Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Cobol19]

Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape
View attachment 5136

Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.

 

[Bodin]

What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there.

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.



I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.

No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )

 

[Goga]

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.

In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!

All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.

 

[Bodin]

I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.

So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.

Thanks , maybe Medians come with Persians like I2a2 , and maybe they were also R1a , but ruled over majority of I2a2 that was previosly in aeria.

 

[Bodin]

Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.

Since certain haplogroups lived long time in same climate , they get characteristic looks

 

[Cobol19]

No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )

Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.

 

[Cobol19]

In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!

All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.

With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.

 

[Bodin]

Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.

No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.

 

[Cobol19]

No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.

Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.

 

[Bodin]

With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.

No nation is just from one nation , every nation is from mixed origin

 

[Goga]

With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.

What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region. In some areas there's more J2 in some areas there's more I2 or R1, but in general all Kurdish areas show the same pattern.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!

 

[Cobol19]

What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!

Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.

 

[Bodin]

Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.

Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions

 

[Bodin]

Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.

No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation

 

[Cobol19]

Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions

I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.

No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation

Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.

 

[Goga]

Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.

Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

 

[Cobol19]

Ok. I do agree with you!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? The same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.

 

[zanipolo]

Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around

I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.

Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?

 

[zanipolo]

Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.

 

[Goga]

They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.

"Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:

Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf