Y-DNA Bassarab Medieval Vlachs

[Riverman]

E-V13 was THE Proto-Thracian haplogroup and remained the vastly dominant haplogroup among Daco-Thracian people. However, it spread to all kinds of people over time, obviously.
The growth pattern and phylogeny of E-V13 aligns fully with the Daco-Thracians people emergence, expansions and decline.

When exactly E-V13 came to two of its main areas of modern distribution: The Central and Southern Balkans and Western Central Europe from the Rhine down to the Ligurian Sea, is still up to debate.

Some argue with the Celts, Romans and migration period and Early Medieval era movements of people, but so far the ancient DNA data record is too patchy to pin it down exactly.

What is for sure and well-documented by now is the association with Daco-Thracian people as the primary early spreader.

 

[Karabars]

E-V13 was THE Proto-Thracian haplogroup and remained the vastly dominant haplogroup among Daco-Thracian people. However, it spread to all kinds of people over time, obviously.
The growth pattern and phylogeny of E-V13 aligns fully with the Daco-Thracians people emergence, expansions and decline.

When exactly E-V13 came to two of its main areas of modern distribution: The Central and Southern Balkans and Western Central Europe from the Rhine down to the Ligurian Sea, is still up to debate.

Some argue with the Celts, Romans and migration period and Early Medieval era movements of people, but so far the ancient DNA data record is too patchy to pin it down exactly.

What is for sure and well-documented by now is the association with Daco-Thracian people as the primary early spreader.

E came from Africa. E-V13 -from what I found- was most likely formed in West Asia. So it most likely isn't a (proto-)Thracian haplogroup. But it was common among them and important to their ethnogenesis.

 

[Riverman]

Western Common Indoeuropean -> Carpatho-Balkan Indoeuropean subgroup -> Proto-Thracian.

In the Proto-Thracian stage, E-V13 was already dominant in its own population and fairly numerous, therefore it is THE Proto-Thracian haplogroup, regardless of whether E-V13 was already Indoeuropean in the stages before.

We now have multiple samples of E-L618 (ancestral group) from Tripolye-Cucuteni, which, incidently, had also features in common with later Thracians, especially if looking at their burial rites. And we have samples from Usatovo-Gorodsk (Indoeuropean-Cucuteni mix) which were E-L618 as well - plus E-L618 among early Greeks/Mycenaeans.

The point is, E-V13 seems to have been Indoeuropeanised in the context of the Western steppe fusion with local Copper Age groups, especially Tripoyle-Cucuteni, but also, possibly, groups like Petresti and Epi-Lengyel etc.
By the time we can speak of Proto-Thracian people, E-V13 was already the dominant group in this population. It established itself somewhere in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere (likely in the Tisza-Danube-Transylvanian zone) in the EBA and the people which got dominated by E-V13 developed Daco-Thracian idioms and customs, obviously with strong local Copper Age influences, like they are visible e.g. in Cotofeni and Vucedol.

 

[Karabars]

By the time we can speak of Proto-Thracian people, E-V13 was already the dominant group in this population.

But it existed in other groups too and originates outside of said group, therefore, it cannot be called "the 'this group' haplogroup". For a haplogroup to be strongly tied to a single ethnic group, it must have formed with it, instead of just have been dominant within it.

It's like calling R1a Slavic. When in reality, Slavics are (mostly) R1a, not vice versa. So E-V13 is not Thracian, but Thracians are (mostly) E-V13. But "Greeks" are also heavily E-V13, and due to Greek conquers, it spreaded to Central Asia as well. Which led to certain nomadic groups to carry E-V13 with themselves, without having anything to do with Thracians.

The modern spread shown by the linked pic is not formed because these are all Thracian descends. But they have common ancestors with Thracians.

 

[Riverman]

The phylogeny and growth pattern of E-V13 implies that E-V13 was formed and spread with Proto-Thracian indeed.

The modern distribution is the result of Thracian lineages moving and being incorporated in other peoples populations.

 

[Karabars]

The phylogeny and growth pattern of E-V13 implies that E-V13 was formed and spread with Proto-Thracian indeed.

The modern distribution is the result of Thracian lineages moving and being incorporated in other peoples populations.

It's hard to read about the subject, but... What I found is, that it is most likely formed in West Asia. It's around 8k years old. While Thracians are roughly 5k years old. With Proto in mind, that is still faraway, especially since Greeks are between the two and they mixed a lot. So sofar it looks like a personal hypothesis rather than a fact.

 

[Riverman]

It's hard to read about the subject, but... What I found is, that it is most likely formed in West Asia. It's around 8k years old. While Thracians are roughly 5k years old. With Proto in mind, that is still faraway, especially since Greeks are between the two and they mixed a lot. So sofar it looks like a personal hypothesis rather than a fact.

E-L618, the ancestor of E-V13, likely entered Europea with Impresso-Cardial culture the first time. This is what the finds point to.

More likely in Europe already, rather than West Asia, E-V13 was formed. But the crucial point is, that E-V13 did nearly die off, just like many E-L618 Neolithic branches did.

The common ancestor of ALL modern E-V13 bearers didn't live when E-V13 was first formed, but around 3.100 BC:

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This means, regardless of what E-V13 was before the Indoeuropean steppe people's invasion, it seems to have been an individual or clan which was incorporated into one of the common Indoeuropean tribes very early on.

Between 2.900 BC to 2.400 BC E-V13 gained some momentum already and we can assume it had many lineages and/or clans in this period.

By 2.400 BC we already see the E-V13 growth pattern becoming signfiicant and this means the vast majority, if not all, of E-V13 lived in one specific Pre- to Proto-Thracian population.

This means two things nearly for sure:
- E-V13 became an Indoeuropean haplogroup latest by about 2.900 BC
- It was a strong to dominant haplogroup in its respective population since about 2.600-2.200 BC.

Before 2.600-2.200 BC, it makes no sense to speak of any Pre-Thracian, let alone Proto-Thracian people, ergo E-V13 is from start to finish the Daco-Thracian haplogroup. And the growth pattern is fairly specific, for the vast majority of E-V13 branches, pointing to them having a population history in common.

There is very little to no overlap with other haplogroups which share that pattern up to about 900 BC, and even then the overlap is rather meagre.

Therefore E-V13 is older, but all modern E-V13 comes from the Indoeuropeanised survivor branch which became Proto-Thracian.

Probably they find a side branch which survived somewhere, like in some isolated highland area, but it won't change what E-V13 as a whole is, which is THE Proto-Thracian haplogroup.

Before the E-V13 growth was no Thracian, and the timeline of E-V13 aligns perfectly with the Thracian expansion.

 

[Aahmes]

E-L618, the ancestor of E-V13, likely entered Europea with Impresso-Cardial culture the first time. This is what the finds point to.

More likely in Europe already, rather than West Asia, E-V13 was formed. But the crucial point is, that E-V13 did nearly die off, just like many E-L618 Neolithic branches did.

The common ancestor of ALL modern E-V13 bearers didn't live when E-V13 was first formed, but around 3.100 BC:

Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover

Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!

discover.familytreedna.com

This means, regardless of what E-V13 was before the Indoeuropean steppe people's invasion, it seems to have been an individual or clan which was incorporated into one of the common Indoeuropean tribes very early on.

Between 2.900 BC to 2.400 BC E-V13 gained some momentum already and we can assume it had many lineages and/or clans in this period.

By 2.400 BC we already see the E-V13 growth pattern becoming signfiicant and this means the vast majority, if not all, of E-V13 lived in one specific Pre- to Proto-Thracian population.

This means two things nearly for sure:
- E-V13 became an Indoeuropean haplogroup latest by about 2.900 BC
- It was a strong to dominant haplogroup in its respective population since about 2.600-2.200 BC.

Before 2.600-2.200 BC, it makes no sense to speak of any Pre-Thracian, let alone Proto-Thracian people, ergo E-V13 is from start to finish the Daco-Thracian haplogroup. And the growth pattern is fairly specific, for the vast majority of E-V13 branches, pointing to them having a population history in common.

There is very little to no overlap with other haplogroups which share that pattern up to about 900 BC, and even then the overlap is rather meagre.

Therefore E-V13 is older, but all modern E-V13 comes from the Indoeuropeanised survivor branch which became Proto-Thracian.

Probably they find a side branch which survived somewhere, like in some isolated highland area, but it won't change what E-V13 as a whole is, which is THE Proto-Thracian haplogroup.

Before the E-V13 growth was no Thracian, and the timeline of E-V13 aligns perfectly with the Thracian expansion.

Where can we expect E-V13 to have been roughly in it's initial expansion, 2800 to 2000 B.C?

 

[Riverman]

Where can we expect E-V13 to have been roughly in it's initial expansion, 2800 to 2000 B.C?

That's the big question. My opinion is somewhere close to the Tisza-Danube zone, like Upper Tisza, Transylvania or Oltenia.

That's also why the Transylvanian Bronze Age paper is so interesting, since it analyses samples from crucial groups of Cotofeni and its descendants (like Livezile, Rosia, Soimus etc.).

One of my favourites for early E-V13 presence (not dominant yet!) is Cotofeni:

Or alternatively, the in part overlapping - they influenced each other - Northern Vucedol groups:

In the later, developed EBA I think that the most likely candidate is the Niyrseg culture:

Centered in the Upper (Transtisza) Tisza zone.

Crucial in the development of the Proto-Thracian culture is avoidance of regular inhumation, with cremation in urns and scattering the ashes being the most common burial rites, as long as the Thracian people were not under foreign influence.

This trend started in late Cotofeni/some Vucedol groups, especially in the Transtisza-Transylvanian zone, and remained there, with relatively limited/short interruptions due to foreign invasions up to the Avar/Christian period, practically to the end of the Dacians as a people (3rd-4th century AD).

That's why most samples for E-V13 are expected to be in the context of foreign influenced or dominated, usually invading groups, like Yamnaya influenced groups in the EBA (like Livezile), Eastern Otomani (Füzesabony-Otomani were foreign invaders from Poland-Slovakia), Noua-Coslogeni-Sabatinovka mixed groups (after the Sabatinovka invasion from the steppe), Thraco-Cimmerian horizon (Mezocsat locals), Scythian groups etc.

The second possibly source are irregular burials. Like even most of the South Thracian E-V13 from Bulgaria we got is from irregular burials of executed and sacrificed people.

The earliest finds we got so far, are mostly from irregular and foreign influenced burials:
- Vekerzug Chotin E-V13: Buried in the Western group, therefore far from home (Eastern likely Dacian Vekerzug Sanislau group cremated mostly)
- Himera E-V13: Buried after battle, not after their own rites, but in a mass grave.
- South Thracian E-V13 from Bulgaria: Some individuals appear to be sacrificed or executed, rather than regularly buried males.

Among Daco-Thracians, it is for many times and regions hard to find regular inhumation burials, especially for free males. Getting children and sacrificed people is more likely, but even those burials are throughout most of their history rare. The common practise was cremation burials in urns and scattered remains.

Both had some predecessors in Tripolye-Cucuteni groups (which had E-L618!) and re-appeared in Cotofeni and later groups of Transylvania.

 

[Karabars]

Seems like a bit of leap of logic there. And will leave it at that, unless a scientific paper claims otherwise and agrees with your assumption.

Thanks for the read tho, it was interesting to consider!

 

[Marcthegenealogist]

E-V13 itself is in South Italy, Greece and even Turkmenistan. It's not a Thracian haplogroup, but a Balkan one (Thracians, and other paleobalkans included), that got spread a lot by Greeks (that's how it ended up in South Italy, and Turkmenistan). Turkmenistan probably got E-V13 during Alexander the Great's conquest. The Pontic Steppe got it either from those ex-greeks in Turkmenistan assimilated into the steppe people or by the greek colonists from the North of the Black Sea assimilating. By these, E-V13 could've ended up in nomads such as the Cumans, "respreading" it into the historical Europe. This is the likely scenario on why certain branches are highly concentrated only in Russia and its surroundings, and it makes the Cuman origin on certain Vlach noble houses still a possibility, even with such a Balkan haplogroup. But having a Cuman origin, won't make it a non-Vlach house. As many mixing and assimilations happened over the milleniums. It's just, having an E haplogroup won't exclude or disprove the other possibilities.

Yes, I've noticed this, I agree, my current census is also that they might be mixed with Avars and or Hungarian Conquerors. I have come to this conclusion due to my grandfather sharing the same haplogroup with the Basarabs and Hunyadi houses and me using Vahaduo (a program that gives you genetic distances to certain peoples) and my closest results were tons of Avars and Hungarian Conqueror samples but a fair share of Illyrian ones too.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Or alternatively, the in part overlapping - they influenced each other - Northern Vucedol groups:

In the later, developed EBA I think that the most likely candidate is the Niyrseg culture:

This trend started in late Cotofeni/some Vucedol groups, especially in the Transtisza-Transylvanian zone, and remained there, with relatively limited/short interruptions due to foreign invasions up to the Avar/Christian period, practically to the end of the Dacians as a people (3rd-4th century AD).

The northern Vucedol crematers are a good candidate as the predecessors of Vatin culture. A new paper from Aleksander Bulatovic reexamined the carbon dating of cultures in eastern Serbia. Paracin culture which was thought to be related to Brnjica and a contemporary culture turns out to be much older, and dated to MBA (1,700 BC), while Brnjica dates to 1,300-1,100 BC. So what we have is a clear trail from north to south movement through time (EBA to EIA), Vatin---->Paracin----->Brnjica----->Pcinja. In that context Vatin itself could be a legacy of a more northern culture such as northern Vucedol.

 

[Marcthegenealogist]

E-V13 itself is in South Italy, Greece and even Turkmenistan. It's not a Thracian haplogroup, but a Balkan one (Thracians, and other paleobalkans included), that got spread a lot by Greeks (that's how it ended up in South Italy, and Turkmenistan). Turkmenistan probably got E-V13 during Alexander the Great's conquest. The Pontic Steppe got it either from those ex-greeks in Turkmenistan assimilated into the steppe people or by the greek colonists from the North of the Black Sea assimilating. By these, E-V13 could've ended up in nomads such as the Cumans, "respreading" it into the historical Europe. This is the likely scenario on why certain branches are highly concentrated only in Russia and its surroundings, and it makes the Cuman origin on certain Vlach noble houses still a possibility, even with such a Balkan haplogroup. But having a Cuman origin, won't make it a non-Vlach house. As many mixing and assimilations happened over the milleniums. It's just, having an E haplogroup won't exclude or disprove the other possibilities.

The haplogroup's density in Italy could indicate the Vlach/Illyrian origin theory which I mentioned earlier, Skanderbeg belongs to the same haplogroup as Vlad the Impaler and the Basarab dynasty, from what I know, Skanderbeg's descendants ended up in Italy, correct me if I'm wrong. It is very tough to pinpoint the exact origin considering that I found a sample with E-V13 (Same branch as the Basarabs) in Central Asia on FTdna under the "Otyrar" cultural group, I've done my research on this cultural group and I can conclude that they come from Turkified "Kangju" people which I then traced to the Pechenegs.