Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

DejaVu,

We've already been talking about how Greek the Ionians are based on their Y-DNA, have you been following? Basically, it seems that their concentrations are more contiguous with Southern Greeks than they are with Turks. Notice the levels of J1 (too low for Turks) and E1b (too high for Turks) in particular. The missing piece of the puzzle to be completely certain that they are very Greek as opposed to having significant Anatolian input are the relative concentrations of their R1b subclades. It's looking to me like they do have an Anatolian input, but not so significant to be able to say that they aren't principally Greek by background.

And what's the deal with citing language? That's not what we're talking about here, and it doesn't prove much. Of course Greek is Indo-European, and of course they've adopted some words from Turkish (and probably vice-versa). Greeks and Turks are right next to each other, after all.
 
DejaVu,

We've already been talking about how Greek the Ionians are based on their Y-DNA, have you been following? Basically, it seems that their concentrations are more contiguous with Southern Greeks than they are with Turks. Notice the levels of J1 (too low for Turks) and E1b (too high for Turks) in particular. The missing piece of the puzzle to be completely certain that they are very Greek as opposed to having significant Anatolian input are the relative concentrations of their R1b subclades. It's looking to me like they do have an Anatolian input, but not so significant to be able to say that they aren't principally Greek by background.

And what's the deal with citing language? That's not what we're talking about here, and it doesn't prove much. Of course Greek is Indo-European, and of course they've adopted some words from Turkish (and probably vice-versa). Greeks and Turks are right next to each other, after all.

The guessing game is over. Where is the DNA found of Ionians? Can you link to the site where it have been found? If not dont even bother writing anything about it. HG J1 is from Arabs that settled or raped the inhabitants in Greece. The Ottoman Empire was not only Turkish, it also included others like Arabs and many more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
 
Except the greek genocide was 100 years ago not 700. The progrom of constantinople happened in the 50's

Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?

the cyprus issue

Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.


the threats of war if greece ever impliments its 12 km water boarder that it has the right to do, or the turkish war planes that fly over greek islands almost daily.

Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).
 
Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?



Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.




Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).

it is not 15 people,
15 people is the 'official'

about 250 000 expelt from Polis,
my fathers say about using small knifes and attack at the but, they never attack him, for he was famous due to football,
but all his friends had wounds at their buts,
besides how you are sure that greeks bombed Kemal house,
the area is considered relic and about 5-8 houses around there are from 1900 and do not re[lace them,
what about if it was a Turkish provoke?
or even a bigger one,
remember that after 1-2 years we have the strange of the Greek king bitten by monkey, but his bodyguard shot,
and the poison of sofocles Venizelos,
so surely if it was not Turkish provoke it was a Big force action
 
DEjavu

so if Greeks speak with words like Dobro meso telece maiko tatko yentan and change name to -ic or -ov then they will be Greeks?

you are funny,

if your grand father change language to slavic, and followed dusan or Cimeon that does mean that All Makedonians do the same,
 
The guessing game is over. Where is the DNA found of Ionians? Can you link to the site where it have been found? If not dont even bother writing anything about it. HG J1 is from Arabs that settled or raped the inhabitants in Greece. The Ottoman Empire was not only Turkish, it also included others like Arabs and many more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

The main source is King, et al, see archaiocapilos, he has been pretty good in compiling these. To be clear, King, et al doesn't exactly provide us with Ionian-specific Y-DNA with subclades in a way that would make us entirely clear about them.

I doubt J1 in Turkey is entirely from Arabs, but the spread of J1 is a good point against what I was saying. The E1b is still a sticking point though, and I still say we need R1b subclades to know more.
 
The main source is King, et al, see archaiocapilos, he has been pretty good in compiling these. To be clear, King, et al doesn't exactly provide us with Ionian-specific Y-DNA with subclades in a way that would make us entirely clear about them.

I doubt J1 in Turkey is entirely from Arabs, but the spread of J1 is a good point against what I was saying. The E1b is still a sticking point though, and I still say we need R1b subclades to know more.


there is enough J1 in cucas that reach >60 in some areas and is not Semitic
 
Yeah, a terrible massacre, right. About 15 people died. More people die everyday from traffic accident in a country like Turkey. And the pogrom was caused by the bombing of Atatürk's birthplace in Greece the day before. Is that your reason to hate the Turks today ? Frankly, 15 people ?

The death toll of the greek genocide was between 250,000 to 350,000 people, not 15.

The bombing of Attaturks house was done by a turk with the goal to incite violence against the greeks in con/polios and drive them out. It was all planned;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Pogrom

At the same time of this violence against the greeks in con/polis, the turkish minority in thrace wasn't harmed. The two populations avoided the population exchange between the two countries after WW1 as said by the treaty of lousianne.



Cyprus isn't Greece. Anyway things have been rather quiet there for 2 or 3 decades.

Cyrpus isn't greece but has greeks in it. Things have only been quiet because you don't read cypriot news. Cyprus has been at the end of continual threats of war from turkey due to maritime boundaries and natural gas resources. Turkey doesn't recognize Cyprus as a seperate country has have 40 thousand troops in the northern occupied parts.


Are you kidding me ? Can you imagine Turkey declaring war on an EU member state ? That's just blabber intended as intimidation. I think that both sides, Greek and Turkish, are to be blamed for their poor relations. From outside it looks like a playground quarrel. It's highly political and I don't see why ordinary Greeks and Turks should (still) hate each others.

Allow me to give another example on why greeks don't look at turks very kindly. The patriach Bartholomew, who is a turkish citizen, is the "pope" of not just greeks but every orthodox person. He is forced to have 24 hours protection and his conplex in Constantinopolis has high fences with bared wire because he receives constant death threat and actual assassination attempts from turkish fanatics. This tradition of the patriarch has been around since christianity started yet turks don't respect him or his position and what he stands for.

Do you realise how childish some Greek members on this forum look like ? It's impossible to have a peaceful, rational discussion about Greek DNA here. I think only the Spaniards here are worse in this regard (and I had to ban a few to calm things down - or possibly the same guy, who quickly created yet another account as soon as the offending trio was banned).

Go ahead and ban me if you think I'm being childish because I don't want to be classified as a turk. I am not a turk, my parents were not turks, nor my grandparents. They came from a classical greek region that doesn't exist anymore due to war and ethnic "purging" of christians in asia minor during ww1.
 
As you all can see there is no Greeks only adopted identity by other people who became Modern Greeks. What the modern Greeks did when exchanged the people with Turkey? Same people with other faith that was exchanged.

Conclusion: Modern Greeks are not Ancient Greeks.


"The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

  • Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (called Pomaks)
  • Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
  • Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
  • Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
  • Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
  • Jews: ca. 75,000
  • Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims
In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

There, I highlighted for you the real macedonians of macedonia in 1911.
 
Cyprus case is ancient that goes to the times of Myth,

Arcado-Cypriots who dwell the Greece are older than History, besides Greek that devastate to cyprus is a well known Historical,

Both population belong to wider meaning Hellenick nation, although each has its own line route.
there are many areas where Greeks as a wider meaning exist,

It is not a lie to say that some areas have recon Greek id with another one,

for example italy has plenty Greeks, but they are recognised as local, they live in a democratic country, and all are Italian citizens, they follow the line route of Italy,
these people are considered in wider Greek nation as also In Italian but only in Italian state,
Italy is not declining the origin, so everything is near ok
These people lived and live in Italy so their Genes belong to Italian peninsula, by land model,
and the their state officially recons an ancient Greek population so it is ok,
so the model of land origin gives correct data,
but the Ionian Greeks moved devastate, and belong to Greece,
so the model of land origin might be correct giving the area, but a second model with added the genes that devastate gives better result in search for relatives, and a map of genes,
 
"The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

  • Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (called Pomaks)
  • Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
  • Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
  • Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
  • Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
  • Jews: ca. 75,000
  • Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims
In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

There, I highlighted for you the real macedonians of macedonia in 1911.

Time to refresh your sub-saharan memory

AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.



Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

Serbs
-
-
-

Bulgarians
-
-
-

Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

Turks and others
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.


Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.
 
yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

2 threads are for that case, so plz

no need to repeat again,

he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia
 
The death toll of the greek genocide was between 250,000 to 350,000 people, not 15.

What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

The bombing of Attaturks house was done by a turk with the goal to incite violence against the greeks in con/polios and drive them out. It was all planned;

Ok, I missed that part.

Cyrpus isn't greece but has greeks in it.

So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.


Allow me to give another example on why greeks don't look at turks very kindly. The patriach Bartholomew, who is a turkish citizen, is the "pope" of not just greeks but every orthodox person. He is forced to have 24 hours protection and his conplex in Constantinopolis has high fences with bared wire because he receives constant death threat and actual assassination attempts from turkish fanatics. This tradition of the patriarch has been around since christianity started yet turks don't respect him or his position and what he stands for.

You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.

Go ahead and ban me if you think I'm being childish because I don't want to be classified as a turk. I am not a turk, my parents were not turks, nor my grandparents. They came from a classical greek region that doesn't exist anymore due to war and ethnic "purging" of christians in asia minor during ww1.

I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?
 
macciamo,

the bond of Greeks with cyprus in before History,

I repeat the arcado-cypriots, the Cadmeians etc
and in Mycenae times the return for copper,

Both areas are considered in the wide meaning Greeks,
wider menaning is the same that you classify Franks as Germanic os others,

the Greeks is Family of nations, like the ones you call germanic Nations, and only the population of Greeks,
in fact it is difficult to give a name, so Greeks use the word wide, ευρεια ενοια
if we use use the word Hellenes, for the dwells of Greece, the the word Hellanic should included pop from italy cyprus ucraine etc
similar Germany and Germanic Nations,
austria is another state but we consider them Germanic Nation,
same is with Greeks,
according the Greek statistics the wide Nation is >30 000 000 while the greek from Greece is about 20 000 000
 
yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

2 threads are for that case, so plz

no need to repeat again,

he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia

80-90% Macedonians lived in the Region of Macedonia before occupation and partition and that was before any Greeks (brainwashed people and adopted new identity) existed. If you sub-saharans want to continue, do so, then its time to refresh your denying facts with reposts.
 
What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

"According to various sources the Greek death toll in the Pontus region of Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000. Estimates for the death toll of Anatolian Greeks as a whole are significantly higher.
According to the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples, between 1916 and 1923, up to 350,000 Greek Pontians were reportedly killed in massacres, persecution and death marches.[36] Merrill D. Peterson cites the death toll of 360,000 for the Greeks of Pontus.[37] According to George K. Valavanis "The loss of human life among the Pontian Greeks, since the Great War (World War I) until March 1924, can be estimated at 353,000, as a result of murders, hangings, and from punishment, disease, and other hardships."[38]
Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that "loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370."[39] Edward Hale Bierstadt states that "According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation.".[40] At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died."[41]"



Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.



So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.

Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.




You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.

Doesn't matter, I'm an athiest too, but the the majority of greeks who are not, he holds a significant religious and historical value, and for me, it's the latter.



I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?

I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.

I started this "rant" because you said you can't understand why there is tension between these two countries 700 years after the first conflict. I tried to explain to you how it is not about what happened 700 years ago but quite recently and still continuous, and gave examples. I hope I was somewhat informative.
 
What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

Sources? Modern Greeks dont need sources they rely on the fairytales. Maybe resurrection occured of Hercules and told the greeks about the information?
 
Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

"The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters, Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov. In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

"While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?
 
I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

"The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters, Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov. In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

"While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?

And what haplogroups are slavic or Bulgarian from that population? You want more reposts sub-saharan?
 
Krste Misirkov - The self-determination of the Macedonians, 1925!

The self-determination of the Macedonians

My article Macedonian Nationalism, which appeared in Mir on 12 March this year, aroused the ire of the paper “Svobodna rech”, which described me as “a man who still does not even know his own nationality”, a “simple-minded thinker who is capable of writing nonsense, of sinking even lower”, and who is “well-known for having once served in the Serbian propaganda service” and for lending his support to the theories of the Belgrade professor Cvjic concerning the existence of a separate Macedonian nationality”. As a result of these slanders against me in “Svobodna rech” many of my own townsfolk turned in fury upon me, and there were even some people who thoughtlessly claimed that they knew that in my student days I had attended assemblies of both the Bulgarian and the Serbian students and that this was why I had been driven out of the Bulgarian assemblies.
Similar senseless accusations were made in “Svobodna rech” and, as was only to be expected, these false rumors spread around Karlovo. This, however, did not greatly disturb me, as would have been clear to anyone who had read my article in “Mir” and who knew anything about my past… I knew full well that I would be attacked for my Macedonian Nationalism and that my article could certainly not be published in “Ilinden”. Nevertheless, although I was far from sure that it would be printed in “Mir”, I wrote out the article and sent it to this journal. And two days after it had appeared, “Svobodna rech” made me out to be a man who does not know his own nationality.
I was fully aware that I will be attacked for my “Macedonian nationalism”, that this article has no chance to be published in “Ilinden”, and I was not even sure that they will print it in “Mir”. I still wrote the article and sent it to the newspaper “Mir”. On the second day after its printing “Svobodna rech” named me a man that does not know his ethnicity.
Unfortunately “Svobodna rech” cannot make me give up my “lowly reasoning”. I still find that Macedonia today is butchered, that Greeks took their best parts, and have chased away the Macedonian population and replaced them with Asiatic new-comers that today are piled up next to the Serbian and Bulgarian border, the same as once the Byzantine Emperors were establishing next to the Bulgarian border military settlements of the Asiatic colonists: Armenians and Paulikians. I also find that if Serbs and Bulgarians do not find peace, and Macedonians are not included in voluntary cooperation with both Bulgarians and Serbs for safeguarding against the Greek wave that slowly, but surely moves from south toward north, all of us: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians will drown in the non-Slavic see that surrounds us from all sides. I think that only in agreement and cooperation between Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians is the salvation for all of us. Serbs and Bulgarians were fighting, Greeks and Romanians were profiting: they lost Macedonia, Trace and Dobrudza.
The most important condition for a cooperation between Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians, however, is the freedom of self-determination of Macedonians. And that is why, regarding this last issue, I emphasized the principle of the Macedonian patriotism and nationalism, as a fully neutral and satisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike; but for now it is more correct to say that it is equally unsatisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
Since it is primarily us Macedonians that are suffering from the Serb-Bulgarian conflict, it is our duty to search for means and ways of resolving that conflict. That is forcing us “to know” up to the current day our nationality and to tell both Serbs and Bulgarians: forget about your big-Serb and big-Bulgarian ideas, give up enforcing your nationalism and patriotism on us, since it basically is putting your interests up front instead of ours. Let us have our own understanding for our relations toward you and your conflict about us and our fatherland, as well as for the means that will bring us to a general South Slav benefit. Let us have our own Macedonian national feelings and to create Macedonian culture, as we did that during the ages when our fatherland was not part of the same state with yours.
As Macedonians we will be more useful for all: for Macedonia, for Bulgaria and for Serbia and in general for the whole South Slav community, than as Bulgarians and Serbs.
As a Bulgarian I would have said long time ago: What Macedonia! It is good for me here too. I don’t need to think for what is already lost. But as Macedonian, in Bulgaria I feel as in a foreign land, although between brothers, I’m not at home, in my fatherland. My fatherland is there, where I have been born and where I should leave my bones, where my son should go at least, if I am not allowed to go myself.
The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves been assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian stand point of view.
Uncompromising and unlimited love toward Macedonia, the constant thinking and working for the interests of Macedonia and the full conservativism in the manifestations of the Macedonian national spirit: the language, the national poetry, mentality and customs – those are the main characteristics of the Macedonian nationalism, demonstrated through “lowly reasonings of a man that still does not know his nationality”.
But we are not egoists. We don’t think only about ourselves. We are ready to make a good service to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but only if that service is voluntary and not forced.
How we can serve Serbs: we will all die, and we will not let the Greek foot to cross the current border of the Serb and Bulgarian Macedonia. But we will do that as Macedonians, and not as Serbs. We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.
That is the Macedonian national feeling, which is the historic call of every Macedonian that can be fulfilled only as a free and equal citizen of Yugoslavia, allowed to think and feel and talk and act as Macedonian.

K. Misirkov: The self-determination of Macedonians, “Mir”, 7427, 25. III 1925, 1.

Here is the real evidence who are Bulgarians and who are Macedonians. If you have problem with it sub-saharan seek help.
 

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