic connection and no will of the people in these regions to belong to Russia at all, I would look at it differently. But fact is, these regions and people do exist and have their own will. There are also a lot of Ukrainians, or at least there were way more, before the phasing of the Ukrainian society and the purge, which were pro-Russian.
So its not like the Russians have a claim on a completely hostile country, its divided and those part which are clearly pro-Russian should have the right to belong to Russia and not being forced into an Ukrainian state, with a new, completely anti-Russian regime. You know these people will just suffer from any reconquest of the Ukrainians. That's no just cause at all.

And the war effectively started when it became clear that the Ukraine refuses any peaceful arrangement to sort these two issues:
- Donbas and Crimea, including Crimean water supply and land traffic
- Ukrainian neutral status vs. NATO membership

There was absolutely no reason and no justification for the USA to push the Ukraine in a confrontation with Russia on these two issues. And there was no reason for the massive political and societal purge, the complete phasing and indoctrination of the Ukrainian society under the Selenski regime, with the arrest and diappropriation of the pro-Russian opposition. Even worse the shelling of the Donbas region, including civilian targets and the killing of pro-Russian leaders.

These things happened, "the international community" just ignored it, while Russia complained and applied, demanded that the peace agreement of Mink II being brought into effect, it never was.

So if this would have been an attack out of the blue, just to "secure the sphere of influence", without all that background and prehistory, then yes, I would say: Absolutely no right.

The way it was, I'd say Putin acted still wrong to go for a full scale assault on the Ukraine, but the Ukraine is no innocent victim of an aggression. By any means no. They did almost everything to provoke the Russians and to be confrontational, without any willingness to take negotiations seriously or consider the Russian perspective and interests, or to care for what the people in Donbas and Crimea want. That was pure force being built up by the Ukrainians too, no peace in sight.

The Ukrainians just acted unsavoury in Donbas themselves, and in the way they approached the Russians and the general "Russian problem". If a regime acts that way, I can't have a lot of sympathy for it, whether some pettifoggers and propagandists say they were right all along and with everything or not. Morally, they were wrong. Russia was not better, but that way they play in the same league, no perpetrator and victim relationship at all.

Nonsense Putin started long time ago his revenge agenda. Putin is complete paranoia. They have justify the war with Ukraine as "denazification" and "liberation" of the Ukrainians. They didn't respect a sovereign country. Simple as that.

Does this mean that everything Zelenski of other Ukrainians do is out of question. No of course not. That country has also an oligarch culture, has corruption etc etc. Nevertheless most people want to live in freedom. They don't want to be part of the Putin regime. And that is not respected.

Why do you care for the Putin clan Riverman....What is so attractive about that totalitarian regime? The sooner Putin leaves the better....
 
@Riverman

Don't fret. Soon Putin's thug army will march into Austria where you can cheer it till you are hoarse!

I just want peace and good relationships with Russia. Like we had it all the time since 1955. The same should apply to all of Europe and Ukraine wouldn't have gotten into trouble without the American interferences there too. The very idea that Russia would, without a NATO attack, march all the way to Austria or Germany is ridiculous. They won't even touch the Baltics, as long as they don't get attacked. Putin is not as insance as the American commenters which demand the POTUS to start World War III. That's just the caricature of his person in ths war propaganda.
 
Nonsense Putin started long time ago his revenge agenda. Putin is complete paranoia. They have justify the war with Ukraine as "denazification" and "liberation" of the Ukrainians. They didn't respect a sovereign country. Simple as that.

Does this mean that everything Zelenski of other Ukrainians do is out of question. No of course not. That country has also an oligarch culture, has corruption etc etc. Nevertheless most people want to live in freedom. They don't want to be part of the Putin regime. And that is not respected.

Why do you care for the Putin clan Riverman....What is so attractive about that totalitarian regime? The sooner Putin leaves the better....

Hear! Hear!:mad:
 
I just want peace and good relationships with Russia. Like we had it all the time since 1955. The same should apply to all of Europe and Ukraine wouldn't have gotten into trouble without the American interferences there too. The very idea that Russia would, without a NATO attack, march all the way to Austria or Germany is ridiculous. They won't even touch the Baltics, as long as they don't get attacked. Putin is not as insance as the American commenters which demand the POTUS to start World War III. That's just the caricature of his person in ths war propaganda.

Yes with a democratic Russia not with an autocratic Russia in North Korean style. And he is insane because his certainly aims at the Baltics as part of the old sphere of influence....All apologies Riverman....disgusting!
 
Nonsense Putin started long time ago his revenge agenda. Putin is complete paranoia. They have justify the war with Ukraine as "denazification" and "liberation" of the Ukrainians. They didn't respect a sovereign country. Simple as that.

They shelled and killed Donbas people, all the time, and they prepared for an aggression, for the "reconquest of the Donbas" - on the long run even Crimea. They were not willing to make peace. The Ukrainian side cut off Crimea from water supply, so that the whole country was drying out. You tell me this means nothing? The war started in 2014 and all peace agreements, all proposals by Russia were refused by the Ukrainians. They didn't even negotiate in a serious manner at all! They just waited for more weapons and more NATO support, so that they can solve the issue by brute force, just like Russia tries it now.
Where is the difference?
Everybody knew that the Donbas area is pro-Russian, Russian ethnically and being supported by Russia. So what did they expect if attacking and threatening them? They gave the people in Donbas no peace, no diplomatic pathway to a peaceful solution. Minsk II didn't even demand that they completely give up on Donbas, it just meant that they would have gotten their own administration and autonomy, amnestry for the pro-Russian activists and fighters. What did the Ukrainians do instead? They started the persecuation of all pro-Russian and any opposition in that direction throughout the country, even arrested the high ranking opposition leaders, diappropriated some of them, closed the TV and other media outlets, started the phasing of society.

Just because the American propaganda constantly ignores the prehistory and reality of the conflict, doesn't mean I do.

No, Russia shouldn't have started a full scale war, shouldn't have invaded all of Ukraine, shouldn't destroy all those lifes. But to blame it all on the Russians and say the Ukrainians were all fine and did right, were so innocent and nice people, nobody can understand why the Russians got mad, that narrative is beyond ridiculous and completely biased.

The Ukrainian Selenski regime is not just corrupt and allows the oligarchs to practically partition the country, it was autocratic and radical itself, forcing all Russians and pro-Russians into opposition or out of the country. This was a war since 2014 and the Ukrainians did not enough for a peaceful solution, and the USA only added fuel to the fire. And that's the truth. Its a completely unnecessary war, and I'm not particularly fond of any side or any sides actions. But this stupid narrative about "only Russians are responsible and the Selenski regime is so great" just makes me angry, because its a biased, blatant, completely absurd lie about what led to this escalation.

In short and simple words: They constantly poked Russia in the eye, what do you expect? Russia had no right to escalate the way it did, Ukraine had no right to be that provocative and aggressive towards Russia and the pro-Russians within its borders.

Yes with a democratic Russia not with an autocratic Russia in North Korean style. And he is insane because his certainly aims at the Baltics as part of the old sphere of influence....All apologies Riverman....disgusting!

Where is the proof for Russia having any plans on invading or even just pressing the Baltic countries? That would go way too far for me as well, but where is the evidence? There is not the slightest indication Russia would attack the Baltic states, unless they being attacked by NATO, then they would, most likely. But like in the Ukrainian case: The Ukrainians attacked Donbas, Russia attacked Ukraine.
Similarly: If the NATO attacks Russia directly, they might attack the Baltic states, Poland, probably even beyond.

Which fault would that be?

I made absolutely clear that any transgression of Russia to the West is completely unacceptable for me. Even if they try to occupy the Ukraine, its unacceptable for me, as soon as the Ukrainians made an acceptable peace offer to Russia. As of now, Selenski and the USA just spit the Russians in the face, they are not even close to serious negotiations and playing clowns.
Like giving up all territories of the 1990's borders of Ukraine, including Crimea (!), paying reparations? What else? Performing a bear dance in front of the American Senate?

If people make such claims, if people act that way, they want no peace, they don't want a political solution, they just want a brutal war and hope they can bleed out their enemy. And I have no sympathy for that kind of "strategy" on the back of the people on the ground. For conquering territories back which don't even want to be part of this "new Ukraine".
 
Специальная операция по денацификации магазина на заправке в Херсоне // Special operation to denazify a store at a gas station in Kherson

<span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span class="JLqJ4b ChMk0b" data-language-for-alternatives="en" data-language-to-translate-into="ru" data-phrase-index="0" data-number-of-phrases="1"><span>

as I wrote on the other forum - they are masters of liberation... from money, freedom and so on
 
I just want peace and good relationships with Russia. Like we had it all the time since 1955. The same should apply to all of Europe and Ukraine wouldn't have gotten into trouble without the American interferences there too. The very idea that Russia would, without a NATO attack, march all the way to Austria or Germany is ridiculous. They won't even touch the Baltics, as long as they don't get attacked. Putin is not as insance as the American commenters which demand the POTUS to start World War III. That's just the caricature of his person in ths war propaganda.

You are delusional.

Putin is deluded too and power-mad.
Like all political chancers he will push and push to see how far he can go.
The Baltic States are in danger.
 
Why do you prefer authoritarian Russian rule in Europe to the soft-power domination of the USA?

Or do you even prefer China which is much stronger than Russia economically and even militarily?
 
You are delusional.

Putin is deluded too and power-mad.
Like all political chancers he will push and push to see how far he can go.
The Baltic States are in danger.

If NATO respects red lines and Ukraine and Russia coming to a diplomatic, peaceful solution: No way they being threatened.
The only way they could get threatened is, if this conflict gets drawn out, the Selenski regime and the USA stick to their "no compromise, war whatever it costs" mantra and keep on fighting against Russia, without building any diplomatic bridge for the Russians to come to terms. And any bridge must at least give Russia Crimea, guarantee water supply, come up with a fair solution for Donbas (minimum: autonomy) and a neutral Ukrainian status, at least for a blocking period (they wouldn't have been allowed to join in the next years anyway).
If Ukraine accepts that, they are free, they can come closer to the West, and the pro-Russians can join their Russia. All but warmongers should be happy, and this solution could have been achieved nearly a decade ago. But no, Selenski and the USA were on war course, just as Putin.

Therefore if you care about the Ukrainians, if you care about the safety of the Baltic states: Make peace with Russia, don't escalate the war.

The Ukraine, without Crimea and Donbas presumably, would get guarantees from all major powers. It would serve as a buffer and even yet another transgression of Russia would get punished. The Baltics would be completely out of question for Russia and remain such. Russia will be more Eastward oriented and have enought to do to recover and keep the Islamists out of the Caucasus and Central Asia.

The only way the Baltic states get seriously threatened within the next years is because the West escalates and doesn't come to a peaceful solution with Russia. New situation for Ukraine, sanctions lifted, probably in steps, over years, depending on the Russian behaviour as well, but as a road to peace.

Yes with a democratic Russia not with an autocratic Russia in North Korean style. And he is insane because his certainly aims at the Baltics as part of the old sphere of influence....All apologies Riverman....disgusting!

Do you really think that its smart of the Biden administration to seek conflict with Russia? Russia made every attempt to come closer to the West, yet it was always denied, many times by Biden personally. In an absolutely disrespectful and hostile manner, which is something important to stress as well. Russia got, step by step, aliented by the West, and Ukraine was the last, completely absurd straw, which broke the link.
You think it is smart to do that to the Russians? Not just Putin, the Russians?!
Or necessary, in any way?
I don't.

The Americans should have sought closer relationships with Russia, instead of pushing it into Chinas arms. This is one of the most stupid decisions by those old American politicians, those Cold War relics, they did in the last decades, to seek revenge and humiliation of Russia. They are no better than Putin and his KGB agents, because just like with the Ukraines, he made a lot of reasonable offers, it was the USA - not even the West, the USA specificially (!!!) - which blocked it all. Many European states were looking forward, it was the USA which was the bone of contention all the time. By playing out the Eastern European states against Russia, and trying to go from one regime change to another in the former GUS states.

That's gone, and we can happy if it doesn't end in World War III. But if anything, this absolutely stupid, anti-Russian, hateful policy of the old American elites, people like John McCain comes to mind as a particularly aggressive individual which wouldn't have learnt his lesson - not by chance he was a Trump-hater - destroys its own most reasonable strategy. Which is to not have Russia and China against their hegemony. Because whatever people say, Russia is still, militarily, more dangerous than China. China is on the contrary way more economically potent and will transform its technological knowledge, it gained from Western business contacts, into military prowess. But they are not there yet, they need the Russian ally, for its military and ressources.
So again: It was blatantly stupid and arrogant to attack and humiliate the Russians, to block them from a closer alliance with the West, for decades now. That was the USA which did it, this old senatorial and oligarchic elite, which wants to bring Russia down. And first Syria, now Ukraine, is just their playground to try it, at the back of the people there, and by risking World War III.
Its ugly, its irresponsible and its plain stupid at the same time, just covered up by all their usual hypocrisy the media under their control spills over us.
 
The Ukraine, without Crimea and Donbas presumably, would get guarantees from all major powers.

They already got guarantees from all major powers including Russia, in exchange for getting rid of their nukes.

And that was a mistake. No country is safe without nukes as long as they border countries which do have nukes.
 
They already got guarantees from all major powers including Russia, in exchange for getting rid of their nukes.

And that was a mistake. No country is safe without nukes as long as they border countries which do have nukes.

That was in a time when Russia was not just weak, but the Ukraine was clearly a friendly state, considered being part of the Russian sphere of influence. Do you know what else was promised at that time? To Gorbachev? That the NATO would never expand Eastwards. Do you know what the answer was, to Putin, when he confronted Western leaders: There is nothing written about it, it was just an oral agreement, and it was made to the Soviet Union - not Russia. :LOL:
Imagine you are sitting there, as Putin, and people, when getting cornered, tell you that "joke".

Seriously, Ukraine under Selenski got clearly weaponised against Russia, and no peace in sight, not even a guarantee for the naval base in Crimea. This is like the new Ukraine getting guarentees, but then they start to actively support Islamists in the Caucasus and Syria, while doing terror attacks on Russians. Then the former treaties being broken. Ukraine has no reason to be an anti-Russian bastion, they can go their way, but leaving Russians alone and trying to have friendly relations. That's how you get peace. Putin was, as far as I can tell, never unreasonable. He might become brutal, if he thinks there is no other way, but he is no maniac or out of his mind. You can negotiate with him and his regime, and like I wrote before: He won't be there forever anyway. And besides: Which Russian leader can now abandon Donbas and Crimea just like that? Getting all the refugees from there, which will come to Russia, and remind them of their humiliating defeat?
Anybody who thinks thats just "a Putin thing" is absolutely wrong. Its a Russian issue, and they have their legitimate claims.

Just because some youths which don't care for anything beyond the individual scope, under Western influence, don't agree with Putin, doesn't mean the rest of the country thinks the same. Why should they? Being nationally crippled and brothers in Donbas raped is no honour. It can't be, to any Russian who cares.

The Ukrainians might be even more mad, and rightly so, but if its about Donbas and Crimea, they have no much more right to those territories than the Russians do. Make a plebiscit if you like, but don't conquer them by force (again), that's not a just cause. Freedom for the Ukrainians is a just cause, but only for those which want to belong to this state, not forcing people under its rule, which want to belong to Russia.
 
If NATO respects red lines and Ukraine and Russia coming to a diplomatic, peaceful solution: No way they being threatened.
The only way they could get threatened is, if this conflict gets drawn out, the Selenski regime and the USA stick to their "no compromise, war whatever it costs" mantra and keep on fighting against Russia, without building any diplomatic bridge for the Russians to come to terms. And any bridge must at least give Russia Crimea, guarantee water supply, come up with a fair solution for Donbas (minimum: autonomy) and a neutral Ukrainian status, at least for a blocking period (they wouldn't have been allowed to join in the next years anyway).
If Ukraine accepts that, they are free, they can come closer to the West, and the pro-Russians can join their Russia. All but warmongers should be happy, and this solution could have been achieved nearly a decade ago. But no, Selenski and the USA were on war course, just as Putin.

Therefore if you care about the Ukrainians, if you care about the safety of the Baltic states: Make peace with Russia, don't escalate the war.

The Ukraine, without Crimea and Donbas presumably, would get guarantees from all major powers. It would serve as a buffer and even yet another transgression of Russia would get punished. The Baltics would be completely out of question for Russia and remain such. Russia will be more Eastward oriented and have enought to do to recover and keep the Islamists out of the Caucasus and Central Asia.

The only way the Baltic states get seriously threatened within the next years is because the West escalates and doesn't come to a peaceful solution with Russia. New situation for Ukraine, sanctions lifted, probably in steps, over years, depending on the Russian behaviour as well, but as a road to peace.



Do you really think that its smart of the Biden administration to seek conflict with Russia? Russia made every attempt to come closer to the West, yet it was always denied, many times by Biden personally. In an absolutely disrespectful and hostile manner, which is something important to stress as well. Russia got, step by step, aliented by the West, and Ukraine was the last, completely absurd straw, which broke the link.
You think it is smart to do that to the Russians? Not just Putin, the Russians?!
Or necessary, in any way?
I don't.

The Americans should have sought closer relationships with Russia, instead of pushing it into Chinas arms. This is one of the most stupid decisions by those old American politicians, those Cold War relics, they did in the last decades, to seek revenge and humiliation of Russia. They are no better than Putin and his KGB agents, because just like with the Ukraines, he made a lot of reasonable offers, it was the USA - not even the West, the USA specificially (!!!) - which blocked it all. Many European states were looking forward, it was the USA which was the bone of contention all the time. By playing out the Eastern European states against Russia, and trying to go from one regime change to another in the former GUS states.

That's gone, and we can happy if it doesn't end in World War III. But if anything, this absolutely stupid, anti-Russian, hateful policy of the old American elites, people like John McCain comes to mind as a particularly aggressive individual which wouldn't have learnt his lesson - not by chance he was a Trump-hater - destroys its own most reasonable strategy. Which is to not have Russia and China against their hegemony. Because whatever people say, Russia is still, militarily, more dangerous than China. China is on the contrary way more economically potent and will transform its technological knowledge, it gained from Western business contacts, into military prowess. But they are not there yet, they need the Russian ally, for its military and ressources.
So again: It was blatantly stupid and arrogant to attack and humiliate the Russians, to block them from a closer alliance with the West, for decades now. That was the USA which did it, this old senatorial and oligarchic elite, which wants to bring Russia down. And first Syria, now Ukraine, is just their playground to try it, at the back of the people there, and by risking World War III.
Its ugly, its irresponsible and its plain stupid at the same time, just covered up by all their usual hypocrisy the media under their control spills over us.

This is the clear long time story Rivermman. Putin has witnessed the collaps of the SU, from KGB spy to taxi driver. The revenge mindset and the ultra nationalistic agenda was already on his mind back then....

This is a clear example of this, who is the clear enemy of the Russian, according to the Putin followers: the West.

The Kremlin rhetoric has been building up for at least 15 years....


In 2007 Dutch artist Daya Cahen was the only outsider allowed to film extensively inside the summer training camp of Vladimir Putin’s radical and patriotic youth movement Nashi (Ours), known for breaking up anti-Putin demonstrations and using violence against Putin’s opponents.




In this summer camp 10.000 Russian boys and girls are preparing themselves for a heroic future. They spend two weeks in lockdown, while red banners and loudspeakers hanging from the dome tents in the woods tell them what their future should be. They are the chosen ones of Russia; the future managers, politicians and military leaders of the country. The aim of the movement is to make Russia a great and invincible nation. A manifest is teaching them to sacrifice their life for their country, while Putin looks down on them from behind the trees.




At the same time the West is ridiculed and anti-American sentiments are enforced by role-play of ever drunken Americans and Putin’s opponents in prison clothes, portrayed as fascists and placed behind barbed wire. In the film Cahen splits the screen to visually multiply the already looming impression of impending fascism and reveals how a seemingly innocent summer camp can become an important tool for indoctrination and radicalization.




In the present time we can look at the work in a different light and might see how already over a decade ago a generation of young Russians were being carefully prepared to perceive Russia as “the global leader of the 21st Century”. The film provides insight into the forge of the system's leaders and the system itself.
https://dayacahen.com/work/nashi-video

At the same time the West is ridiculed and anti-American sentiments are enforced by role-play of ever drunken Americans and Putin’s opponents in prison clothes, portrayed as fascists and placed behind barbed wire.

This doesn't differ from Putin's the rhetoric to justify the attack on the Ukraine. But this was loooooong before the Ukrainian became a conflict area....

Does this exclude nasty things from the Ukrainians against Russian minority in the Donbass: no. Do I justify this: no.

But this is the bigger picture. Russia under Putin has an ultra nationalistic, revenge kind anti Western agenda. If it wasn't the Ukraine than a potential conflict with one of the Baltic countries could be the cause for such an attack.You are stucked to some riddling details and you are too much Putin Versteher and Verzeiher....why? I don't know....Do you share is nationalistic claims? Do you feel affinity to his authoritarian regime? Do you share his anti liberal democracy stance? What is it Riverman too show so much sympathy for Putin?
 
I ignore the rest, that's just propaganda from both sides, not important. What's important:
Does this exclude nasty things from the Ukrainians against Russian minority in the Donbass: no. Do I justify this: no.

Russia complained for years, officially, in the UN, on every occassion, in every international organisation. They demanded the agreements, especially Minsk II, an agreement arranged with Western powers included, to be applied. What did the Ukrainians do? They persecuted Russians, all pro-Russians, mass arrests, TV stations closed, people getting disappropriated and imprisoned. The oligarch Kolomoyskyi played a bounty for every Russian soldier captured (or killed?), pro-Russians included. That was the guy which "invented" Selenski on his TV stations.

What did the international community for the peace? The Europeans tried, but again, the USA blocked and with Selenski, with this guy which promised a diplomatic peace, but became a warmonger, as soon as he was in office, just like he protected his patron, Kolomoyskyi, even though always talking about "anti-corruption".
Do you even know his policy in practise was?

Just on Kolomoyskyi TV, the Western TV make a "hero" out of him, they invent an "anti-Russian" hero. Its ridiculous how he plunged Ukraine into this unnecessary war by his actions, by what he did with Russia - even the Ukrainians voted for peace, but he just didn't deliver, because he had different interests obviously.

Nobody did help the Russians, nobody did care for its protected people in Donbas, or its legitimate concerns about the Ukraine getting armed and indoctrinated in a clearly anti-Russian way, by all the opposition groups being largely shut down. The USA just blocked every international attempt to solve this, they just backed the Ukrainian hardliner position up. They were confrontational, after Biden took over in particular.

If you don't justify what the Ukraine did, in the last years, what did others to stop it? Nobody did, there was no interest in a peace Russia could accept, and that was the real problem. You see the hate, the lies, the warmongering in American TV. Compare that with more objective reports from international sources, and you see who was pushing this all along.

The worst is, now Biden is not aggressive, warmongering enough. And suddenly he gets under pressure, all the arguments and allegations, which were denied to save his presidency, being confirmed. And we have to be concerned, because obviously, those maniacs in the USA want escalate the war even further, and keep the Ukraine in the war to wear Russia down. And that's just awful, ugly, totally irresponsible and they let it all happen, just like they did nothing when Russia sought a peaceful solution, because they want the war and they want to escalate it to bring Russia down.
And these kinds of games the Americans play, they every couple of years, is just dangerous and horrible. I don't give that more credit than Putin, which is, in comparison, a humble.
 
I ignore the rest, that's just propaganda from both sides, not important.

No it's the crux the ultra nationalistic and revenge agenda of Putin is no propaganda. He stated this again and again. Only the west was sleeping....
 
No it's the crux the ultra nationalistic and revenge agenda of Putin is no propaganda. He stated this again and again. Only the west was sleeping....

So you think his demand for a neutral Ukraine and the clearly pro-Russian territories in Ukraine is the same as Warshaw Pact size control of the Soviet Union? Not even remotely. He just reacted to very concrete and close threats to his vital Russian interests.

The West was not sleeping, but the USA alienated Russia time and time again, without offering them anything. To blame everything on the Russians now is so cheap.
 

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