Y-chromosome analysis recapitulates key events of Mediterranean populations

Duarte said:
The foreign R1b elite almost annihilated the male lineages of the Mesolithic and Neolithic among the Basques. Initially they entered stealthily and later, in the Iron Age, they became more intense. What is striking is that the Basques are ethnically those who most closely resemble the natives of the Iberian Peninsula of the Stone Age. The foreigners must have been men with many wives and the local men must have been harshly subjugated, including in terms of reproductive issues. Life in those times was tough.
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I would have expected some Basque samples in this study, considering that it was funded by the Basque government. 🤷‍♂️
 
Ralphie Boy said:
From the paper:

In Italy, subhaplogroup E1b1b-V13 appears with higher frequency than in Spain. This subhaplogroup is distinctive in the Balkan Peninsula, particularly in Greece, and serves as a marker for assessing the Hellenic influence in the Mediterranean [14,15]. Several evidences suggest an initial migration of E1b1b-V13 from Anatolia to the Balkans, where it expanded demographically and then spread to Southern Italy [30,47,48]. However, the occupation by the Hellenes of Magna Graecia from the 8th century BC [14,15,30] and the fluid contact between Southern Italy and the Greek areas even during the time this region was under the dominion of the Crown of Aragon (12th to 18th centuries) [49,50], may have helped to maintain and/or reinforce the presence of this subhaplogroup in Italy. In fact, before the Roman Empire, one in every 10–13 inhabitants in Southern Italy was Greek [35]. Hence, it makes sense that E1b1b-V13 is mainly found in Catanzaro, Cosenza and Reggio di Calabria populations.
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We shall see in this conclusion soon, whether V13 shows up among Classical Greeks. At this stage it's pretty obvious it is a Thracian-related Y-DNA, but there was a undisputed archaeological influence after LBA collapse from Thracian-related cultures toward Greece. How much impact they had, and whether V13 played a role is unknown.
 
HereToLearn said:
I would have expected some Basque samples in this study, considering that it was funded by the Basque government. 🤷‍♂️
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The Basque historians defend strongly the fact that after the early admixture between farmers and hunters, the ancestors of the Basques became isolated from the other groups around them due to a combination of geography and culture, meaning that the Basque area was not much affected by the subsequent migrations that shaped genetic patterns in other parts of Europe (including the migration of the shepherds of the steppes from the eastern periphery of the European continent during the Bronze Age). Seems a paradox that a people ethnically so similar to the first farmers of Europe also have a rich patrilineal lineage from the steppes. This stirs our imagination about how were the first interactions between the ancestors of the Basques and the invaders from the steppe.
 
Duarte said:
The Basque historians defend strongly the fact that after the early admixture between farmers and hunters, the ancestors of the Basques became isolated from the other groups around them due to a combination of geography and culture, meaning that the Basque area was not much affected by the subsequent migrations that shaped genetic patterns in other parts of Europe (including the migration of the shepherds of the steppes from the eastern periphery of the European continent during the Bronze Age).
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My wife is Spanish, so I know better not to go there re the Basques and what almost any aspect of their political, scientifical and cultural life is aimed at demonstrating.
 
Ralphie Boy said:
From the paper:

In Italy, subhaplogroup E1b1b-V13 appears with higher frequency than in Spain. This subhaplogroup is distinctive in the Balkan Peninsula, particularly in Greece, and serves as a marker for assessing the Hellenic influence in the Mediterranean [14,15]. Several evidences suggest an initial migration of E1b1b-V13 from Anatolia to the Balkans, where it expanded demographically and then spread to Southern Italy [30,47,48]. However, the occupation by the Hellenes of Magna Graecia from the 8th century BC [14,15,30] and the fluid contact between Southern Italy and the Greek areas even during the time this region was under the dominion of the Crown of Aragon (12th to 18th centuries) [49,50], may have helped to maintain and/or reinforce the presence of this subhaplogroup in Italy. In fact, before the Roman Empire, one in every 10–13 inhabitants in Southern Italy was Greek [35]. Hence, it makes sense that E1b1b-V13 is mainly found in Catanzaro, Cosenza and Reggio di Calabria populations.
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E-v13 does not serve as a marker of Hellenic influence at all and its just a post medieval presence in Greece, after the Albanian population flood in Greece. Very serious study :D
 
Finding one single E-V13 out of almost approaching 30 samples is not the win you think it is. If it was a mainstream line in Southern Greece it would've been shown by now.

As for Northerners I don't have a strong opinion about that but Epirus was largely emptied by Romans and in general the Northerners were numerically inferior to the more technologically advanced South.
 
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epirus1000 said:
E-v13 does not serve as a marker of Hellenic influence at all and its just a post medieval presence in Greece, after the Albanian population flood in Greece. Very serious study :D
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It's not entirely or even mostly Albanian. I have certain thoughts but I wont vocalize myself until more studies come by.
 
Hawk said:
We shall see in this conclusion soon, whether V13 shows up among Classical Greeks. At this stage it's pretty obvious it is a Thracian-related Y-DNA, but there was a undisputed archaeological influence after LBA collapse from Thracian-related cultures toward Greece. How much impact they had, and whether V13 played a role is unknown.
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The authors’ view on E-V13 is not my own. I agree that thus far, this is a Balkan marker, not found in Mycenaean Greece that was heavy in J2a and G. It’s missing in post-Mycenaean ancient Greek samples in studies: Southern Arc (Anatolian Greek locations) and Himera, where it was found as a non-Greek mercenary. But perhaps some E-V13 in modern Cretans, Cypriots, Dodecanese and West Anatolians has older roots in Greece, and was not brought by medieval migrations that appear responsible for current mainland distribution.
 
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Ralphie Boy said:
The authors’ view on E-V13 is not my own. I agree that thus far, this is a Balkan marker, not found in Mycenaean Greece that was heavy in J2a and G. It’s missing in post-Mycenaean ancient Greek samples in studies: Southern Arc (Anatolian Greek locations) and Himera, where it was found as a non-Greek mercenary. But perhaps some E-V13 in modern Cretans, Cypriots, Dodecanese and West Anatolians has older roots in Greece, and was not brought by medieval migrations that appears responsible for current mainland distribution.
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Absolutely, there is 1 E-L618 in Ancient Macedonian site of Idomenae, the sample was of poor quality so expect to be V13 positive. But as i said, we shall see. Greece has strong V13 presence, it could be V13 was present there but reinforced with the Byzantine population of Daco-Thracian origin. The Byzantine Empire prior to Justinian plague was literally run by Thracians, well the dude who named Constantinople Constantine the Great was a Moesian-Thracian man.

IDK at this point. Let the studies speak for themselves.
 
the divide in italy is very much an east-west italian one in ancient times
etruscans, romans, ligurians abd others are all indigenous west side italians
adriatic italians have little indigenous tribes

talking about early bronze age

the north-south divide seems to only start from republican roman times
 
We still didn't get the full picture of origin of Etruscans btw, it was surprising to see such a high amount of R1b among one of the last non IE people of Europe. But the G2a in them could be a hint, i suppose somewhere between North Italy and Alps linking them with Rhaetians is viable.

There was always some elements of Pannonian Urnfield material culture influences in the Villanovan predecessor culture of Etruscans. But the whole Urnfield complex always stretched from Alps to Carpathian Basin.

Also, from the south, we shall see how the native Sicani/Siculs and Elymi look like.
 
the divide in italy is very much an east-west italian one in ancient times
etruscans, romans, ligurians abd others are all indigenous west side italians
adriatic italians have little indigenous tribes

talking about early bronze age

the north-south divide seems to only start from republican roman times
Hawk said:
We still didn't get the full picture of origin of Etruscans btw, it was surprising to see such a high amount of R1b among one of the last non IE people of Europe. But the G2a in them could be a hint, i suppose somewhere between North Italy and Alps linking them with Rhaetians is viable.

There was always some elements of Pannonian Urnfield material culture influences in the Villanovan predecessor culture of Etruscans. But the whole Urnfield complex always stretched from Alps to Carpathian Basin.

Also, from the south, we shall see how the native Sicani/Siculs and Elymi look like.
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the only etruscan port on the adriatic side was Spina and that was to combat the liburnian-venetic trade...which was grain and glass beads from the venetic for liburnian baltic amber and wine

the etruscan spina trade city did not last long

and are we still doubting that etruscans are not indigenous italian race ?
 
sure G2a is in the northern adriatic group and so is E-V13.....look like an eastern alpine group plus pannonian
also a lit of J-L283 with dalmatians, japodes, histrians and some pannonians.......strange none of these J-l283 have been found in liburnians and venetics, only R-L2 seems one haplogroup they share
 
Duarte said:
The foreign R1b elite almost annihilated the male lineages of the Mesolithic and Neolithic among the Basques. Initially they entered stealthily and later, in the Iron Age, they became more intense. What is striking is that the Basques are ethnically those who most closely resemble the natives of the Iberian Peninsula of the Stone Age. The foreigners must have been men with many wives and the local men must have been harshly subjugated, including in terms of reproductive issues. Life in those times was tough.
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Some researchers question the prevailing idea of a violent invasion by warrior groups with steppe ancestry during the transition from the Copper Age to the Bronze Age in the Iberian Peninsula.
Fox example in study below, the researchers used radiocarbon dating (C14) of human bones to create a timeline of population changes in Southeast Iberia. They applied statistical methods to these dates to identify patterns and trends in funerary rituals and population density. They focused on one of the aspects of this transition: the shift from communal burials in the Copper Age to the single and double tombs of the Bronze Age society.
They observed a peak in the number of buried dead during 2550-2400 BCE, followed by a sudden drop in 2300-2250 BCE. This led them to argue that there was a population decline in the Late Chalcolithic, and that the evidence shows a low population density in that period. They propose that there was a gradual integration of the newcomers within a context of already demographically weakened communities, and that the demographics changes were achieved not through widespread violence between genetically distinct populations, but through smaller waves of migrations that integrated over generations, excluding the so-called 'male bias', but not without some sporadic episodes of violence.
But it is a theory that does not completely convince me, it does not explain the replacement of almost 100% of the Y chromosome and the subsistence of the neolithic/chalcolithic mtDna haplogroups.​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X24003201?via=ihub
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Hawk said:
We shall see in this conclusion soon, whether V13 shows up among Classical Greeks. At this stage it's pretty obvious it is a Thracian-related Y-DNA, but there was a undisputed archaeological influence after LBA collapse from Thracian-related cultures toward Greece. How much impact they had, and whether V13 played a role is unknown.
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Yeah, mention of EV13 without any EV13 samples of Ancient Greeks threw me for a loop. Was EV13 native to Greece (possibly among the non-elite or the Pelasgians), did it come after the LBA population collapse, medieval/post medieval incursion by Albanians/Vlachs? Lots of questions.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Yeah, mention of EV13 without any EV13 samples of Ancient Greeks threw me for a loop. Was EV13 native to Greece (possibly among the non-elite or the Pelasgians), did it come after the LBA population collapse, medieval/post medieval incursion by Albanians/Vlachs? Lots of questions.
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Yeah, i really have no idea, i don't even know what to say about Pelasgians, the problem with Pelasgians is that they are just up in the air population, we have no material culture from them, no distinct element, nothing. We cannot compare them, maybe E-V13 was Pelasgian, and the rest of E-V13 were Thracianized and after LBA they conquered the whole of Thrace, possibly, but i rather think E-V13 came with the Eastern Urnfield invaders who contributed into the demise of Mycenaean Palace and Hittite Empire from around Danube/Carpathian-Basin during LBA. That's safer to say.

The story of E-V13 is interwingled:

1. High altitude cattle herders
2. Strong metal-working traditions: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-021-09155-7

It's quite easy to see how Thracians even surpassed Ancient Greeks on metal-working, far more flamboyant gold artefacts than Greeks, looks like even makhaira swords were copied from Thracians.

Though of course Ancient Greece has a legitimate undisputed contribution on European civilization.
 
Hawk said:
Yeah, i really have no idea, i don't even know what to say about Pelasgians, the problem with Pelasgians is that they are just up in the air population, we have no material culture from them, no distinct element, nothing. We cannot compare them, maybe E-V13 was Pelasgian, and the rest of E-V13 were Thracianized and after LBA they conquered the whole of Thrace, possibly, but i rather think E-V13 came with the Eastern Urnfield invaders who contributed into the demise of Mycenaean Palace and Hittite Empire from around Danube/Carpathian-Basin during LBA. That's safer to say.

The story of E-V13 is interwingled:

1. High altitude cattle herders
2. Strong metal-working traditions: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10963-021-09155-7

It's quite easy to see how Thracians even surpassed Ancient Greeks on metal-working, far more flamboyant gold artefacts than Greeks, looks like even makhaira swords were copied from Thracians.

Though of course Ancient Greece has a legitimate undisputed contribution on European civilization.
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Thracian metalworking/gold artisanship is very advanced for sure.

We don't have any any material culture remnants of the Pelasgians or of the Greek migration per se. Until we do the ancient authors theory about the Greeks invading is just that, a theory.
 
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