Your physical idea of what Yamnayans look-like.

[halfalp]

Hi people ! I'm pretty sure that a lot of same topics exists, but i'm gonna try a new. I think its pretty interesting how people imagine physical appareance of ancestral people, and if one subject is very interessting is the yamna ( indo-europeans ) one. Some think they where nordics, depigmented mediterraneans, others think they where pigmented mediterraneans, or iranians, mongoloido-caucasoid, caucasians... We found a lot of terms. So, i think they where physical a sort of melting-pot of Caucasus people, Cro-magnons from the east with mongoloids traits and short mediterranids one. The so callled proto-europid, is very difficult to materialised because, a lot of different physical traits can involved in, and yamna was clearly a multi-ethnique civilization. I choose two images, of two men, that for me reflect a physical pattern that i see in Caucasus, Albania, Balkans, East europe and Irlande. This man is Aidan Quinn, Irish actor, the fascinate thing about is face, is the eyes shape, i see here, in switzerland a lot of albanians or yugoslavians ( large sens ) totally ressemble to him.This one is Tommy Wiseau, american realisator, with Eastern Bloc origin ( we dont know where, but my think is Lituania ). Like the previous, he's got an face, that can be found in modern Albania, they way the eyes look like they curved... If you are interested, you can also, show your representation of YOUR yamnayan people. This topic is not supposed to be serious, just fun, for people who like observed humans physical traits.

 

[Fire Haired14]

No idea. There's no way they had mongoloid traits because they had no or little Eastern Asian ancestry.

Non-Slavic Russians today are mutts. They have lots of mainland European EEF and WHG and they have lots of Siberian. They do have the most Yambyaish blood bit not enough to say they're good proxies.

Sycthian art is best place to look for how yamnya may have looked. Sycthians art depicts ordinary European or maybe just west Eurasian or maybe just human people.

 

[LeBrok]

No idea. There's no way they had mongoloid traits because they had no or little Eastern Asian ancestry.

Non-Slavic Russians today are mutts. They have lots of mainland European EEF and WHG and they have lots of Siberian. They do have the most Yambyaish blood bit not enough to say they're good proxies.

Sycthian art is best place to look for how yamnya may have looked. Sycthians art depicts ordinary European or maybe just west Eurasian or maybe just human people.

I agree, there are no good proxies today to make an educated guess.
Certainly though, their facial features still persist through populations, especially Northern Europeans, because their genes still live in us.

 

[halfalp]

People, physical traits has nothing to do with genetic, i mean, by the time, all the genetic coming from far east or siberia has been diluted in the new population, but eyes, noses, craniums... are all pictures of our past. Personnally, i am 100% swiss for a very long time, and people think i'm albanian or turkish... Physical traits dont lie, there is no coincidence by the ressemblance of amerindians ( without evident mongoloid traits ) with modern afghan people, for exemple. When i look scandinavians, i can tell who has european archaic features, or mongoloid features, or middle eastern features. Ibrahimovic is swedish, but since my childhood, i know that he is not swedish in a physical way. By the way, i have create this topic, because i think the academic papers war of this site is very oppressive, but maybe i'm the only one to think it.

 

[Milan.M]

People, physical traits has nothing to do with genetic, i mean, by the time, all the genetic coming from far east or siberia has been diluted in the new population, but eyes, noses, craniums... are all pictures of our past. Personnally, i am 100% swiss for a very long time, and people think i'm albanian or turkish... Physical traits dont lie, there is no coincidence by the ressemblance of amerindians ( without evident mongoloid traits ) with modern afghan people, for exemple. When i look scandinavians, i can tell who has european archaic features, or mongoloid features, or middle eastern features. Ibrahimovic is swedish, but since my childhood, i know that he is not swedish in a physical way. By the way, i have create this topic, because i think the academic papers war of this site is very oppressive, but maybe i'm the only one to think it.

Right in my opinion the genes (people) adopt to environment,not straight forward but with time of course but different migrations bring different appearance.That's the case with every other species they adopt in environemnt they live in,to many their color is a camouflage or resemble the environment they live in.
As for Ibrahimovic he is close to typical Dinaric Slav.

 

[Fire Haired14]

People, physical traits has nothing to do with genetic,...

I agree if what you're saying is not all physical traits can be attributed to a single population/genetic cluster/whatever you want to call it. Yamnaya wasn't pure and wasn't unrelated to Europeans' other ancestors which makes it more difficult to pin point Yamnaya traits.

Yamnaya itself was a mixture of at least three populations; WHG, ANE, CHG. The other ancestors of Europeans had WHG and some had CHG.

 

[Yetos]

Right in my opinion the genes (people) adopt to environment,not straight forward but with time of course but different migrations bring different appearance.That's the case with every other species they adopt in environemnt they live in,to many their color is a camouflage or resemble the environment they live in.
As for Ibrahimovic he is close to typical Dinaric Slav.

with or without his nose?

 

[Milan.M]

with or without his nose?

With his "nose"

 

[halfalp]

I agree if what you're saying is not all physical traits can be attributed to a single population/genetic cluster/whatever you want to call it. Yamnaya wasn't pure and wasn't unrelated to Europeans' other ancestors which makes it more difficult to pin point Yamnaya traits.

Yamnaya itself was a mixture of at least three populations; WHG, ANE, CHG. The other ancestors of Europeans had WHG and some had CHG.

By the way, for you ANE population were not " Mongoloids " ? What i mean its that, you can have a population with 20% western european and 80% far east asiatiac people and 50% of the population gonna look european. In the pictures that i put, you can see caucasian origin, with caucasus and a little something from somwhere. Plus, dont forget that yamna was clearly a meta-population in the women sight, i think its the most ancestral culture who shows the most varier MTDNA haplogroups. So i know that haplogroups doesnt tell us, the physical caracteristics of the people, but it has to take in count, that sons take most part of their father, and girls from their mother. Like the perfect Sungir exemple.

 

[Tomenable]

Morph made from several reconstructions:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/printthread.php?t=37860&pp=10&page=2

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/aphetor/yamnaya.jpg

According to Kurts 1984 (p. 90), there were at least 3 main anthropological types among the Yamnaya:

Type 1) - "Dolichocephalic individuals, with broad faces of medium height"

Type 2) - "More robust elements with high and wide faces of the Proto-Europoid type"

Type 3) - "More gracile individuals with narrow and high faces of the East Mediterranean type"

He also wrote: "The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race."

They were also tall (average male height was 175,5 cm). Average Mesolithic EHG male was 173,2 cm.

 

[Fire Haired14]

By the way, for you ANE population were not " Mongoloids " ? What i mean its that, you can have a population with 20% western european and 80% far east asiatiac people and 50% of the population gonna look european. In the pictures that i put, you can see caucasian origin, with caucasus and a little something from somwhere.

It isn't that simple. In a mixed population almost everyone has features from each ancestor. Mixed populations create their own new look. Latin Americans are the best example of a multi-racial population in the world. Mexicans have equal amounts of Spanish and Amerinidan blood. Many don't look Spanish or Amerindian. More look Amerindian than Spanish. This is why in opinion it's difficult to discover what features in modern Europeans are Yamnaya or not.

 

[halfalp]

And we dont know if Type 2 was dolicho, meso or brachy ? Of course mixed population create their own look, thats why, i tried to synthetize, what a fusion with gracile, robust and central asian / caucasus amerindian ( with or without mongoloid features ) looks like. So i know that some of you think R1b came from iran or at least transcaucasia, i think that R1b was stationed from Ciscaucasia trought far east in central asia. By the way the physical reproduction of Yamnayans, are pretty strange but also very interesting, with a lot look like some ancient romans stereotypes. Maybe, more interesting could be physical features of Samara and Seroglazovo cultures for the eastern region and early Bug-Dniester culture for the western region. It could also being interesting if the data exist to make a synthesis with the 3 physical types of yamna, their haplogroupes, their autosomal DNA, the location of the graves ( western or eastern part of pontic steppe ) wich type of burials...

 

[LeBrok]

By the way, for you ANE population were not " Mongoloids " ? What i mean its that, you can have a population with 20% western european and 80% far east asiatiac people and 50% of the population gonna look european.

I don't thinks so. Could you give us an example of such population.

but it has to take in count, that sons take most part of their father, and girls from their mother.

Especially penis and vegina. What physical characteristics are encoded in Y DNA? You must know something we don't.

People, physical traits has nothing to do with genetic,

Really? Oh, because god makes people to his likeness?

 

[halfalp]

Like 200 millions white and 50 millions black people give 100% metis ( black ) people ? Or modern central asia who has a majority of caucasian R1a and R1b but a majority of mongoloid traits ? Genetic has to be contextualized, maybe you dont know but men and women dont have the same physical traits, women skulls, especially crania, are smaller than men ones. Remember that women, in our history, is the socle of interbreeding, the mtdna haplogroups dispersal are here for remember us that.

 

[halfalp]

By the way. this not look familiar to you ? The second one is Anthony Hopkins, welsh actor, for who dont know.

 

[halfalp]

This one clearly shows some paleo-siberians, mongoloid features.

 

[Valerius]

Most of the Yamnaya people were Proto-Europids which is a Cromagnoid with dark hair and dark eyes which was something like a mediterranean
type with wide face and minor mongoloid traits. This type is almost extinct today. Most of the modern Europeans look like the pre-indo-european people of old Europe. I think it's possible that the so-called Alpine type could be a more recent reduced "derivate" from the original because this type matches geographically to the expansion of the Indo-Europeans in Europe and also matches pigmentation but this type exist in none-european people so there could be different sources of this phenotype.

 

[Tomenable]

Some individual reconstructions (not only from Yamnaya, also related Early IE cultures):

 

[Tomenable]

And some more:

This one clearly shows some paleo-siberians, mongoloid features.

Is that a Bronze Age one or an Iron Age one, though?

AFAIK Siberian admixture shows up only in Iron Age samples from the Steppe, not in Bronze Age ones.

 

[halfalp]

And some more:

Is that a Bronze Age one or an Iron Age one, though?

AFAIK Siberian admixture shows up only in Iron Age samples from the Steppe, not in Bronze Age ones.

Nice pictures ! I think this is an Eastern Yamnayans reconstruction, so copper age trought bronze age. But away the admixture, who dont tell us about physical traits. There is clearly east asians haplogroups ( C,Z ) west of the ural between the mesolithic and ( C,Z,A,G ) east of the ural. So Pontic-Steppe has to be clearly multi-ethnic, i dont know how many times an admixture takes to be diluted in another. Whoops ! Seems in fact that he was iron-age scythian and not from yamna !