Religion A world without religion

[Revenant]

There are many weak people who need to deceive themselves in believing they have a crutch to lean on. Of course the crutch isn't really there, but they believe it is.

Define weak. There are a lot of people who would be depressed, discouraged, or angry were it not for an inspiring religious idea. I would contend that just as different musics move different people, so it is with the ideas and myths within a religion. I would also contend that many atheists and agnostics also have their crutches, and although they aren't taken from religion, they still serve the same purpose.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

And because humans will always have this need, they will always have faith. Hopefully it will be in the beautiful, the warmth and love and caring virtues personified by most religions and not in the cold hard light of science.

I hope it will be in the beautiful, the warmth and love and caring virtues personified by science

 

[No-name]

I hope it will be in the beautiful, the warmth and love and caring virtues personified by science

And where the two shall meet, humanity will find its true virtue.

 

[scieck]

And where the two shall meet, humanity will find its true virtue.

Sabro, it sounds very deep, but what does it mean ?
Can you imagine a world where science and religion are hand in hand ?
If so could you tell me how ?

I personally do not think that science and religion are opposed. I mean, it is still reasonable for someone who believes in a God to believe also in the logic of science.

Kinsao, to believe in “a God” or believe in a Religion are very different things, Religion often includes believing in a God but the reverse is not always the case, therefore yes to believe in a God and in logic and science can go well together, (depending a lot on the definition of God), but often scientist find hard to associate them self to a religion.

Big differences there are between 'religion' as a large, woolly concept, and 'organised religion', as in manmade belief systems.

Anything that's manmade is of course not only open to corruption and misuse, but highly likely to be misused, for the reasons of greed, avarice and cruelty, because that is in human nature.

Religion as a large concept or 'organized religion' are both man-made.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Hi, I'm peeping into the religion forum again, just to say hi!
Actually, I have to disagree with this. Not because I think that religion is inherently correct or whatever, but because I think that humans are inherently irrational beings. We have a certain amount of rationality and reason (some more than others), but human beings as a whole are not content with only logic and rationality. It lacks some kind of "flavor" which people seem to need.

Yes, but what is the trend? 200 years ago you would be hard pressed to find people speaking out against religion and those stating they do not believe in superstition or the Bible and instead embracing science and reason as their guides.

Oh, I am pretty sure there will always be some die-hards all the way to the very end of humanity believing in superstition, but logic and reason once it gets in the mind starts to wiggle around. Left there long enough in the masses with enough time to ponder that the inconsistancies and contradictions cause religions to collapse on themselves, the majority will reject that which is babble that is put forth fictitiously and fraudulanlty as truth from an omnipotent God of love.

 

[scieck]

I think that rational people will realize that these heinous acts of violence that reoccur throughout history exist with or without religion. Blaming religion for humanity's penchant for violence, inhumanity, and cruelty is convenient and usually borne out of some feeling of moral superiority from atheists, or even agnostics, but Stalin, Hitler and Mao, Pol Pot...had no problems with mass slaughter without religion.

emh Stalin and Mao may had no problem to slaughter without the help of a religion, but by mentioning Hitler you have overlooked the few millions Jews killed just for being Jewish.

Religion has added not only connection, as Mycernius has mentioned, but a richness, significance and depth to my life. The original topic of this post was something to the effect of the world would be better off without religion. I strongly disagree. I have been shown nothing to support that such a bland, grey existence would be superior to the life I have lived.

And Sabro, just because religion has worked for you it doesn't mean is an answer to everyone of us, my life is full of love and passion, it is constantly enriched by human beings achievements of any sorts, from sport to poetry and science, just to see two friends shake hands, can bring tears to my eyes not because i see any God or God son there but because i see friendship, respect and love between to human beings, and are this simple things that make my life beautiful and rich even though i despise religion.

 

[No-name]

In the Hitler example, the Jews were the victims, not the perpetrators. Are you suggesting that we should rid the world of religion just so people like Hitler couldn't use it to define their victims? Hitler was applying the science of eugenics. You can kill in the name of science, too.

You are suggesting that the world would be better off without religion. I disagree. I am saying that many, many people find that it enriches their lives. The fact that you find other ways of enriching your life is great. You want to do sports, poetry or science and it makes you happy, go for it. If they begin to matter, people will kill over these things too. (Killing for poetry? I don't think that happens too often.)

Religion is no more the cause of suffering or violence than soccer is the cause of hooliganism. The fact that you admit to despising religion is interesting, but a bit sad. I don't like plain yogurt though, I just don't spend time and energy trying to rid the world of it.

Where science and religion meet... I don't have a clue-- I said I hope to see the day. What I said to Tsuyoiko... I don't know what it means actually... I guess it just sounded good at the time.

 

[No-name]

Practice tolerance

The problem is not in religion, but in ourselves... If we practiced tolerance as a race, there would be no need for trying to proscribe or prohibit anyone's belief system. Tolerance is the virtue necessary for a diverse world with a lot of people.

 

[kumo]

And where the two shall meet, humanity will find its true virtue.

It ?fs happened before-- we call it the Dark Ages.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I would just like to remind everyone that there are religions other than Islam, Christianity, and Judaism in practice today.

 

[nice gaijin]

come to think of it... when was genocide carried out in the name of zen buddhism?

 

[Mars Man]

You kind folks all know that I somehow manage to get hung up on the 'what-we-are-talking-about' in a word/term/phrase perhaps a little too stubbornly--although I am yet to be persuaded of it.

Anyway, it still looks as though a couple of words are being used a bit overly loosely. Well, be that as it may, I just wanted to look at what sabro had posted, and work with that a little.

The problem is not in religion, but in ourselves... If we practiced tolerance as a race, there would be no need for trying to proscribe or prohibit anyone's belief system. Tolerance is the virtue necessary for a diverse world with a lot of people.

I would reason that this is true...in that religion is an innate element of the human brain, it is in ourselves.

I would go on to say, that if we humans had practiced tolerance as a species here on earth (for lack of any further hard knowledge of ET) from at least 10,000 years ago, we wouldn't have the Abramic faiths as they are today.

The reason for that is that the greater source of those belief systems is that which comes from a patristic culture steeped in ignorance (relative to knowledge at large today) that held to a rather strict code of intolerance of some rather material degree of diversity.

A lot of good comments have been made, and it's nice to see Mikawa Ossan joining in again.

'Science and religion marrying'? I have taken interest in that, and have done some looking into it, and still can't see the outcome. I would tend to think that after the various religious belief systems have gone through the sieve so that only the religion element is left, science and religion can tie the knot.

 

[Mars Man]

There was one event in old Japan, in Kyoto, where Bhuddists of one sect fought with those of another sect, and it was a small bloodbath. I'll see if I can find the details on that.

 

[No-name]

Prof. Albert Einstein states the following on the general lack of scientific integrity in the temple of science:

In the temple of science are many mansions, and various indeed are they that dwell therein and the motives that have led them thither. Many take to science out of a joyful sense of superior intellectual power; science is their own special sport to which they look for vivid experience and the satisfaction of ambition; many others are to be found in the temple who have offered the products of their brains on this altar for purely utilitarian purposes. Were an angel of the Lord to come and drive all the people belonging to these two categories out of the temple, the assemblage would be seriously depleted, but there would still be some men, of both present and past times, left inside.

 

[No-name]

Einstein went on to outline three states of religious development, starting with the religion of fear that moved primitive people, and which in due course became the moral religion whose driving force was social feelings. This in turn could become the "cosmic religious sense ... which recognizes neither dogmas nor God made in man's image." And he then put the key to his ideas in two sentences. "I assert that the cosmic religious experience is the strongest and noblest driving force behind scientific research." And, as a corollary, "the only deeply religious people of our largely materialistic age are the earnest men of research

(source misplaced...from Ronald W. Clark's "Religion and Science.")

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Although I hesitate to compare myself to the great man, his religious convictions seem very similar to mine. They boil down to faith in the scientific method and a sense of awe at the beauty of Nature - not just visual beauty, but beauty in the mathematical laws governing Nature. This kind of 'religious' feeling (I would rather use the word 'spiritual') is beautifully simplistic - it needs no trappings of organised religion. While I can't begin to imagine a world without organised religion, I'm glad that my personal world can be religion-free.

 

[scieck]

In the Hitler example, the Jews were the victims, not the perpetrators. Are you suggesting that we should rid the world of religion just so people like Hitler couldn't use it to define their victims? Hitler was applying the science of eugenics.

Hitler was a mad man (obviously), he was using any possible propaganda to find excuses to murder Jewish, that included both eugenics and religion.

You are suggesting that the world would be better off without religion. I disagree. I am saying that many, many people find that it enriches their lives. The fact that you find other ways of enriching your life is great. You want to do sports, poetry or science and it makes you happy, go for it. If they begin to matter, people will kill over these things too. (Killing for poetry? I don't think that happens too often.)

Do you often miss interpret what people write to use it at your own advantage as an argument ?

The fact that you admit to despising religion is interesting, but a bit sad. I don't like plain yogurt though, I just don't spend time and energy trying to rid the world of it.

Says who that i spend time and energy trying to rid the world of it ? Just you Sabro.

I think religion has its place, as i have said in previous post, however i find interesting how people still fall for it.
If we only had more faith in our self as human beings, and if only we could start to take more responsibility for our own action then we wouldn't need to reach for the supernatural, to find excuses, forgiveness or love.
Look around you, there are people like you, they love, they hate they suffer, in them you can find forgiveness, joy, love, strength, charity, compassion, they can make you proud of being a human being, and ok sometime they can make you sad and ashame, but i am prepared to take the whole package from human beings.
But i am not prepared to take the whole package from and organization (mostly Christian and Islamic) full of nonsense rules, that set out to do what we should be doing anyway.
I know there are out there religion organization that cannot be associated with any wrong doing, although probably not even with a great deal of good doing, but more to a kind of personal growing, well i want to clarify that i don't despise those religions.

I would tend to think that after the various religious belief systems have gone through the sieve so that only the religion element is left, science and religion can tie the knot.

I can imagine all the elements of religion than will be court in the sieve, but please which one is this religion element left that will tie the knot with science ?

 

[No-name]

For me the bad points are more than just attached to religions, religions have really proactively earned them, and they hang over them greatly overshadowing the good points that you are mentioning.
...
Do you often miss interpret what people write to use it at your own advantage as an argument ?...

Says who that i spend time and energy trying to rid the world of it ? Just you Sabro.

You seem to be getting snippy. I interpreted this thread, and your agreement with Thor's assessment that religion somehow negatively contributes to humanities existence, as we would be better without it. It is an assumption on my part, and if it is mistaken, I appologize. The Hilter reference was to religion somehow contributing to his killing of the Jews-- which since the Jews were the victims in the matter, I wonder how you were blaming this on the existence of religion and how this fits in with the religion contributing to violence, war, and horible things category. My main point in responding to this is that it does not fit this thesis.

My point is that I disagree. I don't think the world would be better off without religion.

I can't argue your experiences with organized religion. Organized Christianty has done enough to earn your spite and distrust. Although your experience with Christianity may have been negative, and that it is a religion of "nonsense rules, that set out to do what we should be doing anyway." But my experience is that it is a religion of great freedom-- and far from a list of rights and wrongs.

If you look for the negatives you will find them. I you look for the positives I think you will find they abound. Our world view is extremely seceptable to confirmational bias. Fighting this to look at things from a different perspective is difficult.

You may see a world of great basilicas and priests in new Mercedes, the good works I see my little church in Redlands such as the food bank, children's ministries, marriage counseling, and care ministry are repeated hundreds of times over by hundreds of other little churches (I'm certain London has them too) as well as the building of hospitals, schools, the care of the elderly, sick, and parentless... I'm near Loma Linda University and Hospital- a seventh day adventist hospital that takes all patients regardless of their ability to pay. I give to World Vision- to a mission to help kids in Thailand- get clean water and schooling. There are Charities from all kinds of different religions Catholics working hard in Central America and the Phillipines, heck, I would even wager some Hindu, Budhist and Muslim charities exist. The good religion does is aparent to the billions of adherents every day. You just need to look for it.

Ascribe the wars and inhumanities commited in the name of various religions to those religions...as that seems fair enough. But you must also give religion the thousands of daily acts of kindness and love that they inspire, and even occasionally require, as well as those borne out of personal dedication, moral conviction, and pious requirement. You can't just look at the bad. That would be unbalanced.

 

[Mars Man]

Just an observation here, for what it may be worth.

It seems to me, regarding the Hitler thing, that if the Jews had not been of that particular religious belief-system, they would not have been victims--and to that degree, the matter of a belief-system played as much a role as the crusades, the thirty years war, the Inquisition, and so on.

The Earnest Bible Students were also persecuted by Hitler because of, belief-system. The homosexuals were persecuted simply because of dislike for them, I would guess.

I think that I can agree with the spirit of what you have posted above, sabro san, yet would only point out that that is what religion could do even without the present belief-systems. It doesn't take a belief in any particular text of long, long ago, nor in any concepts of what any old cultures' laws, and so on and so forth.

 

[No-name]

Mars Man, you are correct.
Not only that, my post is too long... deleting it would seem unfair because it would make your post sound odd, since I would be agreeing with a correction...to a post that was edited.

What I should have written was far simpler:

Scieck, I understand that what I wrote upset you, but that was not my intention. Your points about organized religion are well taken, but the evil that men do, as Mars Man has pointed out, is not confined by justification to religion. People do crappy things for all kinds of reasons. And yes, I agree that good deed doing is not just done for religion's sake. You cannot however separate the teachings and religious instructions to do good deeds and be better people from the actions of their adherents.

I simply don't understand how this is a miunderstanding of anything you wrote:

You are suggesting that the world would be better off without religion. I disagree. I am saying that many, many people find that it enriches their lives. The fact that you find other ways of enriching your life is great. You want to do sports, poetry or science and it makes you happy, go for it. If they begin to matter, people will kill over these things too. (Killing for poetry? I don't think that happens too often.)