Y-chromosome analysis recapitulates key events of Mediterranean populations

[Ralphie Boy]

For what it’s worth, in another study there was an E-V13 found in ancient Olbia region of the Black Sea, thought by the authors to have been a Greek. He was “Southern European” like. This person seems to have had a high amount of Anatolia Neolithic compared with another ancient Greek sample of that region.

North Pontic Crossroads: Mobility in Ukraine from the Bronze Age to the early modern period

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.24.595769v1.full.pdf

 

[D.L.M]

Get 15 male ancient samples from Peloponnese during the Classical era and this discussion will end for Southern Greece. We've seen an E-V13 mercenary with an Illyrian profile in Himera and an E-V13 in MBLA Illyria only for it to come absent in most Illyrians, everything can happen in those mixed areas not to mention some Thracians are practically identical with old Greeks.

There's still a possibility that it existed in certain numbers but don't trick yourself without evidence. Also beware of Thracian slaves and migrants which were common in Athens according to history.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

I would not expect classical Greek Peloponnese to have much if any haplogroup E. Maybe it’s too far south, given where ancient samples were found in the Balkans. But up north, like Olbia or the north Aegean, perhaps it’s more reasonable to expect in ancient times. But if it is found deep in ancient Greece, it does not negate the medieval input in modern Greeks from Albanian settlers and others.

 

[bigsnake49]

I would not expect classical Greek Peloponnese to have much if any haplogroup E. Maybe it’s too far south, given where ancient samples were found in the Balkans. But up north, like Olbia or the north Aegean, perhaps it’s more reasonable to expect in ancient times. But if it is found deep in ancient Greece, it does not negate the medieval input in modern Greeks from Albanian settlers and others.

Do we have any studies that compare the medieval E-V13 sub-clades with the current E-V13 sub-clades of the Peloponnese and mainland?

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Do we have any studies that compare the medieval E-V13 sub-clades with the current E-V13 sub-clades of the Peloponnese and mainland?

Haven’t seen any. Would love to see a study of medieval Peloponnese. What was the DNA like during Frankish rule? What were differences between Greeks and Albanian newcomers?

 

[D.L.M]

Haven’t seen any. Would love to see a study of medieval Peloponnese. What was the DNA like during Frankish rule? What were differences between Greeks and Albanian newcomers?
View attachment 16751

Allegedly some 8,000 Albanian families left Peloponnese for Italy according to Wiki, but the REAL Italian census (which is far the best census that there was, akin to modern ones) shows very few thousands Albanians many of them from Albania and Epirus. And the areas of Peloponnese that received Albanians the most back then were Coroni, Metoni and Argos which were not under Ottoman rule but Venetian.


We've seen this crap with the Slavs, too. In fact Corinth was hit by an earthquake, killed a great proportion of pristine Byzantine Greeks far more than Slavs that got deported.

Either way no doubt some villages were hellenized before. Greeks in Lichada were slaughtered by Ottomans, later Ottoman defter shows Christian Albanian names, and a visitor attested an Albanian woman in 1801, it switched language before 1821, I don't think it was as dominant as this map shows but it did happen. (many parts of Laconia are missing which were supposedly much more heavily Greek - you never know though)

And some Albanians from Peloponnese moved to Islands too.

 

[Hawk]

Either way you need a source population of more than 80%+ to be classified as source population for E-V13 in Peloponessus where the V13 percentage looks slightly even higher than Tosks and Vlachs.

IMO, there was already an influx during LBA-EIA of V13 in Greece where we see an increase of the cremation burials in urns. We just don't know the scale of impact and whether these people stayed and mixed with Mycanean populations or retreated. We also know that at the very dawn of Iron Age early Greek religion was actually heavily influenced by Orphism.

The above assumption can be either confirmed or rejected with a more classical Greek samples, especially from Macedonia.

 

[D.L.M]

Either way you need a source population of more than 80%+ to be classified as source population for E-V13 in Peloponessus where the V13 percentage looks slightly even higher than Tosks and Vlachs.

IMO, there was already an influx during LBA-EIA of V13 in Greece where we see an increase of the cremation burials in urns. We just don't know the scale of impact and whether these people stayed and mixed with Mycanean populations or retreated. We also know that at the very dawn of Iron Age early Greek religion was actually heavily influenced by Orphism.

The above assumption can be either confirmed or rejected with a more classical Greek samples, especially from Macedonia.

According to a Greek, E-V13 peaks in Outer Mani. However I have no idea how many samples or if it is selection bias.

 

[Hawk]

According to a Greek, E-V13 peaks in Outer Mani. However I have no idea how many samples or if it is selection bias.

The distinction between Outer Mani and Inner Mani is regional, Outer Mani region is richer and more fertile land AFAIK. But, anyway i guess it's probably due to trade more over there since it's notoriously known as being stony place, i doubt much of agriculture happens, idk, my knowledge is quite limited on the region overall, just an observation generally.

 

[Hawk]

I have to correct myself about Orphism, it's exact origin is quite blurry and it looks that it started gaining ground by the dawn of classical Greece and not Early Iron Age. And its origin is either Greece of Thrace, because it has mixed Thraco-Greek mythology. For instance the prior name of Dionysis Zagreus sounds quite Thracian as a word.

 

[D.L.M]

I wonder if pagans of Deep Mani identified as Romans:

Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolatres and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation.

They were called Hellenes on account of being Pagans however this was often used as a derogatory term. Pagans identified as Romans before the Christian era, so it is likely Maniotes identified as Romans too.

 

[D.L.M]

About 8,000 Arvanites leaving Peloponnese mostly with their families false that is written in Wikipedia is completely false.

"La loro consistenza numerica andava da circa 7.500 unità originarie a 8.234 nel 1570 ed a 8.958 nel 1589. E questo quando la popolazione complessiva dell'isola non arrivava in quegli anni alle 800.000 unità."

"Regno di Napoli - 5.775 people in 1540."

A total of ~13,000 in mid 16th century which could amount to 12,000 settlers. Given that 3 out of 4 waves were from Albania (with Kastrioti) and nearly all of the settlements were established by those refugees from Albania (*) I'd say it is much more likely that the vast majority of them came from Albania and not Peloponnese. Proportionally 12,000/4=3,000. The number of Arvanites that left Corone was 2,000. And for other Venetians strongholds like Nafplion or Argos they were either included in 2,000 (**) (migrated to Coroni first before leaving Morea) or did not migrate to Italy at all. If neither of those is true then 3,000 seems a good bet to me.


(*) - Piana Degli Albanesi, the most famous Arbereshe settlement was founded by Himariotes later joined by Corone and Medoni Arvanites. Those Arvanites also created some villages of their own or joined them if I recall well (but not sure).

(**) In 1532 the Allied Fleet of Charles V, the Pope and the Knights of Malta under the command of the Genoese Admiral Andrea Doria, seized the city only to abandon it in 1534, taking with them 2,000 inhabitants, mainly belonging to the Arbereshe (Albanian) community. They settled in southern Italy where already other Albanian refugees lived. They never forgot Corone and Morea as their songs testify.