Illyria

[kamani]

I have collected a lot of historical information trust me, but i am new to this genetics thing and was asking about the similarities of albanians to greeks and also to illyrians? Yllirians?


with respect


bardhyl

This is all very speculative but here it goes:
E-v13 were the pelazgians, indigenous inhabitants from the stone-age. Then came minorities of Indo-European invasions of: Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. Illyrians and Thracians came from the North-West (Germany) through the Danube corridor, Greeks came from the North-Eastern steppes (Russia, but they're not slavic). These tribes mixed with the Pelasgians. Then the new Illyrians and Greeks were hit by waves of phoenicians, persians, and romans. Then they were hit by waves of slavs. That's why both Albanians and Greeks have close percentages of the same bizarre mix of y-dna.
The Illyrians of Croatia and Bosnia were somewhat decimated after the Bato rebellions. Then there was a period of dark ages after the fall of the Roman Empire, when various barbarian tribes went through that area; and the latest permanent settlers were the slavs around the 6-th century.

 

[adamo]

The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

 

[mihaitzateo]

The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

No one knows what Thracians were.
I do not think they were descendants of Illyrians ,since they are mentioned as being a very large population (Thracians).
I know how Albanians are telling non-sense,that they are Ilyrians and how Greeks are telling another non-sense,that they are almost same with ancient Greeks.
Not possible.
I think K36 admixture results are most wide for today Greeks,from Europe,lots of them have even Feno-scandian admixture,even more North-Sea admixture,Red sea admixture,etc.
Albanians results are not that wide,but still very wide.
No one is descendant of only Thracians,or only Ilyrians,this is what admixture tests are saying.
People from Balkans,including Greeks and Albanians,are a mixture of populations,Old Greeks,Thracians,Ilyrians,Goths and other Germanic tribes,Celts,Slavs,Romans and so on.

 

[adamo]

Thracians and Dacians were I2a2 people derived from the Illyrians and their civilization off the Adriatic coast.

 

[Bardhyl]

Sure?

Thracians and Dacians were I2a2 people derived from the Illyrians and their civilization off the Adriatic coast.

Are you sure about this, because i2a seems to be very much on slavic speaking countries.

i quote:Haplogroup I2a1b-L621

This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age.

source: is on eupedia haplogroup i2, unfortunately i am not alloqed yet to post links....

this shows that i2a doesnt show illyrian heritage or thraco-dacian.

 

[Bardhyl]

Sure?

This does mean, that if we connect the genetics with the history- history taught us that slavs came at the time of the year 600 which carried on them i2a-din and r1a. And the high percentage of i2a shows that these regions i2a is probably most of the medieval slavs than of the illyrians, because if there were so many illyrians why couldnt they resist to change the language into slavic? Whereas according to eupedia (sorry am not allowed to post link) the region of albania greece kosovo and montenegro could mostly resist the slavic invasion.

 

[adamo]

Yes; the R1a Slavs invaded towards east-Central Europe 600 A.D. No, they did not, for the last time, bring I2a with them, or any I for that matter. The I2a rather I attribute to a certain continuity of "southern proto-Europeans" among those men that were in Europe "before the indo-Europeans".

 

[Bardhyl]

The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

You people are mixing things i2a2 is more on germans and scandinavians and also britains, see on eupedia i2a2 the map.

 

[adamo]

The P37.2 (I2a) branch called I-M423 most frequent in northern Balkans is what I mean man,you know that. Alright, alright I'm not up to date with phylogeny tree names but you get my point.

 

[Bardhyl]

Yes; the R1a Slavs invaded towards east-Central Europe 600 A.D. No, they did not, for the last time, bring I2a with them, or any I for that matter. The I2a rather I attribute to a certain continuity of "southern proto-Europeans" among those men that were in Europe "before the indo-Europeans".

I quote again pls read before reply:
The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan. (Source eupedia i2)

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (source eupedia i2a).

Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was problbly because of slavic otherwise they vould have resisted and not soeak a slavic language.

 

[adamo]

No I am correct that's what I meant; the Balkanic I2a2. Again, in response to your Slavic theories of I2a2; you are wrong. The Slavs arrived much later; long after the Illyrians; they may have conquested and merged with/imposed their culture/language on the indigenous men of the region but If language is your only argument you've already failed.

 

[Bardhyl]

Sorry for my writing errors, i am writing on my ipad.

 

[adamo]

Me too lol and it's o.k. , : ) but I strongly disagree with a Slavic origin of I2a; i2a is much younger in Moldova for example than in Czech Republic/Slovakia or Bosnia/Croatia.

 

[Bardhyl]

Its strange

Me too lol and it's o.k. , : ) but I strongly disagree with a Slavic origin of I2a; i2a is much younger in Moldova for example than in Czech Republic/Slovakia or Bosnia/Croatia.

I quote again pls read before reply:
The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan. (Source eupedia i2)


Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (source eupedia i2a).


Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was probably because of slavic otherwise they would have resisted and not speak a slavic language.

consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.

Reason:
1. slavic language
2. Slavic migration happend recently (considered historically) which is a strong argument for the high percentage.
3. it cannot be that illyrians cared with them only i2a, considering E-V13 in the balkans for a longer period of time approximately 6000 years b.c.

All my info is from eupedia.

 

[adamo]

I2a peaks in extreme northwestern Balkans. E-V13 on Greece, south-central Albania, southern Serbia etc. it's not exactly the same location. I don't find any of those to be up debatable reasons actually. Greece, Albania, Macedonia and southern Serbia have 20-30% E-V13 with a peak of 30% across pretty much all of Albania. Greece has 20-25%. Same for Macedonia. Serbia has more 15-18% with the north having as low as 10%. Bulgaria has more like 15% nationally maybe the same for Romania as well.

 

[Bardhyl]

I2a peaks in extreme northwestern Balkans. E-V13 on Greece, south-central Albania, southern Serbia etc. it's not exactly the same location. I don't find any of those to be up debatable reasons actually.

Yes and illyria wasn't only on northwestern balkan, considering that king agron king genti and also queen teuta king bardyllis were reigning more on the region of shkodra todays albania,

see kings and queens of illyria on wikipedia

 

[adamo]

About 15-25% of Albanian males are I-M423 today, indicating a fraction of them may very well have been Illyrians; the levels are higher than in Greece but are still present there too.

 

[Garrick]

R1a in Balkans is very, very old. According some authors older than 10,000 years. Today's Balkans I2a is much younger than R1a. R1a and I2a speak same language. Probably there was a period when the number of I2a carriers was small (possible in the part of today's Romania). I2a carriers lived together with R1a carriers and merged together (it is possible that R1a carriers took the language from I2a carriers but probability is very very small). So, correctly observed, I2a and R1a are always in pair, in other words both I2a and R1a are Illyrians, Thracians, Slavs etc.

 

[adamo]

No. I completely disagree for all the reasons I've previously stated. R1a has not been in the Balkans for 'over ten thousand years" it would have been in the Ukrainian refuge or the western Russian plains. Stop trying to merge them dude, the Illyrians and their derivatives evolved very separately from the Slavs for a very long time before merging much more recently in southeastern Europe. Very frequently conquerors impose language and culture on others; it doesn't always mean a shared origin.

 

[Garrick]

No. I completely disagree for all the reasons I've previously stated. R1a has not been in the Balkans for 'over ten thousand years" it would have been in the Ukrainian refuge or the western Russian plains. Stop trying to merge them dude, the Illyrians and their derivatives evolved very separately from the Slavs for a very long time before merging much more recently in southeastern Europe. Very frequently conquerors impose language and culture on others; it doesn't always mean a shared origin.

Scientists in renowned science journals write that R1a is the oldest haplogroup in Balkans, older than 10,000 years.