The Albanian language

[Taranis]

Yes Taranis, You're right related to Albanian "q" (although in Gheg Albanian, as a general rule there is no "q"). My idea consists mainly in the role of the Albanian negative prefix "s" or "sh" (note that this negative prefix does still exist in Latin languages too, but in Albanian it is widely used. In Etruscan it has been used more widely than in nowadays Albanian).
Compare for eg. Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) and German “sprechen” (speak); Albanian "shpik" (invent) and English "speak", as well as Italian "spieg/are" (express) and German "spieg/el" (mirror) where the role of prefix "s" (or "sh") is quite clear.

Sorry no. It seems, I'm afraid, that despite all the stuff I have posted here, you still cling to your old ideas, especially the (thoroughly debunked) idea that Etruscan was somehow related with Albanian. I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.

German "Spiegel" comes from PIE *spek´- (to look), and is a cognate with Latin auspex, spectare, aspicere

There are many Indo-European root words which begin with *sp-, but the *s in there has nothing to do with a negation.

 

[Endri]

Sorry no. It seems, I'm afraid, that despite all the stuff I have posted here, you still cling to your old ideas, especially the (thoroughly debunked) idea that Etruscan was somehow related with Albanian. I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.

German "Spiegel" comes from PIE *spek´- (to look), and is a cognate with Latin auspex, spectare, aspicere

There are many Indo-European root words which begin with *sp-, but the *s in there has nothing to do with a negation.

So Taranis, 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Also since you're here 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vjeshta' (autumn) are from PIE root or loan words?

 

[zanipolo]

Yes Taranis, You're right related to Albanian "q" (although in Gheg Albanian, as a general rule there is no "q"). My idea consists mainly in the role of the Albanian negative prefix "s" or "sh" (note that this negative prefix does still exist in Latin languages too, but in Albanian it is widely used. In Etruscan it has been used more widely than in nowadays Albanian).
Compare for eg. Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) and German “sprechen” (speak); Albanian "shpik" (invent) and English "speak", as well as Italian "spieg/are" (express) and German "spieg/el" (mirror) where the role of prefix "s" (or "sh") is quite clear.

In Italian, spiegare is to explain -.......... spiegazione is explanation

express is espresso

 

[Hal Fao]

I've demonstrated clearly that Albanian is an Indo-European language, a very unique one at that with a highly distinctive set of sound laws, one that has borrowed many loanwords from languages it interacted with. But it has nothing to do with Etruscan, which is beyond any doubt a non-Indo-European language. In fact, I can say with certainty that with all the many languages Albanian borrowed words from (Classical Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkish, etc.), Etruscan is not one of them.

Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?
What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

 

[zanipolo]

Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?
What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

Because the bavarians in augsburg gave the word to venetians who called it Spiegar who then was taken by Dante into the Italian language adding a vowel in the 13th century.

Are you trying to say germans and albanians are one?

maybe its due to loan words , then again "germanic" migratorory people passed by the area in the past

 

[Taranis]

Italian "spieg/are" and German "spieg/el" have the same wordroot "pieg" (or *peg-). Anyway, I'd like to ask you: Do you think Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) cognates with (or borrowed from) German "sprechen"?

Yes, I think that Albanian "spreh" is a Germanic loanword. It's unlikely to be from German however.

What do you mean with "Albanian unicality" (except the fact of its numerous PIE words)?

Albanian is actually unique by rather the opposite: that it has so few "native" (PIE) words and a large number of borrowed words in it's vocabulary. What also make Albanian rather unique is that it is today isolated inside the Indo-European languages, with no close living relatives.


Anyways, I would like to lay focus on one very peculiar aspect, namely the words for family relatives. These are highly constant and indeed have cognates in almost all Indo-European languages.

*pHter (father)
*meHter (mother)
*bhreHter (brother)
*swesor (sister)
*dhugHter (daughter)
*suHnu- (son)
*nepot- (nephew)

Anyways, in most Indo-European languages, it is the exception rather than the rule that these fundamental terms are being replaced, and it typically only regards individual words. However, Albanian however is outstanding here. Of the words in the list, there are only two cognates in Albanian: "motër" (which means "sister" rather than "mother"), and "nip" (nephew/grandson).

 

[Hal Fao]

Yes, I think that Albanian "spreh" is a Germanic loanword. It's unlikely to be from German however.

Well, here is the way that Albanian "shpreh" (express) or "shprehem" (express oneself) is wordformmed:
Preh /preh/ repose; rest; stand peacefully (because of being in contact with a beloved place); Shpreh (express).
Prehër /prehər/ 1-lap; 2-a beloved place to stand on.
Prehem /prehem/ stand peacefully (oneself); shprehem (express oneself).
Prek /prek/ 1- touch (v); 2- choke up; 3- hurt (v).
S’prek /s’prek/ 1- do not touch; 2- do not hurt.
Piek (pjek) /pjek/ 1- contact (v); 2- meet (v); 3- bake.
S’piek (s’pjek) 1- do not contact; 2- do not meet; 3- do not bake.
Pik (pikë) /pik/ point ;
Note that Albanian “preh” is related with “prek” (touch).
In the same way, Albanian “piek” (pjek) = “meet” and “spiek” = “do not meet” (in Albanian orthography there is used the apostrophe (s’piek) but I’m using the form “spiek”, so that the reader can easily understand that Albanian “spiek” is closely related with Italian “spieg/are” = “explain”and German “spieg/el” = “mirror”
(the same for English “speak” and Albanian “shpik” = “invent”).
Although their semantics are different, they are wordformed in the same way and contain the same wordformming elements: 1- the negative prefix “s-“ (or “sh-”) and, 2- “piek” (or “pieg”) = “meet”, “contact”.

 

[Taranis]

Although their semantics are different, they are wordformed in the same way and contain the same wordformming elements: 1- the negative prefix “s-“ (or “sh-”) and, 2- “piek” (or “pieg”) = “meet”, “contact”.

Sorry no, full stop. Every linguist can tell you that is complete nonsense. This negation that you belief to exist is non-existent. Despite everything that I and other people have written here, and elsewhere on this forum, are also completely ignoring the concept of sound correspondence.

You ignore in Germanic, there is a shift (Grimm's Law), but both Albanian and Latin are unaffected by this. Hence English "speak" and Albanian "shpik" are unrelated. In Germanic, PIE *k is shifted to *h, hence the cognate is English "spy" (where it is less obvious) and German "spähen" (where it is more obvious).

Why do you keep assuming that Albanian is somehow an ancient language that purportedly can tell us about the origins of various Indo-European words, whereas it is clear that is absolutely isn't, and that it is a modern language that acquired a huge amount of loanwords from other languages during the course of history.

 

[Endri]

So Taranis, 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Also since you're here 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vjeshta' (autumn) are from PIE root or loan words?

Taranis can i get some sort of reply for this? I'm really curious about the origin of 'Vera' and Vjeshta'

@Hal Fao

Stop with this /s/ and /sh/ negation. They in some words show negation but very few. Not every word that starts with /s/ and /sh/ shows negations.

Nga i gjeni këto teori njëherë, njera më e çmendur se tjetra...po bollë o burr se le nam...

 

[Taranis]

Taranis can i get some sort of reply for this? I'm really curious about the origin of 'Vera' and Vjeshta'

Note that this is preliminary, but:

For the first word, my best guess would be a relationship with the Latin word for "green" ("viridis", compare with Spanish/Italian/Romanian "verde", French "verte").

For the second, I would suggest a relationship with Germanic "west" (it becomes more clear if you assume that "vjeshta" derives from an earlier *vjesta). The connection here would be that west is the direction where the sun sets, and autumn is the season where the leaves fall.

 

[Hal Fao]

You ignore in Germanic, there is a shift (Grimm's Law), but both Albanian and Latin are unaffected by this. Hence English "speak" and Albanian "shpik" are unrelated. In Germanic, PIE *k is shifted to *h, hence the cognate is English "spy" (where it is less obvious) and German "spähen" (where it is more obvious).

You may be right relating to English "speak" and Albanian "shpik". But I wonder, why you passed in silence the German sprechen (speak) and Albanian shprehem (express)?

Why do you keep assuming that Albanian is somehow an ancient language that purportedly can tell us about the origins of various Indo-European words, whereas it is clear that is absolutely isn't, and that it is a modern language that acquired a huge amount of loanwords from other languages during the course of history.

When Endri asked you for the etymology of albanian word "vjeshta", you gave your opinion that it must be "west". You're quite right in the sense that you think in your own language or in languages you know very well. As a matter of fact, the old form of "vjeshta" has been "vjelshta" (the autumn) and it comes from Albanian "vjel" (harvest). There are numerous Albanian words whose etymologies are not correct. So, if I ask you for the etymology of the Albanian word "pellg" (pool, pond, lake, sea) your answer may be for the Greek πέλαγος” (sea), but both Albanian "pellg" and Greek πέλαγος are wordformmed by pe and lag (πέ-λαγος). In dialectal Albanian "pe" means "from/of/by" and "lang" means "liquid" ("lag" means "wet"). The same for the Greek word πελαργός (stork) which is wordformed by "pe largu" (in standard Albanian "prej largesie" = "from away", 'cause the stork is a pilgrim bird). When I asked you if you think that Albanian shprehem is borrowed from German sprechen your opinion was "pro" and it is quite logical, but in Albanian it's an antonym of prehem!

 

[Endri]

Also 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

 

[Taranis]

You may be right relating to English "speak" and Albanian "shpik". But I wonder, why you passed in silence the German sprechen (speak) and Albanian shprehem (express)?

When Endri asked you for the etymology of albanian word "vjeshta", you gave your opinion that it must be "west". You're quite right in the sense that you think in your own language or in languages you know very well. As a matter of fact, the old form of "vjeshta" has been "vjelshta" (the autumn) and it comes from Albanian "vjel" (harvest). There are numerous Albanian words whose etymologies are not correct. So, if I ask you for the etymology of the Albanian word "pellg" (pool, pond, lake, sea) your answer may be for the Greek πέλαγος” (sea), but both Albanian "pellg" and Greek πέλαγος are wordformmed by pe and lag (πέ-λαγος). In dialectal Albanian "pe" means "from/of/by" and "lang" means "liquid" ("lag" means "wet"). The same for the Greek word πελαργός (stork) which is wordformed by "pe largu" (in standard Albanian "prej largesie" = "from away", 'cause the stork is a pilgrim bird). When I asked you if you think that Albanian shprehem is borrowed from German sprechen your opinion was "pro" and it is quite logical, but in Albanian it's an antonym of prehem!

Hal Fao, I'm growing tired of your false etymologies, and I'm even less pleased of you claiming that I said things which I never did. You seem to have the underlying assumption that Albanian is somehow the 'mother of all European languages' and that all words in all other languages can be somehow magically "dismantled" via Albanian. It completely ignores that the Albanian language too has a history, and that the language has not been constant and unchanged over the past 2000 or 2500 years. You also completely ignore the methodology used by linguists and despite numerous examples given how things really work, even examples of how they apply in Albanian, you chose to ignore it.

To pick up your examples, even if we completely disregard that the words have completely different etymologies, unless the ancient Greeks were time travellers, it's impossible for Classical Greek to pick up words from modern Albanian.

I have attempted in this thread to appropriately tackle the Albanian in this thread and to demonstrate an appropriate amount of respect and attention to the language. I admit that I may have sporadically made mistakes in the past, and whenever that is the case, I apologized for them and correct myself. But, I have no tolerance for your pseudoscience.

 

[Endri]

Also 'shikoj' (to look) is from PIE *spek?

Why do i get ignored -_-*...

 

[Diurpaneus]

At first look, my opinion is that is a composed word. The root being the word 'ara' (basically meaning 'field' in archaic albanian or smth like 'crop field'in modern one) ('arat' plural) and meaning "iki/vrapoj arave", "run through the fields" english. I mean seeing how we (albania) were a agricultural country and undeveloped (in Industry) until the end of WW II saying for smo who escapes that he runned through the fields seems pretty logic?




Also i would like to know the roots of the words 'Verë(a)'-'Summer' and 'Vjeshtë(a)'-'Autumn'. I know 'Dimër'-'Winter' is of PIE root since i think i saw it smo on Taranis posts, and 'Pranvera'-'Spring' literally meaning 'Near summer' so the only ones remaining are this two + is there andy connection between the word 'Vera' (summer) and 'Vera' (wine)? Or just coincidences?

In Romanian
ara= to plough
arat=ploughed field
vara=summer
primavara=spring
veshted=sear

 

[Taranis]

Why do i get ignored -_-*...

It's not that you get ignored, but that I haven't found a satisfying etymology for the word yet.

In Romanian
ara= to plough
arat=ploughed field
vara=summer
primavara=spring
veshted=sear

*ar- is a common Indo-European root word meaning "plough" or "to plow".

- Celtic (Gaulish "aratron", Old Irish "arathar", Welsh "aradr" - all which mean 'plough')
- Latin "arare" (to plow, the Romanian word is almost certainly derived from this one)
- Germanic (English "to ear" - archaic word for "to plough")
- Baltic (Lithuanian "arti" - to plow)
- Greek "aratro" (plough)

What I wonder on is the exact relationship between Dacian (from which Romanian clearly borrowed words) and Albanian. My opinion is that Albanian is not descended from Dacian, but that it clearly has Dacian loanwords. In particular:

PIE *k´ corresponds with Dacian *ts (written "c" in Albanian, "ț" in Romanian) and Albanian *θ (written "th")

PIE *g´ (and earlier *g´h) corresponds with Dacian *dz (written "x" in Albanian) and Albanian *ð (written "dh").

An example of a common Dacian that shows the above would be Romanian "țap" and Albanian "cjap", both which mean "male goat".

There is also the case that the native Albanian and the borrowed Dacian word seemingly exist side by side, for example "kedh" and "kec" (young goat), even though the expected form is "kex".

 

[Diurpaneus]

What I wonder on is the exact relationship between Dacian (from which Romanian clearly borrowed words) and Albanian. My opinion is that Albanian is not descended from Dacian, but that it clearly has Dacian loanwords. In particular:

PIE *k´ corresponds with Dacian *ts (written "c" in Albanian, "ț" in Romanian) and Albanian *θ (written "th")

PIE *g´ (and earlier *g´h) corresponds with Dacian *dz (written "x" in Albanian) and Albanian *ð (written "dh").

An example of a common Dacian that shows the above would be Romanian "țap" and Albanian "cjap", both which mean "male goat".

There is also the case that the native Albanian and the borrowed Dacian word seemingly exist side by side, for example "kedh" and "kec" (young goat), even though the expected form is "kex".

I think you're right.
Dacians also lived south of the Danube(Serbia and northern Bulgaria).
There are two davas in Dardania(Quemedava and Itadava) also Thermidava in Albania.

 

[Hal Fao]

Hal Fao, I'm growing tired of your false etymologies ...

In my above post I have argued that the Albanian word "shpreh" (or "shprehem") is wordformmed as a result of internal development of Albanian, i.e. it's not a borrowed word, that it is an antonym of “preh” (or "prehem" which means "to rest peacefully" or "to stay relaxly, like dreaming or meditating").
Examples that I brought here, like:
"prek" and "sprek";
"prekem" and "sprekem";
"preh" and "shpreh";
"prehem" and "shprehem"
are Albanian antonyms and relate to each other.
I do not see any falsity here.
Even I think that the true etymology of the German "sprechen" is exactly the Albanian word "shprehem" (may be that’s the reason why you are so much tired of my “false” etymologies).
Albanian society has been very isolated and was developed on its own traditional way.
I totally agree with Dagne who says: "... the more traditional the society, the more traditional is the language ... I do not think that this feature (stubbornness) is something to be proud of ".

 

[Taranis]

In my above post I have argued that the Albanian word "shpreh" (or "shprehem") is wordformmed as a result of internal development of Albanian, i.e. it's not a borrowed word, that it is an antonym of “preh” (or "prehem" which means "to rest peacefully" or "to stay relaxly, like dreaming or meditating").
Examples that I brought here, like:
"prek" and "sprek";
"prekem" and "sprekem";
"preh" and "shpreh";
"prehem" and "shprehem"
are Albanian antonyms and relate to each other.
I do not see any falsity here.
Even I think that the true etymology of the German "sprechen" is exactly the Albanian word "shprehem" (may be that’s the reason why you are so much tired of my “false” etymologies).

Well, let us take a look at the word for 'to speak' (or other cognates) in other Germanic languages:


Anglo-Saxon "sprecan" (later "specan", which is the source of the English word "speak")
Dutch "spreken"
Norwegian/Swedish "språk" ("language")
Old High German "sprehhan"
German "sprechen"


If you look at this, it's clear that German *χ (written "ch") is derived from an earlier *k which is found elsewhere in the Germanic languages. The Germanic root form is *sprek hence. If you consider that the Proto-Germanic language shifted it's sound according to Grimm's Law, then the ancestral form was *spreg. If you look at this, there are cognates of this word in Latin ("spargere", "to scatter") and in Greek "ασπαραγος" (asparagus). The common meaning here is 'to bring forth' (in the case of "to speak" from your mouth, and in the case of asparagus, from the ground).

What you are basically doing is that you have first and foremost assumption that everything must revolve around (modern) Albanian. Why should the Germans borrow a word from Albanian if it's clear that a related word exists in other Germanic languages, and it's clear that it was shifted according to the second germanic sound shift in German?

Albanian society has been very isolated and was developed on its own traditional way.
I totally agree with Dagne who says: "... the more traditional the society, the more traditional is the language ... I do not think that this feature (stubbornness) is something to be proud of ".

I'm sorry, but it's very obvious that Albanian is not a very traditional or isolated language. If it was isolated, it would not have picked up so many loanwords from so many different languages (Greek, Dacian, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic, Turkic). What is true is that Albanian is isolated in the context of other modern Indo-European languages, in the way that there are no closely related living relatives.

You can also take a look at Albanian grammar for this: Albanian has five cases (Nominative, Genitive, Dative, Accusative, Ablative), plus a vestigial sixth case (the Vocative). This is already a simplification from the condition in Proto-Indo-European (preserved in Sanskrit), which had two more cases (the Instrumental and the Locative). The Baltic languages, to which Dagne refered to, have preserved this original condition except for the Ablative.

 

[Endri]

Hal Fao lol...not to be repetitive but WTF

1) 'sprek' as you wrote it doesn't exist in albanian. Is "s'prek" cause the /s/ in 'prek' can be substituted with 'nuk', which means in this case /s/ and /nuk/ are the same. 3-rd grade grammar and writting OMG. Hape tek faqja 26

2) 'sprekem' the same as 'sprek'. Is "s'prekem", /s/ and /nuk/ are the same so "s'prekem" is the same as " nuk prekem".

3) 'prek' and 'prekem' are not different words for god's sake. Prek is first person, singular, Present Tense Verb, Demostrative Way (mënyra dëftore) (I touch) while Prekem is first person, singular, Present Tense Verb, Non active Voice Form of Demostrative Way ('Non Active Voice form' might have been written wrong cause idk the correct translation from albanian but in albanian is "Forma Jo Veprore"), and in the non active voice form of Demostrative way the verb take the ending -em,-esh,-et,-emi,-eni,-en. This is the same for 'preh' and 'prehem' with the only diff that since they are in the first conjugation group instead of -em,-esh,-et,-emi,-eni,-en, they take, -hem,-hesh,-het,-hemi,-heni,-hen. Same as 'preh' and 'prehem' is 'shpreh' and 'shprehem'. Same Conjugation group words.
Foljet

4)'shpreh' 'shprehem' is not the negative from of 'preh' or 'prehem' cause:
4.1) shpreh means to express my self while preh means 'I rest in peace' (not necessarily dead)
4.2) shpreh is from the latin word 'expressa' (I got the latin word from Google Translate since i only knew the Italian word)
4.3) Very few words that start with /sh/ expresses negativity

Words that start with /sh/ and don't express negativity: Shi, Shtëpi, Shoqe, Shok, Shegë, Sharrë, Shkallë, Shkollë, Shall, Shami, Shaka, Shushunjë, Shkurre ect...