Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Goga]

How do you explain it? I would say founder effect.

Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.

All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated into India later. And that H and R have different origin.

There's R2a in West Asia, while H is almost absent. 1-2% of H is nothing, maybe due to some gene flow, Gypsies etc..

People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some Dravidian-centric folks hg. J2 is from India too. Bla, bla..

But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India, you can deny it or not !!!

 

[Goga]

What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.

Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!

 

[Cobol19]

Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.

I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.

All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated much later into India. And that H and R have different origin.

Haplogroup H is indeed almost exclusive to South Asia, but what do you say when 90% of R2a are Indian? That's pretty exclusive too, and no, we don't know if H, R2a, or whatever was ancient Dravidian, in fact, I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.

People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some folks there J2 is also from India. Bla, bla..

But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India!!!

First, I'm not South Asian so I care less whether an Aryan invasion happened or not, second, I do believe that Aryan tribes did migrate from Central Asia and brought their Aryan languages (Possibly only one language at the time) to India, third, J2 originated in West Asia, finally, my opinion is based on scientific data collected in studies, both of haplogroups R1a1a and R2a exist among South Indian tribal groups that speak Dravidian languages, in fact, both of these lineages exist in most Indian groups and language or caste/tribe is hardly the defining factor, what makes R2a more Aryan than Dravidian?

Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.

 

[Cobol19]

Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!

Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans

 

[Sile]

As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.

I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

 

[Bodin]

There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.

Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.



As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.

I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.

 

[Bodin]

I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

They couldnt be Slavicized because there was not Slavs when Scythians were there , Slavs was made later , I guess of Scythians ploughers( around Pripyat) , some Neuri( Balts) , and maybe some older population .

 

[Cobol19]

I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around (The early Indo-Europeans were the ones to do that), for whatever it's worth, only detailed analysis of R1a1a can determine that, recently, L342.2 seems to be the defining SNP that is found among R1a1a groups in South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East, in Europe however this is lacking with the exception of Jewish R1a1a, I believe groups like Tajiks and Pashtuns still carry significant ancient Scythian DNA, specially when both groups still speak languages similar (Among the Tajiks, the Pamiri groups still speak such language), if this mutation is found among them, I think this will close the case.

I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.

 

[Cobol19]

I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.

Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.

 

[Goga]

I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.

Which new studies? And on which Kurds? Southern Kurds almost don't have R2a, while Northern Kurds have some R2a, like other Iranic folks in the region.

I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.

True. But do you know Kant? He said one time a very good thing: "Begriffe ohne Anschauunge sind leer, Anschauunge ohne Begriffe sind tot."

Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.

I'm not accusing you. I'm sorry if you thought that I'm accusing you. My point is maybe you're reading very controversial studies?

And you're right. If you ingore the facts you will never find the true!

 

[Bodin]

Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.

I didnt say they are the same , I only said Scythians are descendants of Andronovo culture peoples

 

[Goga]

Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans

So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?

If Tajiks are related to Scythians. And Tajiks speak an IE language and they are Iranic. Tajiks are the close relatives to modern Persians, that are also Iranic IE folks. Scythians spoke an Indo-European language too and are related to modern IE folks like Tajiks. So that makes them both without doubts Iranic and Indo-European.

 

[Cobol19]

So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?

They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.

My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.

The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.

 

[Bodin]

If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

 

[Goga]

# Cobol19

Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.

 

[Bodin]

They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.

My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.

The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.

I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia

 

[Bodin]

# Cobol19

Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.

Trying my best

 

[Cobol19]

If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there.

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.

I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia

I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.

 

[Bodin]

Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape

 

[Goga]

If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them?
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) .
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.

So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.