The Celts of Iberia

[Smertrius]

The M-269 is Italo-Celtic-Anatolian
The S-127 is Italo-Celto-Germanic

Well, I had already checked, italo-celto-anatolian and italo-celto-germanic only means that they are pretty much present everywhere in (western) Europe and Anatolia.

 

[Smertrius]

Some history for you :

"Celts crossed the Pyrenees into Spain in two major migrations in the ninth and the seventh centuries B.C. The Celts settled for the most part north of the Rio Duero and the Rio Ebro, where they mixed with the Iberians to form groups called Celtiberians. The Celtiberians were farmers and herders who also excelled in metalworking crafts, which the Celts had brought from their Danubian homeland by way of Italy and southern France. Celtic influence dominated Celtiberian culture. The Celtiberians appear to have had no social or political organization larger than their matriarchal, collective, and independent clans. "
Approximate extension of Celts c.400 BC :

Another wiki map

 

[Smertrius]

La mayor necropolis encontrada en Europa de la cultura celta se encuentra en Espa�a, es la necropolis de la ciudad de "Ulaca" del pueblo celta los Vetones, a 20 kilometros de la actual ciudad espa�ola de Avila, dentro de la comunidad autonoma de Castilla-Leon. A fecha de hoy Ulaca esta considerada la ciudad celta m�s grande de Europa.

Creo que "de la cultura celta" son las palabras clave aqui.

 

[Wilhelm]

There were celtic (or already celticised) peoples in the Iberian peninsula, but they were never important demographically.

Source ?

Precisely.
I've already stated it earlier in this thread (or in the italo-celtic expansion thread, I don't remember).

Then, if 3/4 of Iberia were Celtic speakers, how can you say Iberia has never been Celtic ??

Your knowledge of Roman History impresses me.

You arguments impresses me.

 

[Smertrius]

Source ?

University.

Yours ?

Then, if 3/4 of Iberia were Celtic speakers, how can you say Iberia has never been Celtic ??

You misunderstood me, the celticity of the British Isle is only a linguistic fact.

You arguments impresses me.

That's pretty much what i meant.

 

[Smertrius]

The Roman presence was massive in some parts of France, like the Provence, Languedoc, Tourraine, Ile-de-France or Alsace (on the other hand, regions like Brittany, Champagne, Auvergne or Limousin were not very Romanised). But Roman presence was also strong in some parts of Spain, like around Barcelona (+ Tarraco), Zaragoza, Calahorra, Valencia, Segovia, Sevilla (Italica), Cordoba, Cadiz, or Merida (Emerita Augusta). Roman presence was weaker in the north-western quarter of Iberia, and along the north coast.

What does "roman" means anyway ? If you look at the tria nomina of the roman citizens in roman cities in Gaul, you'll see that they were romanised locals.

 

[Wilhelm]

Another wiki map

Nice cherry picking , but this map is about 800 bc, before it's expansion into Iberia .
How about this :
Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions.

The historical Celts were a diverse group of tribal societies in Iron Age Europe. Proto-Celtic culture formed in the Early Iron Age (1200 BC-400 AD) in Central Europe (Hallstatt period, named for the site in present-day Austria). By the later Iron Age (La Tène period), Celts had expanded over a wide range of lands: as far west as Ireland and the Iberian Peninsula, as far east as Galatia (central Anatolia), and as far north as Scotland.[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#cite_note-1
The Celtic languages form a branch of the larger Indo-European family. By the time speakers of Celtic languages enter history around 400 BC (Brennus's attack on Rome in 387 BC), they were already split into several language groups, and spread over much of Central Europe, the Iberian peninsula, Ireland and Britain.

 

[Smertrius]

Nice cherry picking , but this map is about 800 bc, before it's expansion into Iberia .

LOL The map shows the La Tène culture which started during the V century BC.

You're right about the cherry picking though.

 

[Wilhelm]

That's because the person who made the map confused the meaning of "linguistic" and "ethnic". But that's a common mistake that a lot of people do everywhere in the world. Only DNA can determine ethnicity. I don't think that this map reflects genetic subdivisions of ancient Spain. In my opinion there was already some Indo-European (Celtic) admixture in both Celtic- and Iberian-speaking peoples in pre-Roman Iberia. The percentage was surely higher in Celtic speakers, though, but none were pure Celts who had wiped out the earlier Neolithic people (haplogroups I2, E and G2a).

No, he didn't confuse anything.
There are no "Celtic DNA". Just haplogroups which coincide with Celtic cultural expansion.
According to this :
"Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions."

No they didn't WIPED OUT; obsviously, but they mixed with the Iberians

 

[Smertrius]

Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions.

Well, once again, it's about culture more than anything else.

 

[Wilhelm]

LOL The map shows the La Tène culture which started during the V century BC.

You're right about the cherry picking though.

So, according to your map, Ireland is not Celtic ??
if I show you the map of the maximum expansion, maybe we can start agreeing on something, but you keep cherry picking everything :

 

[Wilhelm]

Well, once again, it's about culture more than anything else.

There are no "Celtic" genes.
Some haplogroups that I showed you could be related with them, which are also found in Iberia, but you refused them.
So, according to you, what % of R1b in Iberia, is Iberian ?

" It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups).

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people. "

 

[Smertrius]

Ireland is not Celtic ??

Exactly.

if I show you the map of the maximum expansion, maybe we can start agreeing on something,:

Maximum cultural expansion yes. More or less. But it's a very imperfect map.

but you keep cherry picking everything

Come on, you cherry picked, i did the same.

 

[Reixach]

Hay una teor�a de hace algunos a�os que indica que el origen de la cultura celta (incluso gen�tico) estar�a en Espa�a �qu� pens�is de todo eso? tambi�n que el origen del haplogrupo R1b1 de Y-DNA estar�a en Espa�a, el cual aparecer�a durante la �poca gracial (R1b1b2 y R1b3), es decir que la historia es la misma pero contada al rev�s, de occidente a oriente y no al rev�s. El origen ser�a la pen�nsula ib�rica, y a partir de ah� se hubiese extendido por el resto de Europa llegando hasta Eurasia as� como en norte de �frica, lo mismo pasar�a con el haplogrupo H y V del mtDNA tambi�n originarios de la pen�nsula ib�rica. Seg�n esta hip�tesis "los celtas" ser�a la poblaci�n que se expandi� desde la pen�nsula ib�rica y que lleg� a las islas brit�nicas, centroeuropa, el ca�caso y las estepas euroasi�ticas, para luego en la �poca del hierro hacer el viaje inverso y volver otra vez a occidente. Esta teor�a est� basada en criterios gen�ticos, ling��sticos (celtib�rico), cultura popular ib�rica e irlandesa pero tambi�n arqueol�gicos, ya que en Espa�a se han encontrado sociedades protoc�lticas anteriores a la cultura de la Ten� en el norte de Espa�a (Galicia y Asturias).

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

It seems that what we are forgetting here is that Celtic culture may not have originated in south-central Europe at all. Rather, according to globally acclaimed archaeologists, Barry Cunliffe and John Koch, among others, Celticity spread from southwest Spain and Portugal - the starting point region. There is compelling archaeological and linguistic evidence suggesting that the Tartessians were the original Celts. A very substantial ongoing study led by Koch, with participants from many fields, could ultimately prove that there is no Central European Celtic origin. Quite possibly, Celticity spread from the southwest to the east and north.

See my links posted earlier in this thread.

 

[Smertrius]

" It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups).
Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people. "

Ridicule .

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Exactly, there is no pure Celtic DNA. Celticity is essentially cultural.

 

[Smertrius]

It seems that what we are forgetting here is that Celtic culture may not have originated in south-central Europe at all. Rather, according to globally acclaimed archaeologists, Barry Cunliffe and John Koch, among others, Celticity spread from southwest Spain and Portugal - the starting point region. There is compelling archaeological and linguistic evidence suggesting that the Tartessians were the original Celts. A very substantial ongoing study led by Koch, with participants from many fields, could ultimately prove that there is no Central European Celtic origin. Quite possibly, Celticity spread from the southwest to the east and north.
See my links posted earlier in this thread.

Not worth the time reading, really.

 

[Reixach]

Lo unico puro que existe en este planeta es el agua destilada, los diamantes y poco mas, los seres humanos no somos puros, somos mezclas, aunque es coherente pensar que los haplogrupos que mas representan a los europeos, al menos los de la europa occidental, el R1b1 YDNA y el H mtDNA, tengan su origen en la peninsula iberica, aparecidos despues de la epoca glacial.
Hablar de Tartesos es delicado... habr?a que hablar de la cultura anterior a Tartesos, la cual estar?a relacionada con toda la cultura megal?tica de Extremadura, tanto espa?ola como Portuguesa, asi como la cultura desarrollada en Almeria (Argar y Millares) y en general con todas las culturas desarrolladas en el mesolitico y neolitico iberico. Tambien habria que tener en cuenta la ruta de la plata que es una ruta de origen antiquisimo que unia el suroeste y el noroeste iberico, desde Huelva hasta Galicia y Asturias, pasando por Extremadura.

 

[Wilhelm]

Ridicule .

Not worth the time reading, really.

You are the ridicule. You are refuting evidences because it doesn suit your agenda.