Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

PS: I want say to the admin to this site (dont know if it's you)
that the politic to accept a url only after 15 posts is very not serious and very strange (in 10 years that I surf in the Web, it's the first time that I see that on a forum).

This is because of spammers. That's one way of discouraging them, or at least make their spam ads useless until they get deleted.
 
It is my own supposition based my knowledge of the modern Basque people. That's why I said "it is probable". If DNA had been conducted on the ancient, pre-Indo-European Basques proving that they indeed had dark hair and eyes, I would have said "it has been proved". I cannot see how they would have fair hair or eyes before the R1b Indo-European invasion.
yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

(13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistoria.html#Indoeuroparrak


11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.
 
"Are you aware that the early Indo-Europeans (e.g. Pontic-Caspian Neolithic, the R1a and R1b "homeland") were mostly Proto-Europoids, meaning that they had mixed Europoid and Mongoloid traits (very broad, thick-boned faces, lower skulls)."
Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
"...Studies of ancient DNA indicate the point at which East Asian peoples came to predominate over Western Eurasian in Central Asia. In Kazakhstan there were Western Eurasian lineages prior to the 7th century BC, followed by East Asian lineages appearing..."

"What makes you think that North Africans or Middle Easterners didn't have fair skin 5,000 years ago ? Fair skin is a polygenic trait (i.e. involving many genes). It has been estimated that the very first signs of skin colour becoming fairer happened sometimes between 50,000 and 20,000 years ago, so before most of the modern genes from the Middle East reached Europe. Europeans with pale skin have an additional mutation in the SLC24A5 gene, which has been estimated to have arisen between 6,000 and 12,000 years ago. Before there was no difference in skin colour between Europeans and Middle Easterners."
30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...

bye
 
PS:

The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking). The lasts representative of those Europeans peoples in the Eurasia steppes, are the Scythes. The first main people to have reversed this West > East flow in the Eurasia steppe in East > West flow, is a people interbreeding between Europeans and Asiatics... named the Turcs. And more recently and after 1400 years of Asiatics (turko-mongolians) domination in steppes, the flow is again reversed West to the East, for the Europeans, about the seventeenth century, with the Russian conquests, right down Pacific.
 
I think Bell Beakers were mixed.

They belonged to haplogroups I2a, I2a1, I2b, and two neolithic haplogroups E-V13 and J2b.

All of these are the first miners in the Sardinia. We still can find these haplogroups in Sardinia, together with G haplogroup, which represents later miners, after collapse of first metallurgy in Europe.

But Bell Beakers were partially dinarics.

Which racial phenotype, by which haplogroup was brought into the invader peoples and then in the invaded countries?

Maybe J2b and E-V13 were dinarics as they are today in Montenegro, Albania, Kosovo and Greece. And I2* were dolichocephals.
 
Sorry, but I never read that in any serious sites. Only that the Asiatic flow (and gene) come to Est to West very later (last thousand years BC)... By example, this again explen in this page **w.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/migration.shtml (and of course cross-check by other reliable sources)
...
PS:
The first "steppe peoples" in Eurasia are not Asiatics (racially speaking), but are the Europeans peoples (always racially speaking).

According to anthropologist David Anthony in his book The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, steppe people of the Bug-Dniester and later Yamna culture were all low-skulled, very wide-faced Proto-Europoids (mixed European and Mongoloid traits). He also mentions that the early Yamna settlers in the Danube basin (3000-2600 BCE), in places like Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, were still the same Proto-Europoids, contrasting neatly with the gracile, high-skulled and narrow-faced people of "Old Europe".

David Anthony is a well-respected specialist of Indo-European archaeology. As he is first and foremost a professor of anthropology, there is no doubt he can recognise anthropological features from skeletons.

JPtoEurope said:
30,000, 20,000, 12,000, 6,000 or 5,000... It's not very the problem about I speak. At any time that it is able of begin, even with a possible mix Cro-magnon with Neanderthal (besides, Neanderthal species is found mainly in Europe), "white skin" and similarly for the hair and eyes clear, is inevitably the result from a phenomenon of adaptation to northern climate. And this genetic result probably very in North for act so strongly on the genes, same if the ices were at the time closest in south Eurasia that currently... So, inevitably white skin genes comming of North toward Middle East and north africa... and in mass (of course compared to the population at the time). This climate existing only in Northern Eurasia close to the ice and cold climate...

You forget that northern Europe was under a thick sheet of ice during the Ice Age, until 14,000 years ago. Only southern Europe was inhabitable, at roughly the same latitude as the Middle East and Central Asia. There is no reason to believe that fair pigmentation arose in Europe rather than in the Middle East or Central Asia. The northernmost inhabitable regions were actually in Central Asia, so it is more likely to have appeared over there. If fair skin first appeared in Europe, how did East Asians develop fair skin ?
 
yes, they had fair hair before indo-europeans , although very minoritary. Also indicating that Basque people have only about 25% of indo-european admixture :

(13) Raza pirenaico-occidental o vasca: tipo racial surgido de la evolución local del hombre de Cromagnon. La antropología engloba el tipo vasco dentro de la raza caucásica. Sus características físicas son las siguientes:

Ortognatismo: perfil recto de la cara prescindiendo de la nariz. Dolicocéfalos con bóveda craneana baja (en Iparralde la dolicocefalia puede atenuarse, e incluso puede convertirse en braquicefalia por influencia del tipo alpino). Rino-prosapia: gran desarrollo vertical de la cara en relación a la longitud de la boca. Estrechez maxilar y mesocefalia: cara triangular con sienes abultadas. Orificio occipital oblicuo: el borde anterior se encuentra muy metido o hundido. Mandíbula inferior: más bien estrecha y la barbilla recogida. La cara es muy alta, así como la nariz, siendo esta última muy saliente y con perfil a menudo convexo. El cabello: predominan los morenos sobre los castaños, siendo los rubios o pelirrojos muy minoritarios y fruto del mestizaje. Los ojos: más bien pequeños, pero muy abiertos, predominando los castaños, garzos y azules, sobre negros, verdes y grises. Comunmente los de tipo vasco se distinguen de sus vecinos latinos por su mayorObjetos prerromanos encontrados en las ruinas de la civitas romana de Iruña-Veleia en la actual localidad de Iruña de Oka (Álava) estatura y corpulencia, a lo que ha de añadirse cierta tendencia a una coloración más clara de la tez.

http://www.kondaira.net/esp/THistoria.html#Indoeuroparrak


11) Investigaciones realizadas principalmente por Peter Forster, doctor en Biología y miembro destacado del Instituto McDonald, y sus colaboradores del laboratorio de genética molecular de este instituto. El estudio por otras universidades del ADN mitocondrial, así como el estudio del cromosoma Y (paterno) para realizar la misma investigación (en lugar del ADN mitocondrial), apunta hacia las mismas conclusiones.

A partir de esta época, probablemente, se comienza a desarrollar en la zona cantábrica y sur de Francia el grupo humano protovasco y su lengua, el protoeuskara, dando lugar a la civilización franco-cantábrica. Del 16.000 a.C. en adelante el clima comienza a ser más cálido y según las investigaciones de paleogenética, comienza la expansión de los protovascos, extendiendo su cultura, la magdaleniense, por la despoblada Europa. Una cultura cuya máxima expresión serían las pinturas rupestres con las que los protovascos Indumentaria de los protovascos en el magdalenienseornamentaron las cuevas europeas. La extensión y localización de la cultura magdaleniense en Europa, coincide exactamente con este estudio, asimismo los rasgos fonéticos y léxicos comunes con los vascos, encontrados en las tierras donde se extendió la antigua civilización franco-cantábrica (tercio norte peninsular y mitad sur de Francia) de esta época, parecen avalar también este estudio. Hace 10.000 años comenzó el deshielo de los glaciares escandinavos, lo que contribuyó a que los protovascos se extendieran también por esta zona.

Estas investigaciones genéticas llevadas a cabo para el conocimiento de la evolución humana en Europa, indican que tres cuartos de los europeos actuales proceden, por vía matrilineal, de una población europea del período preglacial y que están estrechamente emparentados con los vascos. Indicando también que el aporte genético no protovasco (indoeuropeo en su gran mayoría) supone, únicamente, el 25% del total.

This site doesn't give clear information about the skeletons studied. What is their radiocarbon dating ? How many skeletons ? It doesn't look very scientific. Dates under the title "Neolithic" range from 2500 to 300 BCE, which is to say early Bronze Age to Iron Age. Your description is right in the middle of this "chapter" and refers to the modern incidence of R1b as a sign of "prehistoric origin". That doesn't mean anything. The Indo-Europeans could have arrived as early as 2500 BCE in Western Europe, although more probably around 2200-2000 BCE. Fair or red hair from that period onwards could be Indo-European.

If you find clearly radiocarbon dated specimens of fair/red hair in Western Europe prior to 2500 BCE, please let me know.
 
The ancient Greek & Romanss

=> See post #3 below.


What do you mean? Maciamo.

The ancient Germanic people,
The ancient Slavs 0r
The ancient Indians?
 
Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
not show any mongoloid trait.
 
Please explain me how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans had some
Mongoloide traits. The haplogroups of the Northwest-Europeans do
not show any mongoloid trait.

This is because they didn't move straight from the steppe to North-West Europe (there were no air planes at the time ;) ), but spent 500 years (roughly from 3000 to 2500 BCE) intermixing with other Europeans in the Danube basin before settling around the Alps, where they further mixed with the locals before continuing to Western and Northern Europe. This is why Europeans still vary a lot in term of autosomal DNA where Y-DNA is similar. The oldest population has had the most important phenotypic influence on modern people. Only genetic traits that were selected for their usefulness (e.g. lactose tolerance) or aesthetic value (fair pigmentation) spread quickly. For the rest we are not so strongly genetically connected with the people who lived in the Pontic steppes 5000 years ago.
 
But I do not understand how it is possible that the Indo-Europeans who moved to West-
Europe, had mongoloid traits. So northwest Europeans also have mongoloid ancestors?
 
Well northwest Europeans, as every other European, didn't "grow" suddenly in the fields and trees of Northwest Europe. They came from somewhere and that was Asia. There was mixing within Europe but all Europeans have Asian ancestors and according to the Out-of-Africa theory we all have African ancestors.

I don't understand why it is so surprising for you.
 
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.
 
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.
And what 'pure Nordic' is supposed to mean ??
Mongoloids traits are not just slanted eyes. Plus, thousands of years of evolution and interbreeding with the natives pre-Indoeuropeans and Near-easterns, this mongoloid traits have disappeared
 
But you do not see any mongoloid traits with the Netherlands and
Danes. I suppose that they are the purest nordic and falish people.
Really germanic.

Actually all Scandinavians all slight Mongoloid traits. It is more marked in some regions, like Gotland island or northern Sweden. There is a substantial amount of Siberian haplogroups in Scandinavia (e.g. 7% of N1c1 and 0.5% of Q in Sweden, and up to 5% of mtDNA A, C and D). Some places invaded by the Vikings, like Orkney, have more haplogroup Q than in modern Scandinavia, so Vikings could have been more Mongoloid-looking too. Actually, we could go as far as to say that Mongoloid DNA is what distinguishes Nordic people from other Europeans. Finland and Baltic countries, which have the highest percentage of both fair hair and blue eyes have the highest percentage of Siberian haplogroups (60% of Y-DNA in Finland).

Physical traits can change fast. Skeletons from Europeans 2000 years ago are quite different from that of modern Europeans. In the 10,000 year explosion, the author explains that people back then often had strong brow ridges, a trait that has nearly completely disappeared in modern Europeans.
 
Many people seem to have a distorted idea of what the term Nordic entails, racially. No different than for many other ethnicities around the world. The word "pure" should never be used to define any ethnicity / race.
 
Many thanks for these interesting information. But I can imagine myself
that mongoloid traits are found in Russia, Finland or Lappland. How are
these traits with the Scandinavians caused? By contacts with Finns
or Sami?

Are these mongoloid traits found with the Danes, Germans and Dutch too?
It is a difficult thing for me to understand it. Swedish people with so
pure fair (even flaxen or red) hair have mongoloid ancestors! You only can expect it with the Hungarians, Slavic and Finnish peoples.
 
And browrigdes: this is characteristic for farmers and sailors at the
North Sea (Friesland, north Germany and Jutland). Probably descendants
of the Bruenn/Aurignac and Borreby men who lived in southwest France
during the Ice Age. See Coon: Races of the Europe (chapter the Netherlands).

A joke: Virchow (a German anthropologist 19e century,thought that he saw real Neanderthalers in the Dutch province of Friesland).
 
Many thanks for these interesting information. But I can imagine myself
that mongoloid traits are found in Russia, Finland or Lappland. How are
these traits with the Scandinavians caused? By contacts with Finns
or Sami?

Are these mongoloid traits found with the Danes, Germans and Dutch too?
It is a difficult thing for me to understand it. Swedish people with so
pure fair (even flaxen or red) hair have mongoloid ancestors! You only can expect it with the Hungarians, Slavic and Finnish peoples.

Well according to this table here http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml there is 1% N1c1 and 0.5% Q in Germany (with North Germany having 2% Q and 1.5% N1c1), 1,5% N1c1 in Denmark and 0.5% N1c1 and 0.5% in The Netherlands so there is some Siberian admixture in these countries.
 
I still have difficulties to accept mongoloid traits in real nordic and Germanic
people. I suppose that you find these traits only in the Russians.
I should like to see such mongoloid slits in Swedes or Dutch.
 

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