Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Ike]

Oh, thanks for exposing your dirty sole again.

Right. When CIA sends troops to Ukraine to organize conspiracy which would overthrow the government and put Ukrainian resources into their hands, with total disregard to human casualties, it is legitimate for you. But when one advocates a righteous punishment for those international criminals and war starters he is a 'bad guy'

 

[LeBrok]

Russia has denied that it has intervened militarily in Ukraine and the separatists have asserted that they are using captured Ukrainian equipment. But American officials say they are confident that the Russian artillery, which is located in Ukraine's Krasnodon area, is Russia's since Ukrainian forces have not penetrated that deeply into that separatist controlled region. American officials also say the separatists have no experience in using such weaponry.
"We judge that self-propelled artillery is operated by Russians rather than separatists since no separatist training on this artillery has occurred to date," an Obama administration official said.
American officials say they also have imagery that shows the Russian military moving self-propelled artillery into position inside Ukraine last week and deploying them in firing position.

On the highway here, Sgt. Ihor Sharapov, a soldier with the Ukrainian border patrol unit, said he had seen tanks drive across the border but marked with flags of the separatist movement here, the Donetsk People's Republic.
The group that attacked the city crossed from Russia, and though some soldiers were convinced they had spent two days fighting the Russians, others said they had no way of knowing who was inside the tanks, or the identities of the infantry who crossed the border and advanced toward this town.
"I tell you they are Russians, but this is what proof I have," said Sgt. Aleksei Panko, holding up his thumb and index finger to form a zero. Sergeant Panko estimated about 60 armored vehicles crossed near Novoazovsk. "This is what happened: they crossed the border, took up positions and started shooting."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101951821#.

 

[LeBrok]

Right. When CIA sends troops to Ukraine to organize conspiracy which would overthrow the government and put Ukrainian resources into their hands, with total disregard to human casualties, it is legitimate for you. But when one advocates a righteous punishment for those international criminals and war starters he is a 'bad guy'

How do you know that? Nobody caught CIA agent in Ukraine. Are they that good or you are creating parallel universe in your head? lol On other hand we have many Russian soldiers caught. A very solid proof, and not a fantasy about CIA agents of yours.

 

[Ike]

How do you know that? Nobody caught CIA agent in Ukraine. Are they that good or you are creating parallel universe in your head? lol On other hand we have many Russian soldiers caught. A very solid proof, and not a fantasy about CIA agents of yours.

LOL. So he has to have CIA Agent tattoo on his arm for you to be satisfied. These are all CIA agents:

 

[LeBrok]

LOL. So he has to have CIA Agent tattoo on his arm for you to be satisfied. These are all CIA agents:

Same dreamer as you, all assumptions and hypothesis and no substance. His and your general conclusions is that people don't have there own minds and do whatever they are told by secret organizations. Your conspiratorial mind all over again. Do you see the pattern?
How do you explain french revolution and break up of european empires after WWI in absence of CIA?

 

[Christiaan]

Why would Russia do it? Neither did CIA respect any of the countries that it devastated, Ukraine included.

I don't like tu-quoque argumentation, because it's justifying misbehaviour by reflecting on others rather addressing the misbehaviour in front of you. Wrong is wrong and it is never right.

I don't defend the American policy if it does not apply to basic international law. If the US is ignoring the international community like they did in Iraq they were wrong to do so. I do not have any problem to admit this loud and clear.


Seeing the interview that you posted, I think though comparing apples with pears in this case, that there is a huge difference between handing out books that inspire people to overthrow their dictatorships and sending huge amounts of soldiers to fight a war for a rather small thug minority within the region. For instance the Donbass battalion fighting against the separatists and Russian army is anti-Kiev. Besides name one country in the recent history that Russia supports to improve democratic values... Transnistria, Georgian Ossetia and Abchasia? Wow, right press freedom all over...?!

 

[Yetos]

Hyperdneisteria (transistria) and Moldova is most strange case all over the world,
I still do not understand how it works.

2 armies in the same country!!!!!

At least there they avoid blood, not like Ukraine, which I afraid.

 

[arvistro]

You have to be blind to argue West involvement in Maydan.
Or to argue there were no CIA/MI6 involved. For in every country there are CIA & MI6 agents or so called "influence agents". Same as Russian FSB and their own net of "influence agents". Latvian own Secret Service was managed by former UK Brigade General (not sure of English term) Jānis Kažociņš. Was he MI6? God knows. Would sane person assume he had ties with MI6? Yes.
I think one can't sanely believe that Western and Russian secret services played no role in events in Ukraine

But. I don't want the war. And I want Latvia to stay in Western sphere. There can only be hope this is still true in 10 years from now.

 

[arvistro]

I don't like tu-quoque argumentation, because it's justifying misbehaviour by reflecting on others rather addressing the misbehaviour in front of you. Wrong is wrong and it is never right.

I don't defend the American policy if it does not apply to basic international law. If the US is ignoring the international community like they did in Iraq they were wrong to do so. I do not have any problem to admit this loud and clear.


Seeing the interview that you posted, I think though comparing apples with pears in this case, that there is a huge difference between handing out books that inspire people to overthrow their dictatorships and sending huge amounts of soldiers to fight a war for a rather small thug minority within the region. For instance the Donbass battalion fighting against the separatists and Russian army is anti-Kiev. Besides name one country in the recent history that Russia supports to improve democratic values... Transnistria, Georgian Ossetia and Abchasia? Wow, right press freedom all over...?!

I could not say it better.

 

[LeBrok]

You have to be blind to argue West involvement in Maydan.
Or to argue there were no CIA/MI6 involved. For in every country there are CIA & MI6 agents or so called "influence agents". Same as Russian FSB and their own net of "influence agents". Latvian own Secret Service was managed by former UK Brigade General (not sure of English term) Jānis Kažociņš. Was he MI6? God knows. Would sane person assume he had ties with MI6? Yes.
I think one can't sanely believe that Western and Russian secret services played no role in events in Ukraine

But. I don't want the war. And I want Latvia to stay in Western sphere. There can only be hope this is still true in 10 years from now.

We've sent our F16s to protect you, all 8th of them, .

 

[LeBrok]

You have to be blind to argue West involvement in Maydan.
Or to argue there were no CIA/MI6 involved. For in every country there are CIA & MI6 agents or so called "influence agents". Same as Russian FSB and their own net of "influence agents". Latvian own Secret Service was managed by former UK Brigade General (not sure of English term) Jānis Kažociņš. Was he MI6? God knows. Would sane person assume he had ties with MI6? Yes.
I think one can't sanely believe that Western and Russian secret services played no role in events in Ukraine

Yes, we can assume, in some limited capacity. But to claim, as Ike does, that all Ukrainian revolution (or any other recent uprising in any country) was orchestrated and paid by CIA is simply ridiculous. It is like saying that poor and unhappy citizens of any country don't voice their anger and opinion or act against establishment unless CIA organizes and educates them. Otherwise they are stupid morons without CIA, lol.

 

[Ike]

Same dreamer as you, all assumptions and hypothesis and no substance. His and your general conclusions is that people don't have there own minds and do whatever they are told by secret organizations.

Again, making it black and white without reason. If I said 'I don't like to eat chocolate', you'd probably spell that as 'I like to eat dirt' in your head. People do have their minds, and they tend to do what they think it's good for them. Sometimes it easy to trick them into doing something for you, while they think that it actually for themselves. For example like when you say 'step into meu van and you'll get a lollipop'. That's what's happening to Ukraine.

Your conspiratorial mind all over again. Do you see the pattern?

I don't see a conspiracy. Where do you see one?

How do you explain french revolution and break up of european empires after WWI in absence of CIA?

I don't care about Empires and French revolution, concerning this thread. For this particular event we have publicly known perpetrators. If you and I was to do in USA what Canvas did in Ukraine, we'd end up in prison for a lifetime.

 

[Ike]

I don't like tu-quoque argumentation, because it's justifying misbehaviour by reflecting on others rather addressing the misbehaviour in front of you. Wrong is wrong and it is never right.

Yes, but it was not you who started the misbehavior. Once someone jumps into your backyard and you see your daughter is on the ground and about to be raped, it's totally OK to come out of the house and smash his skull with a brick.

I don't defend the American policy if it does not apply to basic international law. If the US is ignoring the international community like they did in Iraq they were wrong to do so. I do not have any problem to admit this loud and clear.

US have an extensive history of pressing their subdues to make decisions that would legalize their criminal acts, so it's not much worth I'm giving into the fact whether something is legal or illegal anymore. And it's not because I like that, but because other countries don't give a cent about it. Strictly legally, Yugoslavia still exists, but we see what the reality is.

Seeing the interview that you posted, I think though comparing apples with pears in this case, that there is a huge difference between handing out books that inspire people to overthrow their dictatorships and sending huge amounts of soldiers to fight a war for a rather small thug minority within the region. For instance the Donbass battalion fighting against the separatists and Russian army is anti-Kiev. Besides name one country in the recent history that Russia supports to improve democratic values... Transnistria, Georgian Ossetia and Abchasia? Wow, right press freedom all over...?!

1. For that kind of inspiring, all Western governments would have you in locked up in a matter of weeks. Do you really think you and I could open a NGO somewhere in Boston, sponsored by KGB money, and print out anti-american books, start anti-american TV channels, etc...

2. None of those countries are a dictatorship any more or less then US are. It's just a matter of propaganda. I know that, because I've lived in countries which you think "were a dictatorships", and in which you think "I was oppressed".

3. Not OK to talk like that about minorities in Ukraine. Double standards.

 

[LeBrok]

Again, making it black and white without reason. If I said 'I don't like to eat chocolate', you'd probably spell that as 'I like to eat dirt' in your head. People do have their minds, and they tend to do what they think it's good for them. Sometimes it easy to trick them into doing something for you, while they think that it actually for themselves

. Are you saying that Ukrainians were happy with Yanukovych, economy and life in Ukraine?

For example like when you say 'step into meu van and you'll get a lollipop'

Is this your dark side of brain acting up again? You can't live without sick images coming to your head every moment, I recon.

I don't see a conspiracy. Where do you see one?

No surprise here I guess. You never see them where they are, just where you want them to be.

I don't care about Empires and French revolution, concerning this thread.

If you did, you would know how revolution come to existence without CIA.

If you and I was to do in USA what Canvas did in Ukraine, we'd end up in prison for a lifetime.

I think you are just a biter man, because CIA didn't pay you these millions, lol.

This is from your favorite website:

A copy of the pamphlet that was given out to opposition protestors in Kiev has been obtained. It is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...anced-color-revolution-training-group/5369906

US made a revolution in Egypt to get rid of rather friendly to US Mubarak, lol, this is precious.

They preferred Muslim hardcore guys with a good chance of Egypt becoming theocracy like Iran. It must have been a dream of every US president and CIA agents.

 

[Christiaan]

Yes, but it was not you who started the misbehaviour. (grow up, this sounds like argumentation of sibling fight) Once someone jumps into your backyard and you see your daughter is on the ground and about to be raped, it's totally OK to come out of the house and smash his skull with a brick.(this is very graphic is this some metaphor for Russia entering Ukraine...talking about double standards)


US have an extensive history of pressing their subdues to make decisions that would legalize their criminal acts, so it's not much worth I'm giving into the fact whether something is legal or illegal anymore.(you sound indeed very bitter) And it's not because I like that, but because other countries don't give a cent about it. Strictly legally, Yugoslavia still exists, but we see what the reality is.(Yugoslavia should have chosen the peaceful path of separation like Czechoslovakia, hopefully Ukraine will find a common ground eventually)




1. For that kind of inspiring, all Western governments would have you in locked up in a matter of weeks. Do you really think you and I could open a NGO somewhere in Boston, sponsored by KGB money, and print out anti-american books, start anti-american TV channels, etc... (there are tv -channels like that for instance...RT)

2. None of those countries are a dictatorship any more or less then US are. It's just a matter of propaganda. I know that, because I've lived in countries which you think "were a dictatorships", and in which you think "I was oppressed"(you can only speak for your own behalf of course).

3. Not OK to talk like that about minorities in Ukraine(well, this minority is using weapons and is pro Russia, while majority in eastern Ukraine is neither pro-Kiev nor pro-Russia). Double standards.

comments included above

 

[Yetos]

.

US made a revolution in Egypt to get rid of rather friendly to US Mubarak, lol, this is precious.

They preferred Muslim hardcore guys with a good chance of Egypt becoming theocracy like Iran. It must have been a dream of every US president and CIA agents.

I share such possibility also,
but what happened? Muslims slain the kopts, and rape the female journalists.
I do not say that kopts are the 'good guys' I say another religious cleansing.

but in Syrria case indeed involved,

the strange is that West took the Chemicals from Hassant bring them to Crete to destroy them, but did destroy the ex Iraq invasion guns, and did not dissarmed the IS, controversary armed them.

we are living 'strange days' and unkown times for us, but well known Historical,
crusaders time and islamic expansions,
observing history we realize.
soon we will need a new 'El Cid', or many Ακριτες Akritai, not a 'Lionheart'.

slave merchantry? or inhabitation of Europe?As a pagan myshelf, that is what was going on after 313 AD. you do not want to live that?

ps
out of thread

 

[ElHorsto]

But. I don't want the war. And I want Latvia to stay in Western sphere. There can only be hope this is still true in 10 years from now.

Western sphere is not all the same thing. One can be in western sphere and still be rather neutral like Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and Finland. Neutrality is not threatened by Russia, contrary to what fear-mongers try to suggest.
But I expect ethnic tensions in Baltic countries, possibly also trouble in Finland, which will be used as excuse to end neutrality. The final target is China.

 

[Ike]

. Are you saying that Ukrainians were happy with Yanukovych, economy and life in Ukraine?

Probably not, as you may be not happy with your marriage, but that doesn't mean you'd like to see your wife dead and Ricky Martin in your bed.

Is this your dark side of brain acting up again? You can't live without sick images coming to your head every moment, I recon.

Well, if someone would stop offering lollipops, I guess we'd all stop having dark images in our heads. Too bad you're always oriented on images in our heads, and not to what's causing them.

If you did, you would know how revolution come to existence without CIA.

This sentence is total bull***p. It's total logical fallacy. Do you reckon people on this website as an 8 years old?
.

I think you are just a biter man, because CIA didn't pay you these millions, lol.

Touche. Some criminals get paid for dirty deeds and mass murder, and here you are accusing me for complaining about it.

This is from your favorite website:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...anced-color-revolution-training-group/5369906

I don't know that website.

They preferred Muslim hardcore guys with a good chance of Egypt becoming theocracy like Iran. It must have been a dream of every US president and CIA agents.

I agree with your statement.

 

[Ike]

Yes, but it was not you who started the misbehaviour.

(grow up, this sounds like argumentation of sibling fight)

It may sound to you, but it's very serious to us who've lived through it, and deadly serious to Ukrainian and Russian people at this moment.

Once someone jumps into your backyard and you see your daughter is on the ground and about to be raped, it's totally OK to come out of the house and smash his skull with a brick.

​(this is very graphic is this some metaphor for Russia entering Ukraine...talking about double standards)

If you had read my post carefully you'd notice that my objection was for Russia not intervening like that. If they have done that in the first place there would be no "situation in Ukraine". Ukraine would not get violated, and it would now be a peaceful country. The problem is Russia was slow to catch up with events, and when the gunfire started it was too late to get involved.

US have an extensive history of pressing their subdues to make decisions that would legalize their criminal acts, so it's not much worth I'm giving into the fact whether something is legal or illegal anymore.

(you sound indeed very bitter)

If I had entered your house and destroyed your life, you'd probably sound bitter too.

And it's not because I like that, but because other countries don't give a cent about it. Strictly legally, Yugoslavia still exists, but we see what the reality is.

(Yugoslavia should have chosen the peaceful path of separation like Czechoslovakia, hopefully Ukraine will find a common ground eventually)

Like it had a choice. Why did EU started exporting weapons to Yugoslavia even 2 years before war started? Why did US pressured politicians not to sign peace agreements on the outbreak of the war?

1. For that kind of inspiring, all Western governments would have you in locked up in a matter of weeks. Do you really think you and I could open a NGO somewhere in Boston, sponsored by KGB money, and print out anti-american books, start anti-american TV channels, etc...

(there are tv -channels like that for instance...RT)

You're comparing RT with Canvas? RT is just a TV channel, just like Canvas had it's propaganda channels. Problem are people behind it, their financiers and their goals.

2. None of those countries are a dictatorship any more or less then US are. It's just a matter of propaganda. I know that, because I've lived in countries which you think "were a dictatorships", and in which you think "I was oppressed"(you can only speak for your own behalf of course).

And I know how did US dealt with situation in my country. Totally disregarding will of the people or international law. It pressured and armed all sides and eventually got involved with ground troops bombing everyone. If I can't speak about situation in Ukraine, that is the very same as one that happened here 20 years ago,why would you or anyone else here, except for Ukrainians, be excluded?

3. Not OK to talk like that about minorities in Ukraine(well, this minority is using weapons and is pro Russia, while majority in eastern Ukraine is neither pro-Kiev nor pro-Russia). Double standards.

So now you're an expert on the situation in Ukraine, while I can't be. Double standards?

 

[LeBrok]

Probably not, as you may be not happy with your marriage, but that doesn't mean you'd like to see your wife dead and Ricky Martin in your bed.

Why your mind always looks for sexual or sadistic analogies? Regardless, do you want to say that there is possibility that these unhappy Ukrainians are able to go into the streets and protest, just because they are unhappy with current situation? Are they able to protest without money from external sources?

Well, if someone would stop offering lollipops, I guess we'd all stop having dark images in our heads. Too bad you're always oriented on images in our heads, and not to what's causing them.

Did they offer lollipop to you, and created these images? No, I don't have them although I'm watching news every day. Seems like one needs to have susceptible mind for this type of images to take hold. It might be very disturbing by itself, and it could be noticed in every second of your posts. For all the people on Eupedia it is just you who comes up with these disturbing sexual imagery at every occasion. Do you think it means something? Do you see the pattern?

This sentence is total bull***p. It's total logical fallacy. Do you reckon people on this website as an 8 years old?

Wasn't it you who blames CIA for every unrest and revolution of last decades? If you didn't mean that you shouldn't have written that. Otherwise we can perceive this logic as very childish indeed.

Touche. Some criminals get paid for dirty deeds and mass murder, and here you are accusing me for complaining about it.

Of course not, I'm just lamenting your vision impediment to see CIA everywhere.

I don't know that website.

That is surprising, because every article I find there could have been written by you, or you could have been an adviser to the authors.

I agree with your statement.

With the statement or the sarcasm, which is a reversed logic?