Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

[RealIllyrian]

and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

I will give you two quotes:
Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, you make a very big mistake by calling Albanians Greeks, and trying to explain history as it is greek as you have been told.
hehehe...
Pellasgians were not greek.

By definition, the Pelasgians are the autochthonous (native) inhabitants of Mesolithic Greece. They did not speak Greek, but their language may have contributed to a few loan words in ancient Greek.

may I recommend you to read teh constitution of 1827 of the greek nation and find out what it really is.

You are talking about the modern definition of "Greek" as related to the Greek nation. I don't see how this relates to genetic studies on ancient populations. For example, the modern country of Iran is not composed entirely of people descended from Iranian-speaking tribes - far from it. The same is true for Greece. Modern Greece is a melting pot. The Pelasgians were first there (probably haplogroup I2), then came early farmers from the Near East (E1b1b and J2), herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia (G2), then the Mycenaeans (I would think R1a), the Dorians (possibly R1b) and others.

Ancient Greek language and religion is surely an admixture of all this, although the Indo-European component is stronger than the rest. I suppose that this is because the Mycenaeans and Dorians were the last invaders, whose language and culture eventually stuck, after some adaptation to local idiosyncrasies.

It is so funny to see that people who are obviously intellilgent at the same time are so ignorant simply because they undermine the oldest language in the region Albanian.

Undermine ? How ? Not much is known about the actual origins of Albanian language. Although officially classified as Indo-European, it is obviously a creole with one or several other languages. I would make sense that this was the language spoken by the Neolithic E-V13, J2b and G2a population.

you really need to correct what you write. There is nothing Pellasgian about what you call greeks, as greek is not an ethnic term but a religious term.

Greek is a religious term ? And what religion would that be ancient Greek polytheism or Greek Orthodox Christianity ? What about the Minoans ? Weren't they Greek at all ?

Pellasgian means people of the land of water.
In Albanian: Pellg = body of water,
gia = land, thing, earth

So what ?

you really need to understand history a little better and find out that it is precisely the albanians who are fully in sync with the results presented on this website as far as evolution of the balkans goes. You have no idea what greek is from what I can tell by reading your comments. Unless you call Albanians greeks, and that's a different story altogether.
Find out what greek means, and understand that the historical terms that you are using are highly inaccurate as portrayed in the past 2 centuries. I don't want to ruin the surprise and give it away.

It's funny to see that you think you know what "Greek" mean when your definition is narrower than Bill Clinton's definition of "sex".

 

[Maciamo]

and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

So you are basing your assertion simply on the presumed linguistic of the word Troy, which is, as you should know, a Greek word (Τροία), not a Trojan one.

The Trojans spoke Luwian, an Indo-European language closest to Hittite. The Hittite word for Troy is Wilusa.

you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?

Were you addressing yourself ?

I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

OK, go ahead. Let's have some fun.

 

[Marianne]

and the trojans dear friend were also pellasgians. the historical accounts support that fully.
Troy is also an Albanian word for which the modern word is TROJE, meaning "our land"

you really have no idea what ancient history really is do you?
You shouldn't write things you have no idea about for the sake of writing them dear friend. You might be thinking you are helping people understand, but while you are from a scientific point of view, historically you are bastardizing the facts simply because of your own ignorance to a language that perhaps you think is irrelevant.

I will give you two quotes:
Ernst Maximilian Lambertz: "The world will not know its true history until Albanians participate in its writing"

And Edith Durham" Empires came and went, and passed over the Albanian as does the water off a duck's back"

I will be more than happy to explain you a few things that will only make you understand even better the science that you are presenting through a historical and linguistics viewpoint that only supports what you are presenting, which you seem to have no idea about.

(quote for both your posts)
Oh My God!

I would never expect to find in this forum the same Albanian Propaganda I read by all illiterate people of your nation again and again but I have to admit your posts make me (and everybody else with basic history knowledge) laugh.

All I ready by people who share your points of view is how every word in the universe derives from an Albanian one and how all that we know in this life is a result of the Albanian ancient knowledge... Get serious...

Please, there is no one here you will be able to convince with your views simply because people who post in this forum are people with a certain level of knowledge about European (and not only) history. So keep your propaganda for forums where members didn't manage to finish elementary school and might actually "buy" it...

I won't even bother to counterattack your views because there is no point convincing brainwashed people...

Maciamo no matter what you tell him he will have something to reply so your efforts to prove him that he is wrong will go wasted...

 

[Nicolas Peucelle]

Maciamo... you are THE Master..! Thank you for all these wonderful informations.

 

[Mikewww]

The Phoenicians
The unique colonization pattern of the Phoenicians and the isolation of some of their colonies (Ibiza, Sardinia, Malta) have made it easy to identify their genetic signature. The Phoenician population was already very mixed 3000 years ago : E-V22, J1, J2, J2a4b, J2a4b1, G2a, R1a and R1b1a. E-V22 and R1b1a are quite specific to Levantines (Syrians, Lebanese, Druzes, Jews, Palestinians).

Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

 

[Wilhelm]

Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

Do you have the Source for this claim ?

 

[Maciamo]

Are you intentionally excluding T? Although they are pretty much a low frequency anywhere they are, they are found in areas that were Phoenician colonies. Cadiz, Spain and Huelva have more T than most of western Europe. I'm just getting this from the National Genographic study of Lebanon and the claim they make that they have found varieties of J2 and T where Phoenicians resided.

I should have included T. I just forgot.

 

[iann_allein]

Where is the source of this information??

It is very interesting!
But i want to see your source!

Where is the source of this information??

This is your hypothesis?
:cool-v:

 

[Maciamo]

It is very interesting!
But i want to see your source!

Where is the source of this information??

This is your hypothesis?
:cool-v:

There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.

 

[iann_allein]

There sources are too numerous to list here. It's based on hundreds of Y-DNA studies, almost everything I could find on the Internet + my knowledge of history.

Are you a scientist?
Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
Besides I do not know who you are?
I ask because there are some problems.

Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?
Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

 

[Wilhelm]

Are you a scientist?
Why do you answer all questions on this forum?
Maybe I'm curious, but I see that the information is different in Wikipedia.
Besides I do not know who you are?
I ask because there are some problems.

Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.
Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?
Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

Because, the same way some E sub-haplogroups are born in Greece, also some subclades of J2 are born in Greece, for example J2b

 

[Maciamo]

Are you a scientist?

Yes.

Why do you answer all questions on this forum?

Because there are many people who are interested in that subject, and because some other websites are not always reliable, especially those that rarely update their information or ask real questions, like the Genographic Project.

Why did Europedia call haplogroup E3b Greek, Near-Eastern , North-African?
This haplogroup was born in Africa, not Greece.

What's Europedia ? Nobody uses the term E3b anymore. It's over a year that it has been called E1b1b.

Ok There are subgroups of E which are born in Europe, however, haplogroup J2 was born in northern Mesopotamia, but Europedia called this haplogroup Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Why?

Where did you see that ? Haplogroup E* is definitely African, but I don't know if it still exists. It has plenty of subclades through, like E-V13 which is almost confined to Europe and thought to have appeared (or first become widespread) in northern Greece about 8,000 years ago. Please understand that E is not the same as E1b1b, just like R is not the same as R1b. The deeper the subclade, the more specific it becomes. Besides, the main subclades of E1b1b found in Europe have their origins explained in this website's main article about the history of haplogroups. Anything you think is wrong ? Please share.

Europedia should write Mesopotamian, Anatolian, Greco-Roman. No Greco-Roman, Anatolian,Mesopotamian.
Because Mesopotamian civilization was much older than the Anatolian Civilization or Greco-Roman civilization.

Really doesn't matte to me. I wrote this in a geographic order, from west to east, not in a chronological order. Either way is fine. You could also list them alphabetically if you want.

 

[iann_allein]

I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

Ok



I see that you are not the author of this map.
Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



I'm sorry for my English

 

[iann_allein]

I can not find this map to show you. Sorry.
I hope to find this map .. it is on the internet ..


Europedia = eupedia>>> it is a mistake.



I understand that E is not the same as E1b1b,
but E1b1b is older than E-V13 that is why i want they to be in chronological order.

Ok



I see that you are not the author of this map.
Even if you are the author of this map, I can not find it to show you.



I'm sorry for my English

i found this map but i ca not show it.




This is the link but I separated the letters in order to publish the address.
2qluxvl . p n g

 

[LeBrok]

Nice map, and to my limited knowledge of haplogroups it looks fine. I like the colours used, and short, spot on, description where they come from (on top).
I mentioned the colours, because sometimes I have problems distinguishing yellow from light green, and few other combinations, in small chart circles. No problems here, almost like I picked the colours here, lol.

 

[JPtoEurope]

Strange ancient Egytians aADN?

Hello Maciano,

First, sorry for my bad english, I m french

You say:

The ancient Egyptians
Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the ancient Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b and T. Nowadays about half of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1, about 1/3 of the population), but also from Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...

(replace ** by TT)
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4950/toutankamonetreine2h.jpg
h**p://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6118/tomberamsesi02m.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3167/scribe01384x512.jpg (yes its eyes are blue)
h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2094/ramsesenemies04.jpg
h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/954/tomberamsesiu.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2575/nefertitit.jpg

Except, but later after the first Egyptians dynasties, a mix with Semitic people and the short black Nubian people dynasty.

And the Egyptians knew, too, to do the difference between them and their enemies...

h**p://img27.imageshack.us/img27/420/ramssenemies01.jpg
h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3903/ramsesenemies02.jpg
h**p://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1364/toutankareposepied1a.jpg
h**p://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4254/toutankamonsandales2.jpg
h**p://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6228/toutankamoncoffre1a.jpg
h**p://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9044/toutankamoncoffre2rduit.jpg

Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps). And IJK (Y-DNA) are the haplogroups downward to this North > South migrations...

Because the white skin (and light eyes too) is only generate by the light phenomenon (sun) more rare, and this phenomenon occurs only in Europe and Northern Eurasia... And these North > South population movements have necessarily been important to be able to change skin color and appearance (nose fine and right, face shape, etc.) in a important proportion to the "Fertile Crescent" (Anatolie, The Levant, Mesopotamia) and North Africa. Or maybe totally inundate the autochthon population (if indigenous people existed? before 12/10 000 years ago).

One of this South to North movements (maybe the laster and because surely there are several), dating surely to the last big cooler weather (but without ice cap) to 12000 years ago (last big cooler with ice cap date to 18 000 years ago).

All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)

Regards

 

[JPtoEurope]

PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).

 

[LeBrok]

Good points JPto.
I would like to add that if Cro Magnons picked white skin gene from Neanderthals it could have happened in Middle East. Can't point to the source now, but I remember reading article showing that both species cohabited caves around Israel area 50 thousand years ago. When Cro Magnon moved into Europe 35KYA they might have been already white or at least not very dark.
It would be nice one day to get genetic data in this regard and few others, even if it proves me wrong.

 

[Maciamo]

Hello Maciano,
First, sorry for my bad english, I m french
You say:
You are sure ? You see E1b1b and T haplogroups for ancient Egyptians in the images below? Personally I see only N (mtDNA) and R, I (and maybe IJK, but read below)(Y-DNA)...

First of all this thread is only about Y-DNA, not mtdna. But just to correct you, mtDNA N arose about 70,000 years ago (have a look at the timeline), and we are talking about the ancient Egyptian civilisation, starting about 5,000 years ago. All the modern haplogroups and most subclades (both for mtDNA and Y-DNA) would have already existed from 5,000 to 2,000 years ago.

Y-haplogroups I and R are almost certainly two of those that, if present at all, were insignificant in the ancient Egyptian population.

Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls). Ancient and modern Egyptians and Near Easterners on the contrary were/are gracile and narrow faced with high skulls. Whether you base your comparison on ancient skeletons or ancient depictions of Egyptians, it shows that the Egyptian and Levantine population almost haven't changed at all over time in this regard.

Because you forget the most important parameter, it's that the presence to the white skin in the Mediterranean human people has necessarily been generated, at a time or more, by a North > South migration and that the population movements were not only and always from South > North migrations (as in all your maps).

What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners.

The first Cro-Magnons were probably dark-skinned, as opposed to white-skinned Neanderthals. Modern humans could have picke up a few genes for fair skin from Neanderthals, but whether this happened in Europe, the Middle-East or Central Asia is anyone's guess. It could have happened in the three regions. If it was only one, I would pick Central Asia, because this is where Y-haplogroups N, O, P, Q and R all came from, and white skin is present in all these populations (respectively, Siberians, East Asians, Central Asians, Native Americans and Europeans + some Middle Easterners and South Asians).

All the more recent information about that, history to Europe and Fertile Crescent and aADN, in this serious site to a historian (with all the last scientist references/links) here
w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast (add "ww" before url)
Regards

Thanks, but I know this site well (and its owner). You may have noticed that I explain a lot of these things on this site too, notably here.