The Celts of Iberia

[Maciamo]

What has this anything to do with the presence of Celts in Iberia ??
If you, in the Great Britain have blondes and fair complexion it's not because of Celts, it is because of the Vikings and Germanic presence.
Pure native British were and are dark haired, dark eyed.

The current evidence seems to point out that fair pigmentation came with the Indo-Europeans, while Neolithic and pre-Neolithic populations of Western Europe were darker. In that case, both the Celts and the Germans would have contributed to lighter pigmentation.

Celts were themselves mixed with indigenous Europeans, so it's not always easy to determine exactly their true genetic influence. Germanic people also intermingled with the indigenous I1 people, but I1 were likely to have had a lighter pigmentation due to their northern habitat (or else natural selection for fairer types was strong soon after the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans).

 

[Wilhelm]

The current evidence seems to point out that fair pigmentation came with the Indo-Europeans, while Neolithic and pre-Neolithic populations of Western Europe were darker. In that case, both the Celts and the Germans would have contributed to lighter pigmentation.

Celts were themselves mixed with indigenous Europeans, so it's not always easy to determine exactly their true genetic influence. Germanic people also intermingled with the indigenous I1 people, but I1 were likely to have had a lighter pigmentation due to their northern habitat (or else natural selection for fairer types was strong soon after the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans).

The Iberians were also Indo-Europeans.

The nordic tpyes in Britain come mostly from Norseman peoples, not from Celts.
that's why this Scottish guy can't comprehend there is Celtic presence in Iberia. There are no pure Celts ANYWHERE.
The celtis in Britain wixed with germanic and vikings, the celts in Iberia mixed with the natives , etc.

 

[Maciamo]

The Iberians were also Indo-Europeans.

The nordic tpyes in Britain come mostly from Norseman peoples, not from Celts.
that's why this Scottish guy can't comprehend there is Celtic presence in Iberia. There are no pure Celts ANYWHERE.
The celtis in Britain wixed with germanic and vikings, the celts in Iberia mixed with the natives , etc.

The Celts were the R1b people who presumably invaded Western Europe around 4000 years ago. The neolithic Britons, Gauls and Iberians that preceded them (megalithic culture) were the darker types that have subsisted in a part of the modern population in places like Ireland, Wales, many places in Iberia, or Western and Central France.

 

[Smertrius]

Then , how do you explain the massive presence of haplotype R-M167 in Iberia, which is of Celtic origin.

R-M167 is a Gascon/Catalan haplotype, the least celtic regions of France and Spain. There's nothing to explain here, Iberians are a massively non celtic people, which is not a surprise.


Now about this "Atlantic Modal Haplotype" look at what you quoted yourself:

In the Iberian Peninsula [...] the highest value is to be found among Spanish Basques.

It says it all.
This atlantic connection, if anything, is a non celtic, indigenous connection.

 

[Smertrius]

There are no pure Celts ANYWHERE.

That's because the today's conception of the Celts is so wide that nearly everybody in Europe can claim to be celtic...

I, personnaly, don't think that the people in Champagne or along the Saône river have changed that much since the Gaul era.

 

[Wilhelm]

That's because the today's conception of the Celts is so wide that nearly everybody in Europe can claim to be celtic...

I, personnaly, don't think that the people in Champagne or along the Saône river have changed that much since the Gaul era.

What conception ? There is not conception
It is mainly because the Celts spread through all Europe, mainly Western Europe, it is not that hard to understand. And that is proven by the celtic ruins found in all Iberia, are you also denying THIS ??

 

[Wilhelm]

R-M167 is a Gascon/Catalan haplotype, the least celtic regions of France and Spain. There's nothing to explain here, Iberians are a massively non celtic people, which is not a surprise.

Nice, try, but the M-167 is not the only R1b foun in Iberia. What about the
presence of M-269 , the presence of L1/S26, the S127 ,
Are you saying it came magically from the Sky ?? How do you explain this non-Iberian R1b presence

 

[Smertrius]

What conception ?

That conception which confuse celticised peoples with celtic peoples.
When everybody claims to have celtic ancestry because of some "celtic" past the term Celt loses all its sense, which can lead some people to believe that all the Celts were mixed because the very vast majority of those so called "celtic peoples" were in fact celticised natives.

It is mainly because the Celts spread through all Europe, mainly Western Europe, it is not that hard to understand. And that is proven by the celtic ruins found in all Iberia, are you also denying THIS ??

So what ? The Romans did the same.
You can find roman ruins everywhere in France, French is a latin language, does that mean that the ancestors of the French came from Latium ?

 

[Smertrius]

What about the
presence of M-269 , the presence of L1/S26, the S127 ,
Are you saying it came magically from the Sky ?? How do you explain this non-Iberian R1b presence

And what about their % in Iberia ?
None of them is celtic by the way.

 

[Wilhelm]

That conception which confuse celticised peoples with "celtic" peoples.
When everybody claims to have celtic ancestry because of some celtic past the term Celt loses all its sense, which leads some people to believe that all the Celts were mixed.

Have you ever read the History of Spain ? The celtic languages were spoken in 3/4 of Iberia , but after the Romans conquest, they soon adopted de Latin :

So what ? The Romans did the same.
You can find roman ruins everywhere in France, French is a latin language, does that mean that the ancestors of the French came from Latium ?

Yes, most french people have Roman ancestry. Gallo-Roman.

 

[Smertrius]

Have you ever read the History of Spain ? The celtic languages were spoken in 3/4 of Iberia , but after the Romans conquest, they soon adopted de Latin :

Languages prove nothing, hungarians speak an uralic language and they're not uralic, you and me speak a latin language and we are not latin.

Yes, most french people have Roman ancestry. Gallo-Roman.

LOL.
Since Iberia was conquered 2 centuries before Gaul, I think that you must be even more Ibero-Roman than I'm Gallo-Roman, don't you think ?

 

[Wilhelm]

Languages prove nothing, hungarians speak an uralic language and they're not uralic, you and me speak a latin language and we are not latin.

Read again the legend of the Map : It also says ETHNIC groups.
Ok, so now are you saying they spoke Celtic but there were not Celtic people in Iberia. The celtic language appeared from the Sky. Fantastic.
By the way, the Celticity of the British Isles is based on the language.
Or, now you also think Ireland and Wales are not Celtic becuase they speak a celtic language =??

LOL.
Since Iberia was conquered 2 centuries before Gaul, I think that you must be even more Ibero-Roman than I'm Gallo-Roman, don't you think ?

No, the Roman presence in Iberia was not large, contrary to France, where the Romans had a massive presence

 

[Wilhelm]

And what about their % in Iberia ?
None of them is celtic by the way.

The M-269 is Italo-Celtic-Anatolian
The S-127 is Italo-Celto-Germanic

 

[Wilhelm]

Some history for you :

"Celts crossed the Pyrenees into Spain in two major migrations in the ninth and the seventh centuries B.C. The Celts settled for the most part north of the Rio Duero and the Rio Ebro, where they mixed with the Iberians to form groups called Celtiberians. The Celtiberians were farmers and herders who also excelled in metalworking crafts, which the Celts had brought from their Danubian homeland by way of Italy and southern France. Celtic influence dominated Celtiberian culture. The Celtiberians appear to have had no social or political organization larger than their matriarchal, collective, and independent clans. "
Approximate extension of Celts c.400 BC :

 

[Reixach]

La mayor necropolis encontrada en Europa de la cultura celta se encuentra en Espa?a, es la necropolis de la ciudad de "Ulaca" del pueblo celta los Vetones, a 20 kilometros de la actual ciudad espa?ola de Avila, dentro de la comunidad autonoma de Castilla-Leon. A fecha de hoy Ulaca esta considerada la ciudad celta m?s grande de Europa.

 

[Wilhelm]

La mayor necropolis encontrada en Europa de la cultura celta se encuentra en Espa�a, es la necropolis de la ciudad de "Ulaca" del pueblo celta los Vetones, a 20 kilometros de la actual ciudad espa�ola de Avila, dentro de la comunidad autonoma de Castilla-Leon. A fecha de hoy Ulaca esta considerada la ciudad celta m�s grande de Europa.

You are exactly right. At the moment, the Ulaca castro is the largest found in EUrope.

 

[Maciamo]

Read again the legend of the Map : It also says ETHNIC groups.

That's because the person who made the map confused the meaning of "linguistic" and "ethnic". But that's a common mistake that a lot of people do everywhere in the world. Only DNA can determine ethnicity. I don't think that this map reflects genetic subdivisions of ancient Spain. In my opinion there was already some Indo-European (Celtic) admixture in both Celtic- and Iberian-speaking peoples in pre-Roman Iberia. The percentage was surely higher in Celtic speakers, though, but none were pure Celts who had wiped out the earlier Neolithic people (haplogroups I2, E and G2a).

No, the Roman presence in Iberia was not large, contrary to France, where the Romans had a massive presence

The Roman presence was massive in some parts of France, like the Provence, Languedoc, Tourraine, Ile-de-France or Alsace (on the other hand, regions like Brittany, Champagne, Auvergne or Limousin were not very Romanised). But Roman presence was also strong in some parts of Spain, like around Barcelona (+ Tarraco), Zaragoza, Calahorra, Valencia, Segovia, Sevilla (Italica), Cordoba, Cadiz, or Merida (Emerita Augusta). Roman presence was weaker in the north-western quarter of Iberia, and along the north coast.

 

[Maciamo]

La mayor necropolis encontrada en Europa de la cultura celta se encuentra en Espa�a, es la necropolis de la ciudad de "Ulaca" del pueblo celta los Vetones, a 20 kilometros de la actual ciudad espa�ola de Avila, dentro de la comunidad autonoma de Castilla-Leon. A fecha de hoy Ulaca esta considerada la ciudad celta m�s grande de Europa.

Interesting. I couldn't find much information about this Ulaca on the web, except that it was an oppidum of the Vettones near Avila. I have been to Avila but never heard of Ulaca before.

This page says that Ulaca was the largest of the Vetton oppida (70 hectares). It does not say the largest in Europe or even in Iberia. For example, the Oppidum of Manching in Bavaria had a size of 380 hectares during the late La Tène period. The Celtic city of Bibracte in Burgundy spread over 135 ha. These are just famous ones, but not even the largest. Only in southern Germany there are bigger oppida, like Kelheim (600 ha) or Heidengraben (a stunning 1660 ha).

I feel some kind of irrational Iberian nationalism on the forum lately. What's going on ?

 

[Reixach]

En Espa?a cuando se encuentra algo interesante siempre se dice que es lo mas importante del mundo, lo mas maravilloso, lo mas grande del mundo conocido y por conocer y... tal y tal, cosas de Espa?a... no es nacionalismo, es costumbre. Lo interesante de Ulaca a simple vista es el altar de sacrificios labrado en roca gran?tica. Por cierto fue declarado en 1.931 Conjunto Historico-Artistico por el gobierno de Espa?a de entonces, no se acaba de descubrir ahora.

 

[Smertrius]

Ok, so now are you saying they spoke Celtic but there were not Celtic people in Iberia. The celtic language appeared from the Sky. Fantastic.

There were celtic (or already celticised) peoples in the Iberian peninsula, but they were never important demographically.

the Celticity of the British Isles is based on the language.

Precisely.
I've already stated it earlier in this thread (or in the italo-celtic expansion thread, I don't remember).

No, the Roman presence in Iberia was not large, contrary to France, where the Romans had a massive presence

Your knowledge of Roman History impresses me.