Religion A world without religion

Thor

Thor

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I guess I am somewhat fanatical about this subject. I know the world would be better if religion was banned. Religion has caused wars, acts of terrorism, murder, discrimination, and genocide. Imagine a world without religion. I honestly think religion has been there for mankind as a comforter. We don't know if there is a heaven or a hell. People like to think there is life after we die. I really don't care if there is.

Religious fanaticals like Hitler blamed the problems of his country on judaism. The crusades were fought in the name of god. Even the Bush administration claims some sort of connection to religion. Islamic terrorists are supposedly fighting in the name of Allah.

People today dicriminate against homosexuality because it is deemed improper in their religion.

I would like to live in a world where gods and goddesses have no effect on humanity. It would be a better place.
 
I can understand the emotion from which you are coming, Thor. It is nice to have you posting here as well. Have you studied much about various religions?
 
Thor, I strongly disagree-
The world would be a much poorer place without religion. The color, culture, art, music-- adds richness to the fabric of our daily lives. The rituals that mark the important passages of life, the sense of connection and connectedness- of timelessness and hope are all part of almost any religion and religious experience. Religion need not only be associated with wars and suffering. Charity, hospitality, kindness, love and respect are all hallmarks and touchstones of every major religion. You can't separate the beauty, generosity, sacrifice and hope brought to society in the name of religion anymore than you have blamed religion for the inhumanity and wars perpetrated in God's name.
 
Thor said:
I guess I am somewhat fanatical about this subject.
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I am fascinated by this subject, I however am not clearly for or against religion. The underlying message of all religions is compassion, tolerance, patience, humility, hope, and an easygoingness (a joy and purpose in life that transcends the various vissicitudes of life).

Just a bit about me, I am an agnostic with fairly strong Buddhist leanings. I grew up in an fundamental evangelical protestant Christian household, and went to an interdenominational Christian school for most of my schooling years. In short, Christianity caused me a whole lot of confusion, and Buddhism made a whole lot more sense to me. Although now looking back, I still see the issues that confused me, and they still confuse me, but I also see that Christianity has built within it a sort of system of beliefs that bring on perceptions that cause gratitude, awe, compassion, humility, and tolerance.

Just by way of example, people feel humility for being sinners, gratitude to Jesus and God for showing great compassion, and a need to pass this compassion on. How would I know? I talked to my fundamental Christian aunt, and she honestly felt compelled as a Christian to be compassionate to people, and she and her husband spent four years in Africa giving medical aid and education to those countries ravaged by AIDS.

Would I disagree with her regarding homosexuality? I would, but I'm not one to strongly press that case (were I to press any case, it would be that people need basic food and medical, and gay rights would take a back seat in priority. Therefore even fundamental Christians who would enforce their views are often doing more good than harm as I see it).
Thor said:
I know the world would be better if religion was banned. Religion has caused wars, acts of terrorism, murder, discrimination, and genocide.
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I don't know about that. The Chinese tried very hard to stamp out all religion, seeing it as conflicting with communist ideals. A lot of Chinese are now athiest, although many are fascinated by Tibetan Buddhism (I don't know if they are fascinated by other religions as well). There seems to be something of a need in many people for religion, and I honestly wouldn't try to break my mother's faith (she is a fundamental Christian).

Religion has not really caused so many wars, so much as it's simply been used as a holy motive for war. Simple money has caused the majority of wars.

But were religion to disappear, I think we would find humans were still ingenious at finding justification for their various acts of terrorism, murder, genocide, and discrimination.
Thor said:
Imagine a world without religion. I honestly think religion has been there for mankind as a comforter. We don't know if there is a heaven or a hell. People like to think there is life after we die. I really don't care if there is.
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If people are comforted, then they will be happier people. Happier people I would contend are kinder people.

But all in all, I think that the view that general history and the news gives of religions is very dim. But that's just natural, does CNN want to report that the Catholics raised a large amount of money this month for the poor in India, or does it want to report the suicide bombing that took place in Israel?
 
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Thor i agree with you, and disagree with Sabro, i see all the nice adjectives that Sabro has attached to religions to be really adjectives that describe people.
And before i continue i just want to mention that i am from Rome, and i leaved for 23 years next door with The Vatican City.

Religion is not my main subject, but i know that in name of religions many inhumanity have been committed both in the present and in the past.
Sabro mentions charity, hospitality kindness and love, this are characteristics of human being, not of religions, of course religions like to be associated with this adjectives, but in the mean time ecclesiastics in Vatican City go around on Mercedes Benz, and not just the top guys.

During Medieval times in Italy rich people were signing contracts with the church to leave all their belongings, including hectares of land in exchange for a place in heaven, of course this people were now sure to go to heaven and felt free to commit any sort of crime.

The only charity i know, made in name of the church, is the one where the church is at the receiving end, and what do they do with the money ? Build yet another church, there are probably more churches in Rome than pubs in London.

I see love and the church really clashing, just think about church point of view regarding gays and lesbians marriage, so some loves are ok some others are not ?

Sabro what do you mean by beauty brought to society in name of religion ?

In my opinion religions are bureaucratic heavy weight stones that just slow down human kind progress both socially and spiritually (you don't need to be religious to be a spiritual person).
Also you don't need to be religious or believe in any kind of God to be kind, generous or charitable.
 
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Religion isn't overly a bad thing really.
I am an Atheist though,because I believe that whatever your belief is,we all believe in something anyways,meaning it doesn't matter in what we believe.
But Religion made many things possible,good things and bad things.
Religions are often good for making the difference in the world,we all love variation don't we?
But it's too true that the saying over here goes "A Good political leader uses a religion to his advantage"
Leaders,have been [ab]using people's religions for ages, to get people to join their side or even to acheive peace and unity,but on the otherside also war.
Religion is not all bad or all good : like most things it has a good and a bad side.
A world without it is unthinkable nowadays.
 
sciek-
Of course those characteristics I described are human... but they are the chief characteristics promoted by every major religion and it is only fair that if you are going to attach the negative aspects of humanity to religion that you also attach these positive attributes.

As for the beauty brought to society- you need look no further than the art, architecture, and the mixture of humanity brought to you daily by the Roman Church. Those things and people- and their charitable works, acts of contrition, piety, expressions of worship in music painting and sculpture are all facets and products of that religion. Dig a bit deeper and you will find artifacts of earlier religions and the beauty they brought.
 
I wouldn't say religion is an overly bad thing, either. But I guess of the centuries people have used religion for their own benefit. If anything, there has to be a re-evalutation of religion. I think the reason why there's so much violence comitted in the name of religion is because of the ideals surrounding it. I think religion can comforting for some people and help people believe in God in a different way.
But using it as an only means to solve the world's problems can only be disaterous. And I also believe that there is no need for religion in most aspects of life. That why I have reservations about people who consult their holy book to help them make decisions in their lives and there's no need for that. I think I pointed this out before, we don't need religion to tell us what's right or wrong, and in the near future I don't people will no longer be able to consult religion to help them make decisions in their lives. As well as giving us moral guidence. Because mankind (I believe) is capable of doing that on its own.
 
Thor said:
People like to think there is life after we die.
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Do they? I've always wondered why. Far from being comforting, I'd feel much more comforted to think there isn't anything after we die.

sabro said:
Religion need not only be associated with wars and suffering.
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wandering-raven said:
Religion is not all bad or all good : like most things it has a good and a bad side.
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true.

Religion, like anything else, can be misused by people who have the inclination and wish to do so. :souka:
 
A quicky here folks, and I will be back with some information and deeper points. It may be good to keep the distinction between a belief system, and abstract concept involved in the broad, all encompassing word, religion. OR...we should decided on a definite definition for that word.

I sense some confusion based on different conceptualizations of the referent behind the word 'religion'.
 
sciek-
Of course those characteristics I described are human... but they are the chief characteristics promoted by every major religion and it is only fair that if you are going to attach the negative aspects of humanity to religion that you also attach these positive attributes.
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I agree with your first point it is fair, to an extend, however, some how, i think the negative points have a firmer presents than the positive points, just look at Europe in the 16th century, Protestant and Christians were killing each other just for religions ideology.
Native South Americans have been massacred with the excuse that they were just Pagans, as deep as i dig i can't find any where written that the Roman-church was hurrying to stop the Spanish or the Portuguese, on the contrary you will find that the slaughter had the church blessing.
And so on through history...
For me the bad points are more than just attached to religions, religions have really proactively earned them, and they hang over them greatly overshadowing the good points that you are mentioning.
As for the beauty brought to society- you need look no further than the art, architecture, and the mixture of humanity brought to you daily by the Roman Church. Those things and people- and their charitable works, acts of contrition, piety, expressions of worship in music painting and sculpture are all facets and products of that religion. Dig a bit deeper and you will find artifacts of earlier religions and the beauty they brought.
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As i mentioned in my previous post i am a Roman, and truly i am aware of the Roman-church art that you are referring to, and although it is a beautiful architecture for me is a constant remainder of how Roman-church was and still is more worry to spend money to show its power, than to help people in need.
I like to mention as well European, but mostly Italians, painters of the 14th and 15th century, like Raphael, Pinturicchio, Piero della Francesca, Leonardo da Vinci and many more great painters basically forced to paint thousands of ?gMadonna with child?h. This rather than a church contribution to art feels like a church appropriation of Art.
In regard to older religions artifacts i totally agree with you.
 
Scieck-
You seem to think that only the bad actions such as wars, masasacres and inhumanity should be attached to religions and somehow every good and charitable act should be seperated and ascribed instead to an individual's innate goodness. The opposite could be just as true. At the core of every religion is a drive for better character- for conduct better than what others deserve- for a nature better than what is displayed so often.

Humans are capable of incredible kindeness and cruelty, of enourmous beauty and grace, and the moust foul and disgusting attrocities. Whether you attach the actions to the religion of the perpetrator or their language, diet, ethnicity or hair color-- you need to include the good with the bad. I doubt that the religion or any other factor I listed is responsible for the darker impulses of our nature.
 
You are right SABRO, we only have to think of all the wonderful and hard work mother Teresa did for the poor people in India.
That was pure LOVE in the name of Jesus.
 
sabro said:
Whether you attach the actions to the religion of the perpetrator or their language, diet, ethnicity or hair color-- you need to include the good with the bad.
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Honestly i couldn't agree more,
my point is just that often the bad and the good in something, for example in religions, are not in perfect balance, sometimes one has more presence or more weight than the other, and in my opinion without removing any of the good things about religions, the bad things have some how a heavier weight. And for this reason i tend to emphasise them more.
You are right SABRO, we only have to think of all the wonderful and hard work mother Teresa did for the poor people in India.
That was pure LOVE in the name of Jesus.
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If only a whole religion could be evaluated by the action of one amazing woman like Madre Teresa, than i would agree with you, unfortunately something like a religion can't be evaluated by taking into consideration isolated cases of human kindness but should be seen as overall through the course of history.
 
:? I think religion also has a bad reputation for ignoring lots of grey areas. It seems to me that most religions at least, or all black and white, right and wrong. I think it fails to see the complexity of humanity. Or perhaps throughout history, people have changed religious doctrines to make it seem as though it were just black and white. I think sciek is right about how the bad things outweigh the good.
 
Mother Theresa is not isolated...however rare she was. There are countless examples of hospitals, orphanages, food banks, drug rehabs, summer camps, and other outreaches and ministries that churches choose to serve God by serving the neediest of the needy. It is quite common and happens at hundreds of churches in every major city. Certainly religion would like to be evaluated by its best intentions and actions.

As far as the bad thing having a heavier weight, I don't know about that, but I doubt it. Perhaps it is because with the term "religion" and trying to assess its historical impact, Quakers and Budhists get thrown in with Radical Islamacism and the Spanish inquisition. Some religions and even some sects of some religions are significantly more prone to adopting violence than others. Some are entirely pacifistic and could not be associated with the historical violence we are talking about. And many practicioners have obviously abandoned the more non violent, peaceful, loving attributes in order to advance an agenda that may not fit the core values of the religion itself. I don't think we should blame the religion for the actions of fanatical adherents. (Should we blame Islam for the actions of Islamic radicals?)
 
By the way, the modern era seems to indicate that we have no problem slaughtering one another, waging huge wars, or committing genocide and other unthinkable attrocities without religion playing any role at all. The World Wars, the purges and pogroms the holocaust and four other genocides committed in the last century were not done in the name of any religion. Communist dictators slaughtered millions without help from anyone's gods. Right wing general likewise dissappeared hundreds of thousands without a prayer, saint or candle in sight. I don't think we need religion as an excuse to be horrible, brutish, murderers. We seem to do fine all on our own.
 
To quote a very non-philosophical movie (Phoenix Rising) on the one and only philosophical line in the film:

"I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. Religion divides people, spirituality unites them."
 
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