The Celts of Iberia

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Vallicanus said:
You are unclear as to what "Celt" refers too in a physical sense.

First you suggested Atlanto-Mediterranean, then Alpine and now is it Atlanto-Mediterranean again?

Phenotype reflects genotype to a large degree ...
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If you want to know what the proto-celtic population of europe looked like, I would suggest you look to the TOCHARIAN peoples.. specifically their mummies, as they are gone courtesy of the mongols/uighurs.

The tocharian mummies of west china are tall, 6 feet, with blond and red hair, wearing plaid kilt like fabric when pulled from the desert burial grounds in china..

since they share the modern europeans Y/MTdna in the early period burials that maintain the phenotype of europeans before the asian population became dominant,
I would say these are a pretty good indicator of pan/proto-celtic phenotype from the earliest PRESERVED era that we have available to us.
 
Maciamo said:
You can find I1 from Turkey to Iberia, but that does not make it a Mediterranean or pan-European haplogroup. Its origin is in Scandinavia. As for R-L21, it has been found in such places as Spain or Lithuania, but it is undeniable from the distribution map that it is far more common in southern Germany, Britain and Ireland..
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You are stating falsehoods..

I1 DOES NOT originate in Scandinavia..

if it did it would not have existed until the glaciers cleared scandinavia, which did not happen until about SIX THOUSAND YEARS AGO..

I1 clearly orginates from todays Balkans (as does its companion in scandinavia, R1a) and the I1a of the norse is a derivative of the balkan, or what we would today consider slavic peoples..

the I1a/R1a norse/svears are esentially slavs,
excepting the Goths, who as steppe peoples likely contribute a large portion of the R1b component of todays scandinanvia.

AS FOR the R Hg / P-312 speculation you sell, go read the post I made that refuted this story you are selling in the other thread you made these claims..

85% of all recent R Hg / P-312 SNP's results are from dislocated americans of british isles descent who know not their actual origin.. trying to untangle any meanginful historical population demographics from THEM is not at all possible..

everywhere that had a proto-celtic population.. and celtic carries such a conotation that proto-euro should be used instead, will have a R Hg / P-312..
 
carpathia said:
You are stating falsehoods..

I1 DOES NOT originate in Scandinavia..

if it did it would not have existed until the glaciers cleared scandinavia, which did not happen until about SIX THOUSAND YEARS AGO..

I1 clearly orginates from todays Balkans (as does its companion in scandinavia, R1a) and the I1a of the norse is a derivative of the balkan, or what we would today consider slavic peoples..
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It sounds appealing for a Romanian to think that I1 originated in the Balkans. However at present the TMRCA shows that haplogroup I1 is only 4,000 to 5,000 years old. What you mean is that haplogroup I* originated in the Balkans. But even this is not proven. It is likely, but no one can be sure. Actually Ice Age populations were nomadic and sometimes roamed very broad region, so the original hg I people could well have spent part of their time in southern Europe and part in the Middle East. That would explain the wide geographic range where haplogroup I is found nowadays.
 
Maciamo said:
It sounds appealing for a Romanian to think that I1 originated in the Balkans. However at present the TMRCA shows that haplogroup I1 is only 4,000 to 5,000 years old. What you mean is that haplogroup I* originated in the Balkans. But even this is not proven. It is likely, but no one can be sure. Actually Ice Age populations were nomadic and sometimes roamed very broad region, so the original hg I people could well have spent part of their time in southern Europe and part in the Middle East. That would explain the wide geographic range where haplogroup I is found nowadays.
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You are using the different naming convention for the same Hg subclades..

The fact is, I1b was populated in the balkan refugium during the time the scandinavian region was under a mile deep glacier.. so ...

while it IS possible that I1b and its progeny 1Ia developed OUTSIDE the Balkans,..
it IS NOT possible that I1a developed IN scandinavia, as we can place it in the balkans (much I1a in croatia..almost certainly the cource origin of the scandinavian I1a), as its resident in Dalmatia long before scandinavia became re-inhabitable..
 
The Celts were not Nordic-looking.
The nordic types in the Britihs Isles comes from the Vikings and Germanics, not from the Celts.
The Celts were mostly Atlanto-Mediterranean and Alpines.
 
Wilhelm said:
The Celts were not Nordic-looking.
The nordic types in the Britihs Isles comes from the Vikings and Germanics, not from the Celts.
The Celts were mostly Atlanto-Mediterranean and Alpines.
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Yes, true to a fair extent. However, there may well have been a significant red hair Celtic strain that translated primarily into auburn. You encounter quite a few auburn, chestnut and light red haired types in Iberia, particularly in the northwest and central west; Portugal (Beiras, Minho, Douro and Tras-os-Montes provinces), Galicia, Asturias and Leon.
 
Cambria Red said:
Yes, true to a fair extent. However, there may well have been a significant red hair Celtic strain that translated primarily into auburn. You encounter quite a few auburn, chestnut and light red haired types in Iberia, particularly in the northwest and central west; Portugal (Beiras, Minho, Douro and Tras-os-Montes provinces), Galicia, Asturias and Leon.
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Acutally, you can find redhaired types in all Iberia,

So, I would say Redhair is something common in all the White race, all the sub-types, (all Europeans, if you prefer to call it.)

It was not something particular of the Celts.
 
Wilhelm said:
Acutally, you can find redhaired types in all Iberia,

So, I would say Redhair is something common in all the White race, all the sub-types, (all Europeans, if you prefer to call it.)

It was not something particular of the Celts.
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I don't think that red hair is that common in places like southern Italy, the Balkans, or even in "blond countries" like Finland or Ukraine. Red hair is most common in Western Europe.
 
Maciamo said:
I don't think that red hair is that common in places like southern Italy, the Balkans, or even in "blond countries" like Finland or Ukraine. Red hair is most common in Western Europe.
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ok , I agree
 
I've read that the Irish natives (pre-Celtic) had already common reddish hair
 
Maciamo said:
I don't think that red hair is that common in places like southern Italy, the Balkans, or even in "blond countries" like Finland or Ukraine. Red hair is most common in Western Europe.
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I suspect red hair in all its various shades is more common in the Atlantic fringe of Europe. In my region of Portugal you see a good number of people with different shades of auburn and light red.
 
Cambria Red said:
I suspect red hair in all its various shades is more common in the Atlantic fringe of Europe. In my region of Portugal you see a good number of people with different shades of auburn and light red.
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Not necessarily in the Atlantic fringe. Red hair is also quite common in the Benelux and Germany.
 
This is a rather important Celtic studies work.

Published in April, 2009

John T. Koch, Tartessian: Celtic in the South-west at the Dawn of History.

Offered on Amazon.

It essentially refutes the theory that Celtic culture / the Celts originated in Central Europe.
 
Cambria Red said:
This is a rather important Celtic studies work.

Published in April, 2009

John T. Koch, Tartessian: Celtic in the South-west at the Dawn of History.

Offered on Amazon.

It essentially refutes the theory that Celtic culture / the Celts originated in Central Europe.
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Do they claim that the Celts originated in South-West Europe (Iberia) ? What are the arguments ?
 
Yes, Koch suggests that quite strongly. Over the past two years, stone tablets with Tartessian inscriptions have ben discovered by archaeologists, mostly in far southern Portugal but also in Andalusia. The writing has been deciphered as Celtic. The tablets are more than 500 years older than anything found in the supposed core Celtic cultural areas in Central Europe.

There is now a massive project underway headed by Koch and the famous Oxford archaeologist, Gary Cunliffe, as well as linguists of various sorts to confirm and expand on the findings. A first volume concerning results of the new collaborative research is due out next year.

I will post some additional material on this.
 
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Smertrius said:
So what every specialist in celtic history think is highly innacurate ?
You won't find any serious historian or university researcher who will say today that there was massive migrations from hallstatt and La Tène peoples in the british isles or Iberia. They will laugh at you. Some even think that ethnic celts never existed and that "celtic" has just a cultural and geographical meaning.

Your thought about celtic peoples belong to the past, along with Henri Hubert, Camille Jullian, and the good old Albert Grenier. That's outdated.
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Then , how do you explain the massive presence of haplotype R-M167 in Iberia, which is of Celtic origin.
Or the presence of M-269 , the presence of L1/S26, the S127 ,
How do you explain the Atlantic Modal Haplotype :
The AMH is the most frequently occurring haplotype amongst human males in Atlantic Europe. It is characterised by the following marker alleles:

  • DYS388 12
  • DYS390 24
  • DYS391 11
  • DYS392 13
  • DYS393 13
  • DYS394 14 (also known as DYS19)
A common haplotype within R1b is sometimes called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or haplotype 15. It reaches the highest frequencies in the Iberian Peninsula and in Great Britain and Ireland. In the Iberian Peninsula it reaches 70% in Portugal as a whole, more than 90% in NW Portugal and nearly 90% in Galicia (NW Spain), while the highest value is to be found among Spanish Basques. It was discovered prior to many of the SNPs now used to identify subclades of R1b and references to it can be found in some of the older literature. It corresponds most closely with subclade R1b1b2a1a [L11].
 
Vallicanus said:
What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.
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What has this anything to do with the presence of Celts in Iberia ??
If you, in the Great Britain have blondes and fair complexion it's not because of Celts, it is because of the Vikings and Germanic presence.
Pure native British were and are dark haired, dark eyed.
Also this studies on the ss-African mtDNA are either based on descendants of Slaves, or are L sublclades of Eurasian origin in prehistoric times
 
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