Y-DNA and mtDNA frequencies in Proto-Indo-European cultures

[MOESAN]

Thanks, but it is not my map.

It is from the new study on Iberian R1b. It was made by the following people:



Typically Polish surnames! You were right! At least Orla Hard-i-man must be Polish.

Grmblgargle! Don't moke people like that! Maybe they are not Polish people but they were drunk as Polish people when they made the survey!!! (french racism about Poles, you can put Finns or Bretons in place of it LOL) That said the place of the "bursting" of S116 seems to me a bit to far Southwest.

 

[Tomenable]

If some steppe R1b people did not speak Indo-European languages, then it would make sense of it all neatly, but that would be turning everything on its head. Where would they have come from that they didn't speak a form of Indo-European? If they stayed on the steppe until 3,000 BC or so how could they have avoided speaking Indo-European? Maybe they were in Cucuteni or somewhere else in the Balkans where they adopted the languages of the Neolithic farmers? Or maybe they moved to certain areas in the Balkans before Indo-European was really established and then got pushed out? This is just wild, idle speculation though, unsupported by any evidence. Then there's the question of how did they get to eastern Spain, although we could speculate it was by sea. Might they have been connected with Or were those people J2? If the ancestors of the Iberians were R1b they would presumably carried upstream clades though, yes?

I was also thinking about the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. We still don't have Y-DNA samples from this culture, and they lived in the direct and close vicinity of the steppe. Also the new paper by Allentoft claims that there could be a migration from Trypillian culture to the steppe (citation below):

"During the 4th millennium BC, large mega settlements of up to 400 hectares with populations in the ten thousands, known as the Tripolje Culture 2, 9, emerged in the western forest-steppe, bordering the steppe. By the middle of the 4th millennium BC, it seems that such large populations could no longer be sustained and the mega-sites gradually collapsed and were left. The Tripolje populations expanded into the steppe 10 where they encountered Maikop groups and adopted individual burials under barrows and metallurgy. Horse domestication and the development of wheeled vehicles, in the style of later prairie wagons, took place to support a mobile pastoral lifestyle."

So my idea is that the Cucuteni-Trypillian had R1b and spoke a Non-IE, Neolithic language. Later one part of those Trypillians migrated to the steppe, where they became Indo-Europeanized adopting PIE language. Another part of them, however, migrated in the opposite direction, to Iberia, where they continued to speak Non-IE. This would make sense and that culture definitely had the demographic capacity to colonize Western Europe (they had towns with up to 10,000 or more inhabitants, after all).

Basque language is Non-IE, but it is considered to be descended from one of languages of Neolithic farmers (maybe farmers of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture were mostly R1b).

It is not the language of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.

=========================================

Question is where was R1a in all of that, and was that R1a who Indo-Europeanized R1b.

Another question is what haplogroups did Maikop groups have.

 

[Fire Haired14]

DF27 in German Bell Beaker according to Richard Rocca. Remember U152 was also just found. P312 must have expanded around Bell Beaker times or shortly afterwards.

Genetiker found that the RISE560 Bell Beaker sample is M12124+, which is below DF27 as per Underhill 2015. Source: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/

 

[Tomenable]

The frequency distribution of DF27 subclade in Iberia definitely correlates with areas in Iberia where Non-IE speakers lived in Antiquity, before the adoption of Latin language. Basques and Aquitanians lived near the Pyrenees; Iberians lived in the east; Tartessians and Turdetanians lived in the south:

From the new study on Iberian R1b subclades:

 

[Tomenable]

Genetiker found that the RISE560 Bell Beaker sample is M12124+, which is below DF27

Is there also autosomal data of admixtures for RISE560 ???

How old is RISE560, when did he live ???

 

[Tomenable]

I don't see that as necessarily the case given how young the Basque clades are and the fact that this looks so much like a pretty recent founder effect.

OK but now I am not talking only about the Basques, but about all those Non-IE speaking groups in Ancient Iberia. DF27 in Iberia is surely older than lineages of DF27 found among modern Basques. Founder effects among the Basques result from fact that they are only remnants of the much larger Non-IE population of Iberia in Ancient times. Those Non-IE speakers could be also largely DF27, but different lineages. Just like vast majority of Native Americans are Q - and this is not due to post-1492 founder effects! Some tribes can have very young lineages of Q due to bottlenecks in recent history. Yet Q is still Q.

So Ancient Basques could also have mostly DF27, just a greater diversity of lineages of DF27.

Even Early Medieval Basque-speakers were a larger (more widespread) population than today - as you can see Basque-speaking area has constantly been shrinking since the 1st century BC:

Was it shrinking due to assimilation of the Basques by their neighbours, or due to extinction of Basque population. IMO mostly assimilation rather than physical elimination of the Basques.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

one must ask oneself, ...did R1a and R1b arrive in modern russia and the steppes at the same time , if so, then how did R1b dominate western europe and R1a eastern Europe?

IMO, R1b was always to the west of R1a and entered Europe first in great numbers, the eastern european R1b was eventually diluted in numbers by the late arrival of R1a into europe, ..........maybe there is another scenario

It seems likely to me it was either R1b moved (or was pushed west first) or there were strong R1b founder effects along the Atlantic coast (or both).

The distribution maps of some of the R1b clades suggest to me it was at least *partly* founder effects along the Atlantic coast.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

That map makes no sense. Highest diversity of P312 is near the Alps, not on the French/Spanish border. Also U152 has been found among Bavarian Bell Beakers, so it spread North to South.

It looks like people keep thrwowing guesses around, just like with the out of India R1a theory.

It could have come east to west (hence the lower diversity) and then had very strong founder effects along the Atlantic coast (hence the youth of those clades and the homogeneity and how their distribution seems to center on the coast).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

https://thecampblogbymike.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/haplogroup-r1b-s21.gif

Also if the BB originally came from the same source but had spread along different trade networks in different directions they could have arrived at the coast by different routes leading to some clades being centered in the south and some in the north.

 

[MOESAN]

OK but now I am not talking only about the Basques, but about all those Non-IE speaking groups in Ancient Iberia. DF27 in Iberia is surely older than lineages of DF27 found among modern Basques. Founder effects among the Basques result from fact that they are only remnants of the much larger Non-IE population of Iberia in Ancient times. Those Non-IE speakers could be also largely DF27, but different lineages. Just like vast majority of Native Americans are Q - and this is not due to post-1492 founder effects! Some tribes can have very young lineages of Q due to bottlenecks in recent history. Yet Q is still Q.

So Ancient Basques could also have mostly DF27, just a greater diversity of lineages of DF27.

Even Early Medieval Basque-speakers were a larger (more widespread) population than today - as you can see Basque-speaking area has constantly been shrinking since the 1st century BC:

Was it shrinking due to assimilation of the Basques by their neighbours, or due to extinction of Basque population. IMO mostly assimilation rather than physical elimination of the Basques.

the core area of basque or proto-basque speaking populations seems more Northern: some phonetics traits seems linking basque country to France Gascoyne and even more northernly, until Charentes region and Southern Poitou: So if I'm right and if Basques were a bit more extended southwards, what is not proved yet, this was not going too far in iberia from the present day area. Their links with North seem stronger than the links with South and all over Iberia, even for phonetics traits among basque and some romance subdialects of France. I 've not weighted well enough the surveys about Y-R-DF27 so I cannot for now discuss too deeply the point; DF27 subclades could have reached Spain frim different ways, at different times, even if not in a too broad span of time, and with I-E and not I-E...

 

[Johannes]

OK but now I am not talking only about the Basques, but about all those Non-IE speaking groups in Ancient Iberia. DF27 in Iberia is surely older than lineages of DF27 found among modern Basques. Founder effects among the Basques result from fact that they are only remnants of the much larger Non-IE population of Iberia in Ancient times. Those Non-IE speakers could be also largely DF27, but different lineages. Just like vast majority of Native Americans are Q - and this is not due to post-1492 founder effects! Some tribes can have very young lineages of Q due to bottlenecks in recent history. Yet Q is still Q.

So Ancient Basques could also have mostly DF27, just a greater diversity of lineages of DF27.

Even Early Medieval Basque-speakers were a larger (more widespread) population than today - as you can see Basque-speaking area has constantly been shrinking since the 1st century BC:

Was it shrinking due to assimilation of the Basques by their neighbours, or due to extinction of Basque population. IMO mostly assimilation rather than physical elimination of the Basques.

It was both. During the 7th century the Goths attacked the Basques and defeated them in a serioes of battles. The city of Vitoria -- which lies in the heart of Alava in the Basque Country -- was established and settled by Goths and the Basques were either expelled/exterminated, assimilated, or both. Then in the early 8th century, after the Gohts were defeated by the Berbers, the Basques briefly came down and reoccupied the aread settled by Goths and then retreated when the Gothic leaders in Saragossa (Banu Casi clan) converted to Islam. Then the Basques who had been diluted by then by peoples (mostly Gothic and Celtic) fleeing the Moors, came down during the Reconquista and resettled all the areas shown in the map but lost their language. This was due to the use of Latin which created Castilian and Aragonese during the 9th to 13th centuries.

 

[Johannes]

The frequency distribution of DF27 subclade in Iberia definitely correlates with areas in Iberia where Non-IE speakers lived in Antiquity, before the adoption of Latin language. Basques and Aquitanians lived near the Pyrenees; Iberians lived in the east; Tartessians and Turdetanians lived in the south:

From the new study on Iberian R1b subclades:

Although this map is of recent or modern samples, it clearly shows that the Iberians and Basques were related. I know its too early to tell; however, I bet that the NL/BA inhabitants of Iberia carried mostly R1b-DF27 (and not G, J, I2a, and E1b1) and they came from the east and spoke a proto-Indo-European language. This map shows recent DNA but in ancient times the Basques were located further south of the present area (Navarre and Aragon) -- very close to Iberians. Thus it is further proof that Basques and Iberians were related. Just because the Iberians and Basques did not use the phonecian alphabet -- and thus we cannot descipher their language -- does not mean they did not speak an IE language. Remember that the Greeks borrowed form the phonecians and this how we can understand Greek, Latin, and later other IE languages. But what if IE speakers never adopted the phonecian alphabet??? How will we know what they spoke??? They probably used runes????

 

[Fluffy]

This is the map I made five years ago to show the division between the R1a forest-steppe zone (in yellow) and the R1b steppe zone (in red) within the Yamna culture. All the Yamna samples tested so far come from the red zone (of the grey Volga-Ural region following the R1b arrow on the right).

Interesting to see G2a3b in Yamna culture.