The USA is these days more radical Marxist on the societal level (not economically!) than Russia ever was. Your comments make absolutely no sense.
Will Russia Attack Ukraine?
- Thread starter euandro
- Start date
The USA is these days more radical Marxist on the societal level (not economically!) than Russia ever was. Your comments make absolutely no sense.
german students who are muslim or even just speak a language that is from the near east should not visit poland if they do not want to be spat on
https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/ze...smus-schule-berlin-muslime-islam-fluechtlinge
our polish patriot is just another ethnocentrist. that's how it is in poland someone who isn't ethnocentrist isn't a patriot. funny that he is talking the same way about the west as putin is doing it.
https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/ze...smus-schule-berlin-muslime-islam-fluechtlinge
our polish patriot is just another ethnocentrist. that's how it is in poland someone who isn't ethnocentrist isn't a patriot. funny that he is talking the same way about the west as putin is doing it.
The main difference to the Russians is that many Polish nationalists hate Russia, for obvious historical reasons, and would rather prefer West Ukraine being a Polish colony and Russia crippled. They dream of a Polish superpower in Eastern Europe. I don't blame them for having dreams and caring for their nation, but I have two problems:
- when they lie and distort facts
- when they are ready to start World War III and dragging the rest of Europe into this war.
I completely understand the Polish position, but they are short-sighted, because of the longer term political, economical and possible military escalation and outcomes, which will all fall back on the Poles as well.
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
Your agenda is even more short sighted, bow for the intrest of the Putin clan in the Kremlin. His reactionary agenda has to face a red line!
On behalve of the megalomania dreams of an autocrat ordinary Ukrainian people are crushed (so fare the liberation of a brother folk) and the Russian folk is more and more repressed. They face body bags going home (mostly not the sons of the oligarchs) and an economic breakdown on top of it.
The thing we must be worry of is that because Putin's army is so lousy organized and is not effective that bombing to ashes and before in the east and south of Ukraine will be intensified. Everything to prevent a loss in front of the neo czar. An upscaling even unto biological and nuclear weapons is still not out of reach.
And what still is a thing that the Russian oligarchs, at least in the Netherlands, are still not totally stripped down.....
Your agenda is even more short sighted, bow for intrest of the Putin clan in the Kremlin. His reactionary agenda has to face a red line!
On behalve of the megalomania dreams of an autocrat ordinary Ukrainian people are crushed (so fare the liberation of a brother folk) and the Russian folk is more and more repressed. The face body bags going home (mostly not the sons of the oligarchs) and an economic breakdown.
The thing we must be worry of is that because Putin's army is so lousy organized and is not effective that bombing to ashes and before in the east and south of Ukraine will be intensified. Everything to prevent a loss in front of the neo czar. An upscaling even unto biological and nuclear weapons is still not out of reach.
And what still is a thing that the Russian oligarchs, at least in the Netherlands, are still not totally stripped down.....
You completely ignore that this being the result of the Selenski regimes, the Ukrainian oligarchs and the US Biden administration got confrontational with Russia and sought the conflict. You constantly ignore that crucial fact.
Russia just reacted to the provocation, aggression and attacks from the Ukrainian side. They didn't start this out of the blue, because of some sort of "madman Putin's plan". That's US nonsense propaganda and you just repeat it because you want to bring an independent Russia down and showed disrespect for the Russian - and recently the German people and their interests.
Look at what the USA did, they caused this! Russia just reacted to their and the Selenski regimes transgressions and misbehaviour. You can't blame it all on the Russian side, that's a biased lie, objectively.
But even if you don't care for the Russian people and the interests of the Russian state, or the atrocities of the Ukrainians and their corrupted regime, what's your solution to this conflict? Are you now on the "escalate it to World War III" party too? Have you lost your senses? The only way to de-escalate and save lifes is a peace deal, a diplomatic solution.
And that's all Russia wanted, for 8 years, a fair compromise with Ukraine. They were fairly moderate in their approach and demands.
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
You completely ignore that Putin's aim is on his mind since the fall of the wall. That is the real picture you ignore.
And you defend the so called "ethnocentric" interest of Russia. Mind you that is the interest pronounced by the Putin clan not by the ordinary Russian.
The ordinary Russian had to face that the resources went to the military (what do you think these cruise missiles etc cost?). And Russia has a GDP of the Benelux but with a way way bigger population. This is clear economic hara kiri. Everything for the sake of the megalomaniac dream.
I have several times stressed that the like in Russia the Ukrainian oligarchs are not really differentiated. So if Ukraine wants to be in the EU it has to get rid of those corrupt types.....Like Zelenski initial promised.
But that is nothing compared to the aggression that the Ukraine has faced by the the Putin's kleptocrat in the Kremlin. No mercy let alone understanding for the aims of Putin and his fellow kleptocrats.
Its Selenski and his regime which refused any peaceful, diplomatic solution, not Russia. And you keep saying that Putin had sinister plans for Ukraine and beyond, which is unfounded and unproven. Its in your imagination and a propaganda narrative. Russia just turned more aggressive AFTER the West blocked it, in all organisations and on all levels, only AFTER the NATO expansion and AFTER the US sponsored and supported "regime change" in Ukraine - it got only more aggressive recently AFTER Ukraine refused any serious talks and proceeded in getting armed up while attacking Donbas. This was all purely reactionary in context. Its the USA which had much wider and more megalomaniac plans and caused these frictions, not vice versa.
You completely ignore the non-Western side and you completely deny the necessity for peace and diplomatic solutions. That kind of narrative is warmongering propaganda, its useless and dangeorus. Its what caused this mess.
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
I just read an excellent article of Mykola Riabchuk, its clear that most of the time the orientation of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in which nowadays Ukraine was a part, was differentiated from Moskwa. The Russian czars and the SU were always repressive towards the Ukrainians, the Ukrainian culture and language.
So the Zelenski government and it's explicit orientation to the west and not to Russia has a deep and long history! The Ukrainian orientation was for most of time in history not likewise the Kremlin one. So a reason more not to bow for Putin's knut!
You block that because you obviously believe in the Kremlin propaganda. False....
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
Another article of Mykola Riabchuk is explaining it also:
The war is a clash of the real world and Putin's imperial delirium
In Russian historical mythology Ukraine is seen as part of the Russian identity, so its takeover was not only a matter of reestablishing the empire but primarily of recovering the Russian incomplete ‘self'. All those who do not fit into Putin's imaginary ideal are no true Russians but ‘national traitors', and no true Ukrainians but ‘neo-Nazis' and ‘American puppets'. The Russo-Ukrainian war is a clash between the real world of the Ukrainians and the imperial delirium, where Putin wants to fossilize them alongside the Russians, argues political analyst Mykola Riabchuk.
by Mykola Riabchuk
The officially announced goal of the Russian war with Ukraine, launched at dawn of February 24, was to protect ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers from the genocide at the hands of the neo-Nazi government in Kyiv. Officially, it was actually not a ‘war’ but a ‘peacekeeping operation’ at the request of the so-called ‘Donetsk and Luhansk people republics’. All Russian mass media, supervised by the government, strictly follow the crude propagandistic line: Russian troops purportedly carry out a regional rescue mission in Donbas, while in the rest of Ukraine they target only military objects.
Insofar as there is no war, there should be no serious casualties. In a perverse denial, Russian authorities refuse to take back the corpses of killed soldiers, making Ukraine to appeal to the International Red Cross for help. Virtually all Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine claim they had no idea where they were going: officially, they were summoned for some military drills and felt shocked to find themselves deep in Ukraine.
It seems that Putin’s Blitzkrieg has dramatically failed, and that Russia is dragged now into a protracted exhaustive war with grim consequences. This might explain Putin’s hysterical references to his coveted nuclear arsenal, as well as his sudden desire to negotiate with the people whom he labeled ‘neo-Nazis and drug-addicts on the American payroll’. He apparently fell victim of his own delusions and, worse, he has nothing learned from a similar failure of the ‘Russian Spring’ and the ‘Novorossiya’ project in 2014, when he tried to conquer southern Ukraine.
Putin's Blitzkrieg has dramatically failed. Putin fell victim of his own delusions
Then, like now, Putin was driven by the same desire to bring Ukraine back into Russia’s ‘legitimate’ sphere of influence, based on the false belief that Ukraine is not a nation, Ukrainians and Russians are ‘one people’, and that the ‘Great Russian’ (i.e. imperial) identity is unfathomable without the Ukrainian (‘Little Russian’) component. Ukraine’s own postcolonial ambiguity contributed to these delusions but their main source was a heavily mythologized self-image, developed in Russia throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, and adopted, nearly universally, in Western academia, media and pop culture.
The myth of Rus
The centerpiece of that idea - eventually disastrous for Ukraine - was an appropriation of the name Rus (a medieval entity, of which Ukraine was the core) by the Moscow Tsardom in the process of reinventing itself as Rus=Russia. This not only extended its mythical history with a few centuries but also legitimized its claims to the core lands of the former Rus owned at the time by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It also, crucially, delegitimized the very existence of the inhabitants of those lands, Ukrainians and Belarusians, who were downgraded to regional subgroups and dialects of the Greater Russian nation.
Falsified pedigrees are a widespread phenomenon, many nations use ‘invented traditions’ of various kinds, but not all of them have such a destructive, effectively ethnocidal effect on the subaltern nations. The imperial version of ‘Russian’ history was promoted by powerful imperial institutions and gained international recognition as an ‘objective’, presumably ‘scientific’ truth.
In the historical myth Ukrainians and Belarusians were downgraded to subgroups of the Greater Russian Nation
No alternative voices could undermine this knowledge as they were simply not heard, not even allowed to emerge. They were discredited and discarded ahead of any consideration; the discourse of normalcy pushed them away into the sphere of deviation. A renowned Canadian historian Orest Subtelny recollected bitterly how ‘well into the 1980s, Ukrainian history was considered not only a peripheral but even intellectually suspect area of specialization by many North American historians,’ as the assumption prevailed that ‘a historian of Ukraine was, almost by definition, a Ukrainian nationalist’.
Recovering the Russian incomplete self
This imperial idea survived the collapse of the Soviet Union and the emergence of the largely unknown new state – independent Ukraine. ‘A Nowhere Nation’, ‘A Nasty New Ukraine’, and ‘The Unwanted Step-Child of Soviet Perestroika’ were popular titles in reputable Western media that referred to that event. The myth was challenged and gradually eroded by new facts and developments but it was deeply entrenched and institutionalized, so that we still encounter its toxic relics and discursive minefields.
In Putin’s Russia it was retrieved, revitalized and upgraded to the status of state ideology. Putin’s 2021 essay ‘On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians’ manifested both the high ideological significance of that myth and Putin’s personal obsession with Ukraine as its centerpiece.
Ukraine was seen as a part of Russian identity, so its takeover was not (only) a matter of reestablishing the empire but (primarily) of recovering the Russian incomplete ‘self’. All other factors that are often invoked to explain Russian aggression are complementary but not decisive.
What is striking in this obsession is a complete neglect of Ukrainians’ own views and desires. One reason for this might be typical for all dictator's mistrust in opinion surveys and, more generally, in people’s independent agency. People for them are merely subjects, a pliable material, manipulated by the tightly controlled mass media and constrained by selective repressions.
Putin’s imagined ‘true’ Ukrainians
But there might be a deeper reason for such a neglect – a neurotic denial of an uncomfortable reality. Putin, like many authoritarians, believe that he knows the people, he understands their true thoughts and wills much better than they themselves. He is confident that he knows the real Ukrainians as well as the real Russians, although they exist only in his imagination. All those who do not fit his imaginary ideal are not true Russians but ‘national traitors’ and ‘foreign agents’, and they are definitely not true Ukrainians but ‘neo-Nazis’, ‘American puppets’ and, as we have learnt recently, ‘drug addicts’.
Back in 2014, one of Putins’ geopolitical guru's Aleksandr Dugin articulated these Manichean dialectics in a spectacular way. Being so shocked by the Ukrainian's resistance in the Donbas, he wrote on the Russian equivalent of Facebook: ‘I can’t believe these are Ukrainians. Ukrainians are wonderful Slavonic people. And this is a race of bastards that emerged from the sewer manholes... We should clean up Ukraine from the idiots. The genocide of these cretins is due and inevitable…’
If reality does not conform a dictator's imagination, too bad for reality
Today, after the Russian army encountered much stronger and better coordinated resistance than in 2014, and suffered much heavier losses, Putin employs virtually the same explanation: these are not the true Ukrainians of my imagination, of the imperial myth that I’m committed to. These are – Banderites [offspring of WWII fascist Stepan Bandera, ed.], neo-Nazis, bastards who keep the nice, Russia-loving Ukrainian people as hostages, and unleash the brotherly Ukrainian soldiers upon us. If reality does not conform a dictator's imagination, too bad for reality.
A modern political nation
What Putin does not understand, and the imperial myth precludes him from eventual understanding, is that Ukrainians live not in the 19th century of Russia but in the 21st century in Europe; that what unites them is primarily the future and not, like Russians, a nostalgic past; that they formed a political nation where all categories so dear to Mr Putin – like ‘blood and soil’, ‘ethnicity’, ‘faith’, ‘Slavonic brotherhood’ – are not the primary determinants of national loyalty and belonging. In fact, they are as irrelevant for their civic patriotism, as the categories of freedom and dignity for Putin's uncivic etatism.
Most victims of Putin's attack in the south east are the Russian speakers he intends to 'protect'
Independent Ukraine was conceived in 1991 as a civic nation with an Ukrainian ethno-cultural and linguistic core but extensive minority rights enshrined in the constitution, with universal citizenship granted to all the inhabitants of its territory, and no entries indicating ‘ethnicity’ in their passports or any other official documents. In a country where various ethnic groups, primarily Ukrainians and Russian, intermingled for centuries, and created hybrid identities through intermarriages, in- and out-migration, and assimilation, there are no clear boundaries between groups, and even the very notion of ‘ethnic group’ is vague and questionable.
Most people are fluent in Ukrainian and Russian
The standard divide for ‘Ukrainians’ and ‘Russians’, applied in censuses, is undermined by more subtle questions that offer a broader set of possible self-definitions: ‘equally Ukrainian and Russian’, ‘more Ukrainian than Russian’, ‘more Russian than Ukrainian’. Each subgroup appears to have a considerable number of self-declared members; the same with languages.
In a country, where most people are fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian, and often shift from one language to another depending on the situation or the discussed topic, the notion of Russophones and Ukrainophones is also extremely vague and ambiguous. All Ukrainian presidents, up to Volodymyr Zelensky, officially spoke Ukrainian pretty well but in private preferred a habitual Russian (with the only exception of Viktor Yushchenko whose American wife from the Ukrainian diaspora simply didn't speak Russian)?
Which 'Russian speakers' need Putin's 'protection'?
It is highly unclear which people Putin intends to ‘protect’ if most victims of his attack in Ukraine’s south east are exactly the proverbial ‘Russian speakers’ that he allegedly so deeply cares about? And who are the Ukrainian soldiers that fight him now and speak Russian as fluently as Ukrainian, but overwhelmingly curse him in Russian for the sufferings he brought to their motherland?
One may read the Russo-Ukrainian war as a clash of civilizations, of political systems, of values, of the past and the future, but also – as a clash of reality and virtuality, of the real world where Ukrainians live and the imperial delirium where Putin would like to fossilize them, together with the Russians. Indeed, the people who fight his troops all over Ukraine are not the true Ukrainians of his morbid imagination. And they will probably never be – because they are real.
https://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossie...-the-real-world-and-putin-s-imperial-delirium
The war is a clash of the real world and Putin's imperial delirium
In Russian historical mythology Ukraine is seen as part of the Russian identity, so its takeover was not only a matter of reestablishing the empire but primarily of recovering the Russian incomplete ‘self'. All those who do not fit into Putin's imaginary ideal are no true Russians but ‘national traitors', and no true Ukrainians but ‘neo-Nazis' and ‘American puppets'. The Russo-Ukrainian war is a clash between the real world of the Ukrainians and the imperial delirium, where Putin wants to fossilize them alongside the Russians, argues political analyst Mykola Riabchuk.
by Mykola Riabchuk
The officially announced goal of the Russian war with Ukraine, launched at dawn of February 24, was to protect ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers from the genocide at the hands of the neo-Nazi government in Kyiv. Officially, it was actually not a ‘war’ but a ‘peacekeeping operation’ at the request of the so-called ‘Donetsk and Luhansk people republics’. All Russian mass media, supervised by the government, strictly follow the crude propagandistic line: Russian troops purportedly carry out a regional rescue mission in Donbas, while in the rest of Ukraine they target only military objects.
Insofar as there is no war, there should be no serious casualties. In a perverse denial, Russian authorities refuse to take back the corpses of killed soldiers, making Ukraine to appeal to the International Red Cross for help. Virtually all Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine claim they had no idea where they were going: officially, they were summoned for some military drills and felt shocked to find themselves deep in Ukraine.
It seems that Putin’s Blitzkrieg has dramatically failed, and that Russia is dragged now into a protracted exhaustive war with grim consequences. This might explain Putin’s hysterical references to his coveted nuclear arsenal, as well as his sudden desire to negotiate with the people whom he labeled ‘neo-Nazis and drug-addicts on the American payroll’. He apparently fell victim of his own delusions and, worse, he has nothing learned from a similar failure of the ‘Russian Spring’ and the ‘Novorossiya’ project in 2014, when he tried to conquer southern Ukraine.
Putin's Blitzkrieg has dramatically failed. Putin fell victim of his own delusions
Then, like now, Putin was driven by the same desire to bring Ukraine back into Russia’s ‘legitimate’ sphere of influence, based on the false belief that Ukraine is not a nation, Ukrainians and Russians are ‘one people’, and that the ‘Great Russian’ (i.e. imperial) identity is unfathomable without the Ukrainian (‘Little Russian’) component. Ukraine’s own postcolonial ambiguity contributed to these delusions but their main source was a heavily mythologized self-image, developed in Russia throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, and adopted, nearly universally, in Western academia, media and pop culture.
The myth of Rus
The centerpiece of that idea - eventually disastrous for Ukraine - was an appropriation of the name Rus (a medieval entity, of which Ukraine was the core) by the Moscow Tsardom in the process of reinventing itself as Rus=Russia. This not only extended its mythical history with a few centuries but also legitimized its claims to the core lands of the former Rus owned at the time by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. It also, crucially, delegitimized the very existence of the inhabitants of those lands, Ukrainians and Belarusians, who were downgraded to regional subgroups and dialects of the Greater Russian nation.
Falsified pedigrees are a widespread phenomenon, many nations use ‘invented traditions’ of various kinds, but not all of them have such a destructive, effectively ethnocidal effect on the subaltern nations. The imperial version of ‘Russian’ history was promoted by powerful imperial institutions and gained international recognition as an ‘objective’, presumably ‘scientific’ truth.
In the historical myth Ukrainians and Belarusians were downgraded to subgroups of the Greater Russian Nation
No alternative voices could undermine this knowledge as they were simply not heard, not even allowed to emerge. They were discredited and discarded ahead of any consideration; the discourse of normalcy pushed them away into the sphere of deviation. A renowned Canadian historian Orest Subtelny recollected bitterly how ‘well into the 1980s, Ukrainian history was considered not only a peripheral but even intellectually suspect area of specialization by many North American historians,’ as the assumption prevailed that ‘a historian of Ukraine was, almost by definition, a Ukrainian nationalist’.
Recovering the Russian incomplete self
This imperial idea survived the collapse of the Soviet Union and the emergence of the largely unknown new state – independent Ukraine. ‘A Nowhere Nation’, ‘A Nasty New Ukraine’, and ‘The Unwanted Step-Child of Soviet Perestroika’ were popular titles in reputable Western media that referred to that event. The myth was challenged and gradually eroded by new facts and developments but it was deeply entrenched and institutionalized, so that we still encounter its toxic relics and discursive minefields.
In Putin’s Russia it was retrieved, revitalized and upgraded to the status of state ideology. Putin’s 2021 essay ‘On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians’ manifested both the high ideological significance of that myth and Putin’s personal obsession with Ukraine as its centerpiece.
Ukraine was seen as a part of Russian identity, so its takeover was not (only) a matter of reestablishing the empire but (primarily) of recovering the Russian incomplete ‘self’. All other factors that are often invoked to explain Russian aggression are complementary but not decisive.
What is striking in this obsession is a complete neglect of Ukrainians’ own views and desires. One reason for this might be typical for all dictator's mistrust in opinion surveys and, more generally, in people’s independent agency. People for them are merely subjects, a pliable material, manipulated by the tightly controlled mass media and constrained by selective repressions.
Putin’s imagined ‘true’ Ukrainians
But there might be a deeper reason for such a neglect – a neurotic denial of an uncomfortable reality. Putin, like many authoritarians, believe that he knows the people, he understands their true thoughts and wills much better than they themselves. He is confident that he knows the real Ukrainians as well as the real Russians, although they exist only in his imagination. All those who do not fit his imaginary ideal are not true Russians but ‘national traitors’ and ‘foreign agents’, and they are definitely not true Ukrainians but ‘neo-Nazis’, ‘American puppets’ and, as we have learnt recently, ‘drug addicts’.
Back in 2014, one of Putins’ geopolitical guru's Aleksandr Dugin articulated these Manichean dialectics in a spectacular way. Being so shocked by the Ukrainian's resistance in the Donbas, he wrote on the Russian equivalent of Facebook: ‘I can’t believe these are Ukrainians. Ukrainians are wonderful Slavonic people. And this is a race of bastards that emerged from the sewer manholes... We should clean up Ukraine from the idiots. The genocide of these cretins is due and inevitable…’
If reality does not conform a dictator's imagination, too bad for reality
Today, after the Russian army encountered much stronger and better coordinated resistance than in 2014, and suffered much heavier losses, Putin employs virtually the same explanation: these are not the true Ukrainians of my imagination, of the imperial myth that I’m committed to. These are – Banderites [offspring of WWII fascist Stepan Bandera, ed.], neo-Nazis, bastards who keep the nice, Russia-loving Ukrainian people as hostages, and unleash the brotherly Ukrainian soldiers upon us. If reality does not conform a dictator's imagination, too bad for reality.
A modern political nation
What Putin does not understand, and the imperial myth precludes him from eventual understanding, is that Ukrainians live not in the 19th century of Russia but in the 21st century in Europe; that what unites them is primarily the future and not, like Russians, a nostalgic past; that they formed a political nation where all categories so dear to Mr Putin – like ‘blood and soil’, ‘ethnicity’, ‘faith’, ‘Slavonic brotherhood’ – are not the primary determinants of national loyalty and belonging. In fact, they are as irrelevant for their civic patriotism, as the categories of freedom and dignity for Putin's uncivic etatism.
Most victims of Putin's attack in the south east are the Russian speakers he intends to 'protect'
Independent Ukraine was conceived in 1991 as a civic nation with an Ukrainian ethno-cultural and linguistic core but extensive minority rights enshrined in the constitution, with universal citizenship granted to all the inhabitants of its territory, and no entries indicating ‘ethnicity’ in their passports or any other official documents. In a country where various ethnic groups, primarily Ukrainians and Russian, intermingled for centuries, and created hybrid identities through intermarriages, in- and out-migration, and assimilation, there are no clear boundaries between groups, and even the very notion of ‘ethnic group’ is vague and questionable.
Most people are fluent in Ukrainian and Russian
The standard divide for ‘Ukrainians’ and ‘Russians’, applied in censuses, is undermined by more subtle questions that offer a broader set of possible self-definitions: ‘equally Ukrainian and Russian’, ‘more Ukrainian than Russian’, ‘more Russian than Ukrainian’. Each subgroup appears to have a considerable number of self-declared members; the same with languages.
In a country, where most people are fluent in both Ukrainian and Russian, and often shift from one language to another depending on the situation or the discussed topic, the notion of Russophones and Ukrainophones is also extremely vague and ambiguous. All Ukrainian presidents, up to Volodymyr Zelensky, officially spoke Ukrainian pretty well but in private preferred a habitual Russian (with the only exception of Viktor Yushchenko whose American wife from the Ukrainian diaspora simply didn't speak Russian)?
Which 'Russian speakers' need Putin's 'protection'?
It is highly unclear which people Putin intends to ‘protect’ if most victims of his attack in Ukraine’s south east are exactly the proverbial ‘Russian speakers’ that he allegedly so deeply cares about? And who are the Ukrainian soldiers that fight him now and speak Russian as fluently as Ukrainian, but overwhelmingly curse him in Russian for the sufferings he brought to their motherland?
One may read the Russo-Ukrainian war as a clash of civilizations, of political systems, of values, of the past and the future, but also – as a clash of reality and virtuality, of the real world where Ukrainians live and the imperial delirium where Putin would like to fossilize them, together with the Russians. Indeed, the people who fight his troops all over Ukraine are not the true Ukrainians of his morbid imagination. And they will probably never be – because they are real.
https://www.raamoprusland.nl/dossie...-the-real-world-and-putin-s-imperial-delirium
Tomenable
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,427
- Reaction score
- 1,332
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Poland
- Ethnic group
- Polish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-L617
- mtDNA haplogroup
- W6a
You must read even more of anti-Polish German propaganda. There are Kurds like you in Poland and they don't bother anyone:
http://www.obywatelska.org.pl/?kurdowie-w-polsce,115
why should this be propaganda and what makes you think that i'm kurdish? sadly i can't understand polish so i don't know what they are talking about in those videos. the presence of a few hundred kurds in poland doesn't mean a lot.
if you think that the simple presence of a certain ethnic group is proof enough then why do you keep saying how racist and antisemitic the average german still is? with that argumenation it would be at least 10 times worse in poland.
what would the degenerate west or specifically the degenerate germans have to do to stop beeing degenerate? maybe you can sit together with Putin and the AfD and give them advices. i think you share quite a lot.
I said numerous times I agree with up to the point of the Eastern Ukrainian Russians and Crimea. If the Western-Central Ukrainians want to start a new life as US vassal, and completely break off from Russia, its their decision, but the Eastern Ukrainian Russians should be asked too and Crimea being left behind. You will hear in the Ukraine that what you say is true, for the West of the country, for the core region of Ukrainians proper, those parts which were part of Poland-Lithuania for a longer period of time and which being even part of Austro-Hungary. There are even Ukrainian jokes about the more Western oriented and arrogant people from Galicia and the West in general. These are different mentalities and people. Even genetically the different within Ukraine is bigger than between Eastern Ukrainian Russians and Russians proper, obviously, but it extends to culture, mentality, history, language, religion etc.
The problem is that Ukraine is not that homogeneous and as far as I can see, the Kremlin only wants to keep the Russian speaking Eastern and Southern parts anyway.
http://www.familienseite-fuhrmann.de/ceurope3.gif
The Transcarpathian region with the Rusyn I mentioned before already, they have a separatist movement of their own and a sizeable Hungarian minority. The area around Lwiw is the core area for the Ukrainian Western nationalism, just like the Donbas is the core zone for the pro-Russian, Russian people in Ukraine. Theser are different spheres, not just of interest, but of practically everything in this context. No reason for those to make them stick together by force. If the Western Ukrainians want to leave, they should also let those leave their state which have a different orientation, simple as that.
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
This quote in the article in this respect is crucial:
You are on the Kremlin line in this respect.
is imo Putin kind of propaganda, fare besides reality imo.
In the article:
Then.
= imo fascist Blut und Boden theory.
Here meister Proper this is the reality not that mythical talk of you and Putin,
article:
You can't countervail Riabchuk article and you stay consequent in the Putin groove...
The statistics are clear on the matter, not just the more abstract ethnic identity and Russian language of the regional inhabitants, but also the tendencies with confession and voting.
E.g. in the 2014 elections, more than 90 percent of Donbas people vote for the pro-Russian candidate. The West Ukrainian nationalism has no stand there, not at all. Similarily, a lot of orthodox Ukrainians from the West did deliberately distance themselves from Russian orthodoxy, following their own more Nationalist and Liberal patriarchate. Again, this had and has practically no foothold in the Russian core zone, not at all.
Of course, since 2014-15, the massive indoctrination, the fact that all opposing views being banned in Ukraine, newspapers and TV stations closed, pro-Russian activists attacked, persecuted and arrested, this had an effect on the people, on how they look at "Russians", because they being cut off and brainwashed. But point is, still, despite this billions of dollars invested and this massive indoctrination and censorship in Ukraine, the Donbas is absolutely and clearly pro-Russian and a large part of the East and South rather split, still.
The clearly Western Ukrainian nationalist stance is still concentrated in the Western parts of the country, around Lwiw in particular:
Also the most militia members and volunteers come from those areas. Its a the West Ukrainians fighting with the Russians over the control of the Russian Ukrainians in the East. And in Donbas, in all elections and polls, its absolutely clear they want to be Russian and no traitors working against Russia, in a state weaponised by the USA.
The West Ukrainians are ok with this, because they want to be as independent from Russia as possible, don't care about a new iron curtain etc. The Eastern Russian people, almost all of them, have relatives in Russia, close ties, ideological, social, economic and religious. Its not even comparable with the West Ukrainians, especially around Lwiw, which have practically no deeper ties with Russia other than being East Slavs.
These are just two poles inside of the Ukraine which don't belong to each other. If they being put together, there will be always one side suppressing the other. The best solution is therefore in any case a split of the Ukraine.
Northener
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,079
- Reaction score
- 524
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Groningen
- Ethnic group
- NW Euro
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- E1b1b/ E-V22
The statistics are clear on the matter, not just the more abstract ethnic identity and Russian language of the regional inhabitants, but also the tendencies with confession and voting.
E.g. in the 2014 elections, more than 90 percent of Donbas people vote for the pro-Russian candidate. The West Ukrainian nationalism has no stand there, not at all. Similarily, a lot of orthodox Ukrainians from the West did deliberately distance themselves from Russian orthodoxy, following their own more Nationalist and Liberal patriarchate. Again, this had and has practically no foothold in the Russian core zone, not at all.
Of course, since 2014-15, the massive indoctrination, the fact that all opposing views being banned in Ukraine, newspapers and TV stations closed, pro-Russian activists attacked, persecuted and arrested, this had an effect on the people, on how they look at "Russians", because they being cut off and brainwashed. But point is, still, despite this billions of dollars invested and this massive indoctrination and censorship in Ukraine, the Donbas is absolutely and clearly pro-Russian and a large part of the East and South rather split, still.
The clearly Western Ukrainian nationalist stance is still concentrated in the Western parts of the country, around Lwiw in particular:
Also the most militia members and volunteers come from those areas. Its a the West Ukrainians fighting with the Russians over the control of the Russian Ukrainians in the East. And in Donbas, in all elections and polls, its absolutely clear they want to be Russian and no traitors working against Russia, in a state weaponised by the USA.
The West Ukrainians are ok with this, because they want to be as independent from Russia as possible, don't care about a new iron curtain etc. The Eastern Russian people, almost all of them, have relatives in Russia, close ties, ideological, social, economic and religious. Its not even comparable with the West Ukrainians, especially around Lwiw, which have practically no deeper ties with Russia other than being East Slavs.
These are just two poles inside of the Ukraine which don't belong to each other. If they being put together, there will be always one side suppressing the other. The best solution is therefore in any case a split of the Ukraine.
Sorry this is not about statistics, but about different views.
EV13SON
Banned
- Messages
- 195
- Reaction score
- 55
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Eurasian American Mutt
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- EV13>Y41980>FTA49507
- mtDNA haplogroup
- A2
I'm just going to drop this here, more discussions on the topic...I'm not sure I agree with everything but different things to think about...geopolitics is a dirty dirty game...
bigsnake49
Regular Member
- Messages
- 1,779
- Reaction score
- 379
- Points
- 83
- Ethnic group
- Thracian
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R-PF7558 (LDNA)
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U5a1b
Hahaha, I don't want to give Will Smith more notoriety than he got but I thought this was funny.
Yes, the Western Ukrainian nationalist core has a completely different view than the Donbas Russians, they don't fit together. Exactly.
Excellent analysis, fairly objective and reasonable. No simple blaming-shaming and nonsense-propaganda, just facts.
This thread has been viewed 290443 times.