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Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.Originally Posted by Bodin
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With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.
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No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.
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Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.
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No nation is just from one nation , every nation is from mixed origin
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What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region. In some areas there's more J2 in some areas there's more I2 or R1, but in general all Kurdish areas show the same pattern.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!
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Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.
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Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions
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No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation
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I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.
Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.
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Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!
But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.
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They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.
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Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.
The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.
isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?
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some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.
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"Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:
Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously."
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf
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Well that's might be true. I can't find any other explanation! And this will change my perception on the ancient Greek historians that not all of them were a bunch of biased liars with a lot imagination.
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I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html
Also this was the frequency:
21ff56142ce8.jpg
As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).
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Ok thanks! Very much G2a in the Ossetian groups!
No according to Bodin I2a-din Sarmatians were NOT like Scythians. Accroding to him Sarmatians and Scythians were different people. He is saying that Scythians were R1a folks and Sarmatians I2a-din folks. And that the Sarmatians and Medes were the same. According to him Sarmatians are the 'Solar Medes'.
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It's not Ukrainian originally, it exists in South Asia and it predates the Indo-Aryan migration by its existence in tribal Indians:
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...714Table_3.pdf
Some Indian R1a1a indeed share Indo-European ancestors with Eastern Europeans, but a lot of them have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.
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Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups
First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them. I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.
In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
Back to the Scythians, Medes etc. Like I mentioned sometime before allmost all
schoolers agree that a Nation called the "Medes" were the product of various North Iranic tribes.
Mede was more a title later becoming the name of a confederation. from historic records we know that Mede was also the title of many Scythians and Cimmerians. for more informations "Carola Metzner-Nebelsick: Kimmerier In: Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde,"
Many of the so called "Medes" were in fact Cimmerians and Scythians. If we look at historic records we see, that throughout the whole former Median empire there are traces of Cimmerians and Scythians-Alans. Cimmerians in Edessa, Cappadocia,Hakkari,Van and around the Zagroß. Persian records talk about Gmira(the Proto-Iranian word for Cimmerians with the meaning mobile unites, nomadic groups). There are records that South of Lak Urmiya a Region was called Gamirk the same name which was also used by the Cimmerians moving into Cappadocia. Even today this Region is called by Kurds Gawirk! This M=W/V soundshift is very typical for some Kurdish languages like Kurmanji known by any linguist. As example The North Iranian Hamin becomes Havin. Even today in this Region a Kurdish tribe lives which is called Gorani. The Word Gorani derives from Old Iranic Gairi which means Highlanders. Gairi is another Version for the Name of Cimmerians in pre historic times.
Then there are the Alans one of the biggest Kurdish tribes. Someone must be very ignorant to not see the connection between them and the Alans of Sarmatia. 99% of historians are sure that the Alan tribe among Kurds are simply the Alans(Sarmatians). The Alan tribe of Kurds live throughout Kurdistan from East Anatolia to Zagros. From Dersim, Van, Hakkari to Kirmashan you can find the Alans. unfortunately after the Dersim massacre especially members of the Alan tribe in Dersim were deported to West Anatolia to be assimilated.
a wedding of the Kurdish Alan tribe.
The Region around Sine(Sanandaj) and Mahabad is traditionally called by their People Erdalan. In Kurdish it means Erd(place, earth) Alan. The place of Alans.
Alan Kurdish dance Group from Erdalan.
The Alans also play a big role in Kurdish love stories
the story was filmed here some excerpts. Zîn is the woman. Memê Alan(Mem the Alan) is men.With regard to the Alans, we have previously mentioned the large Alanian tribal confederations among the Kurds, such as Alans of Piranshahr and Sardasht south of lake Urmia or the Alan aristocracy who ruled for centuries over what is nowadays Iranian province of Kurdistan (Ardalan, or Ard-Alan), immidiately to south of the former.
We have also referred to the name of the mythological Kurdish hero of the Epic of Mem u Zin, "Memê Alan" (or Mam the Alan). This classic love story is considered to be the épopée of the Kurdish literature. One more interesting fact with regard to the story is pointed out by the French orientalist and expert on Kurdish literature, Roger Lescot. He rightfully identified the origin of the story in a narration by Chares of Mytilene, a Greek historian of the 4th century BC. Chares informs us that the love story which is about a prince and a Scythian princess, is originally recited by the Scythians of Caucasus mountains.
Now the thing is some people totally ignore this because they use the linguistics as reason. Those People usually have zero knowledge about the Iranic languages and how they are classified. The difference between Northwest and Northeast Iranic is super small. In fact the factors which are used for this separation are so small that simple loud shifts could effect that a Northeast Iranic language is considered Northwest. Thats why MANY linguists started to Question this system and recognized that in fact the difference between the NW and NE Iranic is smaller as that between NW and SW Iranic. Many linguists in fact do classify like this.
They put Kurdish together with the East Iranic languages in a Central Group and Persian, Kathanese have their own separate branch.
We Kurds just like any other People are the product of different tribes. The Reason why so many Kurds insist on the Median heritage, is because the forefather of Kurds were united under this title just like they are today under the term Kurd. But I don´t like it when Medes are mentioned as if it was one tribe. Med was a title used for Scythians, Parthians, Cimmerians, Alans, Mitannis and even Caucasian tribes(Hurrians) etc. and the Kurdish tribes with there diverse names are the product of this. Around Mardin there is even a Kurdish tribe called Mitan! There must be a reason why in Iranian languages Kurd means nomad as well Warrior and why Iranians almost always say "the Kurds are the real Iranians" Now the Question is, did all these tribes move into Media, or were they already present.
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And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.
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@ Alan
your language table is in error
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...jandacek07.pdf
slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs
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No it isnt. It cant be wrong it just has a different type. Every table is different from another. It differs between South, East and West Slavic. Your PDF says Southwest Slavic and it doesent differs so good.
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Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.org and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:
DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10
I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them.
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full
This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.
Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.
Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.
I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...sr126.abstract
Here's the frequency from the study:
21ff56142ce8.jpg
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I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.
thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full
This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.
I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.
No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.
I will look over it, Thank you.I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...sr126.abstract
Here's the frequency from the study:
21ff56142ce8.jpg
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