Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

[Vukodav]

A Vittorio questo qui è di sicuro o Dejan o Marco Sernesi. Mi ricordo che apri threads simili sulla fogna e Peyrol confermo la sua reale origine.

 

[patrizio22]

Hello, my family name is Brega and is present in Italy just in milan and Ancona, in central italy. I don't which one of the two it came from. I know it existed in Milan during the middle ages. But I have just found out that, outside of Italy, there are Brega in Moldova, which is one of the hotspots of J1 along with the area of Hungary (see map of J1 in Europe). So perhaps this may be a east european J1 route from the Middle east, perhaps medieval. During the middle ages current family name already existed. Is it an absurd explanation?

 

[Angela]

Patrizio 22: Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

That isn't how it works. The genes which code for "appearance" if that's what you mean by "traits" are in your autosomal dna; they aren't carried by your mtDna or yDna. Whatever you inherit from your mother in terms of autosomal inheritance comes from all of her ancestors, male and female, and the same is true for your father. Your mtDna and yDna ancestors are only two lines out of many.

Let's take a simple example. Let's say that a person has maternal ancestry from the Cape Verde Islands. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the people there have quite a bit of SSA admixture. It shows up in autosomal tests, and also shows up in "appearance". I once went to a Cape Verdean festival in Massachusetts, and you can clearly see it in these people. However, the mtDna of some of them might be a totally unremarkable mtDna "H" subclade common in Portugal. (Of course, it could also be mtDna L3) The SSA could have entered through the paternal ancestors of the mother, or could indeed have entered through a maternal line, but not the one represented by the mtDna. Do you see how it can work?

If you follow this link you can access a lot of "beginner's guides" to the whole subject of genetic genealogy. You might find them useful.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Beginners'_guides_to_genetic_genealogy

Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.

I take it you're not an afficionado of cheese? Have you ever heard of Roquefort, Manchego, or, if you're in a goat cheese mood, feta, chèvre (Bucheron), garrotxa...well, I could go on and on. Spain is actually the largest producer of sheep cheeses. Are you going to attribute it to J1 sheep herders? Bucheron is made in the Loire Valley, feta in, obviously, Greece. I'm not aware of any "Arabic" domination of those areas.

The goat, the sheep, and the cow were all domesticated in the Near East and were all brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers.
http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/r4_468.png

This is a paper on domesticated animals in the Early Neolithic in the Balkans:
http://www.academia.edu/4124374/Ani...y_Neolithic_of_the_Balkans_and_Central_Europe

Animal Herding in the Balkan Neolithic:
http://www.academia.edu/1517144/Herding_settlement_and_chronology_in_the_Balkan_Neolithic

Although there are nutritional pros and cons to the milk of all these animals, in one thing the cow has the others beat hands down, and that's in the total quantity of milk they can produce, which makes sense given the size differential. However, the downside is that they require a great deal of food, huge quantities of grass or hay or even better, grain. In certain parts of Europe that's just not to be had. Terrain and climate dictate what you grow and which animals you domesticate, the "terroir", or at least they did. That's why in rural Emilia there are more cows than people, but in Liguria and the Lunigiana people could only manage a cow or two for personal use, and sometimes not even that, and the vast majority of cheeses are made from either sheep's milk or goat's milk. Oh, and we don't have much J1 at all.

It's easy, in the beginning, without an understanding of the causes of certain economic paradigms or cultural manifestations, to draw false conclusions. For example, I recently read a post elsewhere where someone, after listening to some "Ashkenazi' music and some "Sicilian" music, saw some similarities between them and tried to use that as "proof" of gene sharing between them. This totally ignores the fact, as others pointed out, that cultural flow, particularly in the modern era, can have absolutely nothing to do with gene flow. More directly, if this person knew anything about European music, he would have known that the two pieces of music were both influenced by music forms created in eastern Europe. Do you know how much Italian "folk" music is set to mazurkas and polkas? Why, the older folks wouldn't be able to dance at summer festivals if all such music was removed from the program. *The same thing happened with the "jig". It was created or evolved in 16th century England. From there it spread to Ireland, France, Italy etc. (the French gigue, the Italian giga) This isn't proof of any gene flow or sharing between them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig

Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated.

What makes you think we don't recognize that this is all very complicated? See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...the-Fertile-Crescent?highlight=Post+Neolithic

As for the yDna of the Neolithic, you might want to read Iain Mathiesen et al, which shows that the Anatolian farmers carried various yDna clades, even if the majority were G2a. That doesn't mean there was only one Neolithic wave, necessarily. J2 and the immediate precursor to E-V13 suddenly show up in Europe in the mid-Neolithic.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

*Ah, I forgot all the songs based on the German waltz. It's all called ballo liscio in Italian, if anyone is interested, dances (and songs) based on waltzes, mazurkas and polkas. Later on, tangos were added, and there was no mass migration of Argentinians to account for it.

 

[patrizio22]

Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.

 

[Angela]

Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.

Perhaps also music?

I hope indeed that you're a beginner...we don't take kindly here to people with multiple accounts or people pretending to be someone that they aren't.

 

[patrizio22]

Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye

 

[RobertColumbia]

Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye

Welcome! Please do stay and learn more. Not having a university degree isn't a problem as long as you keep learning!

 

[patrizio22]

Thank you to anyone for your help. I had a look back along this thread and saw that when I mentioned a chart appearing on Eupedia instead of writing "I don't know whether the chart is reliable" (because it was taken from some source) i wrote "I found this on Eupedia, I don't know whether is reliable". I do apologize to anyone, it was just a stupid mistake, perhaps that's why I was taken for a *****.

 

[Hauteville]

Il progetto di Ethnopedia ? amatoriale ma ? fatto in maniera molto accurata.
Ethnopedia's project is amatorial but it's quite accurate.

 

[Vukodav]

Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).

 

[anthropico]

Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).

Ethnopedia checked the origins of all samples (more than 600) and stored every single surname, haplogroup, deepest subclade known and grandfather's place of birth (due to the recent migration of southerners in north Italy).
Regions which have less than 20 samples such as Valle d'Aosta are not shown in the maps.

 

[Angela]

J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista.org/template/files/template/genitaly.html

Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

 

[Hauteville]

Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

I'm just fan of Ethnopedia page on Facebook but i know one of the admins. I'll ask to him.

 

[patrizio22]

A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

 

[Angela]

If you don't mind my asking, how did you get access to the registry records? In my experience they're never digitized or on line. It would be very good for Italians of the diaspora if they've starting to do that.

Using the parish records can take you very far back indeed, all the way to the time of the Council of Trent or, in some places, even further. However, it can jump from parish to parish, as I'm sure you know, since marriages are usually registered in the church of the bride. None of it is computerized, to my knowledge, so I'm afraid tracing your family tree back in time won't be able to be done with a letter to the parish priest of one parish. If you really want it done, you'll have to spend your vacations in Italy doing it.

Still, I don't think that this would answer your ultimate question since you're interested in very ancient origins. As some members have already told you, without much more ancient dna, very refined by sub-clade, there are lots of possibilities.

Just parenthetically, yes, port cities have always been more cosmopolitan. However, eastern Liguria, which has always been a trading center, has very little J1. The same applies to Venezia, the biggest port on the Adriatic. On the other hand, you have a bit in the mountains of Piemonte, and inland places in the Balkans and even up toward central Europe. Or, look at E-V13. There's a lot, relatively speaking, in the Tirol and southern Germany. Y dna is very subject to founder effect and drift. Sometimes, one line just gets lucky.

Or, look at the recent results from the ancient dna from Britain, discussed on a thread on this Board.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Gladiator-and-Anglo-Saxon?p=474629#post474629

We have a yDna J2 all the way in York who "fits" somewhere south of modern Palestinians and Jordanians and north of Saudis autosomally. (West African SSA and perhaps some SA seems to have changed the picture in the Middle East since his time) Yet I'm sure that J2 British men, if some can be found who match him, will be indistinguishable from other Brits.

I know some men are very attached indeed to their yDna, but it's only one among many ancestors. We have a J2 mesolithic Karelian, a J2 from the mid-to-late Neolithic, J2's from the Bronze Age and on and on, and they are, or will be found to be, different autosomally.

We clearly have more J2 and J1 in Italy (in all of Southern Europe, actually). Without detailed sub-clade information from ancient dna, however, we can't know to which migration to assign it and how much autosomal impact each wave might have had. After all, both Neolithic and post Neolithic migrants from the southeast or Anatolia would have carried Ancient Anatolian farmer dna, and at some point CHG ancestry. It's going to be tricky.
They're going to have to compare samples both pre-and-post every major wave of migration. That's going to be difficult in some eras because some cultures in Italy practiced cremation. Then, people buried in elite burials might have been very different from the commoners.

Even getting a good sample is going to be difficult. The bones in museums have been handled so often, for so many centuries, that they're very contaminated. Also, not many of them are complete skulls, and from the information provided by the authors of the British study, the results are most accurate if taken from the petrous bone behind the ear, or lacking that, the teeth. It's no coincidence that much of this very good dna we're seeing tested is from "fresh" finds.

Assigning "native" versus "foreign" status is also going to be difficult in an era like the Roman one, for example, since both occupied various positions on the social scale, and it seems that the original "Anatolian farmer" and MN people may have survived much better in southern Europe.

Some abstracts indicate there's going to be a lot of results being announced relatively soon. I'm personally very impatient to get results, particularly from any Etruscan or Roman remains. I owe it to my father to try to prove we're related to them!

I just hope the authors used the latest tools, like the ones used by the Schiffels team. Unfortunately, I think the Reich lab is busy with other things.

 

[anthropico]

Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

25% of the men with J1 didn't give their clade because they don't know it.
Among the 75% of the men which gave their clades, 88% has P58 or its downstream subclades.

 

[Sile]

A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back

 

[Angela]

online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back

That's incorrect. It very much depends on the region. The Veneto is not all of Italy.


Ed. I should qualify that. My own tree was done in Italy a number of years ago by a great uncle. However, from what many Italian-Americans tell me, their town's records are only available online if the Mormon church or some private individual scanned them and put them online.

I'm going to check my own area when I have time and see if it's gone on line.

 

[Sile]

A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

Post me privately on the region you are from in Italy and the period in time you require and I will send you the free online link to your records from that region

 

[patrizio22]

Some americans from Serra San Quirico (AN) posted microfilms of the registry office of the village (Anagrafe). The dates go back to 1866. The registy office of the province of Ancona has documents back to the mid 19th. They're not useful because I know ancestors up to the early 19th or the end of the 18th. Parishes in that area may have documents until the 16th. I'm waiting for an answer from the parish, if there's one. The rest, yes, it is wishful thinking. I'm just having a look at both sides, last name and y chromosome. I'm just one of those cooks, nurses or sales administrators who had a dna test. We may be quite anal. If, as you say there's going to be many developments, I look forward to hearing some news.