Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.
Well that's might be true. I can't find any other explanation! And this will change my perception on the ancient Greek historians that not all of them were a bunch of biased liars with a lot imagination.
 
"Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:

Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

21ff56142ce8.jpg

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).
 
I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

View attachment 5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).
Ok thanks! Very much G2a in the Ossetian groups!

No according to Bodin I2a-din Sarmatians were NOT like Scythians. Accroding to him Sarmatians and Scythians were different people. He is saying that Scythians were R1a folks and Sarmatians I2a-din folks. And that the Sarmatians and Medes were the same. According to him Sarmatians are the 'Solar Medes'.
 
Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups
First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them. I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.

In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2/default.aspx?section=yresults

Back to the Scythians, Medes etc. Like I mentioned sometime before allmost all
schoolers agree that a Nation called the "Medes" were the product of various North Iranic tribes.
Mede was more a title later becoming the name of a confederation. from historic records we know that Mede was also the title of many Scythians and Cimmerians. for more informations "Carola Metzner-Nebelsick: Kimmerier In: Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde,"

Many of the so called "Medes" were in fact Cimmerians and Scythians. If we look at historic records we see, that throughout the whole former Median empire there are traces of Cimmerians and Scythians-Alans. Cimmerians in Edessa, Cappadocia,Hakkari,Van and around the Zagroß. Persian records talk about Gmira(the Proto-Iranian word for Cimmerians with the meaning mobile unites, nomadic groups). There are records that South of Lak Urmiya a Region was called Gamirk the same name which was also used by the Cimmerians moving into Cappadocia. Even today this Region is called by Kurds Gawirk! This M=W/V soundshift is very typical for some Kurdish languages like Kurmanji known by any linguist. As example The North Iranian Hamin becomes Havin. Even today in this Region a Kurdish tribe lives which is called Gorani. The Word Gorani derives from Old Iranic Gairi which means Highlanders. Gairi is another Version for the Name of Cimmerians in pre historic times.

Then there are the Alans one of the biggest Kurdish tribes. Someone must be very ignorant to not see the connection between them and the Alans of Sarmatia. 99% of historians are sure that the Alan tribe among Kurds are simply the Alans(Sarmatians). The Alan tribe of Kurds live throughout Kurdistan from East Anatolia to Zagros. From Dersim, Van, Hakkari to Kirmashan you can find the Alans. unfortunately after the Dersim massacre especially members of the Alan tribe in Dersim were deported to West Anatolia to be assimilated.

a wedding of the Kurdish Alan tribe.

The Region around Sine(Sanandaj) and Mahabad is traditionally called by their People Erdalan. In Kurdish it means Erd(place, earth) Alan. The place of Alans.
Alan Kurdish dance Group from Erdalan.


The Alans also play a big role in Kurdish love stories
With regard to the Alans, we have previously mentioned the large Alanian tribal confederations among the Kurds, such as Alans of Piranshahr and Sardasht south of lake Urmia or the Alan aristocracy who ruled for centuries over what is nowadays Iranian province of Kurdistan (Ardalan, or Ard-Alan), immidiately to south of the former.
We have also referred to the name of the mythological Kurdish hero of the Epic of Mem u Zin, "Memê Alan" (or Mam the Alan). This classic love story is considered to be the épopée of the Kurdish literature. One more interesting fact with regard to the story is pointed out by the French orientalist and expert on Kurdish literature, Roger Lescot. He rightfully identified the origin of the story in a narration by Chares of Mytilene, a Greek historian of the 4th century BC. Chares informs us that the love story which is about a prince and a Scythian princess, is originally recited by the Scythians of Caucasus mountains.

the story was filmed here some excerpts. Zîn is the woman. Memê Alan(Mem the Alan) is men.

Now the thing is some people totally ignore this because they use the linguistics as reason. Those People usually have zero knowledge about the Iranic languages and how they are classified. The difference between Northwest and Northeast Iranic is super small. In fact the factors which are used for this separation are so small that simple loud shifts could effect that a Northeast Iranic language is considered Northwest. Thats why MANY linguists started to Question this system and recognized that in fact the difference between the NW and NE Iranic is smaller as that between NW and SW Iranic. Many linguists in fact do classify like this.
33wqpm0.jpg

indo-european-family-of-languages.jpg
They put Kurdish together with the East Iranic languages in a Central Group and Persian, Kathanese have their own separate branch.

We Kurds just like any other People are the product of different tribes. The Reason why so many Kurds insist on the Median heritage, is because the forefather of Kurds were united under this title just like they are today under the term Kurd. But I don´t like it when Medes are mentioned as if it was one tribe. Med was a title used for Scythians, Parthians, Cimmerians, Alans, Mitannis and even Caucasian tribes(Hurrians) etc. and the Kurdish tribes with there diverse names are the product of this. Around Mardin there is even a Kurdish tribe called Mitan! There must be a reason why in Iranian languages Kurd means nomad as well Warrior and why Iranians almost always say "the Kurds are the real Iranians" Now the Question is, did all these tribes move into Media, or were they already present.
 
And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.
 
Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups

Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.orghttp://www.yhrd.com and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:

DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10

First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them.
I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full

This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.

Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.

I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.
Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.

In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R2/default.aspx?section=yresults
I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract

Here's the frequency from the study:

21ff56142ce8.jpg
 
Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.orghttp://www.yhrd.com and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:

DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10
I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.
I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full

This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.
thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.

Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.
I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.

Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.
No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.

south_asia_map.gif


I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/05/13/molbev.msr126.abstract

Here's the frequency from the study:

View attachment 5138

I will look over it, Thank you.
 
I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.



Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period
 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering
 
They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.
No they were not some form of Scythians , you just denied yourself , Scythians were R1a - shown by grave excavations, and there is very litle R1a among Ossetians . But there is significant amount of I2a2 in Ossetians - Sarmatians.
No Alans are not same as Sarmathians - they later got in to Sarmathian union , but Alan mean " one that live in steppes" - they are descendants of Masagetae - that lived east of Caspian sea , and Sarmathians west of it - Chinese sources mention Alanliao on that place and say they are descendants of Yancai kingdom ( Osi , Aorsi other names of Alani ).
 
Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?
Only some Scythians become Madyars , most of them turned to Slavs
 
I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/genes-and-languages-in-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

View attachment 5137

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).
This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00131.x/pdf
and hier is abstract:
Table 3


Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Ossetian groups

Haplogroups

Groups N E

CKP1 PR1R1a1FGJ2IHD Source

YAP RPS4Y M9 M124 M45 M173 M17 M89 M201 M172 M170

North Ossetia (Russia)

Digora

31 0 0 0 0 0.06 0 0 0.03 0.74 0.03 0.13 0.440 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Ardon

28 0 0 0.07 0 0.04 0 0.04 0.04 0.21 0.29 0.32 0.788 Nasidze et al., (2004)

Zil’ga

23 0 0 0.130 0 0 0 0 0.043 0.565 0.261 0 0.620 Present study

Zamankul

23 0 0 0.217 0 0 0 0 0.087 0.609 0.087 0 0.590 Present study

Alagir

24 0 0 0.083 0.083 0 0.042 0 0 0.750 0.042 0 0.440 Present study

South Ossetia (Georgia)

S. Ossetians

17 0.18 0 0 0 0 0.12 0.06 0.41 - 0.24 0 0.772 Wells et al., (2001)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus
There is extract :

LezginsNEC (Lezgic)31&100000000000000065000006.5&100000000000000096999999.7&10000000000000009699999I=9.7&1000000000000005810000058.1&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000.0&1000000000000001610000016.1&100000000000000000000000.00.0—Yunusbaev 2006[9]
DarginsNEC (Dargin)2644I=58see F400400F[xG,I,J2,K]=27Nasidze2004http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...tions_of_the_Caucasus#cite_note-Nasidze2004-1B[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechens"]Chechens Total [20]NEC (Nakh)3300.0P18=3.0
P303=2.4I2=.3J1*=20.9M67=55.2
J2b=.3
other=1.2L3=7.03.91.83.30.0-Balanovsky 2011http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...ns_of_the_Caucasus#cite_note-Balanovsky2011-2alkars[/URL]Altaic (Turkic)[17]38&100000000000000026000002.6&1000000000000002889999928.9I2*=&100000000000000026000002.60M67=5.3
J2b=2.6
other=15.8L2=&100000000000000052999995.3&1000000000000001319999913.2&1000000000000001319999913.2&100000000000000079000007.9&100000000000000000000000.0H=2.6Battaglia2008http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...ns_of_the_Caucasus#cite_note-Battaglia2008-17Azeris
(Azerbaijan)Altaic (Turkic)[15]725.618.12.8F30.66.9[1]6.911.12.84.2[1]F[xG,I,J2,K]=11Nasidze2004[2]AvarsNEC (Avar-Andic, Avar)1150.0P18=.9
P303=9.6I*=.9
I2a=.9J1e=.9
J1*=58.3M67=.9
other=5.2L2=2.61.714.8.90.0N=1.7Balanovsky 2011[
AndisNEC (Avar-Andic, Andic)49&100000000000000020000002.0G2=
&100000000000000060999996.1I1=&100000000000000020000002.0
I2a=&1000000000000002450000024.5&1000000000000003670000036.7&1000000000000001839999918.4&100000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000020000002.0&100000000000000060999996.10.0&100000000000000020000002.0—Yunusbaev Adygei/
"Circassians"[4]NWC (Adygei)-0.0[5]31.3[6]I*=1.4
I2a=2.9[7]

--Adygei (Kabardin)NWC (Adigei)59&100000000000000000000000&1000000000000002880000028.8&10000000000000010199999I=10.2F11.9K&100000000000000017000001.7&100000000000000017000001.70KF[xG,I,J2,K]=23.7
K[xP]=15.3



Abkhaz

NWC (Abkhaz-Ubykh)1200 I=33025033.0800—Nasidze2004
 
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%

First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.
 
First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.
 
And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.
No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .
 
First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.
Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians
 

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