Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

[andmed]

Question

Thanks for the interesting topic.Can somebody suggest a book, where to find facial patterns of different haplogroups, with photos? I have seen many works o genetics (of very popular nature, though), but none of them provided this. I hope there are some, they woild be most interesting!(Are not they considered politically "correct"?)

 

[Humanist]

The ancient Babylonians

Babylonians and Assyrians belonged mostly to haplogroup J (mostly J2, but with some J1 in southern Mesopotamia) with a minority of E1b1b, G and K. Haplogroup G is more common around the Caucasus.

Updated frequencies

The great majority of modern Aramaic-speaking Assyrian Y-DNA is distributed across five primary haplogroups:

n=70
R1b 27%
J1 17%
J2 16%
T 11%
G 11%
E1b 4%
R1a 4%
R2a 3%
F 1%
I 1%
L 1%
Q1b 1%

The above distribution is most similar to Armenian Y-DNA (see FTDNA Armenian project) and northern Iraqi Jewish Y-DNA (see Nebel et al.). R1b is mostly, presumably, of the R-L23 variety. J1 is mostly of the J1-M267 (w/DYS388=13)* type. Highest rate of T (possibly majority T2a1) among Near Eastern populations is observed in the Assyrian population. G consists mostly of the G2 varieties.

Sources:
Assyrian, Aramaic, Iranian and Iraqi FTDNA Projects
23andMe Database
SMGF Database
Zalloua et al. (Y-chromosomal diversity in Lebanon...)


* J1-M267 frequency in the Assyrian population also touched upon in the soon to be published paper on Marsh Arabs by Nadia Al-Zahery. Quotation, below, from poster at last month's presentation:

Interestingly, when the two M267 subclades, J1-M267* and J1e are considered (Fig. 3, B and C), differential frequency trends emerge. The less represented J1-M267* primarily diffuses towards North East Mesopotamia and shows its maximum frequency in the northern area (Assyrian). In contrast, the most frequent J1e accounts for almost all the J1 distribution in South West Mesopotamia, reaching its highest value in the Marshes. By considering the STR variance associated to the two different subsets of J1 chromosomes (Fig. 3, D and E), the highest variance for both J1-M267* and J1e is registered in the northern Mesopotamia area. . . . The lower variance value (0,118) registered in the Marshes Arabs is in agreement with a recent expansion event which, itself, clearly emerges from the network analysis (Fig. 4). The presence of Y chromosomes belonging to the M267* paragroup suggests a long persistence of this haplogroup in the Mesopotamia Marsh area.

If you wish to read about Assyrian autosomal DNA, please see Marnie Dunsmore's Linear Population Model blog. She has some very interesting opinions regarding our genetic signature. A few select bits are below:

Assyrians (November 15, 2010):

Once again, with the recent Dodecad Ancestry Project results for Assyrians, we see a breathtaking concurrence between history and autosomal genetic data.

It is as if Assyrians, genetically speaking, are frozen in time, sometime in the Middle Assyrian Period....

Eurogenes K10 Middle East Admixture Results (November 30, 2010):

Mizrahi Jews group together, along with Assyrians and Druze as Northern Fertile Crescent populations.

 

[Thomas15n]

Hello to everyone, I'm tottaly new in this forum and please forgive my english.
Today for the first time I saw that forum and I readed some facts about the dna of europeans across the continent.
Everything are very interesting for me I have no conection with genetics I simply read some about history and culture.
But I felt really bad when I read some posts from some person wich make a clear propaganda with no scientific evidence just only to pass the propaganda of their native countries, especially about Greece and Greeks.
And because I'm Greek I have the duty to answer them about their lies.
When there are scientific evidences form Universities like Strandford Pavia Moscow that showing clear that the modern Greeks are the same as their ancestors proving that truth, can anyone stand against that?
Of course but wich are these people some propagandists which they want to say only lies. Even in this site there is a table with haplogroups that showing that Greece is a genuine not only European but an native nation of this continent. And try to say these people that Greeks are from somewhere else, but them are the really Europeans.
I wonder whom they can fool? None but themselves!!!
Where are their ancient literature and writers where are their ancient artists where are their written languages before 20th century, those newly languages wich created by politicians (Tito FYROM) or in other case took their alphabet in 20th century (Albania).
And dare to speak about Greece! Your own alphabets (Latin and Cyrillic) are derived from Greek wich is the oldest in Europe and before that the Grammic A and B and Minoan, thousand years before.
I can read today the Ancient Greek with almost no help and understand the meanings, the most of modern Greeks they use today Homeric words and ancient greek proverbs! They Can do the same to their Languages?
Of course NOT because they have nothing to read about.
They speak about Pelasgians as their ancestors, by what source they have that knowledge from their ancient writers and Philosophers? They have ANY? Of Course NO, Herodotos and all others are GREEK.
When the Albania made an international contest of beauty some years ago put inside the Hall some ancient greek columns and a big statue of Nike from Samothraki, Why So, where is their civilization? And as for the Skopian one let ask his compatriots, ex-minister mr Daskalos-ki (Daskalos means Teacher in Greek) and the journalist mr Geros-ki (Geros means Old Man in Greek) about.

 

[Thomas15n]

Because I'm an orthodox christian and I believe in God, mr Skopian. Read this.

DANIEL 8:20-21
Ha'ayil asher-ra'ita ba'al ha keranayim; MALCHEI MADAI u FARAS.
Aries quem vidisti habere cornua REX MEDORUM est atque PERSARUM.
Ve ha tzafir ha sa'ir MELECH YAVAN; ve ha keren ha gedovlah asher bein-einav, hu ha melech ha rishovn.
Porro hircus caprarum REX GRAECORUM est et cornu grande quod erat inter oculos eius ipse est rex primus.

You see propagandist WHAT GOD says through Angel to Prophet Daniel? The first King is a king of TWO Nations Medes and Persians; the second King is a King of ONLY ONE Nation the Greeks. Don't say Macedonians and Greeks, BUT ONLY GREEKS.
The second King as We All know is Alexander the Great, and You wanted or no IS A GREEK KING.
But sorry I forgot God is a Greek Propagandist, Isn't So. As you see even God is with us and not with You.

Двата рога на овена, които си видял, са царете на Мидия и на Персия. Буйният козел е гръцкият цар; и големият рог между очите му е първият цар.

Овен, которого ты видел с двумя рогами, это цари Мидийский и Персидский.
А козел косматый-- царь Греции, а большой рог, который между глазами его, это первый ее царь;

Ovan što si ga vidio - njegova dva roga - to su kraljevi Medije i Perzije.
Rutavi jarac jest kralj Grčke; veliki rog među njegovim očima jest prvi kralj;

You see the name Makedonski or Makedonija? Where is I don't see it!!!

 

[DejaVu]

What information posted here is propaganda? All posts have links.
Using name like skopian (greek invention) is propaganda. This statement clearly says that todays fake Greeks dont have a clue (denying) who the people from Macedonia (FYROM) are. If you dont want to see what have been posted dont bother to write about something you have no evidence of or start to link to prove your conclusions.

Thomas15n
DANIEL 8:20-21
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iii.xxv.html?bcb=right
20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.


If you want evidence from the bible here it is:
http://www.openbible.info/

Acts 16:9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us."

Acts 16:10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them.
Acts 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city.
Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:21 Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."
Acts 19:22 Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Acts 20:1 After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia.
Acts 20:3 When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
Romans 15:26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:5 But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 1:16 and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea.
2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 7:5 For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside.
2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia;
2 Corinthians 9:2 for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them.
2 Corinthians 11:9 When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so.
Philippians 4:15 You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?



Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution.

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia.

Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries? Because they are different nations since the beginning of existence.

 

[Regulus]

A tremendous misuse of the writer's time-

The New testament is replete with exact names on regions, cities, etc. I find no mention of Italy, Greece, Anatolia or Asia Minor, etc. So the verse-slinging proves nothing.

I don't know if there will be any appreciable agreement with modern Macedonians and Greeks, but calling todays Greeks "fakes" is cruel besides being devoid of facts.

 

[DejaVu]

To speak mixed dialect of ancient Greeks and live in todays Greek territory are no proof of claiming same ancestry of antiquity (evidence).

Where is the proof to call todays Greeks for fake?
If you havent followed what have been posted here then you wont know, read the thread.
Does not mean all inhabitants, maybe some can prove their origin in acceptable way (?)

Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact. People who dont want to accept the truth that todays nations have mixed population and deny the self determination of inhabitants, will always be fake and todays Greece and Greeks represent it.

 

[Regulus]

To speak mixed dialect of ancient Greeks and live in todays Greek territory are no proof of claiming same ancestry of antiquity (evidence).

Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact.

Whatever...

 

[Thomas15n]

Fake Greeks = People from todays Greece who claim ancestry from antiquity without evidence. Nothing cruel about that, its a fact. People who dont want to accept the truth that todays nations have mixed population and deny the self determination of inhabitants, will always be fake and todays Greece and Greeks represent it.

ANSWER TO SKOPIAN = FAKE MACEDONIAN

"Below is a report on a study done by Stanford University in the USA and by Pavia University in Italy.
Their research has concluded that the DNA make-up of today's Greek is 99.5% the same as the DNA make-up of the Hellenes (Greeks) of ancient times.


Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times.

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years.

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA.

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA.

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors."

YOU SEE PROPAGANDIST LIAR WHAT SCIENCE SAYS.
AND AS FOR WHAT YOU ENTER FROM NEW TESTAMENT I CAN PUT HERE MORE PROOF AND IN THE PROTOTYPE BUT I'M AFRAID THAT YOU CAN NOT READ, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW GREEK.
IF YOU WANT SOME I CAN PUT HERE A LOT. SO STOP WRITE NONSENSE.

 

[Thomas15n]

By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.

I'm thinking that You must have a problem in your mind, you are unable to understand the meaning of the words?
The Hebrews even today when the say Javan the mean Greek and NO OTHER NATION ONLY GREEK.
The Old Testament the "SEPTUAGINTA" translated in Ptolemaic Alexandria by Hebrews Rabbies and noblemen for the Hebrews of Egypt because they were speaking only Greek and they don't spoke hebrew, when they translated they knew about Macedonians of course but they don't enter the name "macedonian" but they wrote only the name "greek" in the prophecy of Daniel.
Because they knew that macedonians are greek as well as the other greeks, Ionians Spartans Epirotes etc.

 

[Thomas15n]

In Roman times when the Paul lived the Empire was divided in provinces and all provinces had names as Thracia, Epirus Vetus (greek Epirus), Epirus Novus (today Albania), Macedonia, Achaia, Asia (Ionia and Aeolia), Bithynia, Lycia, Karia, Pontus, Creta, Cyprus etc.
So What You are trying to proove that macedonia had different name!!!

Even today all countries have provinces with different names that means these provinces are different nation!!! Are You serious? Sorry but You must have some problem.

 

[Thomas15n]

ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΩΝ 7:1-17
Διοδευσαντες δε τηνΑμφιπολιν και Απολλωνιαν ηλθον εις Θεσσαλονικην οπου ην η συναγωγη των Ιουδαιων κατα δε το ειωθος τω Παυλω εισηλθεν προς αυτους και επι σαββατα τρια διελεξατο αυτοις απο των γραφων διανοιγων και παρατιθεμενος οτι τον Χριστον εδει παθειν και αναστηναι εκ νεκρων και οτι ουτος εστιν ο Χριστος Ιησους ον εγω καταγγελλω υμινκαι τινες εξ αυτων επεισθησαν και προσεκληρωθησαν τω παυλω και τω Σιλα των τε σεβομενων Ελληνων πολυ πληθος γυναικων τε των πρωτων ουκ ολιγαι προσλαβομενοι δε οι Ιουδαιοι οι απειθουντες των αγοραιων τινας ανδρας πονηρους και οχλοποιησαντες εθορυβουν την πολιν επισταντες τε τη οικια Ιασονος εζητουν αυτους αγαγειν εις τον δημονμη ευροντες δε αυτους εσυρον τον Ιασονα και τινας αδελφους επι τους πολιταρχας βοωντες οτι οι την οικουμενην αναστατωσαντες ουτοι και ενθαδε παρεισιν ους υποδεδεκται ιασων και ουτοι παντες απεναντι των δογματων Καισαρος πρασσουσιν βασιλεα λεγοντες ετερον ειναι Ιησουν εταραξαν δε τον οχλον και τους πολιταρχας ακουοντας ταυτα και λαβοντες το ικανον παρα του Ιασονος και των λοιπων απελυσαν αυτους
Οι δε αδελφοι ευθεως δια της νυκτος εξεπεμψαν τον τε παυλον και τον Σιλαν εις Βεροιαν οιτινες παραγενομενοι εις την συναγωγην απηεσαν των Ιουδαιων ουτοι δε ησαν ευγενεστεροι των εν Θεσσαλονικη οιτινες εδεξαντο τον λογον μετα πασης προθυμιας το καθ ημεραν ανακρινοντες τας γραφας ει εχοι ταυτα ουτως πολλοι μεν ουν εξ αυτων επιστευσαν και των Ελληνιδων γυναικων των ευσχημονων και ανδρων ουκ ολιγοι ως δε εγνωσαν οι απο της Θεσσαλονικης Ιουδαιοι οτι και εν τη Βεροια κατηγγελη υπο του παυλου ο λογος του θεου ηλθον κακει σαλευοντες τους οχλους ευθεως δε τοτε τον Παυλον εξαπεστειλαν οι αδελφοι πορευεσθαι ως επι την θαλασσαν υπεμενον δε ο τε σιλας και ο τιμοθεος εκει οι δε καθιστωντες τον παυλον ηγαγον αυτον εως Αθηνων και λαβοντες εντολην προς τον Σιλαν και Τιμοθεον ινα ως ταχιστα ελθωσιν προς αυτον εξηεσαν.

ACTS 7:1-15
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ." Some of them were persuaded, and joined Paul and Silas, of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and not a few of the chief women. But the unpersuaded Jews took along some wicked men from the marketplace, and gathering a crowd, set the city in an uproar. Assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them out to the people. When they didn't find them, they dragged Jason and certain brothers before the rulers of the city, crying, "These who have turned the world upside down have come here also, whom Jason has received. These all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus!" The multitude and the rulers of the city were troubled when they heard these things. When they had taken security from Jason and the rest, they let them go.
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea. When they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Many of them therefore believed; also of the prominent Greek women, and not a few men. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Beroea also, they came there likewise, agitating the multitudes. Then the brothers immediately sent out Paul to go as far as to the sea, and Silas and Timothy still stayed there. But those who escorted Paul brought him as far as Athens. Receiving a commandment to Silas and Timothy that they should come to him very quickly, they departed.

Thessalonica, Beroea, Amphipolis, Appolonia cities of Macedonia Roman Era.

Those Greeks in Thessalonica and those Greek women in Beroea, were Slavs, Jews, Latins Chinese, Japanese, Mayas, Ethiopians, Negroafricans or What!!! because says Greeks and Greek women.

Now I'm sure 100% Apostles Luke (writer of the acts) and Paul sure was progreek propagandists as well as the Hebrews of Alexandria the Prophet Daniel the Angel and even God himself.
All them knew that these people were macedonian slavs and tried to hide it.
　

 

[LeBrok]

Can you link us with this study? I'm curious how many DNA from Hellenes times, or any ancient Greek period, got analyzed to figure out Y and X DNAs of original population. Where the slaves included as Greeks or separated in ancient DNA tests? What is their definition of "White" DNA? Was the sample of today's Greeks as random (all citizens included) or selected only form secluded mountain/villages population?

Sorry but if after 3000 years of rich history someone tells me that Greeks are 99.5% the same, I'm at least a bit sceptical.
You are not, because that's exactly what you want to believe in. Somehow it makes you a real Greek if you are of ancient, white, no change stock with a bible in your hand.

PS. I have greek friends and don't care how they look like, or what they believe in. But now after reading your post I'll send them for DNA testing, as they might not be the good white greek stock, not worhy of my friendship.

 

[Regulus]

The link to the study would be of help.

I think that the stresses on the word "white" that keep coming up in this thread are not intended to raise the image of white people per se or to put anyone else down. It looks to me that the intention of those who use that word is to contradict those who hold that the ancient Greeks (I assume Mycenaeans) were a Black people. I have come across this a number of times before I joined this forum.

Before anyone reads the following, I will have to again lay it out that I disdain any idea of racial supremacy, so please do not twist my words around:

Those from Iberia, Southern Italy, and Greece are often confronted with the claim that their countries were originally populated with Black Africans.
An old insult hurled at Iberians is the "Africa begins at the Pyrenees".
The Italians are told that Sicily and Southern Italy was populated by large numbers of Blacks, and the Greeks are told that pretty much the same.

Some revisionists who come from an anti-white movement have put out the claims that the achievements of the ancient Greeks were actually the result of blacks who inhabited Greece or of blacks who had their knowledge stolen from them in Africa by an army of Greeks.

The claims that Hannibal was either himself a black or that he brought along a huge army of blacks still rears its head here and there. I recently even came across a website that was dedicated to proving the Celts were black.

The "Moors" who came with the Arab/Berber armies are depicted by those who make similar claims as Black Africans.

As I noted in my first post on this thread, the part of the African continent that was inhabited by blacks was almost entirely sub-Saharan.
Even today, the bulk of North Africa is populated by those of Berber, Arab, Greek, and Phoenician descent.

In the specific case of Greece, I would allow that there would be a small amount of genetic differences from ancient days to today. The debilitating wars in the peninsula could have caused drain on population growth and many of the original inhabitants (for example Helots) of the peninsula were not authorized or allowed to be soldiers/hoplites except in unusual circumstances. The property requirement may have resulted in a drain on the population growth of those who were allowed to fight and a means for the ones without citizenship to have more children reach adulthood.
There would of course be admixtures from Slavs and others.
Having said that, we need to get away from claiming that todays Greeks are different in substance from ancient Greeks. It has no historical basis and let’s look to what we can glean from DNA results. That will give us the best idea of what is what.

The whole Macedonian name thing is, in my opinion, going nowhere. It brings out such raw emotions. Though we know that there were [never] really any hard borders defining one people/tribe from another in Europe, we don't have Slavic peoples moving en masse anywhere near that far South at that time.
Slavic peoples have contributed great things and don’t need to reach back and lay claims to the work of others to justify themselves.
Again, let’s look to see what we can agree on in the middle and learn from DNA testing results.

I have slightly altered my opinion and now lean towards the ancient Macedonians still as being mostly Dorian Greeks, but with some admixture from other Balkans peoples of the time. I could very well be wrong here, but we come here to learn.
I get the feeling that we want to deny anything that goes against what we want the truth to be and put emphasis only on things that totally support what we want. At some point we need a compromise that Macedonian can mean slightly different peoples depending on the time period about which we are speaking.

 

[iapetoc]

Well to inform you all
THE PROBLEM STARTS IN 1876.
when the turks knew they lost area the sell everything and went away,
for cheap prices,
that make people the buy land and move in area,
in 1880-90 schools were allowed to build,
schools were build via 2;1 greek bulgarian and also romanian !!!!! in south makedonia,
by a rich roman with many hectars,
in 1912 people were confused from 4 languages, when language is nationality ata that time,
after the war came 2nd WW and a big kids transfer and exile ffrom and for the communist party,
if you visit Hungaria you realize that,
now a part of greeks lived in aother areas,
for example Monasterion (bitola) has 40 000 refuges in greece in balkans war and Greek had no one that time,
that is the region why demanding lands stoped from Fyrom. cause they will give more than they take,
same happened with bulgaria,
greeks from phillipopolis and burgs came greece, but the bulgarian accept none in their lands, simply they sent them to fyrom,
besides santasky is a bulgar,

about ancient times,
according to history myrmidons who were thracians moved north and helped makednos (both myrmidos and makednos sons of hercules)
look at that mycenean in south, mysian at troy, moesian in north thrace but were else?
myceene ->maceente ->makedonia
the makedonians of olymp and west south makedonia push thracians tribe pieri to east to strymon, and later change name to maedi pieri push bithyni and they went east to minor asia,
besides makedonians also pushed Vrygoi ->phrygians and they left,
PELLA cames from the epirotan Pellas means old, as pelias pelion etc, AS THE MOUNT PELLION,
Δεδιοκται τοις πελασιν said alexander in india for the old makedonians to return home,
besides there is city named Balla in pieria which belong to makedonians,
the makedonians conquer all and most of central ans west makedonia and later visaltia,
The GREEK MAKEDONIA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ROMAN MAKEDONIA,
cause in roman makedonia are parts of Paeones (thrasian tribe) and Dardanoi (iilyrothracian tribe)
in many map i saw there are mistakes,
for example paiones lived near and north of axios-bardar iron gates, besides paeonian and maedi had similar thracian-grecothracian with east makedonian,
in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
we have the makedonian language before koine which is primary greek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

now slavomakedonians have no common with that languge,
cause its total Greek 90% and has its own aeolic and thracian dialect,

Now st Paul names makedon cuase it total logical from taursus (turk-us) to say according romans province, besides the man was turk-hebrew,
when i go to bosna i go see bosnians not serbs or bulgarians,
BUT THAT DOESN@T MAKE BULGARIANS NOT SLAVS
if you GO TO TEXAS THEN YOU SEE TEXANS, DOES THAT MEANS THE NYRKERS ARE NOT AMERICANS?????
for any existing god shake,
BESIDES MAKEDONIANS WORSHIP DRU OAK TREE AND GOATS, LIKE DRYOP PEOPLE
NOT GODDES MARA !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Elias2]

What I find really ironic is that of all the ancient peoples in the balkans, we have the most information about the greeks, not the illyrians and peanoians(sp.), yet we still have a discussion on who were really greek or not Pakistan as the same right to call themselves macedonians as do the people of FYROM, based on the grounds our 'macedonian' friend is giving, tf you live in a region conquered by alexander or phillip, you have the right to be called macedonian.

As Macimo stated earlier, greece has always been a melting pot of different peoples, the greek identity has never been about ethnicity but about culture. The macedonians were hellenized peoples, this is a fact. They did what they did in the name of hellenism. So for me, to call yourself macedonian, or contemporary terminology as greek, you need to be hellenic. Would there be such a big fuss is the slavic people of fyrom spoke greek? no of course not. But there is alot of contemporary political issues involved in this that stems from the balkan wars, and not from 300 B.C.

 

[how yes no 2]

Well to inform you all
BESIDES MAKEDONIANS WORSHIP DRU OAK TREE AND GOATS, LIKE DRYOP PEOPLE
NOT GODDES MARA !!!!!!!!!!!

I do not want to argue whether Dorians were really of same origin as other Greeks, as they seems to have been dominantly R1a (and maybe some I2a2 and G) while original ancient Greeks were most likely J2 (with hellenized E-V13)....

but worship of oak tree is very Slavic thing... in fact in day before Christmas you will see in Serbia custom of burning branches of oak tree which is most likely related to symbolical depart from old oak tree related religion in order to accept christianity....

According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav, Yav being the material world, Nav the immaterial, and Prav being the laws that govern them. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the World Tree. Slavs imagined that all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion


btw. this makes me wonder of relation between Celtic and Slavic people...
as I just figured out that word druid is about the one who sees into oak tree, which would in fact mean that it is the person that has access to all three realms: material, imaterial, and to laws that govern first 2 realms...

druid
An ancient Celtic priest or soothsayer. Compounded of daru-, dru, "oak", and wid-, "know"; hence literally meaning "they who know the oak"; so called with reference to their practices with mistletoe.

http://wordinfo.info/unit/677/ip:5/il:d

Slavic related words to dru and wid
'drvo' = tree
'vid' = vision, to see

 

[DejaVu]

Mr analphabet and fake Greek (Thomas15n) link to the evidence you just posted. Never heard anything about existence of white race DNA. What DNA is Greek? No link = missing evidence.

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)




Javan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javan
Javan (Hebrew יָוָן, Standard Hebrew Yavan, Tiberian Hebrew Yāwān) was the fourth son of Noah's son Japheth according to the "Table of Nations" (Genesis chapter 10) in the Hebrew Bible. Flavius Josephus states the traditional view that this individual was the ancestor of the Greek people.
Also serving as the Hebrew name for Greece or Greeks in general, Yavan or (Tiberian) Yāwān (יָוָן) is probably cognate with the name of the eastern Greeks, the Ionians (Greek Iōnes, earlier Ia(w)ones). The Greek race has been known by cognate names throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and beyond—even in Sanskrit (yavana). In Greek mythology, the eponymous forefather of the Ionians is similarly called Ion, a son of Apollo.
Javan is also found in apocalyptic literature in the Book of Daniel, 8:21-22 and 11:2, in reference to the King of Greece (יון)—most commonly interpreted as a reference to Alexander the Great.
While Javan is generally associated with the ancient Greeks and Greece (cf. Gen. 10:2, Dan. 8:21, Zech. 9:13, etc.), his sons (as listed in Genesis 10) are usually associated with locations in the Northeastern Mediterranean Sea and Anatolia: Elishah (modern Cyprus), Tarshish (modern southern Turkey), Kittim (modern Cyprus), and Dodanim (alt. 1 Chron. 1:7 'Rodanim,' the island of Rhodes, west of modern Turkey between Cyprus and the mainland of Greece).

When someone conquers a land of other people is he not king of that land?
Where is it mentioned Alexander III Macedon was Greek?, but only king of Javan (Grecia).
What did the Hebrews mean when they wrote Javan (Grecia) in that time?

And who was the King of Modern and Fake Greece?, a German from Bavaria a non-Greek king who was the King of Greece. All are not Greeks in todays Greece.

Otto of Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece
Otto, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek: Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodanim
Dodanim or Rodanim, (דודנים), (Greek: Ρόδιοι) was, in the Book of Genesis, a son of Javan (thus, a great-grandson of Noah). He is usually associated with the people of the island of Rhodes as their progenitor. "-im" is a plural suffix in Hebrew, and the inhabitants of Rhodes were also called Rodanim or Dodanim. Traditional Hebrew manuscripts are split between the spellings Dodanim and Rodanim — one of which is probably a copyist's error, as the Hebrew letters for R and D are nearly identical. The Samaritan Pentateuch has Rodanim.
They have also been connected with the Trojan Dardanoi. The Dodanim were considered either kin to the Greeks or simply Greeks. Dodanim was the son of Javan, and his brothers were Elishah, Tarshish and Chittim.
In Pseudo-Philo (c. 70), Dodanim's sons are Itheb, Beath, and Phenech; the last of these is made prince of the Japhethites at the time of the Tower of Babel.

Trojans And Dardanians are Greeks?, or are they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiras
Tiras was, according to Genesis 10 and Chronicles 1, the last-named son of Japheth who is otherwise unmentioned in the Hebrew Bible. According to the Book of Jubilees, the inheritance of Tiras consisted of four large islands in the ocean.
Josephus wrote that Tiras became ancestor of the "Thirasians" (Thracians). These were the first fair-haired people mentioned in antiquity according to Xenophanes, and were later known as the Getae according to historians beginning with Herodotus (4.93, 5.3). Tiras or Tyras in antiquity was also the name of the Dniester river, and of a Greek colony situated near its mouth.
Some, including Noah Webster, have suggested that Tiras was worshiped by his descendants as Thor, the god of thunder, equating both these forms with the Θουρος (Thouros) mentioned by Homer as the "Ares (Mars) of the Thracians". The Icelandic saga Prose Edda names Thor (or Tror) as a fair-haired chieftain ancestral to the Germanic peoples, and a king of Thrace.

Thracians are Greeks? Archeologists have found Greek language inscriptions on coins from Thracians as they have with Macedonian coins but no Greek mention that.

If we belive in this then the Greeks are same as Thracians, Trojans, Dardanians and many more. This is against the evidence or believes of todays scholars.

 

[iapetoc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope

want more the burning of woods to warm new born jesus is also in greece, reach until thessaly, but orthodox church forbids it as non christian,
dryope means hole
dry the oak
oph is a hole but also something that let you see in

about dorians
it happened in 800 BC after myrmidons, and makedonian
hercules son of temenos went north to find his people, to thessaly born makednos myrmidos etc
then his sons sons went back,
THAT IS THE REASON THAT 1 OF 2 KINGS MUST BE DORIAN AND 1 ACHAIC,
CAUSE DORIANS IS THE RETURNS OF TEMENIDS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenids

Dorians named after Doris the city
besides Dory spear not dori comes from drys
the similarity of burning trees from athens and north has to do with the passage of driopes,
cause dryopes past to minor asia via athenes, and another group went to epirus,
they speak aetolian, common with makedonian,
The makedonians pushed and conguer thracians tribes but they also had thracians among them as paysants etc,

BUT YOU DID ANSWER ME ABOUT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

is any of these words similar to skopje people????????
I quess not
cause makedonians Speak Makedonian subaeolian dialect of Greeks,
the 3 thracian approach has to do J I and E
were J2 exists we have greco-thrasian,
were I exist we have slavo-thracian
were E exists we have illyro-daco-thracian,
i Repeat that thracian is the same with Tyrrshenian ->thyrssenian rr-> thrysenian->1 thracian 2 phrygian

besides gaetto dacian - thracian
today are not recognized by bulgars cause for propaganda reasons

watch that about phrygian lingua
Galatian and Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

as you see the grecothracians tribes were totally homogenized to greek koine,
daco-gaete to romano-latin
and the rest to slavo-thracian

besides greek bull
bolinthros from boltavr
today tayros and bous vus
bulg
bol
does that means that bulgarians are greeks or the fyrom are greeks?
no way its IE
but relation to sound and other words connects more Fyrom to bulgaria and not ancient makedonia.

before 1912 and at 1940 these people were caled buggari in some greek areas,
meaning that local people knew more than we did,

 

[iapetoc]

you are wrong i said many times thoukidides sais that before archaic athenes spoked thyrrsenian, -thracian, but from many lexicon i read the thracian greek is almost similar with koine, same roots different pronounse,
the fact that greeks used koine to communicate it was 1 first attempt to unite dialects,
among them the subaeolian makedonia dialect,
so tell me no one mentions that