Religion A world without religion

[scieck]

There are countless examples of hospitals, orphanages, food banks, drug rehabs, summer camps, and other outreaches and ministries that churches choose to serve God by serving the neediest of the needy. It is quite common and happens at hundreds of churches in every major city. Certainly religion would like to be evaluated by its best intentions and actions.

Isn't this a bit prizing to much someone for doing its job, i mean, if churches didn't at least do that, then truly their existents would be meaningless.

As you mentioned humans don't need religion to fight wars now day, but also don't need religion to help needing people, what about all the countless charity organization non-religion affiliated ?

I like to hear and say: i have helped someone today in the name of Humanity !!
Why should it be in the name of some religion's God or God's son or "daughter" ?

I suppose humanity (or the great part of it) is not ready to have a more spiritual life, without the help of religion, and for this reason religion still has its place.

"I'm not religious, I'm spiritual. Religion divides people, spirituality unites them."

Lonesoullost3 i don't know the movie, but the quote sounds about right to me.

And of course i agree with you (Sabro) with the fact that a religion can't be blamed for the actions of its extremist fanatical adherents, it would be like blaming football for the acts of stupid hooligans.

 

[nice gaijin]

I think that if religion were to disappear, something far more sinister would take its place.

While it's true that many people have done what we'd call evil in what they believed to be were God's name. Are we to expect that such acts would not be committed if they had no exposure to the concept of religion? I'm afraid I couldn't be so confident in that assumption.

 

[Mitsuo]

Religion has it's ups and downs. Personally, I have no problem with religion. I think it's great that people believe in something, and it can really help them get through life. It can provide comfort and hope. I have a problem with the people in religions that don't practice what they preach. I see a lot of that here in Utah. I also have a problem with religions that promote violence and hate. I don't know what religions do (besides probably the radical muslim)since I'm not a theologist.
I have no specific religion to call my own. I like it that way. It gets me through life Ok.

I also have a problem with some people being condescending about their faith. If you're not of their religion, then you must be a lost soul or even the devil, and they treat you like that.

I think religion in this world is something that we can't really do without now. It's been around and practiced for some time. If religion never existed, then I think the world would of course be less conservative then it is now. But, I think we would still have our standards and morals...Hopefully.

If religion is the only thing from keeping some people from killing, stealing, raping, or just plain hurting others. Then that's what I call sad.

So if religion is for you, then go for it. If it's not, then that's fine. As long as your decision gets you through life ok.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I also have a problem with religions that promote violence and hate. I don't know what religions do (besides probably the radical muslim)since I'm not a theologist.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism to name a few.

If you're not of their religion, then you must be a lost soul or even the devil, and they treat you like that.

Or an agent of the devil. It`s one of their mind traps they use to scare and silence people.

I think religion in this world is something that we can't really do without now.

On the contrary -- it is something we should do without now. With more powerful weapons and some delusional people looking forward to the Apocolypse, some may be tempted to hurry things up a little.

So if religion is for you, then go for it. If it's not, then that's fine. As long as your decision gets you through life ok.

This is the "live and let live" argument. The only problem with this is that many in religions do not reciprocate that. Besides accosting people on streets, knocking on their doors, attempting to affect policy, etc... they also indoctrinate their children. So, the children do not have a choice as to whether it is "for them" or not. Their minds are bent to accept something which is fiction as real. Sure, when they are old enough they can reject what they have been taught, but by then they have had years of messages of fear about hell and what not. It is very hard to just push all that aside when one has been brainwashed from a very early age.

 

[Mitsuo]

Strongvoicesforward said- "Christianity, Islam, and Judaism to name a few."

Could you give me an example of the Violence that they promote? Not being smug, but I really am curious as to which specific violent acts they promote.

Voices Said- "This is the "live and let live" argument. The only problem with this is that many in religions do not reciprocate that. Besides accosting people on streets, knocking on their doors, attempting to affect policy, etc... they also indoctrinate their children. So, the children do not have a choice as to whether it is "for them" or not. Their minds are bent to accept something which is fiction as real. Sure, when they are old enough they can reject what they have been taught, but by then they have had years of messages of fear about hell and what not. It is very hard to just push all that aside when one has been brainwashed from a very early age."

I know, children are being brainwashed from the beginning. It saddens me. That's one of the downs of religion that I failed to mention on this thread.
Well I was addressing the people who, like me, have no religion, and can decide as to whether or not they want religion in their life. But, yes I should have remembered to exclude children who are born into religion from that statement.

Voices said- "On the contrary -- it is something we should do without now. With more powerful weapons and some delusional people looking forward to the Apocolypse, some may be tempted to hurry things up a little."

Well, that's pretty much the reason why we can't get rid of religion. If we did, do you know how many people would freak from that. That's what I'm saying. We are too far into it now. We are too deep into religion, which would cause even more chaos if we got rid of it now. There would be more fighting.

Religion is like a bomb with a fuse on each end. Each fuse represents a different way to go about religion. "Get rid of it" or "Don't get rid of it". So far the "Don't get rid of it" fuse has already been lit thousands of years ago. If we diffuse the "Don't get rid of it" fuse, then the other fuse,(the get rid of it fuse) will be lit. Either way, the bomb will explode.

 

[Mars Man]

One Rotten Apple Spoils the Whole Bunch...or does it?

I went to the trouble--well, ok, I cannot say and do not feel, actually, that it was any trouble, but just to emphasize my following points--to read the whole thread once again, and in consideration for each post, and its contents.

It's still rough around the edges, foggy in places, yet it really looks, so ironically, that many of the points and arguments on both sides (if you will) are correct !! sabro's points reason to me as being largely correct as do scieck's, Thor's, Revenant's, and fundimentally all the others. I would argue that a couple of points which had been touched on by Ma Cherie's #10 post, are very important here.

Jainism--founded in the 6th century BCE on the principle of ahinsa (Sanskrit for the idea of non-violence)--is a belief system. Sikhism--founded in the 16th century CE on the 'best' of Islam and Hinduism by Guru Nanak--is a belief system. Sunni-ism, Shiite-ism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Hasidim-ism, Conservative Judaism, Theraveda-ism, Mahayana-ism, Taoism among many others are religious belief systems.

The prime religious body of the classical Greek religion was a belief system just as much as that of the Romans, the Maya, Pharaohic Egypt, the Hopi (native America), the Southern Baptist Convention, the United Methodist Church, the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) and the list just goes on, and on, and on....This is what is meant by a belief system.

If anything, there has to be a re-evaluation of religion. I think the reason why there's so much violence comitted in the name of religion is because of the ideas surrounding it.

Here, I reason from the context and reality, we should read 'religious belief systems' over the word "religion" each time. And in the quote from sabro, below, as well.

At the core of every religion is a drive for better character...for a nature better than what is displayed so often.

It cannot be denied that the 30 years war, for example, had been due mostly to belief systems, rather than religion. The conflict between the Sunni and Shiite is due more so to belief systems, rather than religion. Pope Innocent III's instructions to the crusaders to 'if necessary suppress [the Albigenses of Southern France] with the sword' came from a belief system, and not religion at large.

Of course those characteristics I describe are human...if you are going to attach the negative aspects of humanity to religion [read: religious belief systems.](mine)...also attach these positive attributes.

The plea is fair enough, I'd think, yet the fact is undeniable, I reason--the belief systems are what humans have created; they are the external deeds from the human condition. Religion, that abstract conception, is an internal element of the human condition, just as are those of emotion, bonding, altruism, eros, fear, hatred, fight or flee reactions, etc.

I plea for the establishment of a new belief system, that of 'Life Essence', the focus of which is beyond historical cultures, national boundries, 'racial' elements, and closed societies less than earth-based--as opposed to, for lack of further knowledge and foresight, non-earth-based societies (ET).

More later...Please do bear with my wordiness. Good points made by others too !!

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Strongvoicesforward said- "Christianity, Islam, and Judaism to name a few."

Could you give me an example of the Violence that they promote? Not being smug, but I really am curious as to which specific violent acts they promote.

Sure. Look at the text of their scriptures and the sayings of some of their leaders.

A Christian leader will say it would be best to assasinate a country`s leader (i.e. Pat Robertson/Chavez).

Many Christians will say we should try to live our lives with Jesus as our model. Well, does that mean destroying property when we think it is right to do so? Jesus did that in the temple. Are we to give in to our tempers and overturn tables and stalls? Jesus roamed around the countryside with a bunch of armed men -- never telling them to disarm themselves. Are we to arm ourselves and let those arms be at the disposal of our tempers?

Islam: Well, recent news can highlight that -- Some Islamic countries base their laws on the Koran and feel that just for converting from Islam to another religion should warrant the death penalty.

Judaism: Oh, man, ... the Old Testement is a bloodbath. An "eye for an eye" does nothing to stop the cycle of violence. It keeps the embers of vengeance burning.

Voices said- "On the contrary -- it [religion] is something we should do without now. With more powerful weapons and some delusional people looking forward to the Apocolypse, some may be tempted to hurry things up a little."

Well, that's pretty much the reason why we can't get rid of religion. If we did, do you know how many people would freak from that? That's what I'm saying. We are too far into it now. We are too deep into religion, which would cause even more chaos if we got rid of it now. There would be more fighting.

I disagree. Nothing disappears overnight. Many people may say the same about a specific religion, but because specific beliefs may disappear gradually, there is a good chance that people won`t freak out.

As for the argument of being in "too deep" and implying because of that we cannot give it up, that is an argument championing fear and futility. If something hasn`t been working, going down the same road simply because it is a familiar road is choosing to continue what has not been working. It is even worse when that road is a fraudulent road with signs proclaiming to lead one somewhere but in fact does nothing to take one to the destination it proclaims to exist. In fact, they can`t even prove the destination exists.

 

[Mycernius]

Strongvoicesforward said- "Christianity, Islam, and Judaism to name a few."
Could you give me an example of the Violence that they promote? Not being smug, but I really am curious as to which specific violent acts they promote.

A quick read of the Bible will give you the violence that the Jews have done in the past. Mass genocide as they moved into their promised land, regardless of the fact that it was already populated. Terrorist acts while trying to gain the state of Israel before 1948, again with the excuse of it has been promised to us by God.
For Christians the crusades, the burning of heretics and genocide, again, for the many native tribes of the Americas. An excuse or the rich to grab what they could in the way of gold and treasures.
Islam it is the current fundamentalists. The man currently sitting under the death sentence in Afghanistan for becoming a Christian.
Look into the past and even the present you will find religion used as a tool for promoting violent acts. Useful word, God, seem to justify acts of brutality for many people. 'It is Gods will..', 'God says....', and the old favourite 'God is on our side'. Ever thought if God exists it might have disowned the Earth and gone off for somewhere better, I would.
On the actual OPs point. Religion is an idealology. As with any idealology it has its good points and its bad points. No different from the communist, Anarchist, Capitalist or Nazism idealologies. People will kill, die and fight for what they believe in. Remove religion you will still be left with other idealolgies that are just as violent and destructive. Human nature is the cause. Believe me I would like to see religion go, but it will never happen, because along with its bad points it also gives people hope and a connection to others. It can unite people from different cultures. An American Christian will have a common bond with a Ethiopian Christian. Their culture might be different, but their beliefs help them to have a common bond that could benefit them both.

 

[No-name]

I have to agree with part of Mycernius said... that religion is like other ideologies that people kill for.

I think that rational people will realize that these heinous acts of violence that reoccur throughout history exist with or without religion. Blaming religion for humanity's penchant for violence, inhumanity, and cruelty is convenient and usually borne out of some feeling of moral superiority from atheists, or even agnostics, but Stalin, Hitler and Mao, Pol Pot...had no problems with mass slaughter without religion. I would assert that Religion provides mere excuse and that if you examine the assertion objectively, religion is not the cause of wars and violence, but merely an excuse and justification.

Religion has added not only connection, as Mycernius has mentioned, but a richness, significance and depth to my life. The original topic of this post was something to the effect of the world would be better off without religion. I strongly disagree. I have been shown nothing to support that such a bland, grey existence would be superior to the life I have lived.

 

[Mars Man]

But if I may gentlemen; please, do take into careful consideration that it can only be said that the expressed concern is correct, that blaming religion for humanity's ills is inverted. Blaming a belief system may not be so free from this charge!

No, the capacity for religion, as an element of the human condition, is the innate property of which all things that come from the human condition are ultimately traceable to.

I will strongly argue, that the clause, "the world would be better off without religion" would equal that of, "the world would be better off without humanity." As such, we can clearly see that if we were to hold that humanity is self-survival in nature--as are all life forms, basically--that former clause is meaningless !! Religion cannot be surgically removed, in general, (technically it can be done to the individual human via brain surgery) anymore than love, hate, like, dislike, pleasure, pain, and self-awareness-bonding tendencies can.

To say that human society would be better off without simply percieved divisions, would be much truer; and that is what I would charge against most of the major belief systems of old--those which are still clung to by the greater number of human beings. They came from a very divided mindset, and it is evident in their very fiber, their very source; regardless of the ability of some adherents within the ranks of those systems to rise above such superficial divisions.

If for no other reason, I posit, it would and should be this one to carefully consider and reason out of those belief systems which include such so strongly. This would include nationalism as well, because that is also religion--in the definition that religion should be used, I feel.

 

[JoRuDeNnA]

I agree that religion has good and bad things...however I think most religions are always preaching the love to each other, humility and in general good virtues, the problem is the fanatic people who use religion in the wrong way, they use it for their own benefit, and they dont care about the consequences....I think that's the main problem, on the other hand when someone is going through a painful and hard problem or moment in their life they find in religion the strenght they need to go on...I noticed that when my grandfather died....my grandma wouldnt be here with us if she wasnt religious....she believed he was in a better place (heaven) and I think that idea is what keeps her alive....personaly Im not a religious person but sometimes I think the human being NEED to belive in something. Obviously that's just my opinion ^^

 

[Thor]

You are right SABRO, we only have to think of all the wonderful and hard work mother Teresa did for the poor people in India.
That was pure LOVE in the name of Jesus.

That's human kindness. Humans can be kind creatures. I see more violence sparked because of religion then kindness sparked from religion. The crusades, terrorists fighting in the name of allah, and violence towards homosexuality. How about the Salem witch trials?

I have been called a satanist before, and thats because I don't agree with christianity, or catholicism. I am not religious. I really dislike organized religion. I don't worship demons, satan, or anything. I can't care if my actions during my life lead me to hell if I don't believe in a afterlife. Ignorance in religion has taught my fellow classmates to think like that. We don't need direction from an omnipotent being anymore. I think people have enough common sense to know whats right, or wrong.

 

[Mycernius]

People who have accused you of being a satanist most likely do not really know what a satanist is. A Satanist is anyone who does not follow a Judeo-christian religion ie: if your not a Muslim, Christian or Jew you are a Satanist. A Satanist is not someone who worships the Satan and all his little devils, but some Christians, Muslims and Jew like to revel in their ignorance. Not even Anton Le Vey worships Satan and he wrote the Satanist Bible (I have only glanced through this, not read it cover to cover)

I think people have enough common sense to know whats right, or wrong.

Unfortunately still not enough. Plus what you think is right and wrong will differ from someone elses. Depends on your point of view. For example is Human sacrifice wrong? Incas and Azetecs didn't think so. Part of their religious beliefs. Who's to asy that they were wrong. Only the people with the better weapons.

 

[Mitsuo]

Voices said: "I disagree. Nothing disappears overnight. Many people may say the same about a specific religion, but because specific beliefs may disappear gradually, there is a good chance that people won`t freak out"

I know exactly what you're saying. I'm not saying that it would disappear over night. I truly understand that it would have to be gradual. I am saying that the attempt to eradicate religion in the world would not be tolerated by the religious. So when I say Freak out, I mean they will freak out over the thought of someone trying to take something so dear to them. Some would take action in protest and others in violence. If they already act out violence for other religious reasons, then how far do you think they will go just to keep their belief system in tact?

 

[No-name]

Since 90% of the world's population count themselves as adherents to a major religion, I doubt that religion will disappear anytime soon regardless of whatever kind of wishful thinking, prison or violence athiests apply.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I agree that religion has good and bad things...however I think most religions are always preaching the love to each other, humility and in general good virtues, the problem is the fanatic people who use religion in the wrong way, they use it for their own benefit, and they dont care about the consequences....I think that's the main problem,...

The main problem is that the religions that have visited death and tyranny upon many are spawned by books, or scriptures that lend themselves to being interpretted any which way someone wants for their own benefit. Religions and the scriptures that prop themselves up are bad because they are easily bent for nefarious motives.

Doesn`t matter if they are preaching love -- what matters is if they have or are demonstrating it consistantly. If Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, etc...loved their fellow human beings so much, why would they not sell their expensive cars, buy a cheap on with no frills, and donate the remaining money from the sale and go downtown and buy clothes and meals for all the homeless people they could find? The same with their expansive mansions or living residences. Why don`t they live frugally?

...on the other hand when someone is going through a painful and hard problem or moment in their life they find in religion the strenght they need to go on...

Yes, you are right. There are many weak people who need to deceive themselves in believing they have a crutch to lean on. Of course the crutch isn't really there, but they believe it is.

...personaly Im not a religious person but sometimes I think the human being NEED to belive in something. Obviously that's just my opinion ^^

Yes. Belief in reality and disbelieving in superstitions would go a long way towards helping all of us.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I know exactly what you're saying. I'm not saying that it would disappear over night. I truly understand that it would have to be gradual. I am saying that the attempt to eradicate religion in the world would not be tolerated by the religious. So when I say Freak out, I mean they will freak out over the thought of someone trying to take something so dear to them. Some would take action in protest and others in violence. If they already act out violence for other religious reasons, then how far do you think they will go just to keep their belief system in tact?

Hi Mitsuo,

You are right, Mitsuo, attempt to eradicate religion from the world could cause some trouble from those who benefit from it. But, actually, the assault to eradicate religion has been well underway for the last couple hundred of years. Thomas Paine in his Age of Reason struck some sensitive nerves with people of his time, as well as Rober Ingersoll and Voltaire.

Once people through off the fear of speaking out wave after wave of successive skeptics began to follow in their footsteps. In the West, the clergy have become accustomed to the skeptics and their assaults and you don`t really see anymore violent retributions for going against the Word of God (I wouldn`t try it in Islamic countries though), so I doubt if there will be the violence you hinted at. But, the pendulum could always swing back -- even in the West.

Religions come and go. Past religions have died out naturally when supplanted by a newer religion that seemed to offer more than the previous one. Slowly but surely science, reason, and common sense will eventually consign all religio-superstitious beliefs to the dust bin. Some will say they cannot see that happening in a thousand years -- well, my retort to that is: a thousand years is rather short. Besides, one cult leader and his followers two thousand years ago only numbered 13 but persistance ballooned their numbers to hundreds of millions/billion to countries spread all over the world. Numbers and time are not the point -- the point is the end game, and I think that science and reason will win the endgame.

 

[No-name]

In the end, science and reason will find faith. God knows where he can find you...

Faith persists beacause there is a real need, a purpose set from the beginning of time. And because humans will always have this need, they will always have faith. Hopefully it will be in the beautiful, the warmth and love and caring virtues personified by most religions and not in the cold hard light of science.

(Sorry for sounding sappy... I guess I'm tired this evening.)

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Hi, I'm peeping into the religion forum again, just to say hi!

... I think that science and reason will win the endgame.

Actually, I have to disagree with this. Not because I think that religion is inherently correct or whatever, but because I think that humans are inherently irrational beings. We have a certain amount of rationality and reason (some more than others), but human beings as a whole are not content with only logic and rationality. It lacks some kind of "flavor" which people seem to need.

 

[Kinsao]

I personally do not think that science and religion are opposed. I mean, it is still reasonable for someone who believes in a God to believe also in the logic of science. I think where they come into an opposition is, as Mars Man pointed out, when there comes a belief system that promotes teachings opposed to science (the world created in seven days, for example).

Big differences there are between 'religion' as a large, woolly concept, and 'organised religion', as in manmade belief systems.

Anything that's manmade is of course not only open to corruption and misuse, but highly likely to be misused, for the reasons of greed, avarice and cruelty, because that is in human nature.

The idea of there being 'a God' (or gods) of some description is very very ancient within humanity. And naturally some bright spark, back in the day, would cotton onto this and use it to try and strike fear into people, to give him/herself power over them and probably to get their money/possessions. It does make me wonder why did no one say, "Hang on a minute - you know all this 'God' business? Well, did it never occur to you that [insert tyrant's name here] could just be making all this up? Y'know, just bulls**tting us so that we'd be really scared of eternal damnation and give all our money to his damn phoney church? Uhh... do you think that could be possible?"

It's just that when people talk about religion, it often seems like there is a concept of humanity 'back in the dark ages' being blindly superstitious and easily taken in by unscrupulous religion-mongers, and, well, I find it hard to believe that human beings in those days were so vastly more stupid than our enlightened questioning atheist brethren of today. :souka: