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MOESAN
12-02-12, 23:47
Sorry, I meant U152 present in Poland, as per map. It will be interesting getting subclades for Venice area and Poland to see if there are matching ones. When you look at Normandy, second map, there is also a Celtic tribe called Veneti. We might had same celtic/sea fairing tribe in 3 places: Venice, Normandy, and Poland; all by the sea. If we can find same subclade of U152 in 3 of them, then bingo! error - Veneti in gauls was settledin the present day department of Morbihan , in Brittany - they was part of the Armoric federation of tribes - AND Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further BUT VENETI HAD NEVER BEEN IN NORMANDY... AND LINGUISTS ARE NOT SURE AT ALL OF A RECENT LINK BETWEEN THE 3 VENETI REGIONS OF ANCIENT EUROPE,apart a ancient indo-european one (but this last conclusion could be matter to discussion, I agree)

zanipolo
13-02-12, 08:41
error - Veneti in gauls was settledin the present day department of Morbihan , in Brittany - they was part of the Armoric federation of tribes - AND Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further BUT VENETI HAD NEVER BEEN IN NORMANDY... AND LINGUISTS ARE NOT SURE AT ALL OF A RECENT LINK BETWEEN THE 3 VENETI REGIONS OF ANCIENT EUROPE,apart a ancient indo-european one (but this last conclusion could be matter to discussion, I agree)

while knowing more on the adriatic and baltic veneti, I do know a little about the armoric veneti.
some say that they also where from the cherbourg peninsula of Normandy , they where called Veneli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli

Caesar and some roman historians said they where associated with the armorica veneti next door.

my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
baltic veneti = from letts and balts
armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)

My only knowledge apart from Roman text is that the phoenicians of southern Spain traded with these 'gallic" veneti for tin, which the veneti got from trade with cornwall and wales

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SyhOAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1318&dq=unelli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V7A4T9nGA6TUmAW49fDwCA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=unelli&f=false

there is a lot written about them

MOESAN
13-02-12, 20:52
while knowing more on the adriatic and baltic veneti, I do know a little about the armoric veneti.
some say that they also where from the cherbourg peninsula of Normandy , they where called Veneli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli

Caesar and some roman historians said they where associated with the armorica veneti next door.

my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
baltic veneti = from letts and balts
armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)

My only knowledge apart from Roman text is that the phoenicians of southern Spain traded with these 'gallic" veneti for tin, which the veneti got from trade with cornwall and wales

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SyhOAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1318&dq=unelli&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V7A4T9nGA6TUmAW49fDwCA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=unelli&f=false

there is a lot written about them


I heard too of this link made by someones linking Veneti and Venelli - somemones know more than me about that - you could go to the BRETAGNE BERTAEYN BRITTANY / ACADEMIA CELTICA forum: there are some people of big knowledge and some interesting topics on ancient Celts -
what I think is that the name Veneti was genuine to this people that gave its name to the present day town of Vannes, Gwened in breton (it is very common that the name of a gaulish tribe became the name of the big town of the region settled by it, in place of the name of the previous historical 'capitale' of the tribe -

spongetaro
13-02-12, 22:45
Armoric was a very big region including Brittany and the coastal regions of Normandy until the Seine river mouth or even further )

Armoric included all the people located in the shores of the English chanel (French side) from present day Britanny to present day French Flanders

GloomyGonzales
15-02-12, 15:09
my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
baltic veneti = from letts and balts
armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)


Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).

razyn
15-02-12, 15:55
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by zanipolo http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=391966#post391966)
my guess is the veneti where called veneti by Romans because (a) they came from the sea , as in Roman word Venetus and (b) because Romans did not understand the language they spoke.
so, adriatic veneti = from illyria
baltic veneti = from letts and balts
armorica veneti = some scolars say early norse - related to the videli of scandinavia ( lombards)




Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).

Taken together, I think these two posts are among the more interesting on Eupedia recently. Too bad they are, relatively speaking, hidden away in a corner of the forum. This discussion is about more, and deeper, subject matter than one SNP under R1b, even if U-152 is an old SNP that proved to have had excellent adaptations for survival and growth.

Taranis
16-02-12, 15:06
Veneti, Vandali, Weneds, Vyatechi and so on are IE people that settled on rivers (people related to water).


Taken together, I think these two posts are among the more interesting on Eupedia recently. Too bad they are, relatively speaking, hidden away in a corner of the forum. This discussion is about more, and deeper, subject matter than one SNP under R1b, even if U-152 is an old SNP that proved to have had excellent adaptations for survival and growth.

You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

Veneti (Armorican tribe)
Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

The last name is not even superficially similar. I'm not blaming either of your for this, particular because people suggested this before, but I think the similarity is really superficial.

Especially if you think about etymologies:

In regard for Armorican Veneti, you can draw a probable link with the Celtic root *wen- meaning "freeman", "compatriot", found for example in the British tribal name "Venicones" or the Old Irish term "Féni" ("Irishmen", "compatriots").

The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?

MOESAN
16-02-12, 18:46
I agree with Taranis -
too often people elaborate complicated theories about origins of ancient populations relying on some phonetical similarity (sometimes comparing different periods of time which is a nonsense) in PARTS of names - similarity is a first step to search further on - not to take immediate conclusions without more proofs... I red somepart a hteory about Brittany as a Phoencician foundation with the name evolution PHENICI <> FENISI <> FENITI <> VENETIx!!! my God! I do not tell here that it goes so far on this topic, it is just to show how it can evolve sometimes

Taranis
16-02-12, 19:08
I agree with Taranis -
too often people elaborate complicated theories about origins of ancient populations relying on some phonetical similarity (sometimes comparing different periods of time which is a nonsense) in PARTS of names - similarity is a first step to search further on - not to take immediate conclusions without more proofs... I red somepart a hteory about Brittany as a Phoencician foundation with the name evolution PHENICI <> FENISI <> FENITI <> VENETIx!!! my God! I do not tell here that it goes so far on this topic, it is just to show how it can evolve sometimes

That is a very entertaining and educative example, Moesan. :good_job: This is because it is wrong on multiple levels. starts out the term "Phoenicians" is a Greek exonym. Apart from absolutely unconceivable sound changes, the initial premise is completely wrong: the Phoenicians refered to themselves as something akin to "Kana'anim" (ie, "Canaanites", after their homeland of Canaan)!

razyn
16-02-12, 19:30
I suppose I should have said, potentially the more interesting, &c. -- if true. And your objections on etymological grounds include a couple of "probable" and "may be" hedges. So, objection sustained -- if true. I really wouldn't presume to know; and I have no ambition whatever to arbitrate linguistic arguments among Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic, Italic or other specialists, in something or other.

What interests me about the theoretical concept is that a variety of cultures, many of which spoke some IE language, may have had cognate terms for "those foreigners who arrive now and then in boats." Because I think that must have happened; and it seems kind of logical for lots of distantly related groups to have had a word for it. Occasionally, perhaps, pretty much the same word.

MOESAN
16-02-12, 19:59
Ich can say you why in corsica and sardinia were so much R1b-U152. Because when corsica would a part of france, many french people come to corsica.

The demography of the native-corsican is very bad, so the genes of the french (with most R1b-U152) are dominant of corsica. Its fact.
A friend of my parents is a real corsican (with french ancestors) and his wife a austrian. So many corsican with french ancestors, live on corsica.
The statistics about the haplogroup distribution are from the new-time.
So do you understand what i want so say?

How exact it is on sardinia, i dont know. But i think we must include modern migrations, because all the haplogroup statistics, dont exclude this migrations f.e. since the 18. century.

sorry but it is naive:
if modern Corsicans have a lot of French or other foreign genes, it almost exclusively byt the mother's lines - they keep even today their italian surnames and Corsicans are most patrilienar than the contrary and very patriarcal too - If ancestral origins are taken in account in DNA surveys and I think they are, so the Y-DNA of the island is as a whole a genuine enough corsican one -
and metrics surveys about the 1930-1940's proved that the corsican population ot these times was very original: dolichocephalic (IC-76 from 73 tà 78 depending on regions) when France was 83 as a mean with maxima about 87-88..., minimals being in french Roussillon-Rossilyô (Catalunia): 78-80, and Perigord-Dordogne 78-80 -
the high frequence of very brown eyes (uncommon enough among Frenchies) and true black hair is to be linked to this dolichocephaly ('mediterranean' influence), even if light and middle hues (dark blond: 4-5%, dark brown principally, blue eyes 8-9% and dark green-brownish eyes principally) are not uncommon, the principal dark componant is different from the dominant dark one on the continent, France or in some way Italy -

Taranis
16-02-12, 20:01
I suppose I should have said, potentially the more interesting, &c. -- if true. And your objections on etymological grounds include a couple of "probable" and "may be" hedges. So, objection sustained -- if true. I really wouldn't presume to know; and I have no ambition whatever to arbitrate linguistic arguments among Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Celtic, Italic or other specialists, in something or other.

To be honest, I have raised those personal objections only because I cannot provide you (offhand, anyways) with quotable sources. For instance, you can look up the term "Fení" in literature (or in a dictionary of Old Irish) and I can also provide you with a paper on the etymology of "Venicones" (Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies 29, 1982, p. 87), but I couldn't offhand think of a quotable source that endorses my etymologies. I can get back to that, however.


What interests me about the theoretical concept is that a variety of cultures, many of which spoke some IE language, may have had cognate terms for "those foreigners who arrive now and then in boats." Because I think that must have happened; and it seems kind of logical for lots of distantly related groups to have had a word for it. Occasionally, perhaps, pretty much the same word.

As I have demonstrated, there's no particular reason to assume it really is the same word. Especially, to pick up the example, the Baltic Venedi of Antiquity and the Wends of the Medieval ages were clearly two different people. Also the connection as "foreigners who arrived by sea" clearly isn't the case with the West Slavic Wends.

MOESAN
16-02-12, 20:05
That is a very entertaining and educative example, Moesan. :good_job: This is because it is wrong on multiple levels. starts out the term "Phoenicians" is a Greek exonym. Apart from absolutely unconceivable sound changes, the initial premise is completely wrong: the Phoenicians refered to themselves as something akin to "Kana'anim" (ie, "Canaanites", after their homeland of Canaan)!

thanks to have precised what I had omitted: the very first premice of this chain of hazardous comparisons was based on an external naming (exonyme) that never was employed by true Phoenicians! (error at 2 different logical levels)

razyn
16-02-12, 21:45
the connection as "foreigners who arrived by sea" clearly isn't the case with the West Slavic Wends.

I said "in boats," not "by sea," so I don't know what your quotation marks have to do with this. (Another guy said something earlier about the sea, but not this.) Anyway, y'all enjoy arguing with each other, and I wouldn't dream of interfering. Even that is interesting, in a pedantic sort of way.

julia90
16-02-12, 23:10
I think that if one wants to have a look at gallic genes in Veneto.. one has to look at Carni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni
Venetic people were for sure not gallic..

The Carni are the ancestors of Slovenes and some southern Austrians

As for the Triveneto, they populated all Friuli and the eastern part of modern veneto:
"They received then the permission to populate and colonize the plain between the Julian pre-Alps and the Livenza (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Livenza&action=edit&redlink=1) river they had already tried to occupy previously in conflict with both the Romans and Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti)."

razor
17-02-12, 04:08
You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

Veneti (Armorican tribe)
Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

The last name is not even superficially similar.

"Vyatichi" is actually the East Slavic denazalized rendition of something like VENT-ICHI. There are many examples of such. Off the top of my head I can remember Porphyrogenitos' "Sventostlabos" (the historical /later history/ "Svyatoslav" et sim. Acc. to the old Kyivan chronicle, these VYATICHI/VENTICHI were migrants "from the Lyakhs" (=Poland by most interpreters). Baltic Venedi? Who knows? Belorusan archaeologist Nosevych might be sympathetic to such a view, but it's a tricky thing indeed. There is a river Venta in Latvia. Is there also one in Poland?

zanipolo
17-02-12, 07:28
You may call me a sceptic, but I think there's really no connection between these. You just take superficially similar-sounding names out of context and assume a connection:

Veneti (Armorican tribe)
Veneti (Adriatic tribe/ethnic group)
Vandali (East Germanic tribe)
Venedi (Germanic exonym for Baltic? tribes)
Wends (German exonym for West Slavic tribes)
Vyatichi (Slavic tribe)

The last name is not even superficially similar. I'm not blaming either of your for this, particular because people suggested this before, but I think the similarity is really superficial.

Especially if you think about etymologies:

In regard for Armorican Veneti, you can draw a probable link with the Celtic root *wen- meaning "freeman", "compatriot", found for example in the British tribal name "Venicones" or the Old Irish term "Féni" ("Irishmen", "compatriots").

The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?

you forgot Venetae which if you read the lithuanian history going backwards from the middle ages, reads that they comprised of the
livs = livonians
ests = estonians
kars = curonians
lats = latvians
sambians = prussians
samogitians = prussians
and others
all these are named as Venetae from only 600AD

zanipolo
17-02-12, 07:32
I said "in boats," not "by sea," so I don't know what your quotation marks have to do with this. (Another guy said something earlier about the sea, but not this.) Anyway, y'all enjoy arguing with each other, and I wouldn't dream of interfering. Even that is interesting, in a pedantic sort of way.

I stated that Venetus is Roman for blue and green sea colour, and also Roman word of Venire which mean to come or have come from.
So veneti in Roman documents would mean , having come from the sea.

There is also Lacus Venetus ( Lake Constance), either named due to its size and roman thinking it was the sea, OR as recently stated, the lake of the Veneti

zanipolo
17-02-12, 07:37
I think that if one wants to have a look at gallic genes in Veneto.. one has to look at Carni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni
Venetic people were for sure not gallic..

The Carni are the ancestors of Slovenes and some southern Austrians

As for the Triveneto, they populated all Friuli and the eastern part of modern veneto:
"They received then the permission to populate and colonize the plain between the Julian pre-Alps and the Livenza (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Livenza&action=edit&redlink=1) river they had already tried to occupy previously in conflict with both the Romans and Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti)."

Recent Italian studies ( and I am waiting for written report) is that the Vindelica, raeti and veneti where one major Alpine group , who was divided by the invasion of the Carni and Taurisci from modern Switzerland. The taurisci ended up in Noricum ( near Vienna) and the carni went down the Alps dividing italy from Slovenia ( old name - Montes Venetus, later called julian alps in Roman times).
The Carni as you say settled in friuli and western slovenia.
The taurini another name for taurisci invaded piemont at the same time ( this is prior the celtic invasion)

zanipolo
17-02-12, 07:44
dna, IIRC the Armonica veneti and adriatic veneti share M253, unsure on the baltic venedi

In regards to Vandals, I keep reading they where originally scandinavian people who settled in east germany and created a confederation called Vindili, these comprised of goths, burgundians, heruli, rugii, lombards, gepids, lugii, cotini

5485


Norse name was Venr as a tribal people, there is talk about early norse wanderings into Armorica

zanipolo
17-02-12, 08:02
"Vyatichi" is actually the East Slavic denazalized rendition of something like VENT-ICHI. There are many examples of such. Off the top of my head I can remember Porphyrogenitos' "Sventostlabos" (the historical /later history/ "Svyatoslav" et sim. Acc. to the old Kyivan chronicle, these VYATICHI/VENTICHI were migrants "from the Lyakhs" (=Poland by most interpreters). Baltic Venedi? Who knows? Belorusan archaeologist Nosevych might be sympathetic to such a view, but it's a tricky thing indeed. There is a river Venta in Latvia. Is there also one in Poland?

the issue with the venedi being slavic is very very sceptical because they where only recored from 375BC to 200AD when they where assilimilated into gothic society/armies and basically disappeared as a tribe .

further reading says they became the Vidivarii

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

something from Jordanes, which I do not believe, but these Vidivarii ended up being the baltic prussians

zanipolo
17-02-12, 23:35
also note that the Veneti where also noted as illyrian by herodus or still from trojan lands. There is a gap between 1187BC end of trojan war and the latest venetic finds from 1025BC

Publius Vergilius Maro (15.10.70 – 21.9.19 B.C.)

Antenor potuit mediis elapsus AchivisIllyrios penetrare sinus atque intima tutusregna Liburnorum et fontem superare Timavi.

Antenor escaped from the midst of the Greeks, has been able safe to penetrate the Illyrian bays and the inmost realms of the Liburnians and to pass beyond the fountain of Timavus

Illyridos penetrare sinus”. Antenor non Illyricum, non Liburniam,sed Venetiam tenuit. Ideo autem Vergilius dicit “Illyricos sinus”, quod inde venit quidamHenetus rex, qui Venetiam tenuit, a cuius nomine Henetiam dictam posteri Venetiam nominaverunt
“To penetrate the Illyrian bays”. Antenor was not headed for Illyria, nor for Liburnia,but for Venetia. This is why Virgil says: “Illyrian bays”, because from that came a certain king Henetus who took Venetia, that has the name Henetia from him that was named by later people venetia

Romans mention Tropaeum Alpium and the 45 alpine tribes.

page 543 notes the towns in modern bavaria which where called Passau and Pons Aeni to name 2 . Passau was later changed to boiodurum and it was stated in 15BC , publicum portorium illyrici

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=JZLW4-wba7UC&pg=PA471&dq=Tropaeum+Alpium&hl=en#v=onepage&q=passau&f=false

In regards to Illyrians, the more I read, the more I see this an unlikely name of these people. My guess is that it refers to a form similar to Italians. In that when delving into Roman detail, they have Illyrians which are
north west = Luburnians
west = Dalmatians
east = Pannonians
south = Dardanians


EDIT: quotes from here
http://www.mek.oszk.hu/05100/05110/05110.pdf

this deals with raeti, etruscan, venetian languages, migrations of these peoples , dna and a lot more
its a good read even though its 167 pages
also deals with southern germanic languages

dublin
31-05-12, 11:35
here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.



SAINTDATA:Columban, abbot and missioner, Born in Leinster (Ireland), c. 540; d.at Bobbio, Italy, 640; feast day 23 November. [*Note that, despiteJonas' assertion that Columban was also known as "Columba",he is distinct from St. Columba, founder of Iona, born in 521, d.597, and whose feast day is June 9.]





56.
OnceColumban though going to the land of the Wends, who are also called Slavs, in order to illuminate their darkened minds with the light ofthe Gospel and to open the way of truth to those who had alwayswandered in error. When he proposed to make his vows, the angel ofthe Lord appeared to him in a vision, and showed him in a littlecircle the structure of the world, just as the circle of the universeis usually, drawn with a pen in a book. "You perceive," theangel said, "how much remains set apart of the whole world. Goto the right or the left where you will, that you may enjoy thefruits of your labors." Therefore Columban remained where hewas, until the way to Italy opened before him.





http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp)

zanipolo
31-05-12, 12:30
here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp)

this is in the wrong thread..please remove and place in correct thread

dublin
31-05-12, 15:09
zanipolo why is this in the wrong thread? the thread is about


Sorry, I meant U152 present in Poland, as per map. It will be interesting getting subclades for Venice area and Poland to see if there are matching ones. When you look at Normandy, second map, there is also a Celtic tribe called Veneti. We might had same celtic/sea fairing tribe in 3 places: Venice, Normandy, and Poland; all by the sea. If we can find same subclade of U152 in 3 of them, then bingo!

i am just saying that the connection is slavic not celtic.

dublin
31-05-12, 16:09
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg-Schwerin)). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393)

and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309)

This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.

LeBrok
31-05-12, 18:06
here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp)

This is in line with known chronology. Slavs reached Baltic by 6 the century, got mixed with Vikings, leaned how to built boats from them, and started to have contacts with people from around Baltic and North Sea. However, when you check list of shipwrecks from Polish coast, one can figure out that the Height of Slavic Navy comes later, around 10-11 century. From written record of this time we know that Norse/Danish Vikings were a dominant force over North and Baltic Seas all the time.

To have an idea how Baltic cultures were connected through Vikings and Viking culture, here is an excellent read about Olaf Tryggvason and his Irish and Wendish wifes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Norway
Tryggvason, hmmm, maybe his slavic name was Tryglavson?

zanipolo
31-05-12, 20:21
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg-Schwerin)). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393)

and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309)

This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.

Wendish means ( and its only arose from the 6th century AD ) anyone east of the germanic people, even the baltic people. The danes and swedes have a claim on this fabricated name by jordanes. they owned these lands, estonia, samogitia, osel, latvia etc etc . In the peace of westphalia in 1648 , the swedes where given baltic lands due to this claim.
Even the vistula goths of 200AD ( who got rid of the Venedi) where called wends.

In regards to slavic people in pommerania, they arrived around 500-600AD after the departure of the east germanic tribes to the balkans and the west. the void was filled by people who spoke slavic or a form of slavic.

Slavic means a linguistic term and nothing more, genetically only poles and ukraines are slavs and this is from slavic scholars.

Serbs are genetically thracian, the byzantine written records show they are thracian, the romans know of no slavs or serbs on any of their eastern empire

I think you need to read the pro-slavic link i presented in the other thread and even this is against your theories.

the balts where the maritime people, as I stated before you are trying to eliminate the balts and replace them with the slavs
http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/gimbutas-03.html

LeBrok
01-06-12, 02:02
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg-Schwerin)). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393)

and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309 (http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309)

This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.

Actually, when you think about this, the 2300 years old crown doesn't imply that it was made in Pomerania. Let's ask ourselves a question: How hard it is to move this small (5") crown from place to place? Let's say if you are a slavic prince and take part in slavic expansion from Ukraine to Pomerania (in this example) wouldn't you pack your royal crown with you?
So we know that crown is 2300 years old but we don't know where it was made, do we?
If you find a slavic "gorod" or a castle in Pomerania of 2300 years old, we will believe you that it was in Pomerania for that long time. With a crown, unfortunately, you don't have a case.

On the top of your discomfort with this crown, I would like to point a little "detail", that it comes with an emblem of slavic god Perun. You see, the most important god of Pomerania, the Triglav, is not embedded in it. Why is that?
As I mentioned before, the Triglave is not a slavic god, and it doesn't have a proper god name, therefore the proper place in slavic royal crown. Trinity is more of Celtic or Celtic-Germanic origin and was common in Gaul France and Greece. I showed you in the other thread the most common places the Triglav was found, and it wasn't in slavic lands, but Celtic. Did you ignore most common archaeological finds of Triglav, or more properly gods trinity, triad, the troyka?

how yes no 3
02-06-12, 14:53
As I mentioned before, the Triglave is not a slavic god, and it doesn't have a proper god name, therefore the proper place in slavic royal crown. Trinity is more of Celtic or Celtic-Germanic origin and was common in Gaul France and Greece. I showed you in the other thread the most common places the Triglav was found, and it wasn't in slavic lands, but Celtic. Did you ignore most common archaeological finds of Triglav, or more properly gods trinity, triad, the troyka?

there is no Celtic and Slavic and Germanic religion that can be set completely apart...
they are all derived from same religion of proto-indo-european people...

e.g. Slavic Perun is derived from the same deity as Baltic Perkunas, Luwian Tarhun, Celtic Taranas, Hattian Taru, Germanic Thor.


I do not see how someone can claim that 3-headed deity belongs to one branch of a religion but not to other branch...
if it exist in two branches, clearly most logical explanation is that it comes from their parent branch in both...

3 headed deity is among Slavic deities, and in Celtic as well...
the argument that Triglav doesnot have a functional meaning in Slavic is ridicilous....
Triglav = 3 heads
but 3 heads that see 3 main worlds: sky, earth and underworld.

do not forget that word "glavno" = main , key
so this is a deity with view in 3 main areas...

while Svetovid (svet = world, vid = to see) was a God who had 4 heads and was looking in 4 directions... he was not in the main view with look into all 3 key subworlds of indo-european religions (sky, earth, underworld) , he was inside one of the 3 subviews and there he could look in 4 directions (space dimension in 2d world as in crossroads...i would not relate it to 3D space plus time model though it may be).. ...


if we would ask for deities to have names with clear functional meaning in the associated languages, how do you explain names of the most Celtic deities that are not at all translatable via Celtic words? while Slavic words give match to function of those deities... does it mean that Celtic religion comes from Slavs?


Religious believes can also help us to identify certain ethnic groups in the antiquity.Before the coming of the Christianity different people worshiped more or less different eities. Gauls to whom Atlantic Veneti belonged worshiped a three-headed god. Depictions can be seen on their coins [24], p. 181 and on stone sculptures [15], p. 215. It is undoubt-edly the same one as
Trimuziatin of Adriatic Veneti [14], p. 297, which closest equivalentin my opinion was Slavic god Triglav (with meaning
three-headed ). Neither Welsh nor Gaelic speaking people had such a deity.
Belenos was another important Gaulish god. His name means the bright, white one [15], p. 30 and his closest equivalent is Slavic Belobog. the name of this deity can’t be explained in Irish, Scottish, or Welsh language. In these languages
white is respectively FEN, BAN, GWYN.There are many more Celtic gods,which names are easy to be explained from Slavic languages as Bulgarian, Slovene, Russian etc.
ALAUNUS was a sun-god [25], his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Russ.) word ALEN
red
.
ALISANOS was god of the alder trees [26]; his name corresponds to Bulgarian word
ELSHA alder tree
.
VETEROS was wind-god revered in Britain [27]; his name corresponds to Common Slavic word VETER - wind
.
IALONUS was a earth-god [15], p. 124; his name is connected with Old Church Slavonic word ILĂ earth, mud
.
VASIO
was another agriculture-god [15], p. 218; his name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic word VĂSĂ - earth, village, mansion
VAS is Modern Slovenian word for village
.
BEISIRISA means the bright one [15], p. 127; his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Sl.Serbo-Croat) word BISER pearl (shiny object)

LOUCETIUS means The bright one [15], p. 142, and his name corresponds best to Slovene word LUČ light
. Old Church Slavonic verb LUČITI to light, to shine
is also related tot he name of LUCETICUS.

LATOBIUS means the bright one [15], p. 130; his name corresponds to Bulgarian words LJATO summer and LĂŠTJA to shine
.
VOROCIOS was e healer-god [15], p. 144; his name corresponds to Slovene, Bulg. Russ.word VRAČ healer
.
PRITONA was goddess of bridges [15], p. 176, her name corresponds to Common Slavic word BROD bridge, ford
.
SEQUANA was a river-goddess [15], p. 188, her name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic verb SIKATI to water
.
LATIS was goddess of the marshes and pools [15], p. 130, her name I connect to Common Slavic word BLATO marsh
.
GLANIS was god of the healing springs [15], p. 105, his name is connected with OldBulgarian word GLENĂ moist, wet and Slovene GLEN mud.
Here I have to mention that a lot of springs have mud with healing qualities.

VERBEJA was goddess of the willows [15], p. 219, her name is connected with Bulgarian word VĂRBA willow, Slovenian VRBA willow, Russian VERBA willow.

VERNOSTONOS was revered in Britain [15], p. 219, his name means the one who makes the alder trees groan
His name corresponds to Bulgarian words BOR, BORINA fir tree and STON groan
.
RUDIAN was war-god, which name means the bloody one [15], p. 181. RUDIAN cor-responds to Old Russian word
RUDA blood
.
SMERTRIUS, or MARS SMERTRIUS was another war-god [15], p. 193, which name I connect with Common Slavic word
SMERT death. M. J. Green [15] connects his name with the abundance, provision, but it seems to me that it is more logical to connect awar-god with death, not with abundance and provision.

SUCELLUS was a smith-god, his name means Good striker
[15], p. 200. the particle SU corresponds to Gaulish word SU good and Bulgarian HUBAV good , CELL (US) cor-responds to Bulgarian verb KLEPAM I strike, Slovene verb KLEPATI to hit, to strike,and Bulgarian and Slovenian word KLEPALO
hammer.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov

truth is somewhat different....both Slavic and Celtic religion are inhereted from proto-indo-european religion
names of deities in that religion are related to PIE dictionary......
most of those words do still exist in Slavic languages that are considerably closer to original proto-indo-european than Celtic languages....
most of those words do not exist in Celtic languages anymore...

dublin
02-06-12, 19:32
Tryggvason, hmmm, maybe his slavic name was Tryglavson?
Well if Valdemar is Vladimir then Tryggvason could be Tryglavson.
Lots of Danish kings had a name of Valdemar, which was a Slavic name Vladimir, which according to the Danish historians, was changed from Slavic to Danish version. Why did Danish kings have Slavic names? This is because majority of the Danish population was in fact Slavic. there are many places in Scandinavia which still have Slavic names. Numerous Slavic forts were discovered in Denmark. There was a lot of intermarrying between the Wendish and the Danish ruling families throughout the medieval time. At that time this was done to strengthen the alliance between the two families, and considering that both the Slavs and the Danes were clan unions, this shows that actually there was a tribal alliance between at least some Slavic tribes and some Danish ones. The historical records show that this alliance actually existed and that the Slavs and Danes fought together against the Saxons who were waging a crusade against the pagans from the north. The things changed when Danes were Christianised and the Slavs didn’t. The Danes turned and joined the crusade and the all out war broke out which would last for a 150 years. Don’t think that this war was waged between genetically different people. It was a pure religious war where you had Slavs fighting on both sides. As a matter of fact some of the worst things during the war were done by the Christian Slavs who were the allies of the Danes. Eventually this led to the destruction of the Slavic states in the Baltic. The last pagan temple in Europe was destroyed in Arkona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Arkona) .
What I am saying is that until arrival of Christianity into the Baltic region, there was actually a lot of cooperation between Danes and the Wends. And a lot of fighting as well, but that fighting was not Slavs against Danes. There were numerous groups and tribal unions which fought each other for power and quite often the wars involved Slavs fighting Slavs and Danes fighting Danes.



this is in line with known chronology. Slavs reached Baltic by 6 the century, got mixed with Vikings, leaned how to built boats from them, and started to have contacts with people from around Baltic and North Sea. However, when you check list of shipwrecks from Polish coast, one can figure out that the Height of Slavic Navy comes later, around 10-11 century. From written record of this time we know that Norse/Danish Vikings were a dominant force over North and Baltic Seas all the time.

This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.

dublin
02-06-12, 20:18
lebrok


Actually, when you think about this, the 2300 years old crown doesn't imply that it was made in Pomerania. Let's ask ourselves a question: How hard it is to move this small (5") crown from place to place? Let's say if you are a slavic prince and take part in slavic expansion from Ukraine to Pomerania (in this example) wouldn't you pack your royal crown with you? So we know that crown is 2300 years old but we don't know where it was made, do we?



Again you are not even trying to read any of the documents that i post here. If you did, you would see that they (there were many crowns) were found in the bronze and iron age graves. Unless some Slavic prince, who as you say arrived in the 7th century, dug these graves open and placed a crown in all of them, then they are authentic Wendish (Serbian) bronze age crowns. Yes there were many of them, and all slightly different showing the development of the crown through history. So these crowns show cultural continuity (Slavic culture) in the southern Baltic from bronze age to today.

dublin
02-06-12, 20:28
lebrok

here is some more proof of Wendish or Slavic cultural continuity in the north east of Germany from bronze age to medieval time.


A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.).
Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Burgwall


lebrok, you were looking for bronze age gords:


The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany (where it is known as Lausitz, Latin: Lusatia) and parts ofUkraine. It covers the Periods Montelius III (early Lusatian culture) to V of the Northern-European chronological scheme.
There were close contacts with the Nordic Bronze Age, and the Scandinavian influence on Pomerania and northern Poland during this period was so considerable[1] that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture.[2]Hallstatt and La Tène influences are seen particularly in ornaments (fibulae, pins) and weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture (http://www1.serbiancafe.com/lat/diskusije/new/redirect.php?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture)


so the same people who made wendishe krone made gords.

how yes no 3
02-06-12, 20:30
This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. .

I am not familiar with this reseach. But findings do sound very possible. Srem was in 4th century not populated with same people as areas south of Danube. Before spread of Roman empire, guess roughly before 100 AD it was settled by Scordisci (they lived along Danube and Morava river), later by Sarmatian Iazyges.

I claim for long time that Scordisci/Serdi are forefathers of Serbs. Some other people claim that Serbs were of Sarmatian origin. So, there's the explanation for unchanged population.




The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.

it is not possible in any way to claim that all r1a1 was Slavic. In fact,there is a clade of it that exist only in europe and only in Slavs, and is most dominant in west Slavs and oldest in Serbia indicating that west Slavs origin from area of Serbia, If Slavs were settling as far as Denmark we would see that clade there, but we do not. On other hand I did see a sample of I2a2-din in Denmark.

interesting is that in PIE vocabulary
*suerb = turn
*uend = turn
*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

see thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27558-origin-of-tribal-names

and that Sorbs small Slavic nation in Germany who call themselves Serbja also uses alternative names Lusatians and Wends.

zanipolo
02-06-12, 21:04
This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.

There is no such thing as Slavic R1a1, no Haplotype type belongs to any linguistic or racial group exclusivly.

I will ask you, because I could not be anwered in another thread. Since the word Wend appears for the first time around 600Ad by Jordanes ( who could only speak Latin and Gothic,,,and not germanic) , what where these "wendish" people called before this?

5 year old book on the baltic area
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-wZYqf3G45cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+well+spring+of+the+goths&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BWTKT5LYK5SeiQfn77DXBg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venedian&f=false

razor
02-06-12, 21:14
The (Baltic) Venedi were first mentioned by Pliny in his "Natural History", completed ca. 75 CE. His source is unknown. Tacitus spoke of them in ch. 46 of his "Germania" (published in 98 CE) , as inhabiting areas east of the Vistula. Ptolemy repeatedly referred to them in his Geography.

zanipolo
02-06-12, 21:33
The (Baltic) Venedi were first mentioned by Pliny in his "Natural History", completed ca. 75 CE. His source is unknown. Tacitus spoke of them in ch. 46 of his "Germania" (published in 98 CE) , as inhabiting areas east of the Vistula. Ptolemy repeatedly referred to them in his Geography.

yes, and the goths where below the venedi on the vistula.
But the Venedi disappeared around 200Ad well before the slavs came.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii
It was the only way that jordanes could justify the gothic expansion into baltic lands
Jordanes was a goth 'historian".........a very bad one it seems to modern historians

zanipolo
02-06-12, 21:49
@dublin

you are again claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs

the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimieras_B%C5%ABga), Vasmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Vasmer), Toporov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toporov) and Trubachov, in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas) in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania) coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Berlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin), Warsaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw), Kiev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev), and Kursk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursk), northward through Moscow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow) to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_culture_in_Pomerania

Settlement in Pomerania started by the end of the Vistula Glacial Stage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Glacial_Stage), some 13,000 years ago.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Hoops422-5) Archeological traces have been found of various cultures during the Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age) and Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age), Baltic peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_peoples), Germanic peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) and Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti) during the Iron Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age) and, in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages), Slavic tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs) and Vikings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Piskorski18ff-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Wernicke16ff-8)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Hoops422-5)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Buchholz_pp.22.2C23-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania#cite_note-Herrmann.2C_pp.237ff.2C244ff-11) The Pomeranian (Western) Balts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_Balts) who lived between the Jutland peninsula in the west and the Vistula river in the east were partly assimilated by Germanic tribes advancing to the east from 1500 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500_BC) to the 1st century AD. Starting in the 10th century, early Polish dukes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piast_Poland) on several occasions subdued parts of the region from the southeast, while the Holy Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire) and Denmark augmented their territory from the west and north

Again I say to you, do not slavitize people who learn slavic language and make them slavs......this way of thinking makes you English ( because you can speak english) and nothing else...........its 100% wrong

dublin
02-06-12, 22:15
zanipolo


There is no such thing as Slavic R1a1, no Haplotype type belongs to any linguistic or racial group exclusivly.

you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India they all spoke the Indoeuropean language. In Europe they mixed with the indigenous population. They mixed their Indoeuropean language with indigenous languages thus creating different European languages. The least amount of pollution of the original Indoeuropean language would have occured in the areas where the Indoeuropans mixed with the indigenous population the least, or where number of Indoeuropean newcomers vastly outnumbered the indigenous people. So if the migration happened from east to west then the bulk of the Indoeuropeans would have settled in the east of Europe, the area they first encountered, particularly because the Indoeuropeans were herders, nomads, and they would preferred wide open grasslands of eastern and central Europe.

now let us see what the genetics tells us. Look at the R1a map:

5642

It tells us that R1a is most frequent in Slavic countries. So the dilution of the Indoeuropean language would be the smallest in these areas. Which language is spoken in these areas? Slavic. If Slavic language is the most Indoeuropean language, then Slavs are the most Indoeuropean people.

Here are some other people who had the same opinion:

Ami Boue french liguist Stated: ,,... au IX siecle, le slav apparait beucoup plus rapproche que toute autre langue du vieux type indo-europeen."


,,... In IX century The Slav language seems more then any other european language closer to the indo-European language.

Abel Hovelacque stated: ,,... le latin et le grec sont, en maintes circontances, plus eloignes que le slav de la langue commune indo-europeene..."


,... latin and greek in the majority of instances are more distant then slav in the shared indo-european languages.
,,... the establishe fact is concluded that they are the arhaic configuration of the slav language!!!..."

The conclussion of the Great Larousse encyclopedia:


The Slav language seems to be more then any other language closer to the ancient "indo-european" type"

Now what about l2a1. Here is the distribution of this genetic material:

5643


These genes are most frequent in the Balkans an central and eastern Europe. In the area where this genes are most frequent, people speak Slavic languages as well. But when we compare these Slavic dialects going from the Balkans diagonally towards the north east, we see that the Balkan dialects are the oldest and further north and east we go the younger the dialects are. What does that mean? How is it possible that the people in the Balkans, where Indoeuropeans almost didn't come at all, speak the oldest dialects of Slavic languages? This means that The l2a1 people were the original Europoindians (i like this), the original Arians. Part of them migrated to India and then part of those who went to India eventually came back to Europe.



Our analysis confirms that many elements of the gaulish culture, before the Roman
conquest, could originate in Eastern Europe. Especially meaningful are in this respect
the matches between slavic words and gaulish toponyms, tribe and deities names. The
scenario of the gaulish-slavic interrelations did not emerge till now because of the absurd
assumption that slavs were late incomers into Europe and, consequently, it was unnecessary
to look for gaulish-slavic interrelations. We hope that the present work could initiate new
researches on further different aspects of the interrelations between gauls and slavs.

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf



The Online Etymology dictionary [12] is an easy to access program on the internet and an
excellent tool for doing research. It contains approximately 30,000 words of which unfortunately
very few are declared slavic” or “Proto-slavic”. Even words that are declared “slavic” or “Protoslavic” are lightly emphasized and given little significance. Most easily recognizable “slavic” or
“Proto-slavic” words are usually labeled Proto-germanic which is incorrect.
Of the words studied for this and other projects close to 1,500 have been identified
to have “slavic” or “Proto-slavic” origins. There are strong indications that with time and
further study this number could be doubled.
What is interesting about this dictionary is that about 25 % of the basic everyday type
of words it contains are declared either “unknown”, “obscure” or possibly Proto-Roman, 10
Proto-germanic or Proto-Celtic, but without any convincing etymology. What is also
interesting is that about 65 % of these words can be explained by the slavic languages.
from what has been discovered up to now there are indications that the English
language has had slavic influence.


http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/belchevsky_slavic_roots.pdf

zanipolo
02-06-12, 22:23
zanipolo



you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India they all spoke the Indoeuropean language. In Europe they mixed with the indigenous population. They mixed their Indoeuropean language with indigenous languages thus creating different European languages. The least amount of pollution of the original Indoeuropean language would have occured in the areas where the Indoeuropans mixed with the indigenous population the least, or where number of Indoeuropean newcomers vastly outnumbered the indigenous people. So if the migration happened from east to west then the bulk of the Indoeuropeans would have settled in the east of Europe, the area they first encountered, particularly because the Indoeuropeans were herders, nomads, and they would preferred wide open grasslands of eastern and central Europe.

now let us see what the genetics tells us. Look at the R1a map:

5642

It tells us that R1a is most frequent in Slavic countries. So the dilution of the Indoeuropean language would be the smallest in these areas. Which language is spoken in these areas? Slavic. If Slavic language is the most Indoeuropean language, then Slavs are the most Indoeuropean people.

Here are some other people who had the same opinion:

Ami Boue french liguist Stated: ,,... au IX siecle, le slav apparait beucoup plus rapproche que toute autre langue du vieux type indo-europeen."


Abel Hovelacque stated: ,,... le latin et le grec sont, en maintes circontances, plus eloignes que le slav de la langue commune indo-europeene..."


The conclussion of the Great Larousse encyclopedia:

If you want to quote Olga's book, she stated the slavs left the balkans in 4500BC and went to mesopatamia and created the first language, then to India and then back to europe as far as the rhine river.
One branch from meopotamia went to become pharohs of egypt.

Quote correctly the utter rubbish from Olga's book...the propoganda book that was taught in all Yugoslav schools.

how yes no 3
02-06-12, 22:35
If you want to quote Olga's book, she stated the slavs left the balkans in 4500BC and went to mesopatamia and created the first language, then to India and then back to europe as far as the rhine river.
One branch from meopotamia went to become pharohs of egypt.

Quote correctly the utter rubbish from Olga's book...the propoganda book that was taught in all Yugoslav schools.
like in many countries that are in search for lost past there were rubbish historians in Serbia such as Deretic and Olga whatever...
but nothing like that is ever learned in schools....
stop repeating such a lie...
i went to school in Serbia and I know very well that such authors would never ever be mentioned in schools.... in school regarding the national history we only learned known facts starting from around 11th century...and that slavs arrive to Balkans in 6th or 7th century in the end period of big movements of people....

so stop speaking about things that you have no clue about.... better speak about schools you attended in Albania or even worse in Kosovo with hate speech about slavic people and insisting that albanian language is same as Illyrian and that Veneti are just Illyrians... one of the reasons for Albanians from Kosovo to exit official education system and make parallel ilegal one in end of 80s or begining of 90s was exactly the point that offical history didnot want to identify in school books Albanians as Illyrians as there was just no evidence to support it...personally, I think that language of Albanians come from Dardanian, and that it may have few words from Illyrians... but if you look for Illyrians you should probably search in romanized population of south and west Balkan - Vlachs who have largely assimilated in populations of south Slavic countries, Albania and Greece...

as far as I see dublin never made a reference to books of that Olga whatever
he quotes in post above some linguists and encyclopedia... I do not know where he got these data from and how reliable it is...

but from modern languages slavic is from all I see most close to PIE vocabulary...
which is very logical concerning its central position among indo-european speaking people....
don't see why is that such a problem for you....

dublin
02-06-12, 22:47
zanipolo


you are again claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs

if in the antiquity the Baltic sea was called Wendish sea, if there is direct Cultural continuity in the south Baltic from bronze age to today, if all the authors from antiquity say that the inhabitants of the south Baltic are Wends who are Slavs who are Serbs who are Vandals, if even Germans (who don't particularly like Slavs and use Wend as a derogatory term for Slavs) say that wends (Slawen) lived in the south of Baltic, i think i will continue to "be claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs".

funny you call yourself "Venet". Do you know who Venets were:


special studies of ancient human bones show a high genetic connection between
Etruscan, Veneti and present slovenians, especially in bones 2400 years old from the north
adriatic sea...


M. Budja, Who are the Europeans? Proceedings of the 5th International Topical Conference, Origin of Europeans, Jutro, ljubljana 2007, pp. 7-26.

dublin
02-06-12, 22:50
If you want to quote Olga's book, she stated the slavs left the balkans in 4500BC and went to mesopatamia and created the first language, then to India and then back to europe as far as the rhine river.
One branch from meopotamia went to become pharohs of egypt.

Quote correctly the utter rubbish from Olga's book...the propoganda book that was taught in all Yugoslav schools.

and i didn't quote anyone. i came to this conclusion myself. look at the maps. read what other people who are not serbians have to say about this.

dublin
02-06-12, 23:24
Vineta,

Vineta or Wineta (sometimes held to be identical with Jomsborg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsborg) by German apologists) was a possibly legendary ancient town believed to have been on the coast of the Baltic Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea). It was commonly said to be on the present site of Wolin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin) in Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) or of Zinnowitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinnowitz) on Usedom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usedom) island inGermany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). Today it is said to have been near Barth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barth,_Germany) in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg-Vorpommern). At all these places, Vineta museums and Vineta festivals try to attract tourists.
Around 970 Ibrāhīm ibn Ya`qūb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_ben_Jacob), envoy of the Caliph of Córdoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph_of_Córdoba), reported that in Pomerania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania) was a large port "with twelve gates", whose armed force is superior to "all peoples of the north".
In 1043 Vineta was to be conquered by the fleet of the Danish and Norwegian king Magnus I of Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_I_of_Norway).
Traders in the eleventh and twelfth century reported about a town that was the most powerful port of the Baltic Sea. Bishop Adam of Bremen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_of_Bremen) wrote that Vineta was the largest of all towns in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).
A Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) fleet destroyed Vineta in 1159 during the Christianizing of the Wends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends) (Wendish Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade)).
There is a legend that Vineta sank in a storm tide because of the sinfulness of its inhabitants, and that before the sinking there were warning portents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portent_(divination)). It is thought likely that Vineta sank because of shifting of distributary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributary) channels in the delta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_delta) of the river Oder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta#cite_note-0)

Now was this city just a myth?

The incredible wealth of Vineta could only have originated from the amber trade. Here is something about Amber trade from old historical sources:

http://www.balticambershop.com/en/content/19-amber-ancient-writers


"amber from Aegyptus called sacal"

the Egyptian name for amber was Sacal. The name for the product, especially such a unique on such as Amber, is usually given by the suppliers. In Slavic languages glass is called staklo, staclo, sklo, steklo... with the root stkl or stcl. Slavic s(t)cl is found in all Semitic languages in the word for amber. The same is in Greek glesso and Egyptian sacal. This proves that Slavs lived in the Baltic in antiquity and controlled the amber trade.
By the way if you have ever seen amber you know that it looks like glass. I believe that glass was named like that because it looked like amber.

LeBrok
02-06-12, 23:34
there is no Celtic and Slavic and Germanic religion that can be set completely apart...
they are all derived from same religion of proto-indo-european people...

e.g. Slavic Perun is derived from the same deity as Baltic Perkunas, Luwian Tarhun, Celtic Taranas, Hattian Taru, Germanic Thor

I do not see how someone can claim that 3-headed deity belongs to one branch of a religion but not to other branch...
if it exist in two branches, clearly most logical explanation is that it comes from their parent branch in both...

3 headed deity is among Slavic deities, and in Celtic as well...
the argument that Triglav doesnot have a functional meaning in Slavic is ridicilous....
Triglav = 3 heads
but 3 heads that see 3 main worlds: sky, earth and underworld.

do not forget that word "glavno" = main , key
so this is a deity with view in 3 main areas...

while Svetovid (svet = world, vid = to see) was a God who had 4 heads and was looking in 4 directions... he was not in the main view with look into all 3 key subworlds of indo-european religions (sky, earth, underworld) , he was inside one of the 3 subviews and there he could look in 4 directions (space dimension in 2d world as in crossroads...i would not relate it to 3D space plus time model though it may be).. ...

Yes, and most known Zeus. When did the IE split? 6k ago, posibly earlier. Triglav finds were documented by 1,000CE in Pomerania. Don't you think that during 5,000 years of IE spit, the IE religion didn't evolve in separate ways? We are talking about 5,000 (!) years, at least, of accumulated differences in Celtic, Slavis, Greek or Germanic pagan religions.
There are similarities, and lots of them, but there are big differences too, in languages and also in religions. Do you feel like denying it?


but 3 heads that see 3 main worlds: sky, earth and underworld.

This is only assumed, though probably right. The main issue here is that the tree elements are not gods, there are 3 gods that represent these elements, right? Behind 3 faces (of any trinity, together with christian's) there are 3 gods, which have there own names. What are they? Do Slavs, or you, ancient texts, know the proper Slavic names for the god of sky, earth and underworld, that consist the triglav? No? What a shame. Obviously they needed one shorter name to describe this trinity, but Triglav doesn't sound right, Devin, worth of gods.
All we know is that these statues represent Triglav, threehead. "Oh look father, there is a threehead"! Again, this is not a proper god's name. Besides, statues of Triglav are more commonly found in France or Ireland than in slavic lands, except West Pomerania.
If you right in your supposition about Triglav being slavic god, you should be able to find more of them in slavic lands, which were christened much later than France or Ireland. What about Baltic states? Christianity in some places came there by 16-17th century? Do they have Triglav? Surely they are IE people.
http://www.latvianstuff.com/Deities.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Latvian_deities
I don't see Triglav, do you?

What about Scythians? Any Triglavs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_religion



if we would ask for deities to have names with clear functional meaning in the associated languages, how do you explain names of the most Celtic deities that are not at all translatable via Celtic words? while Slavic words give match to function of those deities... does it mean that Celtic religion comes from Slavs?


http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov

truth is somewhat different....both Slavic and Celtic religion are inhereted from proto-indo-european religion
names of deities in that religion are related to PIE dictionary......
most of those words do still exist in Slavic languages that are considerably closer to original proto-indo-european than Celtic languages....
most of those words do not exist in Celtic languages anymore...

I'm not expert in Celtic or old IE to comment much here. On first glance I noticed that this was put together by someone from Bulgaria, and most cognates found in Bulgarian too. We should mention that Bulgarian is one of most foreign influence Slavic language anyway. The correspondences of words don't look professionally done, and most "cognates" need a strong stretch of imagination. Plus, I'm sure if we had a member on eupedia who speaks Celtic from 3000 years ago, he would prove you, and person who did this comparison, easily wrong.

zanipolo
02-06-12, 23:46
like in many countries that are in search for lost past there were rubbish historians in Serbia such as Deretic and Olga whatever...
but nothing like that is ever learned in schools....
stop repeating such a lie...
i went to school in Serbia and I know very well that such authors would never ever be mentioned in schools.... in school regarding the national history we only learned known facts starting from around 11th century...and that slavs arrive to Balkans in 6th or 7th century in the end period of big movements of people....

so stop speaking about things that you have no clue about.... better speak about schools you attended in Albania or even worse in Kosovo with hate speech about slavic people and insisting that albanian language is same as Illyrian and that Veneti are just Illyrians... one of the reasons for Albanians from Kosovo to exit official education system and make parallel ilegal one in end of 80s or begining of 90s was exactly the point that offical history didnot want to identify in school books Albanians as Illyrians as there was just no evidence to support it...personally, I think that language of Albanians come from Dardanian, and that it may have few words from Illyrians... but if you look for Illyrians you should probably search in romanized population of south and west Balkan - Vlachs who have largely assimilated in populations of south Slavic countries, Albania and Greece...

as far as I see dublin never made a reference to books of that Olga whatever
he quotes in post above some linguists and encyclopedia... I do not know where he got these data from and how reliable it is...

but from modern languages slavic is from all I see most close to PIE vocabulary...
which is very logical concerning its central position among indo-european speaking people....
don't see why is that such a problem for you....

i attended all my schooling in Australia where there are NO propoganda books like Srbi...narod najstariji ( serbian/slavic propoganda) , you are far more more albanian than anyone else in europe, as serbians where thracian in genes except for the few who migrated...........which is why slavic nobles claim title of triballi. The triballi where neighbours of the dardanians who are in kosovo.......you see the link

The illyrians are not such people IMO, only a terms used by greek and roman historians in bulk naming tribes due to location. The 2007 studies clearly show the genetics of illyrians are: R1b, R1a, I and J and there is no E

There is no hate speak, I just see and read about logical facts, not mythology either

how yes no 3
02-06-12, 23:48
Yes, and most known Zeus. When did the IE split? 6k ago, posibly earlier. Triglav finds were documented by 1,000CE in Pomerania. Don't you think that during 5,000 years of IE spit, the IE religion didn't evolve in separate ways? We are talking about 5,000 (!) years, at least, of accumulated differences in Celtic, Slavis, Greek or Germanic pagan religions.
There are similarities, and lots of them, but there are big differences too, in languages and also in religions. Do you feel like denying it?
of course not...
I was just trying to show dublin that Triglav-alike god in Celtic lands is by no mean indicator (and not proof as he suggests) of Slavic people in celtic lands...

i claim that *uend is just name for border lands of R1a people and may have been given to variious tribes...
Vikings are certainly not Slavic people....though of course there may have been some slavic people among them... same as pirates later were not nationaly conscious people but united in goal for robbing other people...

dublin starts with assigning PIE *deub in dublin to the Slavic influence, continues with three headed eity = presence of Slavic people
which is lot of assumptions to come to conclusion that from what i see just doesnot hold that vikings are slavic people...



This is only assumed, though probably right. The main issue here is that the tree elements are not gods, there are 3 gods that represent these elements, right? Behind 3 faces (of any trinity, together with christian's) there are 3 gods, which have there own names. What are they? Do Slavs, or you, ancient texts, know the proper Slavic names for the god of sky, earth and underworld, that consist the triglav? No? What a shame. Obviously they needed one shorter name to describe this trinity, but Triglav doesn't sound right, Devin, worth of gods.
glavno = main, key
so Triglav, may have been what I describe...
i do not see your point in claiming it was not Slavic god originally, when it could have eaasily been....




All we know is that these statues represent Triglav, threehead. "Oh look father, there is a threehead"! Again, this is not a proper god's name. Besides, statues of Triglav are more commonly found in France or Ireland than in slavic lands, except West Pomerania.
from what i read he was Slavic god...
whole idea clearly comes from PIE religion that sees a world as big tree whose top is sky/heaven, mid is world, and roots is underworld...
it is very natural to have deity that operates in all 3 worlds....


If you right in your supposition about Triglav being slavic god, you should be able to find more of them in slavic lands, which were christened much later than France or Ireland. What about Baltic states? Christianity in some places came there by 16-17th century? Do they have Triglav? Surely they are IE people.
http://www.latvianstuff.com/Deities.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Latvian_deities
I don't see Triglav, do you?
Triglav is also known by Russian mythology...


What about Scythians? Any Triglavs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_religion
no clue...



I'm not expert in Celtic or old IE to comment much here. On first glance I noticed that this was put together by someone from Bulgaria, and most cognates found in Bulgarian too. We should mention that Bulgarian is one of most foreign influence Slavic language anyway. The correspondences of words don't look professionally done, and most "cognates" need a strong stretch of imagination. Plus, I'm sure if we had a member on eupedia who speaks Celtic from 3000 years ago, he would prove you, and person who did this comparison, easily wrong.
that's because author is probably Bulgarian and has no clue about PIE vocabulary... it is one of those "scientific" papers that goes on conferences with lot of wishful thinking authors....

alternatively, Procopius does claim that Bulgarians origin from Cimerrians, which may have lead to those words...as Thraco-Cimmerians archeological findings are all the way to Denmark...

I can try fast to compile similar thing in Serbian for most of the names.... point is those are just PIE derived words....with many of them being preserved in Slavic languages...


Belenos was another important Gaulish god. His name means the bright, white one [15], p. 30 and his closest equivalent is Slavic Belobog. the name of this deity can’t be explained in Irish, Scottish, or Welsh language. In these languages
white is respectively FEN, BAN, GWYN.There are many more Celtic gods,which names are easy to be explained from Slavic languages as Bulgarian, Slovene, Russian etc.
belo = white


ALAUNUS was a sun-god [25], his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Russ.) word ALEN
red
.no match


ALISANOS was god of the alder trees [26]; his name corresponds to Bulgarian word
ELSHA alder tree
list = leaf
.

VETEROS was wind-god revered in Britain [27]; his name corresponds to Common Slavic word VETER - wind
vetar = wind


IALONUS was a earth-god [15], p. 124; his name is connected with Old Church Slavonic word ILĂ earth, mud
ilovača = type of ground, reach with clay


VASIO
was another agriculture-god [15], p. 218; his name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic word VĂSĂ - earth, village, mansion
VAS is Modern Slovenian word for village
vašar = occasional market place in villages, but not so much for agricultural product, except for selling e.g. cows..originally probably the place to buy tools for agriculture...
vaza = pot, typically used for flowers
vazal = in medieval period person who works and lives on land of master, also used for subjegated country that needs to pay part of its wealth to the other country
vasiona = universe
.

BEISIRISA means the bright one [15], p. 127; his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Sl.Serbo-Croat) word BISER pearl (shiny object)

biser = pearl
bistro = clear
bis = when performers of show repeatedly come on stage for applause


LOUCETIUS means The bright one [15], p. 142, and his name corresponds best to Slovene word LUČ light
. Old Church Slavonic verb LUČITI to light, to shine
is also related tot he name of LUCETICUS.
luča = torch, also spark of fire


LATOBIUS
means the bright one [15], p. 130; his name corresponds to Bulgarian words LJATO summer and LĂŠTJA to shine
leto= summer, also year in more archaic usage
leteti = to fly
letelica = flying machine e.g. airplane or helicopter

i mention fly related words because inscriptions for this god ae mainly found on tops of mountains
also letopis = writing of history


VOROCIOS was e healer-god [15], p. 144; his name corresponds to Slovene, Bulg. Russ.word VRAČ healer
.vrač = medicine man, shaman


PRITONA was goddess of bridges [15], p. 176, her name corresponds to Common Slavic word BROD bridge, ford
prut = stick made from tree branch
note that in those times bridges were made from wood

.

SEQUANA was a river-goddess [15], p. 188, her name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic verb SIKATI to water
.
na-sukati = when boat ends up mistakenly on shores or in shallow waters
seka - used for sister (kind of softer word for "sestra"(sister)), but can also be used for any younger female...


LATIS was goddess of the marshes and pools [15], p. 130, her name I connect to Common Slavic word BLATO marsh
blato = mud, swamp
.

GLANIS was god of the healing springs [15], p. 105, his name is connected with OldBulgarian word GLENĂ moist, wet and Slovene GLEN mud.
Here I have to mention that a lot of springs have mud with healing qualities.
glina = clay


VERBEJA
was goddess of the willows [15], p. 219, her name is connected with Bulgarian word VĂRBA willow, Slovenian VRBA willow, Russian VERBA willow.
vrba = villow



VERNOSTONOS was revered in Britain [15], p. 219, his name means the one who makes the alder trees groan
His name corresponds to Bulgarian words BOR, BORINA fir tree and STON groan
.
vernost = loyality



RUDIAN was war-god, which name means the bloody one [15], p. 181. RUDIAN cor-responds to Old Russian word
RUDA blood
ridj = reddish
ruda = material reach in searched for minerals obtained from mining
i would rather associate this with english rude and red


SMERTRIUS, or MARS SMERTRIUS was another war-god [15], p. 193, which name I connect with Common Slavic word
SMERT death. M. J. Green [15] connects his name with the abundance, provision, but it seems to me that it is more logical to connect awar-god with death, not with abundance and provision.
smrt = death

[QUOTE]SUCELLUS was a smith-god, his name means Good striker
[15], p. 200. the particle SU corresponds to Gaulish word SU good and Bulgarian HUBAV good , CELL (US) cor-responds to Bulgarian verb KLEPAM I strike, Slovene verb KLEPATI to hit, to strike,and Bulgarian and Slovenian word KLEPALO
hammer.
sučeliti = to confront
sklepati = to make something in ad-hoc improvized manner, so it doesnot really hold for long
klepiti = to hit
po-klopac = coverlid
poklopiti = to put over

all in all I would say better explanation than author's usage of combination of Bulgarian, Slovenian and old church Slavic

zanipolo
02-06-12, 23:52
zanipolo



if in the antiquity the Baltic sea was called Wendish sea, if there is direct Cultural continuity in the south Baltic from bronze age to today, if all the authors from antiquity say that the inhabitants of the south Baltic are Wends who are Slavs who are Serbs who are Vandals, if even Germans (who don't particularly like Slavs and use Wend as a derogatory term for Slavs) say that wends (Slawen) lived in the south of Baltic, i think i will continue to "be claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs".

funny you call yourself "Venet". Do you know who Venets were:

I claim Venet after the modern terminology as per the italian constitution, where the only other people ethnically in Italy as a popolo ( people) are sardinians and venets.

Ancient Venet are linked with venetic culture which in italy by archeology is presently dated to 1050BC , there is no where else i see this.
They went from venetic to Polada culture to Este culture

When was it called wendish sea...please link
this is its original name The Baltic Sea, in ancient sources known as Mare Suebicum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Suebicum) (also known as Mare Germanicum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Germanicum)),[5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea#cite_note-4)

So you claim vandals are slavs as well now? .............

LeBrok
03-06-12, 00:09
but from modern languages slavic is from all I see most close to PIE vocabulary...
which is very logical concerning its central position among indo-european speaking people....
.
It might be true, judging by almost full IE grammar. Same goes to Baltic family I suppose.

LeBrok
03-06-12, 00:21
zanipolo



if in the antiquity the Baltic sea was called Wendish sea, if there is direct Cultural continuity in the south Baltic from bronze age to today, if all the authors from antiquity say that the inhabitants of the south Baltic are Wends who are Slavs who are Serbs who are Vandals, if even Germans (who don't particularly like Slavs and use Wend as a derogatory term for Slavs) say that wends (Slawen) lived in the south of Baltic, i think i will continue to "be claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs".

funny you call yourself "Venet". Do you know who Venets were:

Baltic Sea was called many things in the past. It depended on who made the map, Greeks, Romans, Germanic or Baltic people?
Wends was always derogatory name among germanic peoples, because it was coined for any foreigner or enemy tribe in the past.
All Slavs use Shvab as derogatory meaning for German. It comes from hated germanic suabian tribe.

how yes no 3
03-06-12, 00:47
It might be true, judging by almost full IE grammar. Same goes to Baltic family I suppose.
i would expect even more in Baltic languages...
though Slavic is probably also enriched with sarmatian /iranic words...

btw. see my post above...
i have edited matching words in serbian...
easily better match than combination of Bulgarian, old church slavonic and Slovenian

LeBrok
03-06-12, 00:52
Well if Valdemar is Vladimir then Tryggvason could be Tryglavson.
Lots of Danish kings had a name of Valdemar, which was a Slavic name Vladimir, which according to the Danish historians, was changed from Slavic to Danish version. Why did Danish kings have Slavic names? This is because majority of the Danish population was in fact Slavic. there are many places in Scandinavia which still have Slavic names. Numerous Slavic forts were discovered in Denmark. There was a lot of intermarrying between the Wendish and the Danish ruling families throughout the medieval time. At that time this was done to strengthen the alliance between the two families, and considering that both the Slavs and the Danes were clan unions, this shows that actually there was a tribal alliance between at least some Slavic tribes and some Danish ones. The historical records show that this alliance actually existed and that the Slavs and Danes fought together against the Saxons who were waging a crusade against the pagans from the north. The things changed when Danes were Christianised and the Slavs didn’t. The Danes turned and joined the crusade and the all out war broke out which would last for a 150 years. Don’t think that this war was waged between genetically different people. It was a pure religious war where you had Slavs fighting on both sides. As a matter of fact some of the worst things during the war were done by the Christian Slavs who were the allies of the Danes. Eventually this led to the destruction of the Slavic states in the Baltic. The last pagan temple in Europe was destroyed in Arkona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Arkona) .
What I am saying is that until arrival of Christianity into the Baltic region, there was actually a lot of cooperation between Danes and the Wends. And a lot of fighting as well, but that fighting was not Slavs against Danes. There were numerous groups and tribal unions which fought each other for power and quite often the wars involved Slavs fighting Slavs and Danes fighting Danes.

Once again, my point was that Danish/Norse Vikings were the dominant force in Baltic, from beginning till the end. There were Slavic/Polabians Vikings, (slavic name is Chąśnicy), they grew to some power around 11 century, but they were finaly and completely defeated by 1200 hundreds. The end of Slavic Vikings. There were also Baltic Vikings and Irish Vikings even Kiev Vikings, and the thing that united them was the Viking culture, how to built boats, how to fight on boats, and their lingua franka was Danish/Norse germanic language. Also this is where the Viking power survived till the end, in Denmark and Norway, and was transforemd to new countries of christian era. The viking stories survived mostly in Norse literature, and is part of there heritage and historic pride. For Slavic Pomeranians it was nothing special at all, "Chąśnicy" means Pirates.
All of this should tell you that Vikings was Norse phenomenon, pride and culture. Surely, there were other minorities involved in being Vikings, (similar as in many other multicultural empires), but this is just it, some minor involvement.







there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.


I must ask you to stop printing garbage like this (as moderator). You already posted it few times without shred of proof. We all read it and all said that we didn't agree with it and stopped shortly off calling it stupidity. Posting it again and again won't make it true nor will convince us otherwise. Please stop, and try using official nomenclature not to confuse people, if you didn't mean it.

how yes no 3
03-06-12, 00:53
I claim Venet after the modern terminology as per the italian constitution, where the only other people ethnically in Italy as a popolo ( people) are sardinians and venets.Ancient Venet are linked with venetic culture which in italy by archeology is presently dated to 1050BC , there is no where else i see this.
They went from venetic to Polada culture to Este culture
Veneti are mentioned in ancient history data records...
they are mentioned as moving out from Paphlagonia in Asia minor to Europe....
this movement might or might not have been to Adriatic, but might have been in multiple directions...
in my opinion the name of proto-Slavic tribe Anti also come from these people....


When was it called wendish sea...please link
this is its original name The Baltic Sea, in ancient sources known as Mare Suebicum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Suebicum) (also known as Mare Germanicum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Germanicum)),[5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea#cite_note-4)
"mare Germanicum" is north sea not Baltic...
Baltic is "mare Suebicum"


So you claim vandals are slavs as well now? .............
they may have been R1a germanic...
their tribal name is derivation from PIE *uend which is as I propose and explain together with *suerb used for border lands by R1a people... it is not difficult to conceive that they started of as a mixture of east Europe R1a with proto-germanic and that after awhile germanic language prevailed....note that they are east germanic people hence on border between germaniic people and some ancestors of east european probably proto-Balto-Slavic people...

LeBrok
03-06-12, 00:58
Dublin, please, link us again to the document where it states that "slavic crown was dug out from the grave, which (the grave and bones) were from before 500AD in Pomerania".

razor
03-06-12, 01:48
The Venedi were still around when the tabula Peutingeriana was revised in the 4th c. (after the foundation of Constantinople). They are mentioned in two places. Check it out.

zanipolo
03-06-12, 01:53
Veneti are mentioned in ancient history data records...
they are mentioned as moving out from Paphlagonia in Asia minor to Europe....
this movement might or might not have been to Adriatic, but might have been in multiple directions...
in my opinion the name of proto-Slavic tribe Anti also come from these people....


"mare Germanicum" is north sea not Baltic...
Baltic is "mare Suebicum"


they may have been R1a germanic...
their tribal name is derivation from PIE *uend which is as I propose and explain together with *suerb used for border lands by R1a people... it is not difficult to conceive that they started of as a mixture of east Europe R1a with proto-germanic and that after awhile germanic language prevailed....note that they are east germanic people hence on border between germaniic people and some ancestors of east european probably proto-Balto-Slavic people...


Veneti are mentioned in ancient history data records...
they are mentioned as moving out from Paphlagonia in Asia minor to Europe....
this movement might or might not have been to Adriatic, but might have been in multiple directions...
in my opinion the name of proto-Slavic tribe Anti also come from these people....
I do not believe in mythology......the Veneti IMO from what I know..............2 myth lines then the rest-
1- they came from bithynia in anatolia crossed into europe in 1270BC, went along the black sea to the danube, then along the danube to the sava river and started to mix with the "illyrians" of pannonia then moved to noricum, istria etc etc.
The eneti of homer in Paphlagonia are from the town of enete ( modern Sinope) and was wrongly mixed .... read properly what homer said. The thracians occupied bithynia after the veneti left.

2- They came from thuringia went down to the danube and headed to the black sea, they stopped at the sava river and turned westward and started to mix with the "illyrians" of pannonia then moved to noricum, istria etc etc.

around 1100BC or before they invaded Italy and pushed out the Eugenai ligurian people ( tribes like stoeni , camuni etc etc). The veneti at this time never reached the northern alps. The eugenai and veneti mixed and they all became veneti.
Around 500BC the gallic carni tribe came down from the alps and split the veneti in half - the italian side where latinized aroun 100BC and the slovenian side was slavized around 600AD. the carni became the friuli which is why their language has many many ancient gallic traits.
So, my history starts in the illyrian lands of noricum, pannonia, istria. tribes like catali

The 2007 ancient DNA found in the venetic peoples was R1b - M173 (62%) in veneto, the venetic in slovenia of R1b -M173 is 26%, in noricum its 21% and in istria its 19%, northern croatia its 16%. Clearly showing some later slavic migration which dilutes the original HG.
I assume this was not bought by the gallic carni and tauristic tribes, because I cannot find this marker in france or swiss


"mare Germanicum" is north sea not Baltic...
Baltic is "mare Suebicum"



I agree , just copied from site saying it was also called the other.



they may have been R1a germanic...
their tribal name is derivation from PIE *uend which is as I propose and explain together with *suerb used for border lands by R1a people... it is not difficult to conceive that they started of as a mixture of east Europe R1a with proto-germanic and that after awhile germanic language prevailed....note that they are east germanic people hence on border between germaniic people and some ancestors of east european probably proto-Balto-Slavic people...

the vandals where ( and I linked this before) whare a confederation of east-germanic tribes. They where usually referred to as Vindili

zanipolo
03-06-12, 01:58
The Venedi were still around when the tabula Peutingeriana was revised in the 4th c. (after the foundation of Constantinople). They are mentioned in two places. Check it out.

can you link this?

razor
03-06-12, 02:10
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana

Scroll down to the external links. look at e.g. the interactive version, and Segment VIII

LeBrok
03-06-12, 02:11
The Venedi were still around when the tabula Peutingeriana was revised in the 4th c. (after the foundation of Constantinople). They are mentioned in two places. Check it out.
I would like to add, on this occasion, that I've read many historical articles in polish in relation with deciphering Vistula Venedi. So far the case is still open, and there is a vital lack of records and data, archaeological and written in general, to conclusively link Venedi with any language or culture. Various authors link Venedi with Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, Celtic, Dacian or whatever with equally week arguments. On top of it Venedi of 1000BC, might have been of different culture and language than Venedi of 400AD, even the location could have shifted a lot. As we know, cultures and languages can change on same population over time. Sometimes what's left is just the name and most autosomal DNA. :)

how yes no 3
03-06-12, 02:21
I would like to add, on this occasion, that I've read many historical articles in polish in relation with deciphering Vistula Venedi. So far the case is still open, and there is a vital lack of records and data, archaeological and written in general, to conclusively link Venedi with any language or culture. Various authors link Venedi with Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, Celtic, Dacian or whatever with equally week arguments. On top of it Venedi of 1000BC, might have been of different culture and language than Venedi of 400AD, even the location could have shifted a lot. As we know, cultures and languages can change on same population over time. Sometimes what's left is just the name and most autosomal DNA. :)

that makes sense to me as i suppose it was just used for various "border people" in R1a variant of PIE language.... perhaps even not only in R1a speakers.... border people are also the ones who are most likely to change ethnicity and language...as they are in between different cultures and often have genetics from both and use words of both...

e.g. in east Serbia there is Timočka krajina (kraj = end krajina = end land / border land) where many people origin from Vlachs but see themselves as Serbs... they are perfectly biligual, their names are Serbian last names Serbian or with Serbian ending, they speak fluently as mother tongue both Serbian and Valachian (close to Romanian).... if by any chance they live in Romania they would see themselves as Romanians... that's what often happens in border areas between nations that live in peace for long time... people of mixed origin and naturally bilingual....

zanipolo
03-06-12, 02:24
I would like to add, on this occasion, that I've read many historical articles in polish in relation with deciphering Vistula Venedi. So far the case is still open, and there is a vital lack of records and data, archaeological and written in general, to conclusively link Venedi with any language or culture. Various authors link Venedi with Slavic, Baltic, East Germanic, Celtic, Dacian or whatever with equally week arguments. On top of it Venedi of 1000BC, might have been of different culture and language than Venedi of 400AD, even the location could have shifted a lot. As we know, cultures and languages can change on same population over time. Sometimes what's left is just the name and most autosomal DNA. :)

i have to agree, the age clearly shows a baltic people or at a extreme -finnic

The latest from Polish historians is that they ( venedi) occupied the left side of the vistula ( danzig side - east pommeria ) and not the right side because the original water way went to the vistual lagoon ( right side ) and not the vistula gulf.
The entrance to the lagoon once it silted up forced the river to find another path - which became its current path

dublin
03-06-12, 12:48
lebrok


I must ask you to stop printing garbage like this (as moderator). You already posted it few times without shred of proof. We all read it and all said that we didn't agree with it and stopped shortly off calling it stupidity. Posting it again and again won't make it true nor will convince us otherwise. Please stop, and try using official nomenclature not to confuse people, if you didn't mean it.

Or what? You are going to close this thread as well? Or you are going to ban me from the forum? You say that you are a citizen of the world.
So i first have to ask you did you grow up in a democratic country or a totalitarian one? I am asking this because you don't seem to know what democracy means. One of the basic principles of democracy is respecting minority opinions and allowing people with these opinions to express them. Otherwise you have totalitarianism. Considering this is EU forum, and EU is supposed to be based on democracy, then i have a right to express my opinion without it being censored or suppressed. You might not agree with it but if you are a democratic person you have to respect it. If you want to prove that my opinion is wrong, you need to use arguments, and not insults. I don't agree with your opinion, but i am not calling you stupid. I am trying to elaborate and present proofs that would support my argument, you can do the same.
Second i have to ask you if you know what forum means? Forum is place where ideas are brought out into the open, where people think aloud. The ideas that are expressed are not necessarily the same and are often contradictory. But this is why forum exists, to discuss different ideas. Forum is not a church, where everyone is forced to listen and agree with one idea. Considering that you can't stand that someone could have s different ideas, maybe you should be on in a church and not here. Science is not a religion. Advancement of any science is based on new ideas. I came here to discus my ideas. They are ideas, not laws. But it seems you don't want to discus things. It seems that you want to preach.
As a moderator you are supposed to insure that discussion on this forum is civilized, democratic and that it does not offend anyone. Your job is not to censor and suppress ideas that you don't like. You closed the first thread where i expressed the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same after calling my ideas a farce. Now you are calling my ideas stupid and are again threatening that if i don't stop saying that Celts and Slavs are one and the same you will take measures against me. So you are insulting me and my ideas and i can live with that. It just shows the level of your argument. But it seems that you can't stand the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same. Why? Are you being offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same? If you are offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same then that just means that you are a racist.

I do give everyone a benefit of the doubt. So please prove to me and everyone else on this forum that you are democratic knowledge seeking non racist person.

how yes no 3
03-06-12, 14:58
dublin,
you are overreacting.....
le brok did not forbid you to state your ideas... his statement was comment on the following lines of yours,,,


there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people..

this is not just wishful thinking.... this is worse... it is propaganda.... its not problem that someone writes his ideas and wishful thinking... problem is to claim things that are clearly not true.... as far as i know there is no historical nor genetic data that support your claims....

unless you count wishful thinking of some modern so called historians.... historical sources are only ancient history records, not modern interpretations.....interpretations come from biased minds....... so now its up to you to reference numerous history sources that show that Slavs lived all over Europe...

also first learn something about genetics before daring to make claims like "genetic data is taking any doubt out of it".... as far as I know there is almost no I2a-Din and no R1a-M458 in west Europe hence it is in fact almost sure that no Slavic people lived in west Europe, except in east Germany ....

you can try to call R1a pre-Slavic people, but R1a are also large or small part of Indians, Pakistanis, Iranians, Scandinavians, probably Etruscans, ancient Macedonians.... it is just impossible to equate R1a and Slavic.... you can instead suggest that it was haplogroup of proto-indo-european people.... but even that cannot be proven, as R1a people may have received PIE language from someone else..... which btw. is what I expect as I believe that Etruscans and Pelasgians were also R1a people and their languages are known not to have been PIE.... so original PIE people could have been someone else....

dublin
03-06-12, 18:49
how yes no


this is not just wishful thinking.... this is worse... it is propaganda....

can you explain what this means please? What are you accusing me of? Trying to change your mind? Trying to Influence your thinking? Trying to brainwash you? Or just saying things that you don't agree with?


its not problem that someone writes his ideas and wishful thinking...

what is wishful thinking? every thinking is wishful thinking, otherwise it is just dumb repetition of someone else's thinking. thinking is always wishful as the person that thinks is wishing to prove through thinking some original idea. thinking can prove or disprove this original idea. This is the purpose of thinking.



problem is to claim things that are clearly not true....

What do you mean by not true? Do you mean "not stated as true by someone whose book you read"? The things that i am discussing are far from being certain, and the historical interpretation of those things have already changed many times and are currently changing again. So my interpretation is just another possible one and i am trying to put forward arguments to support my interpretation. do you want me to remind you that in slavic - celtic thread you claimed the right to do just that? but now you are denying the same right to me? I mean we don't know who Celts were and if they even existed? we knoow that there were people who were called Keltoi but that is about it.



as far as i know there is no historical nor genetic data that support your claims....

AS far as you know. I am not claiming that i know more than you, just that i might know some things that might shed new light on the subject.



so now its up to you to reference numerous history sources that show that Slavs lived all over Europe...



i thought that this is what i have been doing. i have presented links to documents that prove that slavic languages are older than latin and greek and so cold celtic languages. i have also presented documents that prove that there is slavic cultural continuity in North Germany from bronze age to today. i have presented documents that prove that etruscans are identical to venets which are identical to slovenes. i am about to document that triglav worship was the Slavic wide and that it survived the longest in the Balkans (second part of 20th century) and that also it is the most direct link between European and Arian religion. I will also give more cultural parallels between Slavs and Celts.



also first learn something about genetics before daring to make claims like "genetic data is taking any doubt out of it".... as far as I know there is almost no I2a-Din and no R1a-M458 in west Europe hence it is in fact almost sure that no Slavic people lived in west Europe, except in east Germany ....

i believe that i posted the map from this site that shows that r1a1 does exist in western and northern europe. Could you please explain this claim to me.



it is just impossible to equate R1a and Slavic....

can you explain why? Because it is actually impossible or because it is unacceptable because it would force us to rewrite our history books?


you can instead suggest that it was haplogroup of proto-indo-european people....

Obviously this would be acceptable because it does not use the dirty S word.



but even that cannot be proven, as R1a people may have received PIE language from someone else.....which btw. is what I expect as I believe that Etruscans and Pelasgians were also R1a people and their languages are known not to have been PIE.... so original PIE people could have been someone else....

just go back to my previous post, look at the maps, genetic and language distribution. this is just statistically not possible. what is possible is that both R1a and l2a are the genetic groups of the people speaking the same language where l2a versions (Balkan slavic languages) are older, the original PIE languages. Please read documents that i have posted.

And can we once and for all stop talking about the right to speculate. Speculation is mother of science.

how yes no 3
03-06-12, 20:17
how yes no
can you explain what this means please? What are you accusing me of? Trying to change your mind? Trying to Influence your thinking? Trying to brainwash you? Or just saying things that you don't agree with?

i am accusing you for bluntly stating as absolute truths things that are in contradiction with reality......
that's what propaganda is...


there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.





what is wishful thinking? every thinking is wishful thinking, otherwise it is just dumb repetition of someone else's thinking. thinking is always wishful as the person that thinks is wishing to prove through thinking some original idea. thinking can prove or disprove this original idea. This is the purpose of thinking.

wishful thinking = biased thinking....
if you want to know the truth you need not be for or against...you need to search for truth...
otherwise you end up constructing theories in which you see what you want to see and not what is reality...





What do you mean by not true? Do you mean "not stated as true by someone whose book you read"? The things that i am discussing are far from being certain, and the historical interpretation of those things have already changed many times and are currently changing again. So my interpretation is just another possible one and i am trying to put forward arguments to support my interpretation. do you want me to remind you that in slavic - celtic thread you claimed the right to do just that? but now you are denying the same right to me? I mean we don't know who Celts were and if they even existed? we knoow that there were people who were called Keltoi but that is about it.

what you do and what I do is quite different...what I do is find some links that I find interesting to explore.... i do not hide my attitudes behind doubtful sources.... ... in fact with your unfounded delusions about vikings = Slavs you did manage to ruin interesting topic about celtic-serbian parallels...


read your statement - it is just not truth...le brok was right to be rough with it....


there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.


better think about who are your historical sources..... Herodotous, Strabo, Pompomious Mela...? or some contemporary lawyer or engineer who in free time sends his writings to a wishful thinking Slovenian conference about Veneti?

if you want to claim numerous sources than dig into ancient sources... learn Greek , latin....read....
but do not call modern wishful thinking (mis)interpreters of history - historical sources
they may provide you with useful indications, but its just not right to call them historical sources.... and to consider their educated or non educated guess proof for anything...




AS far as you know. I am not claiming that i know more than you, just that i might know some things that might shed new light on the subject.
be careful what you claim...and how...
one thing is to state your own ideas on forum...
another is to claim bluntly how your ideas are clearly supported by genetics and history sources





i believe that i posted the map from this site that shows that r1a1 does exist in western and northern europe. Could you please explain this claim to me.can you explain why?

are Indians = Slavs?
are Pakistani = Slavs?
are iranians?
R1a1 is not marker of Slavic people, as it is very old and found all over the Euroasia... it predates not only Slavic language but also estimates of how proto-indo-european languages are old......

there is however its subclade R1a-M458 (R1a1a7) that exist only in Europe and can be used as marker of Slavic presence as it is present in all Slavic populations (most strongly in west Slavs)...

R1a1a7 displays high diversity among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples (coalescent time ~11 KYA) KYA = kilo (1000) years ago
most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA.

(High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia -
Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera)


R1a1a7 is today slavic marker.... its age is estimated to 14000 years for Serbia....it is spread in all slavic countries... but not much of it in west europe... only few hotspots..
west Europe has mostly R1a1a*(xM458) (x means "without)

pockets of M458 are found in Germany, south Sweden, southeast Denmark and west Netherlands... this is very far from "everywhere in Europe"

N ______R1a1a total___R1a1a*(xM458)___R1a1a7*____Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study
Ireland East 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Ireland North 21 9.5 9.5 0 This study
Ireland South 24 0 0 0 This study
Ireland Southwest 22 0 0 0 This study
Ireland West 16 0 0 0 This study
England Central 25 0 0 0 This study
England North 29 3.4 3.4 0 This study
England Southeast 25 0 0 0 This study
England Southwest 25 0 0 0 This study
France East 25 4.0 4.0 0 This study
France 16 0 0 0 This study
France West 14 0 0 0 This study
France, HGDP-CEPH 12 0 0 0 This study
Spain, Andalusia 29 0 0 0 15
Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study
Switzerland Northeast 32 6.3 6.3 0.0 This study
Switzerland Northwest 27 3.7 3.7 0.0 This study
Switzerland South 16 0 0 0 This study
Switzerland 16 0 0 0 This study
Italy South (2 locations) 163 1.8 1.8 0 This study
Italy North 124 6.5 6.5 0 This study
Italy Northeast 64 7.8 7.8 0 Updated from 8

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf


what it tells us is that proto-Slavs lived in east europe, but not in west Europe.... for R1a found there one should search causes either in recolonization from the refugium in the Ukraine (early post-LGM, ~20–12 KYA) or Kurgan culture expansion ...

so contrary to your strong words this data indicates that there were no Slavs "everywhere" in Europe
but it shows continuity of their existence in east Europe and also indicates proto-Slavic origin in Serbia....




And can we once and for all stop talking about the right to speculate. Speculation is mother of science.
of course its good to speculate... its not good to make claims that clearly do not hold....

LeBrok
03-06-12, 21:04
lebrok



Or you are going to ban me from the forum? Yes





So i first have to ask you did you grow up in a democratic country or a totalitarian one? I am asking this because you don't seem to know what democracy means. One of the basic principles of democracy is respecting minority opinions and allowing people with these opinions to express them. Otherwise you have totalitarianism. Considering this is EU forum, and EU is supposed to be based on democracy, then i have a right to express my opinion without it being censored or suppressed. You might not agree with it but if you are a democratic person you have to respect it.

What you don't get is that this is a privet website, and not a democratic parliament. The owner of this website, Maciamo, sets the rules and polices. Just because he allows free exchange of thoughts and discussions, doesn't mean everything is tolerated.
Use your freedoms of free society and choose not to post here, if you don't like how Eupedia is run. And don't forget that this is a privet website.





If you want to prove that my opinion is wrong, you need to use arguments, and not insults. I don't agree with your opinion, but i am not calling you stupid. I am trying to elaborate and present proofs that would support my argument, you can do the same.
Second i have to ask you if you know what forum means? Forum is place where ideas are brought out into the open, where people think aloud.
You posted your ideas free on this forum. Nobody liked them. You've been asked not to repeat them. If you don't agree with this decision, you are free to take your toys and go play somewhere else, with people who appreciate your ideas and your logic.





As a moderator you are supposed to insure that discussion on this forum is civilized, democratic ...

civilized - yes
democratic - no


Your job is not to censor and suppress ideas that you don't like.

Yes it does, though I love to exercise tolerance and open mind, as much as possible.





You closed the first thread where i expressed the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same after calling my ideas a farce.
I wish you took some clues from my actions, and didn't test my patience again.




Now you are calling my ideas stupid and are again threatening that if i don't stop saying that Celts and Slavs are one and the same you will take measures against me. So you are insulting me and my ideas and i can live with that.
...and I lost my patience. Honestly, I didn't want to do that, and I even went against my nature.


It just shows the level of your argument. But it seems that you can't stand the idea that Celts and Slavs are one and the same. I also can't stand the idea of UFO and green people visiting earth, and Big Foot still hiding in N.American forests. I would also ban whoever would keep posting about them on Eupedia.





If you are offended or insulted by the mere possibility that Celts and Slavs are one and the same then that just means that you are a racist.

I do give everyone a benefit of the doubt. So please prove to me and everyone else on this forum that you are democratic knowledge seeking non racist person.
I don't need to prove anything to you. I hope you learned that this is not a democratic forum, and don't try again calling any member of Eupedia a racist.

Now you know how it works here. Take it or leave it.
I also don't want to discuss my positions included in this post, so please don't drug this any longer and don't reply to it.

zanipolo
04-06-12, 09:23
below is the basic history of the south baltic coast which is now Poland and germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Pomerania


Balts in Kiev before the slavs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniepr_Balts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Pomerania)

dublin
04-06-12, 17:47
ok have fun guys.

dublin
04-06-12, 23:21
but before that, i thought you might want to see this:

Homer (9th century B. C.) records in Iliad[1] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn1) the Veneti in Paphlagonia as Enetoi (the Greek did not know the letter v).
Herodotus, historian (5th century B. C.), writes about Illyrian Veneti, about Veneti living around the lower stream of the Danube, and finally about Veneti inhabiting the Northern Adriatic territory.[2] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn2)
Polibus (2th century B. C.) added to the description of events during the years 219 to 146 B. C., following: »The land to the Adriatic coast was mastered by another, very old folk, named Veneti ... They speak a different language as the Celts, but what their habbits and their clothing is concearned, they differ from them only slightly /.../ Veneti and Gonomani were persuaded by Roman representatives, to join the Romans«.[3] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn3)
Demetrius of Scepsis, grammarian, archeologist (2nd century B. C.), mentions the capital of the Veneti (Enea) in Troas (Asia Minor).[4] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn4)
Strabo, historian, geographer (1st century B. C.), designates the (V)eneti in Paphlagonia as the major tribe moving towards Thrace (nowadays territory of Bulgaria) after the fall of Troy (Asia Minor).[5] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn5)
Julius Caesar, historian (1st century B. C.), reports about the Veneti living in Gaul (Brittany).[6] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn6)
Titus Livy, historian (1st century B. C.), describes how Veneti came up to the coasts of the (northern) Adriatic, also mentioning the river "Timava", which flows through the duskiness of the Škocjan caves (Slovene Ti(e)ma means the darkness).[7] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn7)
Pliny the Elder (1st century B. C.) talks about an extensive land, named Eningia, where Sarmatians, Venedi, etc. lived. He also mentions theVenetulani in central Italy.[8] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn8)
Tacitus, historian (1st century C. E.), places Veneti on the border of Suebia together with Peucinians, Sarmatians and Fenns.[9] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn9)
Ptolemy, geographer (2nd century), mentions exceedingly large nations - the (O)venedi on the whole coastal region of the Venetic gulf (The Baltic sea).[10] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn10)
Emperor Julian (4th century) presents evidence of Veneti, who settled in the proximity of Aquilea (Italy).[11] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn11)
Jordanes, historian (6th century), notes a numerous nation of Veneti, populating the area between north of Dacia (now Romania) and up to the Visla delta (the Baltic sea). [12] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn12)
In Vita s. Columbani[13] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn13) (7th century) (the Alpine) Veneti, who call themselves Slavs, are recorded (»termini Venetorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur«).
In the Fredegarius Chronicle (7th century) we can read about the Slavs designated as Vinedi.[14] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn14)
Adam of Bremen, chronicler (11th century), mentions an extensive land Sclavania, settled by Winulians, who used to be called Vandals. The land could have been ten times bigger then Sachsen, especially if we include Bohemians (Czechs) and Polians, since they are not distinguishable from each other, nor by their appearance, or by their language.[15] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn15)
In Denmark (from latest 12th century and until the year 1972) the title "King of the Vends" (Latin Vandals) was used for enthroning Danish kings.
Helmold, historian (12th century), records a vast Slavic country, where the ancient Vandals are now named Wends or Winulians.[16] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn16)
Wincenty Kadłubek / Vincent of Cracow, historian (12th century), affirms that Poles used to be called Vandals.[17] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn17)
Heimskringla, the Chronicle of Norwegian kings(12th century) mentions, that the Black Sea »divides three parts of the earth, from which is the eastern part called Asia, whereas the western part is by some called Europe, and by others Enea.«[18] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn18)
Miersuae Chronicon (13th century) equates Vandals with Slavs.[19] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn19)
Albert Crantz, historian (15th century), reports about Wandals or Wends, and says that they are Slavs, living as a single nation from Poland to Dalmatia. According to him, the mighty acts in France, Spain and Africa are ascribed to the Wends.[20] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn20)
Marcin Bielski (16th century) says that Wandals was once the name for Slavs.[21] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn21)
The Pomeranian chronicler Thomas Kantzow (1505-1542) writes that the »Slau(v)s and Wandals are the same thing / .../ just like the Germans are called differently - Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«: Original text:»Dan Slaui und Wandali ist ein Dinck / .../ gleich wie die Teutzschen werden oft on Unterschied geheissen Germani, Teuthones, Alemanni.«[22] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn22)
Christophorum Entzelt von Saluelt (16. century) records ancient populousness of the lands east from the Elbe (Laba) river with Wends. At the same time he equates Veneti and Sclavenes.[23] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn23)
Sebastian Münster, cartographer (16th century), mentions a once mighty nation on the East sea (Ostsee) named Vandals or Wends. He also reports on Wandals who settled regions in eastern Germany, where inhabitants are called Sclavs or Wends. Original text: »Mecklenburg-Pommern-Preussen: jtem Brandenburg und was dem Polenland zugelegen, alles Wandali geheißen und ihre Einwohner haben auch Sclaven oder Wendengeheißen.«[24] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn24)
Antol Vramec, chronicler (16th century), writes in his chronicle for the year 928 the following: The Heneti, who name themselves Sloveni, were at that time knocked down in Germany.[25] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn25)
Adam Bohorič, linguist (16th century), links Heneti, Vene(d)ti, Vinds, Vandals and Slavs together as a single nation.[26] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn26)
Mavro Orbin (16th century) numbers Veneti, Vends, Vandals, Illyrians, Sarmatians ... among Slavs.[27] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn27)
The Chronicle of Brandenburg (16. century) emphasizes the mighty predecessors of Wends, the Vandals, who sacked Rome and Carthage, and mentions their king Genserich as the king of Vandals.[28] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn28)
Johann Weichard Baron von Valvasor, historian, geographer (1689),wrote: »Wends and Sclavenes are one folk, Wandals and Wends one and the same nation.« (»Wenden und Sclaven seynd ein Volk, Wandalen und Wenden einerley Nation.[29] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn29)
V. N. Tatiščev, ethnographer (17th -18th century), classifies the Heneti as Slavs, as well as the Vandalic or Vendenic state as the first known Slavic state.[30] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn30)
A. L. Schlözer, historian (18th century), defended his thesis about Slavs originating from Illyrians and the Veneti.[31] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn31)
Vasilij Trediakovski (18th century) classifies Dalmatians, Serbians, Bulgarians ... among Vandals.[32] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn32)
Davorin Trstenjak (19th century) wrote about the ancient Adriatic Veneti, who belonged to a Vindish-Slavic family. He accented their affinity with the Aremoric (Brittany) and Baltic Veneti.[33] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn33)
In Helmolts Weltgeschichte (end of the 19th century) it is indicated, that the Veneti, Wends and Winds were actually ancestors of Slovenes, and that they used to settle the old roman provinces Vindelitia, Raetia, Noricum, Pannonia.[34] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/multilingua/english/39-veneti-mysterious-people#_edn34)
[1] Iliad, 851.
[2] Herodotus, History vol. 7 / G B Pellegrini, A L Prosdocimi, La lingua venetica, Padova 1967, V, 9.
[3] Polibios, Obča zgodovina, Državna založba Slovenije, Ljubljana 1964, str. 88; p. 92.
[4] On the Martialling of the Trojan Forces.
[5] Strabon, Geografija.
[6] De Bello Gallico.
[7] Titus Livius, History of Rome, Loeb Classic Library, William Heinemann, London, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Mass., 1933 / Titi Livi, Ab Vrbe condita, liber I, http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/liv.html.
[8] Historia naturalis, Liber IV: 96-97.
[9] Cornelius Tacitus, De origine et situ Germaorum liber (Germania), 64.
[10] Ptolemej, De Geographia, III 5. 21.
[11] The Works of Emperor Julian, Engl. transl. Wilmer Cave Wright, I. vol., Loeb Classical Library, William Heinemann , Cambridge, Mass., Harvard University Press, 1954, The Heroic Deeds of Constantius, pp. 190- 193.
[12] Iordanes, De origine actibusce Getarum (Getica), Roma 1986, str 43 (XXIII poglavje); S Rutar, Kako važnost ima "Jordanis" za slovensko zgodovinopisje, Letopis Matice slovenske, Ljubljana 1880, p. 86.
[13] J. Bobbiensis, Vitae s. Columbani.
[14] Fredegar Scholasticus, Historia Francorum, I, 48.
[15] Adamus Bremensis, Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum (et Scholast), 11. century, II, 18.
[16] Helmoldi presbyteri Bozoviensis, Chronica Sclavorum et Venedorum, 1171, p. 2, 14.
[17] W. Kadłubek, Mistrza Wincentego Kronika Polska, Warszawa 1974.
[18] Heimskringla or The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway, The Ynglinga Saga, or The Story of the Yngling Family from Odin to Halfdan the Black, Snorri Sturluson c. 1179 - 1241, Online Medieval and Classical Library Release #15b, http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/.
[19] Miersuae Chronicon, Monumenta Poloniae Historica II, 1872.
[20] Albertus Crantzius, Vandalia, lat. Hamburg 1519.
[21] M Bielski, Kronika Polska.
[22] Thomas Kantzow, Chronik von Pommern in Niederdeutscher Mundart (orig. 1535), Dr. Martin Sändig oHG., 1973; ISBN 3-500-28260-1.
[23] Entzelt von Salfeld, Chronicon der Alten Mark, Magdeburg 1579.
[24] S. Münster, Cosmographiae Universalis, Basileae 1572.
[25] A. Vramec, Kronika, Ljubljana 1578.
[26] A. Bohorič, Zimske urice / Arcticae horulae, Vitenberg, 1584.
[27] M. Orbini, Il Regno degli Slavi /Kraljestvo Slovanov, naslov "Historiografska knjiga o izvoru imena Slave in o razširitvi slovanskega naroda in njegovih carjev ter vladarjev z mnogimi imeni in z mnogimi carstvi, kraljestvi in provincami", 1722.
[28] Angelus, Chronik der Mark Brandenburg, 1598.
[29] J. V. Valvasor, Slava Vojvodine Kranjske / Die Ehre des Herzogthums Crain, Nürnberg 1689.
[30] V. N. Tatiščev, Slovani in Rusija, str. 21 / Собрание сочинений. Т.1. История Российская. М. 1994, частъ 1. См. также фрагментъі в сборнике "Славяне и Русъ" p. 16-23.
[31] Х. А Шлецер, О происхождении словен вообще и в особенности словен российских, М. 1810.
[32] B. Тредиаковский, РИ, I-XVI - Римская история ... сочиненная г. Ролленем ... а с Французского переведенная тщанием и трудами В. Тредиаковского ... Т. I - XVI. СПб., 1761-1767.
[33] D. Trstenjak, Raziskavanja na polji staroslovanske zgodovine, Letopis matice slovenske, Ljubljana.
[34] H F Helmolt, Weltgeschichte, fünfter Band, Bibliographisches Institut, Leipzig und Wien 1900 (1899-1907), pp. 269, 270 (english: London 1902, ruskij: Petrograd); www.hervardi.com/helmolt.php (http://www.hervardi.com/helmolt.php).

dublin
04-06-12, 23:25
and this

The Julian Alps were sometimes called the Venetic Alps.
(Ammian Marcelino: "alpium juliarum, quas venetas appellabant antiquitas".)
The neighboring Dolomites have been named
Venetic mountains by the Roman soldiers.
The same name was aplied to the Carpathian mountains.
Centuries ago the hills in present-day eastern Germany were known as the Venetic Hills. Hohe Tauern, a mountain chain in Austria used to be called the Venetic Mountain Chain (Montes Veneti, Windische Berge), its western part is still called the Venediger Gruppe, with its highest peak:Grossvenediger.
The region Veneto and the city of Venezia (Venice)
are directly and indirectly connected to the Veneti.
Vindobona was the ancient Roman name for Vienna (The Czech name for Vienna is Viden)

Wen(e)denstock, Wendenwasser, Wendenalm, Wendengletscher etc. are names referring to Vends in Switzerland. The present-day region ofWindisch, which served as a Roman military base, was known as Vindonissa.
The upper part of Lake Constance (Bodensee) bordering Austria, Germany and Switzerland, was once called the Venetic Lake (Lacus Venetus). It was mentioned by Pomponius Mela.
(Pomponius Mela, De Corographia III, 24- 44 around 44 B. C.)
German lands - Sachsen, Bavaria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg (Pomerania) are mentioned as Vendic lands (W(i)endland, lat. Vindelicia). In Latin sources old Hanseatic Cities (for example Lübeck) are referred to as: "urbs sclavica" (Slavic Cities), and on hanseatic maps as "urbs vandalica" (Vendic Cities).
Until the 15th Century maps referred to the territory between the Elbe and the Weichsel Rivers (Sclavania) asVandalia orWendland (the map ofClaudius Clavus, Firenze 1467 ).
Not so long ago, Poland's northern part (coastal Pomerania) was called Vandalia, whereas Vindland was fow the Scandinavians used to designate the proximal Baltic Slavic territory. (Saga of Olaf Trygveson, the first Norse king).

The Baltic Sea was once called the Venetic Sea (Venedos kolpos, Wendile mare), but we also know of the Venetic gulf on the northern Adriatic. Russia is called Venäjä in Finnish and Venemaa in Estonian. Additionally, the words for Russia and/or Russian language appear in Estonian asvenäläinen and venelane and Old Prussian as vena (from wenidiz or wenediz).
In Brittany (the north-western peninsula of France) we find the Venetic Gulf and the Island of Vindilis. In antiquity according to Julius Caesar (De Bello Gallico) this land was dominated by the Veneti. It used to be a commercial connection to the British Venedotia (Gwynedd).
Andalucía of Spain is most likely named after the Vandals or Veneti. On the map by Anville, from 1761, we see the older designation Vandalitia. The (mountainous) Granada was known as Agarnata. The elements: Kar, Kor, Gor, Gar, are the usual way of indicating mountains or mountain groups in Central Europe.
A part of Slovenian Country between the rivers Mura and Raba was called Vendség (Vendic Country) by the Hungarians, whereas the Slavic speakers who inhabited the territory were called Vends (lat. Vandals).
There are thousands of other place names across the face of Europe like Veneto, Wenden, Winden ..., which help us to connect the dots and understand the continuum of the Venetic identity.

dublin
04-06-12, 23:52
or this

Excerpts from the book The Making of the Slavs [1] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn1), written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize (http://www.historians.org/prizes/AWARDED/AdamsWinner.htm) of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.
Florin Curta is an Associate Professor of Medieval History and Archaeology at the University of Florida. He studied History-Philosophy at the University of Bucharest, Medieval Studies at Cornell University (Ithaca) and received his Ph. D. in History at Western Michigan University (Kalamazoo). He also worked as an archaeologist performing field surveys and excavations with the Institute of Archaeology "Vasile Pârvan" (Bucharest). Prof. Curta wrote numerous articles and several books focused on southeastern Europe (more information is available his website (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta):http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta; 5. 2. 2008). His achievements in both history and archaeology, presented in his comprehensive book, offer a new methodological approach to southeastern Europe in the Early Middle Age. As an excellent basis for further research, this book merits our sincere affirmation.


Formation of Sclavenic ethnicity

The book represents a new approach towards the origin of the Slavs. Curta\'s conception is that »early medieval ethnicity was embedded in sociopolitical relations just as modern ethnicity is. Ethnicity was socially and culturally constructed, a form of social mobilization used in order to reach certain political goals.« (p. 34)

One could agree that the problem of Sclavenic (I use this medieval term intentionally) ethnicity was a result of a unique linguistic ethnogenesis (taking their wide expansion into consideration). On the contrary, many other tribes were either political (ethnos) or military (folk, fulca, pulkas) groups, from time to time resulting in major ethnic communities or settlements. Therefore in past centuries the term »Slavs« was created, and non-critically applied to some populations and regions. However, avoiding this kind of misunderstanding, Curta often uses the term Sclavenes, a label frequently employed in the early Medieval.

As Curta describes, he finds an original solution to solve the problem of Sclavenic pre-sixth century presence: »Instead of a great flood of Slavs coming out of the Pripet marshes, I envisage a form of group identity which could arguably be called ethnicity and emerged in response to Justinian\'s implementation of a building project on the Danube frontier and in the Balkans. The Slavs, in other words, did not come from the north, but became Slavs only in contact with the Roman frontier.« (p. 3)

To simplify, the circumstances were a crucial factor in forming the Sclavenic ethnic community. Nevertheless Curta refuses to write or even think about Slavic history before the sixth century: »Though in agreement with those who maintain that the history of the Slavs began in the sixth century, I argue that the Slavs were an invention of the sixth century. Inventing, however, presupposed both imagining or labeling by outsiders and self-identification.« (p. 335)

In other words predecessors of Sclavenes were present in the Balkans already before the 6th century, though not yet formed as an ethnically compact community. Can we therefore assume that proto-Slavic languages were spoken by larger communities in this territory (southeastern Europe) long before the 6th century? This seems to be a logical conclusion. Otherwise we could hardly believe that Curta would be able to state that »Common Slavic itself may have been used as a lingua franca within and outside Avar qaganate. /.../ we may presume that duke Raduald learned how to speak Slavic in Friuli. His Slavic neighbors in the north apparently spoke the same language as the Dalmatian Slavs.« (p. 345)




Sclavenic migrations?

For our purposes it is Sclavenic (Venetic) ethnogenesis which is most interesting. Prof. Curta speaks directly to this: »Our present day knowledge of the origin of the Slavs /is/ to a large extent, a legacy of the 19th century. A scholarly endeavor inextricably linked with forging national identities /.../« (p. 6)

He also challenges the reader »to move away from the migrationist model which has dominated the discipline of Slavic archaeology ever since its inception.« (p. 307). The combination of both the historical and archaeological approach could be seen as one that gives the author more freedom to revise the firmly grounded model of the early medieval Slavic mass migration.

According to Curta, among Sclavenes there was no »obscure progression« involving a more or less permanent change of residence in the 7th century. Regretfully, the question of when the Sclavenic ancestors first inhabited these regions has yet to be answered. We can only assume that Protoslavs in the Balkans were a Pre-roman phenomenon. Selected excerpts confirm our conclusion: »I began this chapter with the statement that the nature of the Slavic settlement remains obscure to many modern historians. Several conclusions follow from the preceding discussion, but the most important is that, whether or not followed by actual settlement, there is no "infiltration" and obscure progression. The evidence of written sources is quite explicit about this. /.../ The problem with applying this concept of migration to the sixth- and seventh-century Slavs is that there is no pattern of an unique, continuous, and sudden invasion. Moreover, until the siege of Thessalonica during Heraclius\' early power, there is no evidence at all of outward migration in the sense of a permanent change of residence. /.../ What John /of Ephesus/ had in mind were warriors, not migrant farmers.« (p. 113)

Not only in the north, also Sclavenes in the south (to the coast of the Aegean Sea) did not migrate in the 6th century.




Archaeological evidence

According to Curta, there is also archaeological evidence to move away from the »migrationist model«: »More important, assemblages of the Lower Danube area, where, according to the migrationist model, the Slavs migrated from the Pripet marshes, long antedate the earliest evidence available from assemblages in the alleged Urheimat.« (p. 337)

It would be interesting to know which finds in the Lower Danube area were taken into consideration here. Not only new evidence - also new interpretations seem to overthrow the idea of mass migrations: »"Cultures", as one archeologist noted, "do not migrate. It is often only a very narrowly defined, goal-oriented subgroup that migrates. "To speak of the Prague culture as the culture of the migrating Slavs is, therefore, a nonsense.« (p. 307)

Regretfully even modern archaeological research in Slovenia is based on such dubious assumptions, illustrated in a paper by Prof. Mitja Guštin, Ph.D.: »Remains of an extensive early-medieval settlement are among most important discoveries of archaeological research at Nova tabla close to Murska Sobota. These remains prove Slavic settling from the 6th to the 9th Century.« [2] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn2) The key argument springs from the assumption that the Prague culture is the one proving migrations, an idea labeled by Curta as »a nonsense«. He moreover points to other »ethnicities« as the ones responsible for the southern branch of the Prague culture: »Such pots were hastily classified as Slavic, Prague-type pottery, in an attempt to provide an archaeological illustration to Procopius’ story of Hildigis and his retinue of Sclavene warriors (see Chapter 3). Similar pots, however, appear in contemporary children burials east of the Tizsa river in “Gepidia.” This further indicates that deposition of handmade pots should be interpreted in terms of age status, not ethnicity.«. (p. 193)

Even where the so called Grubenhäuser (sunken buildings) are concerned we should be more cautious: »Archaeologists /.../ divide "Gepidia" into three areas: the Tisza plain, north Serbia, and Transilvania. Large sixth-century settlements excavated in Transilvania include sunken buildings (Grubenhäuser) /.../ Such buildings were common in contemporary settlement of Central and Western Europe. The earliest, but also richest, burials, dated to the second half of the fifth century also come from Transivania. High-status burials /.../ may indicate the presence of a power center, perhaps the most important in the area during the half-century following the demise of Attila\'s Hunnic Empire.« (p. 194)

Interestingly in the book Balkan Prehistory, Douglass W. Bailey mentions in the Balkans the semi-subterranean pit buildings similar to Grubenhäuser. These semi-subterranean pit buildings have been a form of simple dwelling places at least from 6500 BC and continued as such even after the breakdown of the élite (end of the Copper age). [3] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn3) Indeed there is no reason to believe that archaeological particularities give any hints of a migration of a community. This could only be seen as one of the key arguments, because of which the 6th Century mass migration is loosing its credibility.

Curta argues that »The distribution of hoards in the Balkans would at best indicate that large tracts in the western and central parts were not touched by invasions at all.« (p. 170)

He argues that distribution and frequency of the so-called coin hoards do not support the migration theory: »The distribution of sixth-century hoards in the Balkans reveals, however, a striking difference between central regions, such as Serbia and Macedonia, and the eastern provinces included in the diocese of Thrace. With just one exception, there is no hoard in the eastern Balkans with a terminus post quem before 600.« (p. 171)

In light of this, the presence of the coin hoards could be re-interpreted. Curta suggests that they could be the result of a closed Byzantine economy. For example, the hoards of five to nine solidi could »indicate the presence of the Roman army, not Avar or Slavic attacks.«. (p. 178)

Furthermore, it was not only mis-interpretations but also inaccurate dating and flawed methods that forced the migrationist model into a »cul-de-sac«. Such arguments had encountered a dead-end and could no longer be expanded upon. In the Chapter titled DATING THE CHANGE: WHERE WERE THE EARLY SLAVS? (pp. 228-235) Curta cites »serious methodological flaws« and misdatings in archaeological approaches towards migrations of the Slavs, even in the »Greek territory«. This argument strikes yet another crippling blow against migrationism.

With these and other proofs, Curta challenges scholars to revisit migrationist conceptions: »First there is already enough evidence to move away from the migrationist model which has dominated the discipline of Slavic archaeology ever since its inception. A retreat from migrationism is necessary simply because the available data do not fit any of the current models for the study of (pre)historic migration. Cultural correspondences were too often explained in terms of long-distance migration, despite lack of any clear concept of migration to guide such explanations.« (p. 307)




Slaveni - Veneti - Wends?

Regarding the connection between Sclavenes and Veneti, Curta\'s conclusion is breathtaking even if applied only to the northern Veneti: »Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.« (p. 13)

The failure to distinguish between various Veneti groups may lead to a link between the Baltic Veneti and the Alpine Wends (or Winds). If such a link existed, the relations should be visible to us. For example, present day Wendic toponyms (Wendisch, Windisch, Venediger (http://www.veneti.info/component/content/?task=view&id=52&Itemid=188), etc.;http://www.veneti.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=188 (http://www.veneti.info/component/content/?task=view&id=52&Itemid=188), 1. 3. 2008) could be relics of past Venetic settlements.

Curta also analyzes Jordanes on the Veneti: »Jordanes calls one and the same river Viscla when referring to Sclavenes, and Vistula, when speaking of Venethi. This was interpreted as an indication of two different sources. In the case of Venethi, the source may have been an ancient similar to Ptolemy\'s geography. It is equally possible, however, Jordanes was inspired here by Tacitus, for, like him, he constantly associates Venethi with Aesti.« (p. 40)
However, Jordanes\' report retains a convincing validity regardless of his sources.

On the next page (p. 41), Curta divides the Veneti with the following argument: »In the "catalogue of nations" /from Jordanes\' Getica/, we are told that the Venethi were "chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes," which could only mean that Venethi were subdivided into two categories, the Sclavenes and the Antes.« This seems an interpretive difference and is perhaps best left decided by readers. However when analyzing Fredegar\'s and Bobbio\'s report, Curta forms a more solid conclusion: »Fredegar had two apparently equivalent terms for the same ethnie: Sclauos coinomento Winedos. There are variants for both terms, such as Sclavini or Venedi. The \'Wends\' appear only in political context: the Wends, and not the Slavs, were befulci of the Avars; the Wends, and not the Slavs, made Samo their king. It is therefore, possible that \'Wends\' and \'Sclavenes\' are meant to denote a specific social and political configuration, in which such concepts as state or ethnicity are relevant, while \'Slavs\' is a more general term, used in a territorial rather than an ethnic sense. \'Wends\' and \'Slavs\' were already in use when Fredegar wrote Book IV. They first appear in Jonas of Bobbio\'s Life of St. Columbanus,([termini]Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur). written sometime between 639 and 643. According to Jonas, Columbanus had once thought of preaching to the Wends, who were called Slavs.« (p. 60)
Representing another very interesting interpretation of a source, Curta once again supports the idea that medieval authors were not mistaken or misled.


A surprise in the scientific field?
It may be valuable to note that some of Curta\'s predecessors outlined a similar approach. Archaeologist Colin Renfrew states that there is no evidence for cultural and linguistic changes in Europe which archaeological research could offer. [4] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn4) There are also papers such as these two modern works: Veneti -First Builders of European Community (M. Bor, J. Šavli, I. Tomažič, 1989, 1996-English version) and Origini delle lingue d\'Europa (M. Alinei, 1996, 2000). In the former, though written by non-professionals seeking to validate a specific national identity, some arguments still find support in the historical and linguistic evidence: »colonization of Slavs in the Alps during the above time /6th Century/ cannot be authenticated by any historical source. It represents a fabricated, fictitious view that is repeated without critical examination.« (p. 5)
In the latter, Mario Alinei also uses a linguistic argument: »I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the \'arrival\' of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live.«
Prof. Florin Curta deftly maneuvers among German, French, English, Romanian, Italian, Russian, Bulgarian, Czech, Ancient Greek and Latin texts. This is surely a big advantage for doing comprehensive research work, since there is a much wider spread of material available. In addition, Curta\'s ability to span many languages with his research may also have inspired him to mount a successful challenge against some traditional or national linguistic-based theories.


Literature
[1] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_ednref1) Florin Curta, The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c. 500-700, Cambridge, UK 2001, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0 521 80202 4.
[2] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_ednref2) M. Guštin, Starejša bronasta doba v Prekmurju. Horizont pramenaste (litzen) lončenine; v: Zbornik soboškega muzeja 8 [uredil Janez Balažic] - Murska Sobota: Pokrajinski muzej Murska Sobota, 2005, p. 86.
[3] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_ednref3) Douglass W. Bailey, Balkan Prehistory, Routledge, London, New York 2000.
[4] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_ednref4) Colin Renfrew, Archeology and Language, I Cape Ltd., London 1987, in: Proceedings of the First International Topical Conference The Veneti within the Ethnogenesis of the Central-European Population, Jutro, Ljubljana 2002, 24-34 (ISBN 961-6433-06-7).
[5] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_ednref5) Joseph Skulj, Y-Chromosome Frequencies and the Implications on the Theories relating to the Origin and Settlement of Finno-Ugric, Proto-Hungarian and Slavic Populations, Proceedings of the Fifth International Topical Conference Origin of Europeans, Jutro, Ljubljana 2007, 39 (ISBN 961-6433-83-9).

***********************
P. S. Here is a list with prof Curta\'s other publications pertaining to the Slavic ethnogenesis:

Tworzenie Slowian. Powrót do slowianskiej etnogenezy." In Nie-Slowianie o poczatkach Slowian. Edited by Przemyslaw Urbanczyk, pp. 27-55 and 157-164. Poznan/Warsaw: Poznanskie Towarzystwo Przyjaciól Nauk/Instytut Archeologii i Etnologii Polskiej Akademii Nauk (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/urbasn.pdf) , 2006 (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/urbasn.pdf), 1. 2. 2008.

"Frontier ethnogenesis in Late Antiquity: the Danube, the Tervingi, and the Slavs." In Borders, Barriers, and Ethnogenesis. Frontiers in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Edited by Florin Curta (Studies in the Early Middle Ages, 12), pp. 173-204. Turnhout: Brepols, 2005.

"Barbarians in Dark-Age Greece: Slavs or Avars?" In Civitas Divino-Humana. In honorem annorum LX Georgii Bakalov. Edited by Tsvetelin Stepanov and Veselina Vachkova, pp. 513-550. Sofia: Centar za izsledvaniia na balgarite Tangra TanNakRa IK, 2004. (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/barba.pdf), 1. 2. 2008.

"From Kossinna to Bromley: ethnogenesis in Slavic archaeology." In On Barbarian Identity. Critical Approaches to Ethnicity in the Early Middle Ages. Edited by Andrew Gillett (Studies in the Early Middle Ages, 4), pp. 201-218. Turnhout: Brepols, 2002, (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/kossinna.pdf) 1. 2. 2008.

"The \'Prague type\'. A critical approach to pottery classification." In Hoi skoteinoi aiones tou Byzantiou (7os-9os ai.). The Dark Centuries of Byzantium (7th-9th c.). Ed. by Eleonora Kountoura-Galake (Diethne Symposia 9), pp. 171-188. Athens: National Hellenic Research Foundation, Institute for Byzantine Research, 2001.

"The Slavic lingua franca (Linguistic notes of an archaeologist turned historian)." East Central Europe/L\'Europe du Centre-Est 31 (2004), no. 1: 125-148 (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fcurta/lingua.pdf), 1. 2. 2008.

dublin
04-06-12, 23:57
A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn5) Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.

dublin
05-06-12, 00:07
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.

how yes no 3
05-06-12, 01:05
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.
this conclusion doesnot follow from historic data above...
in fact, Veneti on atlantic coast are area where Breton Celtic is still spoken and is one of the places with most dominant R1b-L21 and no R1a at all....

btw. interesting link
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm

zanipolo
05-06-12, 09:09
A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn5) Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.

have you read Skulj?
He is proposing that the slovenes and other south slavic people where always in the balkans as original people and they became slavs due to learning the slavic language after the slavic migration period of 600AD.

He is trying to say that these slavs where there before the illyrians and thracians, basically, the south slavs are not slavs and the original people where absorbed by illyrians or thracians.

In regards to your carpathian mountains, they have never been called venetic mountians...there original name was Montes bastanae after the germanic tribe and later they became montes Sarmatae after the Sarmatians

zanipolo
05-06-12, 09:11
so Veneti which are Slavs on the Atlantic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on the Baltic coast, Veneti which are Slavs on Adriatic coast and Veneti which are Slavs in central and eastern Europe.

what about portugal, spain, wales, ireland and scotland...there where veneti tribes there too

dublin
05-06-12, 10:08
have you read Skulj?
He is proposing that the slovenes and other south slavic people where always in the balkans as original people and they became slavs due to learning the slavic language after the slavic migration period of 600AD.

Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to


Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.

Yetos
05-06-12, 11:33
Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to


Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.




well just few notices
The richest language (diversity) of all IE still is Greek
Modern Greek is consider the most rich language of the world
Linguistic diversity has to do with the contact with other languages
South Slavic diversity especially has to do that land and people spoke other languages before, learn and assimilate Slavic, and also came in contact with Turkic populations, as also they were occupied by Turks

Lets check Slavic Makedonian,
in the land known languages that exist
Thracian-Getae
Greek
Roman
Slavic Serbian after Dusan
Slavic Bulgarian (Severi) and Cymeon
Cuman
Albanian
Turks
(Germanic Goths maybe)

as you that make the local language to have more diversity than another Slavic area that did not have so many contacts.

In fact that is a prove that south Slavic were not the primary language before Slavic migrations to Balkans


on the other hand lets see the most conservative Slavic the Lithouania
Lithouania has the least contacts with other languages and Baltic is relative to Slavic so it remains with low diversity, poor and pure

now about Slovenians and Carantanians Carnia and Carinthia are connected with Greek corinth, Carnios Apollo and have origin in minor Asia the area known as Karia if Carinthians were Slavic speakers that makes that Slavic exist in minor Asia in Karia,
the result of such a claim or prove show that IE was a farmers language nad not a hunters
if Carinthians were Slavic it means that Kurgan has no point and agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian minor Asian) is truth

Another point is the archaiology,
If Carinthians were Slavic and proto Slavic, then they should express their selves and leave their languages behind them, even by using another alphabet as Odrysse Thracians did,
do we have Slavic vocabulary in Slovenia before Cyrill with another alphabet?

dublin
05-06-12, 12:12
what about portugal, spain, wales, ireland and scotland...there where veneti tribes there too

yes there were. and this is where you find the explanation for "the Celtic polution of the ancient Gaelic languages" as Irish writer film maker and historian Bob Quinn states in his book the Atlantean Irish which was printed in 1983. He is a native Gaelic speaker and a great supporter of the Irish language and culture. He is by the way the person who first pointed to me that there is something funy about the Celtic idea. In the book he cites many Irish scolars who support the idea that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and that Irish are not Celts and that their language and culture predate the so called celtic invasion.

Here is his website: http://conamara.org/index.php?page=biography

According to Quinn, the idea of "Celtic" origins was probably invented by Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) intellectuals in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) eager to affirm a "racial" pan-European identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_identity) amongst the unusual inhabitants of the western seaboards.

here is an audio interview with Bob Quinn. Listen to the real Irish music that you will never hear in Irish pubs.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/booksandartsdaily/irish-writer-bob-quinn/3892134

here is a part of the documetnary series based on the book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqabDHMQczk

zanipolo
05-06-12, 12:34
Yes i did. But there are also the small problem of:

1. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian having the biggest dialect diversity of all the Slavic languages which points to this area of Europe as being the birthplace of the Slavic language.
2. Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian and Macedonian containing the oldest versions of Slavic words and as pointed in many different linguistic works could be one of the sources for the development of latin and greek.
3. Slavic dialects were used for deciphering Etruscan and Venetic inscriptions.
All this (plus the genetic data) points to


Slovenes did live in the same place in antiquity and they were Slavs, the oldest original root branch of the Slavic tree.



so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

none of your number 2 where original slavs, check your history books.....not the Olga one

dublin
05-06-12, 13:20
this conclusion doesnot follow from historic data above...
in fact, Veneti on atlantic coast are area where Breton Celtic is still spoken and is one of the places with most dominant R1b-L21 and no R1a at all....

I saw a documentary few years ago on bbc which talked about roman conquests and the way they were described in Roman historical documents. The documentary concentrated on the campaigns in Carthage and Gaul. The conclusion was that roman documents should be trusted as much as you would trust a nazi propaganda when it tries to justify the holocaust. And also the bbc documentary states that in both cases Romans committed a genocide, almost completely destroying the local population.
The early British chronicles state that when Anglo Saxons invaded England they committed a genocide against the Celtic population. The country was destroyed and it's people mostly killed. The remnants of the Celtic population fled to Wales, Scotland (Ireland) and Armorica.
Talking about genocide, how about Saxon genocide against the Slavs in north of Germany. Chroniclers talk about relentless killing of pagans, blood drenched empty land and talk about invitation to the Germanic peoples to come and settle the now empty conquered lands. Or what about the Balkans where the during just last 100 years the Serbian population has been decimated. Or the 30 year war, the bloodiest conflict in Europe which ravaged north eastern and central Europe, the exact place where northern Wends once lived. Or the first and second world war during which the male population of germany has been almost destroyed or at least dramatically changed. Or the expulsion of germans from eastern Europe after the second world war. or the exchange of populations between Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Turkey. Or turkish genocide against Armenians. Or Stalin’s genocide in Ukraina and Belorusia, or Hitler’s genocide in in Ukraina and Belorusia, or Irish famine, or reconquesta in Spain which completely changed the population of southern Spain and Portugal, or Catar crusade which committed a genocide against the Langdoc people, or Teutonic crusade which used convert or kill strategy against the Slavic population in the now “balt” countries or…
You can’t use today’s genetic data without taking this into account. Get me the data obtained from burial sites that predate these genocidal events and then we can talk about who lived where in antiquity.

dublin
05-06-12, 13:23
zanipolo i never even read olga's book. it is impossible to find.


so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

the above claims about the migration being a lie, were nor made by me made by me but by slovenian historians and mr florin Curta. remember:


Excerpts from the book The Making of the Slavs [1] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn1), written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize (http://www.historians.org/prizes/AWARDED/AdamsWinner.htm) of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.

He, and people who gave him the aword according to you have no idea what they are talking about, and are all just quoting Olga...

zanipolo
05-06-12, 13:39
zanipolo i never even read olga's book. it is impossible to find.

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

and the above claims were nor made by me made by me but by slovenian historians and mr florin Curta. remember:



He, and people who gave him the aword according to you have no idea what they are talking about, and are all just quoting Olga...

so, are you saying that slavic people where in Italy in the year 1050BC ?

Mr Bor is the only slovenean slavic to claim the veneti where slavs, Skulj claims ,the slovenes are not slavic but a mix of venetic in the west, illyrian in the east and some celtic in the north of slovenia. He later tried to claim along with Cankar that the slovenes are more tyrolean than Venetic.

IMO and I go with archeological finds in which 70% of venetic finds are in northeast italy is that the western part of slovenia are ancient venetics and only ancient venetics, not slavic, not germanic, not celtic, not illyric. As i stated the historical records show that the venetic people where split by the invading gallic carni tribe , who to this day remain in Italy as the modern friulian people

dublin
05-06-12, 14:13
how do you explain that the venetian and etruscan texts can be translated using slavic languages? again not my claims.

hope
05-06-12, 14:33
Just out of interest dublin, what sources does Bob Quinn use for his conclusions?

dublin
05-06-12, 14:54
Bob spent 20 years researching linguistic and anthropological data. He consulted many Irish and international experts and has traveled to many countries to examine the archeological data. He published his findings up to the year 1983 in his book and the documentary series. He continues to collect the relevant data even today. Bob was the first to publicize the idea of the Atlantean civilization separate from the rest of the Europeans. The idea that has since been supported by linguistic and genetic data.
I was planning to give all the references that he states from the book, but because the book does not exist in digital form, this will take some time. I will start tomorrow.
One of my favorite statements from the book is this:
Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

by the way you can buy the book online i think...

dublin
05-06-12, 14:58
please read and consider the strength of the linguistic argument:

The Barbaric-Pelasgian names of the heroes in the Trojan Wars Period
explained with the use of Macedonian and Slavic Languages
Author : Odyssey Belchevsky May 2007, ©® (10 pages)
Prologue
The Trojan Wars took place approx. 1,100- 1250 BC. The events of these wars have been
sung in the form of the Homeric Epics, which became part of the fundamental Classic
literature of Western Civilization and culture. Today it is not clearly known as to what was
the original Language that these poems / epics were sung in. It appears that for a very long
time these epics were carried on from generation to generation as a verbal tradition.
However it is a fact that this type of epic singing still exists today with the Slavic Peoples in
the Balkans.
According to Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price, on the subject of the Language of Homer,
..“It is no novelty that certain words in both the Iliad and the Odyssey have a hazy
meaning and that they are derived from older, now non-existent words of unknown
meaning; these words, while they do not seriously hinder the general understanding of
this or that particular line, are, nevertheless, a source of puzzlement; however, on a more
cautious view of the matter, there are many place-names whose meaning is utterly
unknown, for, while they may have some sort of meaning in Greek, it must be presumed
that these names are derived from far older pre-Greek language-forms (perhaps with
slight variants in orthography) whose original meaning can be nothing more than an
educated guess”……
Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price,…..… In sum “the subject-matter of the Homeric epics—in
particular, the subject matter and its corresponding details—must have been developed in
a non-Mycenaean Linear B language (in a distant periphery of a Hellenic scenario), and, if
the line of inquiry is in the right direction, one might ponder whether the language was
internal to the subject-matter (that is, "Trojan"), or independent of it. Thus, "Homer",
rather than the "author" of the epics, might better be thought of as their "transcriber",
from a hitherto unknown language into a sophisticated (if not exquisite) Ionian language
of the day.
“It is extremely laborious (if not altogether dangerous) to attempt an etymology of this or
that Homeric geonym (ethnicon or toponym) from the Mycenaean Linear B, simply on two
counts: first, the paucity of Linear B vocabulary, and, second, a doubt whether the great
array of squiggles and glyphs which represent a Linear B language have been correctly
identified phonemically... for, on this wise, there seems to be disagreement among
scholars. By contrast with these difficulties is the ease (and internal coherence) with which
etymologies of Homeric geonyms may be adduced with a basis in a Slavic
vocabulary.”…….
The Names of the Trojan – Homeric heroes
In the distant past when the Trojan Wars Epics ( Homeric Epics) were sung/told in a folk
song style fashion, the heroes were given second /additional names that fitted their
attributes, deeds, and achievements during their lives. This is common occurrence in many
cultures and is found in many other famous names in history like the English names of the
Medieval Kings and heroes such as King Richard ‘the Lion heart ‘, a name given by the
people to truly describe and confirm his bravery and courage. An other example is the
classical name Plato, properly "broad-shouldered" (from platys "broad ;”). His original
name was Aristocleo-s.
After a careful analysis of the Homeric names, it becomes quite clear that the names of
these heroes of the Trojan Wars Period described in the Homeric Epics, were of ‘Barbarian‘
origin not related to the Greeks or Greek language. Today, these names can be identified
with common words in, and explained with the help of the Modern Slavic Languages.
1.Laomedon,
He was the father of Podarces/ Priam, King of Troy, who was killed by Heracles. Analysing
this name and reinstating the missing sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’ also
known as the ‘digamma’, we arrive at the word ‘laFomedon’ > ‘lavo-met-on’ ‘d’↔’t’
( lit.‘ he the lion wrestler-thrower’) or. ‘the lion thrower he is’ Macedonian lav > lavo =
lion ; Macedonian ‘met > metni = to throw; Macedonian ‘ on’ = he, It is a known fact that
lions lived in the lower part of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia minor in ancient times. The
lion and the hunt or fighting with the lion was associated with strength courage and glory.
Many ancient kings including Alexander the Great were depicted wearing the lion skin with
the lions head a top.
2.Podarces (Priam )
Ancient king of Troy. Son of Laomedon ( Lavometon) He was originally called Podarces and
he kept himself from being killed by Heracles by giving him a gift, a golden veil
embroidered by his sister, Hesione.- ‘esione. According to L.S Lexicon ( 1845, p. 1236 ref.
Apollod.2,6,4,5 ) Priamo was redeemed by his sister Hesione from Heracles.
It appears that after this, Podarces changed his name to Priam. Oxford makes an attempt
to explain the etymology of this name, based on a word ‘priatos’, that may possibly be
related to "ransomed’. However Oxford lacks further evidence and reference to any
actual/recorded language or basic relations to other words and concludes that the actual
etymology of the name is probably not Greek, but perhaps Lydian in origin.
In search for clues to this name one quickly finds that the Macedonian nouns and verb
associated with gifts and giving gifts is’ podare’ > podarok > podari’= to shower in gifts.
‘ a gift, . A person that gives or is a giver in Modern Macedonian assumes the name
‘Podarec’, an adjective of the word /noun ‘podarok’= gift. This type of adjective is common
in Macedonian and other Slavic ex. ‘zemjodelec- farmer’, ‘drvodelec’-carpenter. Sometimes
the gifts are given to gain something in return, and can be channeled as a ransom, given
with the intention of receiving something desirable in return.
This relation is in line with the Homeric stories/ writings, namely Podarke gives a gift to
Heracles in order to save his life. However this is not an ordinary gift but a ‘gold
embroidered veil’ made by his sister Esione. ( Vesione).In Old Macedonian tradition as well
as old Gaelic and other European, a young unmarried woman always embroiders till the
time she is ready to marry and is ‘given away’to her future husband, usually by her father’.
This embroidery is made only by the hands of the young brides and takes long pain staking
time to make. In Modern Macedonian the new brides carry with them the ‘ves’, and the
‘mile’ all hand embroidered, and ‘given as a symbol and sign of love and care.
This comes from the basis Macedonian word-verb ‘milue – milos, also found in the
Homeric milos-μιλοσ.milia- μιλια love, care as well as love making.( reff. Liddell Scott).
The Homeric word ‘milia’-love dear’, is the base root for the word ‘family from the
Macedonian and South Slavic sva-milia’ ‘va milia, lit. ‘own dear’
This indicates that Vesione was ‘given as bride’ to Heracles, and is confirmed in or by other
accounts or versions of the Homeric Epics where Heracles received Vesione from her
brother Podarces (In the Ancient and present traditions of Europe, it is always the father
that gives his daughter away. However since Vesione’s father Lavomet-on- ( lit.‘ the lion
wrestler-thrower’ )was killed earlier by Heracles, the giving away was done by her brother).
However Heracles decided to give Hesione as a prize to his friend companion Telamon
instead of keeping her for himself. This would be regarded as an insult to the young bride as
well as her close family.
In other parts of the epics as well as other versions, Podarces was also known to have his
head shaven clean. With further research we find that Podarki/ Priamo was represented on
stage with shaven/bald head.( Ref. LS Greek Lexicon, 1845. P. 1236, Homeric ‘priamo’-
briam-o, πριαμοω = to shave, to shave the head).
Now in Macedonian and South Slavic the word/ verb for shaving is ‘ bria >brie > ‘briam’(.(
‘p’↔’b’ > ‘priam’) = to shave, I shave, with the infinite forms ‘brijati’ – bricit = to shave
However one can ask the obvious question: why would a man especially a king go to the
trouble of shaving his hair off.?
It is rare to find any depiction in any carvings, paintings, etc from ancient times of Europe,
of men-kings with hair shaved off. It appears that there are some other basic human values,
emotions and relations that are present here. Studding the events that appears to have taken
place we realize that it would not be acceptable (then and today) for a young man to give his
sister as a bride to a man who has killed-slew his own father.
This would be a shame to one’s dignity and respect of ones family (blood). Here we have a
very possible motif and good reason for Podarces to shave all his hair as an indication of
shame related to the actions he did.
Later on, Priam in attempt to ‘return some respect’ to his name and family, sent his men
Antenor and Anchises to Sparta to demand Hesione's return, but they were rejected and
driven away, hence the willingness of Priam later to accept the abduction of the Spartan
princess/queen Helen by his son Paris.
3. Hesione-Fεσιονε < vesione
This lady is the sister of Priam / Podarke. She embroidered a golden veil that was given to
Heracles by Podarke/ Priam. Using the basic fact that this lady was known as the one who
embroidered the famous veil, we search for associated words or relations. Using basic
Slavic/ Macedonian this name can be explained as very much related to the facts given in
the Homeric epic. By reinstating the sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’,also
known as the ‘digama’ we arrive at the word ‘Fesione’
Namely in search for related words to ‘embroider’ as related to ‘hesione↔v’esione, we come
to the Macedonian / Slavic verb ‘ vezio- vezi =‘to embroider’. From here we get ‘vesi- one’
↔ vezi-ona= lit. “ the one (she) who embroidered” This belongs to a massive root/word
concept in Macedonian/ Slavic.Also ther is the general Macedonian word ‘veš’ = clothing,
handmade, embroidered, also found in the Latin and English words such as ‘vestibule’.
4.Briseis
In Classical Mythology, Brisēís (Βρισηίς) was a Trojan widow (from Lyrnessus) who was
abducted during the Trojan War by Achilles upon the death of her three brothers and
husband, King Mynes of Lyrnessus, in the fight. After an oracle forced Agamemnon to give
up Chryseis <> chrasna ( Mac.’ beautiful), a woman he had captured, the
king ordered his heralds Talthybius and Eurybates to take Briseis from Achilles as
compensation. Achilles was offended by this seizure and, as a result, withdrew from the
fighting. He did not return to the fray until the death of Patroclus.
Very basic etymology is at view. The name’ Brisēís < Biseri < Bisera, is a most typical
Macedonian name, related to biseri,- pearls.The Macedonian and South Slav word ‘biseri’,
a - bisera -visera’( ‘b’↔’v’) is created from’ visi’> ‘vise’ – ‘to hang’,’ to dangle’, combined
with the root/word’ ra’ ( z-ra-k > ‘zrak- light ray’) lit. ‘dangling rays’>pearls. Pearls are
shiny little ‘droplets-balls that reflect the Sun rays.
5.NESTOR (NAISTAR)
This is the name of the old Trojan king, a name for "old king renowned for wise counsel,"
1588, This is the name of the aged and wise hero /king in the "Iliad.".The name relates to
the Macedonian and South Slavic ‘Nai star-Ναισταρ> Ναιστορ > Νεστορ’, lit. the oldest. In
the Homeric epics Naistor was always addressed as the oldest and the wisest, believed to be
close to 300 hundred years old. It is a natural and typical occurrence to associate wisdom
/wise with age.
6.PARIS
The prince of Troy..Paris -Πάρις; also known as Alexander, c.f. Alaksandus of Wilusa, the
son of Priam, king of Troy appears in a number of Classical legends. Probably the best7
known was his elopement with, Helen, queen of Sparta, this being one of the immediate
causes of the Trojan War. Later in the war, he fatally wounds Achilles in the heel with an
arrow, as foretold by Achilles’ mother.
His original name was Alexandro and Alaksandus. The name Pari(s) was given to him later.
Other Etymologists made attempts to relate the name Paris to a backpack (πήρα,
"backpack) by hinging on a small detail that Agelaus, the man who was originally ordered to
kill Paris as infant/baby, brought the infant Alexander from the forests of mountain Ida
home in a back pack to rear as his own. However this etymology is shallow without any
practical or conceptual relation to the name. Most of the infant children in the era of the
Trojan Wars were carried in some kind of bag or ‘back pack for easy transportation as is still
the case in many places today. It will not be logical then to call them all ‘Paris’.Also, if the
name Paris is related to ‘pera>pira - πηρα it would have been an adjective of pira –
pirodetos - πηροδετοσ.Linguistically it is difficult to get ‘Paris’ from Perodetos/Pirodetos or
from Pira-Pera. Also on the old original word ‘pira ( Greek Poetic Lexicon E.Maltby
1823)’the accent is on the letter ‘a’ and not on the letter ‘i-e’( η ).
Reviewing all the facts and relations associated with this famous name it appears that
Macedonian and Slavic provide an etymology that is logical and in line with most of the
available facts and information.
Namely this is related to the Slavic noun and verb’ par >pari> parira > pair > pair up >
‘couple. South Slav ‘pariti se’ <> ‘parise’ =coupling of two people that are a true
match to one other. In South Slavic this also has the related meaning of mating to produce
offspring or to inseminate. Therefore “se pari> pari se’ is connected to ‘par’ – a pair ‘lit.
two of a kind, like man & wife male - female
This concept also relates to two of a similar kind, when paring animals for mating.lit. a
matched entity of two. Today the fundamental meaning of this noun – verb, can be
explained as made up of the basic Macedonian particle ‘pa’’ = again, repeat, and the Slavic
root/word ‘ri’ > ree >rea = flow, come.
Further to this, to elope, most literally, merely means to run away. Elopement is often used
to refer to a marriage conducted in sudden and secretive fashion, usually involving hurried
flight away from one's place of residence. It is significant at this point to indicate that in
Shakespeare, the meaning of the word to ‘make a pair’ by matching or simply ‘pair up ‘
(pari, par ) is related to’ to mate’. The fact that this person named Paris, is best known for
his pairing with and elopement – abduction, of Helen for the basic reason of love
/attraction to her and therefore to mate and ‘pair’ up with Helen is what truly defines and
explains this ancient Pelasgian name.
Paris literally coupled with ( pair up) and ‘stole’ Helen in a sudden and secretive fashion
which action was the main cause of the Trojan Wars. This is confirmed with the Greek
translations of the Paris’s name given in the Greek Poetic Lexicon Edward Maltby, London,
1829, p.514 ‘ p.23,where the name Paris is associated with ‘the Greek
ainogamos’αινογαμοσ ’ unhappily married’ / paired up, an adulterer’ and apatelios ‘
απατελιοσ = deceitfull.
7 Omiro
There are two explanations for the meaning of this famous name, given below as ‘A’ and ‘B.
According to Alberto Salinas Price, a well known authority on the Homeric Epics from
Mexico ‘HOMER WAS NOT A PERSON: HE WAS A COLLEGE OF BARDS AND AN AGE, AND THE
LITERATURE THEY PRODUCED’.
With an in depth study on this word we find that in Modern Greek today the word Homer –
‘Omiro(s) has the meaning of taking a hostage or a hostage. However there is no acceptable
etymology of this word in the Greek language with the meaning of “hostage”. An acceptable
etymology can be found in the Macedonian and all Slavic Languages. It appears that there
were two different words at the time of the Trojan Wars. Although similar in sound the two
words are different in meaning. However not knowing the ‘Barbaric language’ of the masses
in Europe, the early Greeks could have easily mixed up the two words.
A. Omiro >Ομηρο
Etymology /explanation of the meaning ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or
hostage’
Reviewing the well known Liddell Scott( Greek –English Dictionary. 1845 p. 1022-
London) which was translated from the German Linguist Francis Passow – Leipzig, we find
that according to this author the word Omiro >Ομηρο is related to ‘ομηρευο’ – ‘omirevo’
with the original meaning of ’ to meet’, to agree’, later, ‘tally’, ’to serve as a pledge’.
Researching the Macedonian and Slavic Languages we come across the word and concept
associated with ‘ mir’ >’smiri’ > p’omiri > omiri> ομηρι = - make peace. This can be
associated with ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or hostage’. Also in the Modern
Macedonian there is the verb action ‘pomiruva’> p’omiruva’ > omiruva> omirevo
(‘ομηρευο’ )= to meet and make peace, which relates to the general concept of ‘ agreement’
The Macedonian word ‘ mir’ = peace, ‘miri> pomiri > ‘omiri ‘ -ομηρι = to make peace.
This is futher confirmed with the name of the Classical Goddess of peace ‘irini> ‘ireni- Ιρενι
(miren >pomireni>pom-ireni> ‘ireni.
In ancient times of Europe during the wars, peace was often made by the two opposite
parties or enemies meeting face to face to negotiate. Also taking hostages on one or the
other side /group (but usually both sides )of the people fighting the war or battle, created
the conditions for these meetings. This is logical and did happen during the Trojan wars
when important hostages were taken which in turn initiated negotiations and promoted
peace.
B. Ομιρο
Etymology / explanation of the other meaning of the word’ Homer ‘.
Using Macedonian and Slavic as guide we can easily find out the true meaning of the
writer – author of these famous epics as follows:
In Macedonian ‘um < oum =" the"> ‘myru’ = the world
Combining these two simple words we get :
um > oum + myrou > oummiro →Oumiro > Ομιρο ’ the mind of the world (masses)’.
The word ‘um – oum also relates to , thought’, knowledge’ ‘to know ‘.Also there is the
Macedonian expression ‘na oum’ relating to ‘ remember’ also ‘to be thoughtful.
Today in the Balkans, in Macedonia there are the epic singers ‘the Guslars ‘that sing songs
and / or tell the stories in very similar fashion as the Homeric Epics. These singers can tell
these long stories that are composed of thousands of words all by heart/ memory.
It is also a fact today that there have never been found any documents and /or writings that
show the name of Homer. It appears that Homer was not a person or a writer but simply the
masses – people and the ‘creations of the people’ or simply what was then known as ‘folk
singing / story telling’ or a typical ‘folk songs-tales’ -later recorded. Today all songs, poems
and stories that are created and told by the common people, almost never have a single
author associated with them, simply because they were created and embellished by the
common people.

Yetos
05-06-12, 14:58
how do you explain that the venetian and etruscan texts can be translated using slavic languages? again not my claims.

1) so you say that Etruscans were IE?

2) in every language and culture there are some 'wise' you claim what ever,

Yetos
05-06-12, 15:16
The Barbaric-Pelasgian names of the heroes in the Trojan Wars Period
explained with the use of Macedonian and Slavic Languages
Author : Odyssey Belchevsky May 2007, ©® (10 pages)
Prologue
The Trojan Wars took place approx. 1,100- 1250 BC. The events of these wars have been
sung in the form of the Homeric Epics, which became part of the fundamental Classic
literature of Western Civilization and culture. Today it is not clearly known as to what was
the original Language that these poems / epics were sung in. It appears that for a very long
time these epics were carried on from generation to generation as a verbal tradition.
However it is a fact that this type of epic singing still exists today with the Slavic Peoples in
the Balkans.
According to Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price, on the subject of the Language of Homer,
..“It is no novelty that certain words in both the Iliad and the Odyssey have a hazy
meaning and that they are derived from older, now non-existent words of unknown
meaning; these words, while they do not seriously hinder the general understanding of
this or that particular line, are, nevertheless, a source of puzzlement; however, on a more
cautious view of the matter, there are many place-names whose meaning is utterly
unknown, for, while they may have some sort of meaning in Greek, it must be presumed
that these names are derived from far older pre-Greek language-forms (perhaps with
slight variants in orthography) whose original meaning can be nothing more than an
educated guess”……
Prof. Alberto Salinas –Price,…..… In sum “the subject-matter of the Homeric epics—in
particular, the subject matter and its corresponding details—must have been developed in
a non-Mycenaean Linear B language (in a distant periphery of a Hellenic scenario), and, if
the line of inquiry is in the right direction, one might ponder whether the language was
internal to the subject-matter (that is, "Trojan"), or independent of it. Thus, "Homer",
rather than the "author" of the epics, might better be thought of as their "transcriber",
2
from a hitherto unknown language into a sophisticated (if not exquisite) Ionian language
of the day.
“It is extremely laborious (if not altogether dangerous) to attempt an etymology of this or
that Homeric geonym (ethnicon or toponym) from the Mycenaean Linear B, simply on two
counts: first, the paucity of Linear B vocabulary, and, second, a doubt whether the great
array of squiggles and glyphs which represent a Linear B language have been correctly
identified phonemically... for, on this wise, there seems to be disagreement among
scholars. By contrast with these difficulties is the ease (and internal coherence) with which
etymologies of Homeric geonyms may be adduced with a basis in a Slavic
vocabulary.”…….
The Names of the Trojan – Homeric heroes
In the distant past when the Trojan Wars Epics ( Homeric Epics) were sung/told in a folk
song style fashion, the heroes were given second /additional names that fitted their
attributes, deeds, and achievements during their lives. This is common occurrence in many
cultures and is found in many other famous names in history like the English names of the
Medieval Kings and heroes such as King Richard ‘the Lion heart ‘, a name given by the
people to truly describe and confirm his bravery and courage. An other example is the
classical name Plato, properly "broad-shouldered" (from platys "broad ;”). His original
name was Aristocleo-s.
After a careful analysis of the Homeric names, it becomes quite clear that the names of
these heroes of the Trojan Wars Period described in the Homeric Epics, were of ‘Barbarian‘
origin not related to the Greeks or Greek language. Today, these names can be identified
with common words in, and explained with the help of the Modern Slavic Languages.
3
1.Laomedon,
He was the father of Podarces/ Priam, King of Troy, who was killed by Heracles. Analysing
this name and reinstating the missing sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’ also
known as the ‘digamma’, we arrive at the word ‘laFomedon’ > ‘lavo-met-on’ ‘d’↔’t’
( lit.‘ he the lion wrestler-thrower’) or. ‘the lion thrower he is’ Macedonian lav > lavo =
lion ; Macedonian ‘met > metni = to throw; Macedonian ‘ on’ = he, It is a known fact that
lions lived in the lower part of the Balkan Peninsula and Asia minor in ancient times. The
lion and the hunt or fighting with the lion was associated with strength courage and glory.
Many ancient kings including Alexander the Great were depicted wearing the lion skin with
the lions head a top.
2.Podarces (Priam )
Ancient king of Troy. Son of Laomedon ( Lavometon) He was originally called Podarces and
he kept himself from being killed by Heracles by giving him a gift, a golden veil
embroidered by his sister, Hesione.- ‘esione. According to L.S Lexicon ( 1845, p. 1236 ref.
Apollod.2,6,4,5 ) Priamo was redeemed by his sister Hesione from Heracles.
It appears that after this, Podarces changed his name to Priam. Oxford makes an attempt
to explain the etymology of this name, based on a word ‘priatos’, that may possibly be
related to "ransomed’. However Oxford lacks further evidence and reference to any
actual/recorded language or basic relations to other words and concludes that the actual
etymology of the name is probably not Greek, but perhaps Lydian in origin.
In search for clues to this name one quickly finds that the Macedonian nouns and verb
associated with gifts and giving gifts is’ podare’ > podarok > podari’= to shower in gifts.
‘ a gift, . A person that gives or is a giver in Modern Macedonian assumes the name
‘Podarec’, an adjective of the word /noun ‘podarok’= gift. This type of adjective is common
in Macedonian and other Slavic ex. ‘zemjodelec- farmer’, ‘drvodelec’-carpenter. Sometimes
4
the gifts are given to gain something in return, and can be channeled as a ransom, given
with the intention of receiving something desirable in return.
This relation is in line with the Homeric stories/ writings, namely Podarke gives a gift to
Heracles in order to save his life. However this is not an ordinary gift but a ‘gold
embroidered veil’ made by his sister Esione. ( Vesione).In Old Macedonian tradition as well
as old Gaelic and other European, a young unmarried woman always embroiders till the
time she is ready to marry and is ‘given away’to her future husband, usually by her father’.
This embroidery is made only by the hands of the young brides and takes long pain staking
time to make. In Modern Macedonian the new brides carry with them the ‘ves’, and the
‘mile’ all hand embroidered, and ‘given as a symbol and sign of love and care.
This comes from the basis Macedonian word-verb ‘milue – milos, also found in the
Homeric milos-μιλοσ.milia- μιλια love, care as well as love making.( reff. Liddell Scott).
The Homeric word ‘milia’-love dear’, is the base root for the word ‘family from the
Macedonian and South Slavic sva-milia’ ‘va milia, lit. ‘own dear’
This indicates that Vesione was ‘given as bride’ to Heracles, and is confirmed in or by other
accounts or versions of the Homeric Epics where Heracles received Vesione from her
brother Podarces (In the Ancient and present traditions of Europe, it is always the father
that gives his daughter away. However since Vesione’s father Lavomet-on- ( lit.‘ the lion
wrestler-thrower’ )was killed earlier by Heracles, the giving away was done by her brother).
However Heracles decided to give Hesione as a prize to his friend companion Telamon
instead of keeping her for himself. This would be regarded as an insult to the young bride as
well as her close family.
In other parts of the epics as well as other versions, Podarces was also known to have his
head shaven clean. With further research we find that Podarki/ Priamo was represented on
stage with shaven/bald head.( Ref. LS Greek Lexicon, 1845. P. 1236, Homeric ‘priamo’-
briam-o, πριαμοω = to shave, to shave the head).
5
Now in Macedonian and South Slavic the word/ verb for shaving is ‘ bria >brie > ‘briam’(.(
‘p’↔’b’ > ‘priam’) = to shave, I shave, with the infinite forms ‘brijati’ – bricit = to shave
However one can ask the obvious question: why would a man especially a king go to the
trouble of shaving his hair off.?
It is rare to find any depiction in any carvings, paintings, etc from ancient times of Europe,
of men-kings with hair shaved off. It appears that there are some other basic human values,
emotions and relations that are present here. Studding the events that appears to have taken
place we realize that it would not be acceptable (then and today) for a young man to give his
sister as a bride to a man who has killed-slew his own father.
This would be a shame to one’s dignity and respect of ones family (blood). Here we have a
very possible motif and good reason for Podarces to shave all his hair as an indication of
shame related to the actions he did.
Later on, Priam in attempt to ‘return some respect’ to his name and family, sent his men
Antenor and Anchises to Sparta to demand Hesione's return, but they were rejected and
driven away, hence the willingness of Priam later to accept the abduction of the Spartan
princess/queen Helen by his son Paris.
3. Hesione-Fεσιονε < vesione
This lady is the sister of Priam / Podarke. She embroidered a golden veil that was given to
Heracles by Podarke/ Priam. Using the basic fact that this lady was known as the one who
embroidered the famous veil, we search for associated words or relations. Using basic
Slavic/ Macedonian this name can be explained as very much related to the facts given in
the Homeric epic. By reinstating the sound / letter ‘V’ which in ancient times was ‘’F’,also
known as the ‘digama’ we arrive at the word ‘Fesione’
Namely in search for related words to ‘embroider’ as related to ‘hesione↔v’esione, we come
to the Macedonian / Slavic verb ‘ vezio- vezi =‘to embroider’. From here we get ‘vesi- one’
6
↔ vezi-ona= lit. “ the one (she) who embroidered” This belongs to a massive root/word
concept in Macedonian/ Slavic.Also ther is the general Macedonian word ‘veš’ = clothing,
handmade, embroidered, also found in the Latin and English words such as ‘vestibule’.
4.Briseis
In Classical Mythology, Brisēís (Βρισηίς) was a Trojan widow (from Lyrnessus) who was
abducted during the Trojan War by Achilles upon the death of her three brothers and
husband, King Mynes of Lyrnessus, in the fight. After an oracle forced Agamemnon to give
up Chryseis <> chrasna ( Mac.’ beautiful), a woman he had captured, the
king ordered his heralds Talthybius and Eurybates to take Briseis from Achilles as
compensation. Achilles was offended by this seizure and, as a result, withdrew from the
fighting. He did not return to the fray until the death of Patroclus.
Very basic etymology is at view. The name’ Brisēís < Biseri < Bisera, is a most typical
Macedonian name, related to biseri,- pearls.The Macedonian and South Slav word ‘biseri’,
a - bisera -visera’( ‘b’↔’v’) is created from’ visi’> ‘vise’ – ‘to hang’,’ to dangle’, combined
with the root/word’ ra’ ( z-ra-k > ‘zrak- light ray’) lit. ‘dangling rays’>pearls. Pearls are
shiny little ‘droplets-balls that reflect the Sun rays.
5.NESTOR (NAISTAR)
This is the name of the old Trojan king, a name for "old king renowned for wise counsel,"
1588, This is the name of the aged and wise hero /king in the "Iliad.".The name relates to
the Macedonian and South Slavic ‘Nai star-Ναισταρ> Ναιστορ > Νεστορ’, lit. the oldest. In
the Homeric epics Naistor was always addressed as the oldest and the wisest, believed to be
close to 300 hundred years old. It is a natural and typical occurrence to associate wisdom
/wise with age.
6.PARIS
The prince of Troy..Paris -Πάρις; also known as Alexander, c.f. Alaksandus of Wilusa, the
son of Priam, king of Troy appears in a number of Classical legends. Probably the best7
known was his elopement with, Helen, queen of Sparta, this being one of the immediate
causes of the Trojan War. Later in the war, he fatally wounds Achilles in the heel with an
arrow, as foretold by Achilles’ mother.
His original name was Alexandro and Alaksandus. The name Pari(s) was given to him later.
Other Etymologists made attempts to relate the name Paris to a backpack (πήρα,
"backpack) by hinging on a small detail that Agelaus, the man who was originally ordered to
kill Paris as infant/baby, brought the infant Alexander from the forests of mountain Ida
home in a back pack to rear as his own. However this etymology is shallow without any
practical or conceptual relation to the name. Most of the infant children in the era of the
Trojan Wars were carried in some kind of bag or ‘back pack for easy transportation as is still
the case in many places today. It will not be logical then to call them all ‘Paris’.Also, if the
name Paris is related to ‘pera>pira - πηρα it would have been an adjective of pira –
pirodetos - πηροδετοσ.Linguistically it is difficult to get ‘Paris’ from Perodetos/Pirodetos or
from Pira-Pera. Also on the old original word ‘pira ( Greek Poetic Lexicon E.Maltby
1823)’the accent is on the letter ‘a’ and not on the letter ‘i-e’( η ).
Reviewing all the facts and relations associated with this famous name it appears that
Macedonian and Slavic provide an etymology that is logical and in line with most of the
available facts and information.
Namely this is related to the Slavic noun and verb’ par >pari> parira > pair > pair up >
‘couple. South Slav ‘pariti se’ <> ‘parise’ =coupling of two people that are a true
match to one other. In South Slavic this also has the related meaning of mating to produce
offspring or to inseminate. Therefore “se pari> pari se’ is connected to ‘par’ – a pair ‘lit.
two of a kind, like man & wife male - female
This concept also relates to two of a similar kind, when paring animals for mating.lit. a
matched entity of two. Today the fundamental meaning of this noun – verb, can be
explained as made up of the basic Macedonian particle ‘pa’’ = again, repeat, and the Slavic
root/word ‘ri’ > ree >rea = flow, come.
8
Further to this, to elope, most literally, merely means to run away. Elopement is often used
to refer to a marriage conducted in sudden and secretive fashion, usually involving hurried
flight away from one's place of residence. It is significant at this point to indicate that in
Shakespeare, the meaning of the word to ‘make a pair’ by matching or simply ‘pair up ‘
(pari, par ) is related to’ to mate’. The fact that this person named Paris, is best known for
his pairing with and elopement – abduction, of Helen for the basic reason of love
/attraction to her and therefore to mate and ‘pair’ up with Helen is what truly defines and
explains this ancient Pelasgian name.
Paris literally coupled with ( pair up) and ‘stole’ Helen in a sudden and secretive fashion
which action was the main cause of the Trojan Wars. This is confirmed with the Greek
translations of the Paris’s name given in the Greek Poetic Lexicon Edward Maltby, London,
1829, p.514 ‘ p.23,where the name Paris is associated with ‘the Greek
ainogamos’αινογαμοσ ’ unhappily married’ / paired up, an adulterer’ and apatelios ‘
απατελιοσ = deceitfull.
7 Omiro
There are two explanations for the meaning of this famous name, given below as ‘A’ and ‘B.
According to Alberto Salinas Price, a well known authority on the Homeric Epics from
Mexico ‘HOMER WAS NOT A PERSON: HE WAS A COLLEGE OF BARDS AND AN AGE, AND THE
LITERATURE THEY PRODUCED’.
With an in depth study on this word we find that in Modern Greek today the word Homer –
‘Omiro(s) has the meaning of taking a hostage or a hostage. However there is no acceptable
etymology of this word in the Greek language with the meaning of “hostage”. An acceptable
etymology can be found in the Macedonian and all Slavic Languages. It appears that there
were two different words at the time of the Trojan Wars. Although similar in sound the two
words are different in meaning. However not knowing the ‘Barbaric language’ of the masses
in Europe, the early Greeks could have easily mixed up the two words.
9
A. Omiro >Ομηρο
Etymology /explanation of the meaning ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or
hostage’
Reviewing the well known Liddell Scott( Greek –English Dictionary. 1845 p. 1022-
London) which was translated from the German Linguist Francis Passow – Leipzig, we find
that according to this author the word Omiro >Ομηρο is related to ‘ομηρευο’ – ‘omirevo’
with the original meaning of ’ to meet’, to agree’, later, ‘tally’, ’to serve as a pledge’.
Researching the Macedonian and Slavic Languages we come across the word and concept
associated with ‘ mir’ >’smiri’ > p’omiri > omiri> ομηρι = - make peace. This can be
associated with ‘meeting to agree’ and ‘taking pledge or hostage’. Also in the Modern
Macedonian there is the verb action ‘pomiruva’> p’omiruva’ > omiruva> omirevo
(‘ομηρευο’ )= to meet and make peace, which relates to the general concept of ‘ agreement’
The Macedonian word ‘ mir’ = peace, ‘miri> pomiri > ‘omiri ‘ -ομηρι = to make peace.
This is futher confirmed with the name of the Classical Goddess of peace ‘irini> ‘ireni- Ιρενι
(miren >pomireni>pom-ireni> ‘ireni.
In ancient times of Europe during the wars, peace was often made by the two opposite
parties or enemies meeting face to face to negotiate. Also taking hostages on one or the
other side /group (but usually both sides )of the people fighting the war or battle, created
the conditions for these meetings. This is logical and did happen during the Trojan wars
when important hostages were taken which in turn initiated negotiations and promoted
peace.
10
B. Ομιρο
Etymology / explanation of the other meaning of the word’ Homer ‘.
Using Macedonian and Slavic as guide we can easily find out the true meaning of the
writer – author of these famous epics as follows:
In Macedonian ‘um < oum =" the"> ‘myru’ = the world
Combining these two simple words we get :
um > oum + myrou > oummiro →Oumiro > Ομιρο ’ the mind of the world (masses)’.
The word ‘um – oum also relates to , thought’, knowledge’ ‘to know ‘.Also there is the
Macedonian expression ‘na oum’ relating to ‘ remember’ also ‘to be thoughtful.
Today in the Balkans, in Macedonia there are the epic singers ‘the Guslars ‘that sing songs
and / or tell the stories in very similar fashion as the Homeric Epics. These singers can tell
these long stories that are composed of thousands of words all by heart/ memory.
It is also a fact today that there have never been found any documents and /or writings that
show the name of Homer. It appears that Homer was not a person or a writer but simply the
masses – people and the ‘creations of the people’ or simply what was then known as ‘folk
singing / story telling’ or a typical ‘folk songs-tales’ -later recorded. Today all songs, poems
and stories that are created and told by the common people, almost never have a single
author associated with them, simply because they were created and embellished by the
common people.

you read to much wrong guys

ΛΑΟΜΕΔΩΝ ΛΑΟ + ΜΕΔΩΝ

if exist the F then grim laws show many but according the sounds how sure that it would be V in Homeric?
cause it fits your Slavic 'fantasies'
what about the city Laomedeia?
what about Medeia the queen and Medes its people what about the Greek names Laios ΛΑΙΟΣ F goes I ?

I am tired about these

go read Threads about Makedonia, Slavic Makedonia Thracians Albania Illyria Greece in this forum and don't repeat your Shelf

I wonder why I have to repeat the same answers in every Thread

@Dublin
IE language is not unique and a priviledge of someone,
tricks with IE language I can play also
want some examples

ok Serbian word for room = sobe
modern Greek word for heater (the heater in the room where we burn oil or woods) is Soba
so Greek are Slavs cause soba is after Serbian Sobe
you see I prove a theory
but the word Soba in Greek is after Latin Speakers Aromani Vlachs and not from Serbs
it is after chaux which means warm - hot
so what we have here?
wow Both Greeks and Serbs are Francais?

such examples you are posting

PLZ


if you search more especially in the grammar then you understand that Homeric is more Aryan than Greek and nothing to do with Slavic

common or similarities of Homer with IE languages is obvious,
in fact if you search better Hommer then you see that connection with Sanshqrit and Aryan and Armenian is bigger than with Slavic your post

maybe your next post is that Nikita Khrushchev is apogonus of Χρυσις (Khruseis) or son son of Kroisos
4 known Historical Χρυσηις in ancient Greek
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Χρυσηίς_(αποσαφήνιση)

Russian name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev

so you are telling me that Troyan Priest was from Russia? a Slavic one?

well at least in Greek the name Χρυσηις is possible connected with 2 meanings
1) gold, in female form of an epithet is χρυση but in return to name takes -is
so χρυσηις means golden girl, precious girl, shining girl etx

2) blonde since gold and blonde have same colour

the name is much in use in modern Greek as also the family name χρυσαφης (sour name means golden)
I guess for you they are all Slavs after Khrutsev Χρυ(τ)σε-φ

I am certain that the opposite Slavic to be an artificial language based upon older ones is not correct right?


Homer ΟΜΗΡΟΣ
ΟΜΗΡΟΣ = ΟΜΟΥ + ΟΡΩ
it means ΟΜΟΥ ΟΜΗ ΟΜΟΙ means together, among them
ομηγυρις = roaming party - friends
ομορος = the one who is beside
ομου = together

Ορω = Ι see
Past forms
Aorist = εορων
παρατατικος εορακα
Υπερσυντελικος = εορακειν

now when in Greek we bind words we change the vowel that are short to long ones so ε is droped to η
so the one who show together with other is ομου + εορων = ομ + εορων = ομ +ηρων = ομηρ-ος

ομηρος in Greek means Hostage check your Lexicon

it means he had seen the acts with others
an eye witness



PS I hope in your next post don't claim that Dusan was son of Alexander

dublin
05-06-12, 16:21
yetos

Odyssey Belchevsky didn' pick words from modern Greek. He picked words from Homeric greek. lots of them have no real root except in slavic languages. again you are arguing with the wrong guy, as i wasn't the one to write the above text.

Yetos
05-06-12, 16:22
@ Dublin

Slavic is IE language

IE language is not Slavic

Taranis
05-06-12, 17:00
I do not have much time, but I'd like to say this: the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is completely nonsensical. If you look at the situation on the Balkans in Antiquity (place names, personal names, other geographic features), there is zero evidence for Slavic languages. Anybody who does not believe my statement is free to read what ancient sources have to say on the issue. The Slavs didn't show up there until the Migration Period. Neither should they: because indeed, it also makes no sense because the Slavs spoke a common language until the Migration Period: this is attested by Iranic and East Germanic loanwords into Proto-Slavic.

dublin
05-06-12, 17:54
What is now commonly known as a traditional Irish music is not Irish in origin and is not known when and from where it arrived to Ireland. The real traditional Irish music is an
unaccompanied vocals called sean nós (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean-n%C3%B3s_song) ("in the old style") and are considered the ultimate expression of traditional singing. This is usually performed solo (very occasionally as a duet). Sean-nós singing is highly ornamented and the voice is placed towards the top of the range. A true sean-nós singer will vary the melody of every verse, but not to the point of interfering with the words, which are considered to have as much importance as the melody. To the first-time listener, accustomed to pop and classical singers, sean-nós often sounds more "Arabic" or "Indian" than "Western".
Non-sean-nós traditional singing, even when accompaniment is used, uses patterns of ornamentation and melodic freedom derived from sean-nós singing, and, generally, a similar voice placement.

What is commonly considered to be Irish music has a lot of similarities with the traditional Nordic music. Interestingly enough the one thing that is common to both the Scandinavian and the Irish folk music is that they are all based on Slavic folk music, primarily polka and Serbian 1/2 and 4/4 rhythms which are for instance also found in Greek rebetiko as serviko and hasapiko.

How is it possible that Slavic traditional music becomes traditional Nordic, Irish and Greek music? I would put forward a hypothesis that this is because there must have been a considerable Slavic population in these territories at the time when this music was standardized, and that their music became the folk music of Nordic countries, Ireland and Greece. For Ireland this Slavic musical influence probably came from the Vikings, who were themselves culturally influenced by the Wendish (Serbian) people living in Scandinavian countries before they were converted to Danes, Norwegians, Fins, Balts, Swedes…


The hasapiko is based on a rhythmic pattern of 4/4, and the way it is danced - usually by two, three or even four people - is a projection of the demotic manner, but also bearing certain European influences. Demotic is Slavic.

The servikos, whose name reveals its origin, is a quick tempo of little interest, and this only from the aspect of instrumental and dancing execution. It is rarely performed, its vainglorious content satisfying the dancer's footwork alone.
You can see here that the Greek author didn’t like the fact that two main types of greek traditional music are Slavic (Serbian) in origin.


The fast pace of the Karelian music played by Värttinä, is one type of Karelian Folk Music. A wide range of styles developed in Karelia, and the tempos vary quite a bit, for example: Ljuuli, Ljuuli, an Eastern Karelian lullabye, to the immortal Säkkijärven Polkka and beyond. Today's Karelian music has a lot of Celtic/Slavic/Bulgarian overtones and is not necessarily the type sung and played before the war.


Danish folk music has long been dominated by a fiddle and accordion duo, much like its northern neighbours in Scandinavia. An important difference, however, is that Danish fiddlers almost always play in groups, and so there is no tradition of virtuoso fiddle players capable of solo performance; Danish bands also tend to feature the guitar more prominently than the other Nordic countries, especially in recent years.

Fiddle and accordion duos play generally rhythmic dance music, local versions of the Nordic folk dance music. The oldest variety is called pols, and it is now mostly found on Fanø and includes even smaller variety likes sønderhoning from Sønderho. Sønderho has produced a family of widely-respected musicians in Søren Lassen Brinch and his descendents. Another dance from Fanø is called fanik, while Danish dance music included its own versions of polka, waltz, schottisch, trekanter, firtur, tretur and rheinlænder, displaying its multicultural influences from Germany, Poland, Austria, Bohemia, Sweden, England and Norway.



Traditional Nordic dance music is a type of traditional music or folk music that once was common in the mainland part of the Nordic countries — Scandinavia plus Finland. The most common dance rhythm is the polska. It is in 3/4 (three beats to the bar). In the most common polskas, the third beat is accentuated as well as the first. There are many local versions of the polska rhythm, and generally local variations of the accompanying dance correspond to these differences, though many of these local dances have disappeared. The schottische, also known as reinlender, polka and waltz are other common dance rhythms. In addition there are many other more uncommon dance rhythms (e.g. the anglais), despite a small number of surviving tunes.

The most typical instrument is the fiddle. In most cases normal violins are used, but there are exceptions such as the hardingfele, used in parts of Norway, which has a set of sympathetic strings in addition to the normal four strings. Another unique instrument, the nyckelharpa (keyed fiddle), probably once existed in a large part of Europe, but survived until modern times only in Sweden. Other instruments that were used traditionally were simple clarinets, and later accordions.



The music of Sweden shares the tradition of Nordic folk dance music with its neighboring countries in northern Europe, including polka, schottische, waltz, polska and mazurka. The accordion, clarinet, fiddle and nyckelharpa are among the most common Swedish folk instruments.



In A History of Irish Music (1905), W. H. Grattan Flood wrote that, in Gaelic Ireland, there were at least ten instruments in general use. These were the cruit (a small harp) and clairseach (a bigger harp with typically 30 strings), the timpan (a small string instrument played with a bow or plectrum), the feadan (a fife), the buinne (an oboe or flute), the guthbuinne (a bassoon-type horn), the bennbuabhal and corn (hornpipes), the cuislenna (bagpipes - see Great Irish Warpipes), the stoc and sturgan (clarions or trumpets), and the cnamha (castanets).[2] There is also evidence of the fiddle being used in the 8th century.[2]

Irish traditional music was largely meant (to the best of our current knowledge) for dancing at celebrations for weddings, saint's days or other observances. Tunes are most usually divided into two eight-bar strains which are each played as many times as the performers feel is appropriate; Irish dance music is isometric. (16 measures are known as a "step", with one 8 bar strain for a "right foot" and the second for the "left foot" of the step. Tunes that are not so evenly divided are called "crooked".) This makes for an eminently danceable music, and Irish dance has been widely exported abroad.

Traditional dances and tunes include reels (4/4), hornpipes (4/4 with swung eighth notes), and jigs (double and single jigs are in 6/8 time), as well as imported waltzes, mazurkas, polkas, and highlands or barndances (a sort of Irish version of the Scottish strathspey). Jigs come in various other forms for dancing — the slip jig and hop jig are commonly written in 9/8 time, the slide in 12/8. (The dance the hop jig is no longer performed under the auspices of An Coimisiun.) The forms of jig danced in hardshoe are known as double or treble jigs (for the doubles/trebles performed with the tip of the hardshoe), and the jigs danced in ghillies/pomps/slippers are known as light jigs.

Polkas are a type of 2/4 tune mostly found in the Sliabh Luachra area, at the border of Cork and Kerry, in the south of Ireland. Another distinctive Munster rhythm is the Slide, like a fast single jig in 12/8 time. The main differences between these types of tunes are in the time signature, tempo, and rhythmic emphasis. It should be noted that, as an aural music form, Irish traditional music is rather artificially confined by time signatures, which are not really capable of conveying the particular emphasis for each type of tune. An easy demonstration of this is any attempt to notate a slow air on the musical stave. Similarly, attempts by classically trained musicians to play traditional music by reading the common transcriptions are almost unrecognizable - the transcriptions exist only as a kind of shorthand.

dublin
05-06-12, 18:00
taranis


The Slavs didn't show up there until the Migration Period.

lots of historians would not agree with you and mr florin curta is one of them. he actually got a prestigious aword for a book thet claims that migration never happen:


The Making of the Slavs [1] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn1), written by prof. dr. Florin Curta, for which he received Herbert Baxter Adams Prize (http://www.historians.org/prizes/AWARDED/AdamsWinner.htm) of the American Historical Association for the year 2002. This award is offered for a distinguished first book by a young scholar in the field of European history.

so if they didn't migrate and were in the balkans all along then your statement that


the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is completely nonsensical.

could be questioned and should be rephrased to

the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is possible but not certain...

Taranis
05-06-12, 18:17
taranis

lots of historians would not agree with you and mr florin curta is one of them. he actually got a prestigious aword for a book thet claims that migration never happen:

so if they didn't migrate and were in the balkans all along then your statement that

could be questioned and should be rephrased to

the idea that the Homeric Epic was somehow written in a "Slavic" context is possible but not certain...

Dublin,

I'd suggest you to take a look into what ancient geographers have to say about the Balkans. Read into the geographies of Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny the Elder, Claudius Ptolemaios, the Antonine Itinerary, or the Peutinger Table. All of these authors/sources, to varying degrees of detail, have covered the Balkans region in Antiquity. Nowhere in these sources can you find evidence for Slavic place names or ethnic names on the Balkans. To claim otherwise requires utter ignorance of the available data.

sparkey
05-06-12, 18:37
Dublin, you're posting faster than most here can respond to reasonably... I could go in depth about Celtic and Slavic origins and genetics, but let me instead just touch on a couple of things that you brought up.


A number of genetic studies have been made recently in order to determine the structure of ancient European populations. Joseph Skulj concluded that »/a/bsence of HG16 /a genetic marker/ in the male population of the Pannonian plain and in Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and the Balkan populations /…/ disproves the theory that the ‘southern’ Slavs migrated to the present locations 1500 years ago, from the areas beyond the Carpathian Mountains. Had they done so, they would have brought with them HG16, which is frequent and widely distributed genetic marker north and northeast of the Carpathian Mountains – in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.«[5] (http://www.veneti.info/prispevki/categories/polemics?catid=80:reviews&id=196:making-of-the-slavs#_edn5) Prof. Curta\'s position towards such studies is significantly absent from his book.

Again with weird terminology, what is "HG16"? R1a? R1a is something like 35% in Slovenia, 30% in Croatia, 15% in Serbia... not minimal percentages. N1c? There's no indication that N1c was common among Slavs 1500 years ago. Q? Same thing. Whatever the point, I think it's clear that the Balkans do have a reasonably large Medieval Slavic input, judging by what we know from genetics at this point. The fact that I2a-Din is apparently a recent arrival, apparently introduced from the region around Southern Poland, only underscores this point.

It's also worth noting that the "Slavic" markers are all incredibly uncommon in populations that traditionally spoke languages in the Celtic family. There's effectively no I2a-Din in them, and the rare R1a varieties tend to be ones like L664 and others that aren't really on the Slavic branches.


Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

Are you saying that Celtic and Gaelic cultures are distinguishable by their robustness? What an odd proposal. What about the counterexamples of Mann and Scotland losing a greater percentage of their language than non-Gaelic Wales? If you argue that Wales is actually Gaelic, you have to contend with the fact that Welsh seems to have this odd non-Gaelic influence, perhaps a superstratum introduced by none other than the supposedly non-robust Celts! (Or some sort of close relationship--I admit that the nature of the P/Q Celtic and continental/insular Celtic dichotamies are still unclear.) I could also narrow "Wales" down to "Gwynedd" to strengthen my argument. You'll rightly note that that's not fair--Gwynedd is geographically isolated--but see, that's the whole point. Geographic isolation has caused persistence of Gaelic language and culture, not a unique cultural robustness.

dublin
05-06-12, 18:46
taranis

I believe that you are convinced that what you are saying is true. I personally have no such strong views on things. I only strongly believe that in history nothing is certain and every document is potential falsificat or propaganda material and needs to be used in conjunction with linguistic, archeological, ethnographic and nowadays genetic data.

I have read and am still reading the greek and roman historical documents when I want to find referenced that other people are quoting. I believe that professor Curta has probably spent years studying the same documents that you are recommending and has come to the conclusion that the migration never happened and that slavs as people were always in the Balkans but were only defined as Slavs when they were defined as such by the Greeks and Romans. as i said before in one of my posts, Slavs didn't call themselves Slavs until very recently. Professor Curta got a prestigious award for the book in which he explained how he had arrived to this conclusion. I personally, from what I know so far, agree with professor Curta.

Taranis
05-06-12, 18:52
One of my favorite statements from the book is this:
Ireland was invaded and ruled by Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons for 1000 years, and they all tried to suppress the Gaelic language and culture, and still the people have preserved their Gaelic language and customs. At the same time in central and western Europe, where Celts were supposed to have originated and were the strongest, there is absolutely no Gaelic language or culture left. How is it possible? Were the oppressors in central and western Europe so much more efficient then the ones that ruled “celts” in Ireland? Or maybe the Gaelic and Celtic language and culture are not the same.

Dublin, you seem to not understand what the term "Celt" and "Celtic" mean.

First off, it has more than one meaning. The two most important ones are:

1) the people whom the Greeks designated as "Keltoi" or "Galatoi" and the Romans designated as "Celtae" or "Galli", which more or less corresponds to the ancient people we today call "Gauls", as well as their eastern cousins (notably the Galatians in Anatolia).

2) by the linguistic definition, a speaker of a Celtic language. Note that this is a modern convention. The inhabitants of ancient Ireland and Britain were never refered to by the Romans as "Celts", yet they obviously spoke Celtic languages that were ancestral to modern Irish and Welsh. For the greater part of their later history, they also didn't refer to themselves as "Celts", this is a modern convention.

What you are also ignoring is language evolution. Modern Irish has had 2000 years of additional evolution. The Irish of 2000 years ago would have been much more similar to Gaulish and Celtiberian. Ancient Brythonic and Gaulish were probably even more similar. The oldest testimony of the Irish language, the Ogam inscriptions from the 4th century AD, show that ancient Irish was indeed very similar to Gaulish, and that the typical "Insular Celtic" features only arose later. Ogam Irish is very different from the Old Irish that was spoken only a few centuries later in Ireland.

dublin
05-06-12, 19:02
sparkey



It's also worth noting that the "Slavic" markers are all incredibly uncommon in populations that traditionally spoke languages in the Celtic family. There's effectively no I2a-Din in them, and the rare R1a varieties tend to be ones like L664 and others that aren't really on the Slavic branches.

as i said before and ad Bob Quin originally claimed, Gaels are not Celts and Gaelic languages are not Celtic, they are pre Celtic. So if you mean Gaelic lands then yes the Slavic genes are uncommon in Gaelic countries. But they are present in small amounts.


Are you saying that Celtic and Gaelic cultures are distinguishable by their robustness?

the quote is from bob quin' book. He was wandering if Gaelic languages were celtic languages and Gaelic languages survived dispite 1000 years of cultural colonisation and suppression, why didn'g Gaelic languages survive in central and western europe. he concluded that if Celts even existed the reason Gaelic didn't survive in the mainland europe is because celts didn't speak s Gaelic language. Which language they did speak he didn't go into as his interest is Gaelic and not Celtic. But he states this many times that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and did not come to british isles from mainland europe but from Spain and north and west Africa.

and i am sorry for posting this much. i will make a break for couple of days to give you a chance to catch up.

taranis


inhabitants of ancient Ireland and Britain were never refered to by the Romans as "Celts", yet they obviously spoke Celtic languages that were ancestral to modern Irish and Welsh

????

they were nor refered to as celts by all knowing romans and greeks but somehow they speek celtic language? how can this be? and again we come to the question: "what is a celtic language? and how did we come to the definition or the celtic language"



What you are also ignoring is language evolution. Modern Irish has had 2000 years of additional evolution. The Irish of 2000 years ago would have been much more similar to Gaulish and Celtiberian.

it is actually the oposite. irish language is over 5000 years old and the celtic elements are relative newcommers.


i really don't want to go into this here this is a thread on veneti and wendi, but we can continue this discusion here or on another thread if you want.

sparkey
05-06-12, 19:19
as i said before and ad Bob Quin originally claimed, Gaels are not Celts and Gaelic languages are not Celtic, they are pre Celtic.

Sure, we can say that Gaelic languages are only related to Celtic languages, in the same way that we can say that Italic languages are, and Lusitanian seems to have been. That's just fudging convention though, and putting Brythonic languages in an uncertain position, as they share characteristics of both your "Gaelic" and "Celtic" languages.


So if you mean Gaelic lands then yes the Slavic genes are uncommon in Gaelic countries.

I mean Gaelic, Brythonic, Gaulish, and Celtiberian lands.


But they are present in small amounts.

I haven't seen any, and my focus is I2, which is especially common among Slavs. The I2 in Gaelic, Brythonic, Gaulish, and Celtiberian peoples is entirely different. Specifically, almost all Slavic I2 is I2a1b1a-Din, with a small minority of I2a2a-Cont3. On the other hand, Brythonic and Gaelic I2 tends to be I2a2a1, I2a2a4, I2a1b2-Isles, I2a1b1*-Disles, and I2a1a. Gaulish and Celtiberian descendants seem to share the I2a1a and I2a1b2-Isles (Gaulish only), and Gaulish descendants add I2a2b, I2c, I2a1*, and some others.


the quote is from bob quin' book. He was wandering if Gaelic languages were celtic languages and Gaelic languages survived dispite 1000 years of cultural colonisation and suppression, why didn'g Gaelic languages survive in central and western europe. he concluded that if Celts even existed the reason Gaelic didn't survive in the mainland europe is because celts didn't speak s Gaelic language. Which language they did speak he didn't go into as his interest is Gaelic and not Celtic. But he states this many times that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and did not come to british isles from mainland europe but from Spain and north and west Africa.

Occam's Razor, to me, suggests that Gaulish evolved its unique characteristics after the initial dispersal of proto-Celtic out of somewhere (France?... that seems far more likely than Iberia), but that there was a common proto-Celtic language. I accept, however, that the Halstatt/La Tene expansions would have happened after Gaulish developed its unique characteristics. That means that Gaels and Alpine Celts are different, but related, peoples. Calling them both "Celtic" makes a lot of sense, due to other commonalities, and due to Brythonic language and culture forming a bridge between them. And if you still don't like "Celtic," come up with another word, like "Gaelo-Celtic" or something.

Taranis
05-06-12, 20:38
the quote is from bob quin' book. He was wandering if Gaelic languages were celtic languages and Gaelic languages survived dispite 1000 years of cultural colonisation and suppression, why didn'g Gaelic languages survive in central and western europe. he concluded that if Celts even existed the reason Gaelic didn't survive in the mainland europe is because celts didn't speak s Gaelic language. Which language they did speak he didn't go into as his interest is Gaelic and not Celtic. But he states this many times that Gaelic languages are not Celtic and did not come to british isles from mainland europe but from Spain and north and west Africa.

I'm under the impression that this Bob Quinn is neither aware of the history of the Gaelic languages, nor has he an understanding of linguistics. Would he have this, he'd be aware that what he claims there is complete nonsense. I'm sorry that I have to say it like that, but it's true.

By the time of the Romans, the Irish language did not yet exist in a form that we would recognize as such.


they were nor refered to as celts by all knowing romans and greeks but somehow they speek celtic language? how can this be? and again we come to the question: "what is a celtic language? and how did we come to the definition or the celtic language"

The ancient Greeks and Romans were neither all-knowing, nor were they free of mistakes. But in this specific case, the explanation is a different one: they were actually aware of the high degree of similarity of languages and culture between the British Isles and Gaul (both Tacitus, in his Agricola, and Julius Caesar, in his commentaries on the Gallic War, mention this actually!). Where the difference comes from is that the Romans didn't think in the dimensions of modern-day ethno-linguistic concepts. For them, Britain and Gaul were two distinct geographic entities, and they treated it's denizens as such.

Additionally, just because people speak related, even very similar languages doesn't mean that they identify as a common identity: to pick a few modern examples, take the Dutch and the Germans, the Danes and the Norwegians, or the English and the Americans.

As for what a Celtic language is: in the linguistic context, any language family is defined by a common set of sound changes that all languages in this family have in common. In the case of the Celtic languages, there is a number of sound changes that all Celtic languages have in common and that sets them apart from the other branches of Indo-European. If you go further down, you can establish sound laws for instance all Brythonic languages have in common which puts them apart from the other Celtic languages.


it is actually the oposite. irish language is over 5000 years old and the celtic elements are relative newcommers.

That's impossible. Where does this 5000 years figure come from? The Irish language is only attested from the 4th century AD onward. As I said, the oldest testimony of Irish is the Ogham inscriptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscription).


i really don't want to go into this here this is a thread on veneti and wendi, but we can continue this discusion here or on another thread if you want.

This discussion about the Gaels is actually somewhat related to the "Veneti", at least the Gaulish Veneti. As another Eupedia board member pointed out (I don't recall whom, but I would like to give said person hereby credit), the word "Gael" is actually in itself an exonym, that is, a foreign designation for the Irish people, and it is actually derived from Medieval Welsh "Guoidel", meaning "pirate". So, the Irish did not designate themselves as "Gaels" before the Medieval Ages. There is actually another term attested in Old Irish, "Féni", which means "compatriots" or "Irishmen". Now, this term is actually cognate of the "wen-" in the tribal name "Veneti".

Yetos
05-06-12, 21:13
yetos

Odyssey Belchevsky didn' pick words from modern Greek. He picked words from Homeric greek. lots of them have no real root except in slavic languages. again you are arguing with the wrong guy, as i wasn't the one to write the above text.

and I repeat
If I take words of one language and compare with another then surely due to IE connection I will find similarities,
Does it means that the other language is wrong?
does it mean the second language explains better the first one?

just search what the author wants to prove,
word
bolinthos Thracian
Volos Greek
Bol South Slavic
what does it mean?
that South Slav Bol is mother of Greek Volos and Thracian Volinthos?

Yetos
05-06-12, 21:32
what are you talking about?

χασαποσερβικο chasaposerbiko is a dance that was danced by Greeks and Slavic Makedonians beef meat merchants mainly.
as you it has 2 words
χασαπ chasap which is Turkish and means butcher
and σερβικο which means Serbian

did you see me or read that that I deny that after 6th century South Slavs did not enter, or did not occupy parts of Greece?
but as you see it has the word χασαπ which is turkish
WHICH SURELY MEANS THE DANCE AND THE RYTHM IS NOT ANCIENT BUT DEVELOPED AT OTTOMAN TIMES

on the other hand you said about chasapiko χασαπικο which means in Turkish Butcher's
chasapiko belong to a family of dances that contain also
απταλικος aptal
ρεμπετ rempet from ancient Greek ρεμβατικος ρεμβη
ζεμπεκικος zeimpek which is an ancient Phrygian dance

what Slavic has to do with chasapikos?

did you ever seen them? or listen to them?


strange you notice the word Serbiko but not the word hasap!!!!!

zanipolo
06-06-12, 10:12
I'm under the impression that this Bob Quinn is neither aware of the history of the Gaelic languages, nor has he an understanding of linguistics. Would he have this, he'd be aware that what he claims there is complete nonsense. I'm sorry that I have to say it like that, but it's true.

By the time of the Romans, the Irish language did not yet exist in a form that we would recognize as such.



The ancient Greeks and Romans were neither all-knowing, nor were they free of mistakes. But in this specific case, the explanation is a different one: they were actually aware of the high degree of similarity of languages and culture between the British Isles and Gaul (both Tacitus, in his Agricola, and Julius Caesar, in his commentaries on the Gallic War, mention this actually!). Where the difference comes from is that the Romans didn't think in the dimensions of modern-day ethno-linguistic concepts. For them, Britain and Gaul were two distinct geographic entities, and they treated it's denizens as such.

Additionally, just because people speak related, even very similar languages doesn't mean that they identify as a common identity: to pick a few modern examples, take the Dutch and the Germans, the Danes and the Norwegians, or the English and the Americans.

As for what a Celtic language is: in the linguistic context, any language family is defined by a common set of sound changes that all languages in this family have in common. In the case of the Celtic languages, there is a number of sound changes that all Celtic languages have in common and that sets them apart from the other branches of Indo-European. If you go further down, you can establish sound laws for instance all Brythonic languages have in common which puts them apart from the other Celtic languages.



That's impossible. Where does this 5000 years figure come from? The Irish language is only attested from the 4th century AD onward. As I said, the oldest testimony of Irish is the Ogham inscriptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscription).



This discussion about the Gaels is actually somewhat related to the "Veneti", at least the Gaulish Veneti. As another Eupedia board member pointed out (I don't recall whom, but I would like to give said person hereby credit), the word "Gael" is actually in itself an exonym, that is, a foreign designation for the Irish people, and it is actually derived from Medieval Welsh "Guoidel", meaning "pirate". So, the Irish did not designate themselves as "Gaels" before the Medieval Ages. There is actually another term attested in Old Irish, "Féni", which means "compatriots" or "Irishmen". Now, this term is actually cognate of the "wen-" in the tribal name "Veneti".

feni like below
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm


Veneti and Feni in Gaul and Ireland
The Veneti were a sea-faring people in Brittany which was also known as Armorica. Their location was in Northwest France across the sea from Devon and Cornwall in southwest Britain. The Veneti show signs of Phoenician culture as recorded F. de Rougemont. "L'Age du Bronze", Paris 1866. Their territory corresponded broadly to the modern French departement of Finisterre, whose name reflects the same meaning in Latin, Finis Terre i.e. end of the earth.

http://britam.org/Venicnii3.jpg




could the modern town of brittany called Vannes which represents the Veneti also represent the Unelli

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli

dublin
06-06-12, 10:40
yetos

i lived in crete for a year. i played tavurlu in a rebetico band. i listened to greek music a lot and can compare the rythams and melodies very well. i also spoke to greek people who were really into traditional greek music and they all told me that both demotiko and serviko are slavic dances. i did not say that they come from antiquity, yust that the slavs must have been a very numerous population in the whole of Greece in order to have such influence on Greek music. the same goes for scandinavia and ireland.

About Belchevski make up your own mind. i think that he has proven that Slavic languages or proto slavic if you want, existed in the Balkans early enough to be able to influence homerian greek and roman. that is all. what is funy is how adamant you are that this is not possible and you are not putting forward any valid counter argument.

dublin
06-06-12, 11:17
taranis


I'm under the impression that this Bob Quinn is neither aware of the history of the Gaelic languages, nor has he an understanding of linguistics. Would he have this, he'd be aware that what he claims there is complete nonsense. I'm sorry that I have to say it like that, but it's true.

just because you say something does not mean it is true.


By the time of the Romans, the Irish language did not yet exist in a form that we would recognize as such.

how do you know? give me some proof for this please.


The ancient Greeks and Romans were neither all-knowing, nor were they free of mistakes. But in this specific case, the explanation is a different one:


why are you so sure that in this case they are telling the truth and that they are right? i would approach this with the same amount of scepticism. both greeks and romans are known to have been changing the facts the way it suited their daily politics.


they were actually aware of the high degree of similarity of languages and culture between the British Isles and Gaul (both Tacitus, in his Agricola, and Julius Caesar, in his commentaries on the Gallic War, mention this actually!).


you see i don't actually deny this at all. they did speak the same languages: Gaelic and Celtic. we know what Gaelic is, but we don''t know what Celtic language was.


Additionally, just because people speak related, even very similar languages doesn't mean that they identify as a common identity: to pick a few modern examples, take the Dutch and the Germans, the Danes and the Norwegians, or the English and the Americans.


Couldn't agree more. this is what i have been telling about Slavs. They all spoke the same language, but they never called themselves Slavs. They always called themselves by their family or tribe name. Slavs was one of the names given to them by foreigners.



As for what a Celtic language is: in the linguistic context, any language family is defined by a common set of sound changes that all languages in this family have in common. In the case of the Celtic languages, there is a number of sound changes that all Celtic languages have in common and that sets them apart from the other branches of Indo-European. If you go further down, you can establish sound laws for instance all Brythonic languages have in common which puts them apart from the other Celtic languages.

I understand all this. What i don't understand is how did we arrive to calling Brytonic and Gaelic languages Celtic? And if most of Europe was once Celtic, how come these two languages, or any similar language did not survive anywhere else in europe?


That's impossible. Where does this 5000 years figure come from? The Irish language is only attested from the 4th century AD onward. As I said, the oldest testimony of Irish is the Ogham inscriptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscription).


there are numerous place names in the west of Ireland which have root Doire (oak wood). West of ireland is a bog country with some of the oldest bogs in the world. the last oaks that grew in the west of Ireland grew before 3000 bc. yet accordint to the place names (thousands) the area was full of oak trees. The only explanation is that the place names are at least 5000 years old and that people who gave these place names spoke Gaielic.


the word "Gael" is actually in itself an exonym, that is, a foreign designation for the Irish people, and it is actually derived from Medieval Welsh "Guoidel", meaning "pirate". So, the Irish did not designate themselves as "Gaels" before the Medieval Ages.
I am not sure of this but it is quite possible. Irish have been called Scots and have called themselves Scots until the late medieval period. i know that in the old irish manuscripts, they always call foreigners Gauls, which would mean that they made a distinction between themselves and Gauls. it is quite possible that Gaelic and Gaulic people coexised in ireland for a very long time. i believe that first Gauls (foreighers) were the Celts from Gaul, who spoke a diferent language. Those Gauls were also Veneti. And Veneti were Slavs. This is why i think that Gauls, Veneti, Celts and Slavs are linked or the same and are diferent from the Gaels. if you are looking for Celts and Celtic languages you are looking at the wrong direction. look east not west.

dublin
06-06-12, 11:18
two chapters from Bob Quin book

http://www.scribd.com/doc/96137030/From-Bob-Quin-Book

dublin
06-06-12, 12:00
sparkey


Sure, we can say that Gaelic languages are only related to Celtic languages

Celtic languages don't exist. Celtic language was invented as a term to separate Gaelic and Brytonic from Anglosaxon languages. Can you give me an example of a living Celtic language from anywhere else in Europe and show me the connection wint the Gaelic languages which is not common connection between other germanic or slavic or latin or greek languages. Somthing uniquely celtic. i am really curious to hear what you have to say.


I haven't seen any, and my focus is I2, which is especially common among Slavs.

isn't r1a1 the slavic one? and here it is in all the Gaelic countries. not a lot but it is there.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

as for I2a1 which is the old slavic branch. and here it is in all the Gaelic countries. not a lot but it is there.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Taranis
06-06-12, 12:19
taranis

I believe that you are convinced that what you are saying is true. I personally have no such strong views on things. I only strongly believe that in history nothing is certain and every document is potential falsificat or propaganda material and needs to be used in conjunction with linguistic, archeological, ethnographic and nowadays genetic data.

I have read and am still reading the greek and roman historical documents when I want to find referenced that other people are quoting. I believe that professor Curta has probably spent years studying the same documents that you are recommending and has come to the conclusion that the migration never happened and that slavs as people were always in the Balkans but were only defined as Slavs when they were defined as such by the Greeks and Romans. as i said before in one of my posts, Slavs didn't call themselves Slavs until very recently. Professor Curta got a prestigious award for the book in which he explained how he had arrived to this conclusion. I personally, from what I know so far, agree with professor Curta.

Dublin, having an academic grade does not make people infallible. Academics are only humans. They make mistakes, sometimes they are biased, and sometimes, they just overlook facts. I mean, Florin Curta is probably a well-educated scholar on the topic of medieval Balkans, but he strikes me as a person who has no knowledge of linguistics or ancient place names. Otherwise he would not forward such ideas.


taranis

just because you say something does not mean it is true.

Just because it's written in a book doesn't mean it is true, either.


how do you know? give me some proof for this please.

As a matter of fact, I already have. I have mentioned the Ogham inscriptions twice now. Take a look at the Irish words in Ogham inscriptions, and compare them to their modern Irish (or Old Irish, for that matter) cognates, and against cognates in old Celtic languages (Gaulish, Celtiberian), you'll easily realize that they are very different from the former, but much more similar to the latter.

for example, the word for "son":

- Gaulish "mapos"
- Oghamic Irish "maqqos"
- Old Irish "macc"
- Modern Irish "mac"

The interesting part is that the word is attested in Ogham inscriptions as the genitive form "maqqi". Both Gaulish and Latin had the same genitive ending. This proves that ancient Irish had a very similar declension system to Gaulish, to Latin, or other "old" Indo-European languages.


why are you so sure that in this case they are telling the truth and that they are right? i would approach this with the same amount of scepticism. both greeks and romans are known to have been changing the facts the way it suited their daily politics.

Well, it's the sum of all evidence at work here. See below.


you see i don't actually deny this at all. they did speak the same languages: Gaelic and Celtic. we know what Gaelic is, but we don''t know what Celtic language was.

You don't understand that the modern Gaelic languages are in fact Celtic languages.


Couldn't agree more. this is what i have been telling about Slavs. They all spoke the same language, but they never called themselves Slavs. They always called themselves by their family or tribe name. Slavs was one of the names given to them by foreigners.

No, you don't understand (see below).


I understand all this. What i don't understand is how did we arrive to calling Brytonic and Gaelic languages Celtic?

Well, this was a convention by linguists in the 19th century when they began to research into Indo-European languages. As I said, Irish and Welsh share common sound changes with Gaulish and Celtiberian that set them apart from other Indo-European languages.

One unique sound change in the Celtic languages is the disappearance of the PIE *p sound, if you compare the word for "father":

Irish "athair"
English - "father"
Latin - "pater"
Hindi - "pitā"

In addition, both the Gaelic languages and the Brythonic languages have sound changes that set them apart from the other Celtic languages. In Old Irish (but not Oghamic Irish), Proto-Celtic *w- became *f-. In contrast, in Brythonic *w- became *gw- For example, the word for "alder":

Old Irish "fern"
Modern Irish "fearn"
Welsh "gwern"
Gaulish "wern-" (as in the tribal name "Arverni")

Likewise, Brythonic developed *s- to *h-, for example, the word for "old":

Old Irish "sen"
Modern Irish "sean"
Welsh "hen"
Breton "hen"
Gaulish "sen-" (as in the tribal name "Senones")


And if most of Europe was once Celtic, how come these two languages, or any similar language did not survive anywhere else in europe?

Well, there was this wonderful thing called the Roman Empire which conquered most Celtic-speaking lands in Europe. And indeed, most areas that formerly spoke Celtic languages speak today Romance languages. Additionally, there's migrations of the Germanic tribes, of the Slavs, and even later, of the Magyars into areas that were formerly Celtic.

The only areas where Celtic languages survived were in Ireland (which was never occupied by the Romans) and in Britain, where they evolved into the Gaelic and Brythonic languages respectively.


there are numerous place names in the west of Ireland which have root Doire (oak wood). West of ireland is a bog country with some of the oldest bogs in the world. the last oaks that grew in the west of Ireland grew before 3000 bc. yet accordint to the place names (thousands) the area was full of oak trees. The only explanation is that the place names are at least 5000 years old and that people who gave these place names spoke Gaielic.

Who says that the word originally means "oak"? If you look at many other Indo-European languages, the word rather means "tree" or "wood", rather than explictly "oak". Notably, English "tree", Russian "derevo", Albanian "dru" all mean "tree", rather than "oak".


About Belchevski make up your own mind. i think that he has proven that Slavic languages or proto slavic if you want, existed in the Balkans early enough to be able to influence homerian greek and roman. that is all. what is funy is how adamant you are that this is not possible and you are not putting forward any valid counter argument.

Let me put forward a valid counter-argument. There is plenty of evidence in the Slavic languages that they are not native to the Balkans. I'll pick one excellent example, namely the word for "beech":

Bulgarian "buk"
Czech "buk"
Polish "buk"
Russian "buk"
Ukrainian "buk"

This word is a Germanic loanword, because if you compare it:

Anglo-Saxon "boc"
English "beech"
German "Buche"
Swedish "bok"
Gothic "bōk"

Now, if we take a look at other Indo-European languages:

Gaulish "bagos"
Latin "fagus" (note that this, is also the borrowing source of the modern Irish and Welsh words)
Greek "phēgos"

Thus in Celtic (Gaulish), Germanic, Greek and Italic (Latin) we find regular reflexes of the same root *bhāg-. Now, if this word was reflected regularly into Slavic, we would expect something like "bag", which is different from the observed form "buk". The only explanation is that the word for "beech" is a borrowing from Germanic into Slavic. Now, if we take a look at the natural distribution of beeches in Europe:

http://www.waldwissen.net/wald/baeume_waldpflanzen/laub/bfw_buche/bfw_buche_baumportrait_2006_1

You realize that there is plenty of beeches on the Balkans and that the Slavs must have originated in an area where no beeches grew, and that they subsequently borrowed this word from Germanic when they expanded into Germanic-speaking areas during the Migration Period. Had the Slavs been native to the Balkans, they would obviously have a native word for "beech", now wouldn't they?

Yetos
06-06-12, 12:49
yetos

i lived in crete for a year. i played tavurlu in a rebetico band. i listened to greek music a lot and can compare the rythams and melodies very well. i also spoke to greek people who were really into traditional greek music and they all told me that both demotiko and serviko are slavic dances. i did not say that they come from antiquity, yust that the slavs must have been a very numerous population in the whole of Greece in order to have such influence on Greek music. the same goes for scandinavia and ireland.

About Belchevski make up your own mind. i think that he has proven that Slavic languages or proto slavic if you want, existed in the Balkans early enough to be able to influence homerian greek and roman. that is all. what is funy is how adamant you are that this is not possible and you are not putting forward any valid counter argument.


Dublin
first I don't know whaat they told you
there is no serbiko dance but hasaposerbiko and I told you what it means
second demotiko means public
demotiko song (δημοτικα τραγουδια) is all tratidional folk dances and not one style
demotiko can be cretan aromani makedonian epirotan etc
demotiko are all the dances and rythms except the ancient and modern after 1922
if you know about demotiko then you know that demotiko shares unigue rythms with Bulgaria and Albania as a polyphonic which is the base of orthodox church songs

about Slavic influence mainly starts from 9th century and not from antiquity as you proposing
that is a common hobby-steal in Balkans, many dances and song and rythms are translated from one country to another.
example is goran bregovic songs 1990's which Greeks love them and many are translated,
on the other hand have you search about foreign rythms in Serbia?

what about kocek? is it Slavic?
nο way


to remind you and notice the difference

hasaposerbiko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c9DKbRmEJw&feature=related

hasapiko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ36gAA-s_o&feature=related

Demotiko-polyphonic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o34AmIak5O0&feature=related

and to make some fun, the bellow is a shake dance of 60's based on a polyphonic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ6HKhgWbGk

Now Dublin
as you see only the first reach Slavic rythms but is it?

is there any any dance in Poland Slovakia ucraine simmilar to xasaposerbiko?
no way
so even what the Greeks call *serbiko might not be Slavic



in the other hand look at Serbian names
all ending in -dic -vic
the only known ending in such sound are the greek -ης espesially the -δης

Do you know any other Slavic names except Serbia that names end in in -ic?
NO usual ending is -ov -off and -ovski

so the influence and the exchange among Greeks and Srbs in obvious
what Srbs call as Slavic in Greece might be Greek since Greek names exist in Serbia

consider that 15% of Serbia at 1800 were Greeks the merchant road to Vienna

and in another post you said aromani are mountain people,
well no
there are aromani fishing villages in Greece and aromani villages at low lands not breeders but farmers fishermen and merchants which proves that aromani is not a mountainous population and lived in roman speaking villages (villas) the probably belong to a Roman elite or senate member, or a retired general


@Dublin
if you search demotiko rythms and songs you realiase that Serbian and Slavic Makedonian culture is more Greek than Slavicif you go to south Italy and study the rythms you see that same rythms exist in fyrom and serbian and bulgarian songs also but not in poland slovakia or russia, why?

dublin
06-06-12, 13:38
Dublin, having an academic grade does not make people infallible. Academics are only humans. They make mistakes, sometimes they are biased, and sometimes, they just overlook facts. I mean, Florin Curta is probably a well-educated scholar on the topic of medieval Balkans, but he strikes me as a person who has no knowledge of linguistics or ancient place names. Otherwise he would not forward such ideas.

and people who gave him the award also don't know what they are talking about and they are all putting their careers on the line because of what? I don't believe that he is biased either as he is not Slavic or Serbian and can not be accused of serbian or slavic propaganda.


Just because it's written in a book doesn't mean it is true, either.

agreed. so lets stop taking any book as a gospel and start using our brains.


- Gaulish "mapos"
- Oghamic Irish "maqqos"
- Old Irish "macc"
- Modern Irish "mac"

The interesting part is that the word is attested in Ogham inscriptions as the genitive form "maqqi". Both Gaulish and Latin had the same genitive ending. This proves that ancient Irish had a very similar declension system to Gaulish, to Latin, or other "old" Indo-European languages.


written irish is a complete invention by the first christian scolars and can be used as a proof for anything. the above just proves that who ever was using ogham was using a latin like language and not Gaelic. by the way ogham was imported to ireland from wales.


You don't understand that the modern Gaelic languages are in fact Celtic languages.

no this is not a fact. this is a theory. we don't know what Celtic languages were like.


As I said, Irish and Welsh share common sound changes with Gaulish and Celtiberian that set them apart from other Indo-European languages.

so are these your Celtic languages? are there any other Celtic languages in western and central europe?


One unique sound change in the Celtic languages is the disappearance of the PIE *p sound, if you compare the word for "father":

Irish "athair"
English - "father"
Latin - "pater"
Hindi - "pitā"



Ata means father/anchestor in Turkish.
"Ata" means "father" in Slovene too. this is in fact true for all slavic languages where ata is the old version of tata. this is where ataman comes from.
I think atta meant 'father' in ancient Gothic where it comes from slavic.
Atta is "father" also in Latin, Hittite.
In Hebrew 'ata' means 'you' - male, singular.
In Greenlandic aataa means grandfather and ataata means father

i could go on and on. if this is the Celtic link it is a very week one.


In addition, both the Gaelic languages and the Brythonic languages have sound changes that set them apart from the other Celtic languages. In Old Irish (but not Oghamic Irish), Proto-Celtic *w- became *f-. In contrast, in Brythonic *w- became *gw- For example, the word for "alder":

Old Irish "fern"
Modern Irish "fearn"
Welsh "gwern"
Gaulish "wern-" (as in the tribal name "Arverni")

Likewise, Brythonic developed *s- to *h-, for example, the word for "old":

Old Irish "sen"
Modern Irish "sean"
Welsh "hen"
Breton "hen"
Gaulish "sen-" (as in the tribal name "Senones")


I am sorry. What is this supposed to prove?


Well, there was this wonderful thing called the Roman Empire which conquered most Celtic-speaking lands in Europe. And indeed, most areas that formerly spoke Celtic languages speak today Romance languages. Additionally, there's migrations of the Germanic tribes, of the Slavs, and even later, of the Magyars into areas that were formerly Celtic.


again i have to ask you if Celtic languages are Gaelic + Bretonic or do you include any other ones?
as for romans and the barbarians, you are saying that they completely destroyed the Celtic languages in the Celtic heartlands of central europe but failed to do so in for instance britany? you would think that they would do the same to all the Celts without exceptions.


The only areas where Celtic languages survived were in Ireland (which was never occupied by the Romans) and in Britain, where they evolved into the Gaelic and Brythonic languages respectively.

romans, anglo saxons, normans, vikings, british. they all tried to eradicate the Gaelic language and Gaelic people by force. in ireland it was forbiden to speak Gaelic during the british rule. yet the language survived.

i think the only explanation why the Gaelic is not found anywhere else in europe is because it was never spoken anywhere else in europe. Gaelic languages survived in the areas where they were always spoken.


Who says that the word originally means "oak"? If you look at many other Indo-European languages, the word rather means "tree" or "wood", rather than explictly "oak". Notably, English "tree", Russian "derevo", Albanian "dru" all mean "tree", rather than "oak".

a Native irish speaker who spent 20 years researching the subject. and your explanation does not change the fact that the last tree of any kind, and not just oaks, grew in the are before 3000 bc when they were covered with bog. and the reason why we know it is oak and not other trees, is that huge amount of bog oaks, the preserved stumps of oak trees, were and still are found in bogs which are that old.

i don't get this thing with beech.

Bulgarian "buk"
Czech "buk"
Polish "buk"
Russian "buk"
Ukrainian "buk"

also Serbian, Croatian, and all the other balkan slavic languages. remember no 21a1 here yet the same word.

and here is more:

http://translate.definitions.net/beech


This word is a Germanic loanword, because if you compare it:

Anglo-Saxon "boc"
English "beech"
German "Buche"
Swedish "bok"
Gothic "bōk"

Now, if we take a look at other Indo-European languages:

Gaulish "bagos"
Latin "fagus" (note that this, is also the borrowing source of the modern Irish and Welsh words)
Greek "phēgos"

Thus in Celtic (Gaulish), Germanic, Greek and Italic (Latin) we find regular reflexes of the same root *bhāg-.Now, if this word was reflected regularly into Slavic, we would expect something like "bag",...




I don't get this argument. first german word sound like buk to me.

also

estonian - pöök (no beeches)
finish - pyökki (no beeches)
arficans (old west germanic) - beukeboom (beech country)
hungarian - bükk(fa) (beech country)
icelandic - beykitré (no beeches)
italian - faggio (beech country)
french - hêtre (beech country)
spanish - haya (beech country)
portugese - faia (beech country)
bukas - lithuanian (no beeches)
beuk; beuken- holand (beech country)

as you can see your above statement makes no sense as we have buk as a root in both german and dutch which are germanic languages, but also in all balt languages. and then completely diferent words in romanic languages.

actually your map overlaps with the venti (slavic) teritory and i wouldn't be surprised if the word actually comes from Slavic languages and was migrated to other languages where it became diferent because it was addopted and changed to suit the local language rules.

you should pick better examples.



Beech wood tablets were a common writing material in Germanic societies before the development of paper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper). The Old English bōc[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech#cite_note-5) and Old Norse bók[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech#cite_note-6) both have the primary sense of “beech” but also a secondary sense of “book”, and it is from bōc that the modern word derives.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech#cite_note-7) In modern German, the word for “book” is Buch, with Buche meaning “beech tree”. In Swedish, these words are the same, bok meaning both “beech tree” and “book”.


the same in slavic languages buk - beech, bukva - beech tree or wood, bukva, bukvica, bukvi - book or text or leters.

so maybe english book comes feom slavic buk for beech and book, which just proves that the original word was infact slavic.

dublin
06-06-12, 13:39
yetos


if you know about demotiko then you know that demotiko shares unigue rythms with Bulgaria and Albania as a polyphonic which is the base of orthodox church songs

it is actually closest to serbian and makedonian folk music.

Taranis
06-06-12, 14:41
Dublin,

I don't want to go into detail to your latest post because you have demonstrated to me that you have no understanding of linguistics. Which is why I will go back to the basics and explain them to you, and I will ask you then to re-read my post.

One of the most underlying principle in compative linguistics is sound correspondence. That one sound in language A corresponds to a sound B in a different language, even if the they have different values. What's at work here are thus sound changes, which can be formulated as sound laws. A very famous example of an entire set of sound laws is Grimm's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law), which governs the changes from Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic. This, for example, is found here:

Let's take a look at the word for 'two' in various branches of IE:

Baltic:
Lithuanian - Du
Latvian - Divi

Celtic:
Breton - Daou
Irish - Dhá
Welsh - Dau

Germanic:
Danish - To
Dutch - Twee
German - Zwei
Gothic - Twai
Norwegian - To
Swedish - Två

Italic/Romance:
Catalan - Dos
French - Deux
Italian - Due
Latin - Duo
Portuguese - Dois
Romanian - Două
Spanish - Dos

Slavic:
Belorussian - Dva
Bulgarian - Dve
Croatian - Dva
Czech - Dvě
Polish - Dwa
Russian - Dva
Serbian - Dva
Slovak - Dve
Slovenian - Dva
Ukrainian - Dva

Other IE:
Greek - Duo
Sanskrit - Dvi
Hindi - Dō

As you can see, with the notable exception of the Germanic languages, in all language families in the list, the word for 'two' starts with *d-. The Proto-Indo-Europan word for 'two' is reconstructed as 'dwo-'. Now, regarding the Germanic languages, the word is (with exception of German, but note that German 'z' is pronounced as /ts/) consistently *t. From that, we establish the hypothesis that Germanic *t corresponds with PIE *d. So, if we look at a few other English words, and compare it with cognates in other IE languages (I here take Latin), we can confirm this:

(to) teach - dicere
(to) tame - domare
ten - decem
Tues(-day) - Deus

We can establish that English (and by extension, Germanic) *t corresponds with PIE *d. Now, let's take a look at a few English words and their German cognates:

tame - zahm
tap - zapfen
ten - zehn
(to) tie - ziehen
(to) tear - zerren
to - zu

From that we can establish that German /ts-/ corresponds with English (and other Germanic) /t-/, and by extension that German *ts- corresponds with PIE *d.

So, the underlying principle (the so-called "Neogrammarian Hypothesis) is that sound laws have no exceptions. This means when a sound change occurs, it must affect all words in the vocabulary of a language. If there are seemingly exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules (for example, only at the beginning of a word, only between vowels, etc.). Additionally, sound laws have no memory of previous sound changes.

So, to pick up the example of *bhāg- (beech):

PIE *bh- is reflected into Celtic, Germanic and Slavic as *b-
PIE *bh- is reflected into Italic as *f-
PIE *bh- is reflected into Greek as *ph-

(other examples of the above would be this):

("brother")
Old Irish - bráthair (also, modern Scottish Gaelic - bràthair)
English - brother
Latin - frater
Greek - phrater
Russian - brat

("to bear")
Old Irish - biru
English - (to) bear
Latin - ferre
Greek - pherō

(as you can see from these examples, the sound changes are perfectly regular in the respective languages)


PIE *g is reflected into Germanic as *k
PIE *g is reflected into Celtic, Greek, Italic and Slavic as *g

It is such thus impossible for the word "buk" to be a native Slavic word. The shift PIE *g > *k however is found in Germanic, and hence *k must be a Germanic borrowing into Slavic. The idea that the word came from Slavic and, as you put it, "became different because it was adopted to suit the local language rules" is impossible because, as I stated, sound laws have no memory!

FBS
06-06-12, 16:54
This is an interesting graph from http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-criticism-of-language-origin-in.html

Might give some answers to dublin and others probably:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AdJj1E493q4/Tz1C2hXMOOI/AAAAAAAAEgM/YrzEKNWKvsA/s1600/indoeuropean.jpg

sparkey
06-06-12, 17:37
Celtic languages don't exist. Celtic language was invented as a term to separate Gaelic and Brytonic from Anglosaxon languages.

I was actually trying to work within your framework in that quote. Go ahead and replaced "Celtic" with "Gaulish" in that quote and see if it makes more sense to you then.


Can you give me an example of a living Celtic language from anywhere else in Europe and show me the connection wint the Gaelic languages which is not common connection between other germanic or slavic or latin or greek languages. Somthing uniquely celtic. i am really curious to hear what you have to say.

Why does it have to be living? We're usually talking about Gaulish when we're talking about the other side of the Celtic language tree from the Gaelic languages. Celtiberian is another. Taranis is doing a good job of explaning the similarities between these languages.


isn't r1a1 the slavic one? and here it is in all the Gaelic countries. not a lot but it is there.

Some R1a subclades are basically exclusive to Slavs, but they aren't the ones that pop up in Celtic language areas.


as for I2a1 which is the old slavic branch. and here it is in all the Gaelic countries. not a lot but it is there.

Similarly, I already explained which I2 subclades are present among Slavs, and which are prominent in Celtic language areas. They are different.

dublin
06-06-12, 18:39
an interesting article from irish times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0519/1224316320037.html

dublin
06-06-12, 18:42
taranis thank you for your explanation. i still don't agree with you. also what hapened with all the other question i have asked you. do you have answers to any of them?

dublin
06-06-12, 18:45
sparkey


Some R1a subclades are basically exclusive to Slavs, but they aren't the ones that pop up in Celtic language areas.

just because there are some subclades that only appear amongst slavs does not mean that others are not slavic either. where is the logic in your argument?

Taranis
06-06-12, 18:55
taranis thank you for your explanation. i still don't agree with you.

Well, let me ask you this: do you believe that the methodology that linguists have developed over the past 130+ years, which indeed is the framework for every language family that has been established (read: it works for all language families), is complete nonsense? Because that is the consequence of your opinion.


also what hapened with all the other question i have asked you. do you have answers to any of them?

If you had read my posts more thoroughly, you'd have realized that I actually answered most of the questions.

What I might perhaps add is this: you asked what actually constituted Celtic languages. Conviniently, the Celtic languages can be divided into four branches:

Goidelic, which includes Irish, Manx Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, as well as their ancestor languages (Oghamic Irish and Old Irish)

Brythonic, which includes Breton, Cornish and Welsh, as well as their ancestor language (Common Brythonic, which was spoken during the Roman period). What possibly can also be included here is Pictish.

Gaulish (or "Gallic"), which also includes it's poorly-attested eastern relatives (Noric in the eastern Alps, and Galatian in Anatolia). What possibly also can be included here (though this is disputed) is the Lepontic language.

Celtiberian (sometimes also dubbed "Hispano-Celtic"), which includes Celtiberian proper as well as the poorly-attested relatives in the western part of the Iberian peninsula (principally Gallecian, in the area of modern-day Galicia).

Of these, of course, two branches (Gaulish and Celtiberian) are extinct, while the other ones (Goidelic and Brythonic) are still alive today.

sparkey
06-06-12, 20:23
just because there are some subclades that only appear amongst slavs does not mean that others are not slavic either. where is the logic in your argument?

Do you know of R1a subclades that are common between Slavic language speakers and Celtic language speakers, at resolutions that may suggest that they share a relationship to the degree you're suggesting that they do? I don't. And I can say with great certainty that we don't know of such an I2 subclade. The closest I can think of is the small amount of I2c-B spillover into the Balkans, probably resulting from a minor expansion of a leftover from the Gallic expansion on the Balkans, within the later Republic of Venice (since the extent of this young branch of I2c-B almost exactly matches the Republic of Venice, reaching a peak in Crete). But as a whole, even the Gallic expansion appears to have left very few remnants Eastward, and effectively nothing exists to indicate a Slavic-origin gene flow the other direction.

dublin
06-06-12, 22:35
taranis


Well, let me ask you this: do you believe that the methodology that linguists have developed over the past 130+ years, which indeed is the framework for every language family that has been established (read: it works for all language families), is complete nonsense? Because that is the consequence of your opinion.

i am sorry fro sounding flippant, i was rushing home and had no time to respond properly.

the above lows were developed by observing european languages and trying to make sense of them. the theory was also made based on the premise that at the time of the creation of European languages most of Europe was populated by Celts with Greeks, Romans, Germans, Balts, Iberians, Gaels, Gauls living on the fringes. The problem was that the European languages didn't behave the way people expected them to. Especially the so called Celtic languages and Germanic languages. More and more exceptions cropped up, and this is where this comes from:


So, the underlying principle (the so-called "Neogrammarian Hypothesis) is that sound laws have no exceptions. This means when a sound change occurs, it must affect all words in the vocabulary of a language. If there are seemingly exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules (for example, only at the beginning of a word, only between vowels, etc.). Additionally, sound laws have no memoryof previous sound changes.

what was missing is something to glue all the languages together, which is what the missing Celtic language should have done. but there were people who lived in all the "Celtic" lands at the time when the languages were formed. they even had their own alphabet and their own language and had left numerous written texts. those people were Etruscans and Venets and vends. But no one could read this strange language. Until one day someone did by using Slavic alphabet and Slavic languages. then someone remembered all those people throughout the history who claimed that venti ind vendi were slavs. but how was that possible when slavs only came to europe in the 5th century? then some other people went and rechecked the etymological dictionary and found out that most words in so called "old" European languages which were of unknown origin are of slavic origin. then some other people did lots of genetic studies of the European people and discovered that Slavs in the Balkans (etruscans, veneti) were in the Balkans in the antiquity and that slavs (wends) in Baltic were there since at least the lusatian culture 2300 years ago.
this is why i don't agree with your explanation for beech. it makes no sense in light of all these finds. this doesn't mean that the whole sound correspondence law is crap.

zanipolo
06-06-12, 23:21
Do you know of R1a subclades that are common between Slavic language speakers and Celtic language speakers, at resolutions that may suggest that they share a relationship to the degree you're suggesting that they do? I don't. And I can say with great certainty that we don't know of such an I2 subclade. The closest I can think of is the small amount of I2c-B spillover into the Balkans, probably resulting from a minor expansion of a leftover from the Gallic expansion on the Balkans, within the later Republic of Venice (since the extent of this young branch of I2c-B almost exactly matches the Republic of Venice, reaching a peak in Crete). But as a whole, even the Gallic expansion appears to have left very few remnants Eastward, and effectively nothing exists to indicate a Slavic-origin gene flow the other direction.

Where did you find this about I2c-B ? from KN?

Rep.of Venice policy on its partricians and merchant classes who went overseas, was
1 - You cannot bring you wife and family anywhere, except the 10000 that "colonised" crete
2 - You cannot marry anyone without the senate's approval after consciltation with the heraldry staff.
3 - You cannot bring concubines to venice/veneto from anywhere.

So, with these rules , the men could spred their ydna but it would be miniscule in numbers , and the mtdna would be fixed in majority to terafirma lands.

If this I2c-B is Gallic, where did it come from or was it there always with the ligurs-eugenai people who where the aboriginals of veneto and friuli. The major Y dna of Veneto and Friuli is R1b M173 that I know about.

zanipolo
07-06-12, 00:11
@dublin

I do not know why you insist. Historians, say the balkans, where hellenic, thraci or illyric in majority, the carpathians and north where germanic as per bastanae and peucini tribes, the finni (finnish) where north of them. The baltic where on and inland from the baltic sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
the germans/bastarnae where to the Dnieper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper) river up to the year 100AD, then the sarmatians came in , then the Goths destroyed the sarmatians around 200-300AD advancing from the baltic to the black sea. where where these slavic people ?
The slavs where not created at the time west of the Dnieper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper) river.

sparkey
07-06-12, 17:51
Where did you find this about I2c-B ? from KN?

KN is aware of it and provides an overall TMRCA for it. More in-depth analyses have been done by Bob May and Paul Givargidze, though, so my analysis is based more on their work. Neither of them proposed the Republic of Venice connection, that was originally done by hobbyist poster haithabu IIRC, but I found it fairly convincing.


Rep.of Venice policy on its partricians and merchant classes who went overseas, was
1 - You cannot bring you wife and family anywhere, except the 10000 that "colonised" crete
2 - You cannot marry anyone without the senate's approval after consciltation with the heraldry staff.
3 - You cannot bring concubines to venice/veneto from anywhere.

So, with these rules , the men could spred their ydna but it would be miniscule in numbers , and the mtdna would be fixed in majority to terafirma lands.

Wouldn't that encourage the spread of a small well-to-do merchant class at the expense of others? So, suppose a lucky family had the otherwise rare Gallic I2c-B marker, and just happened to be the ones to get such permissions. I think that would map fairly well to what we see. Although, I admit that we're deep in the realm of speculation here... just some guesses about a minor clade with a confusing distribution.


If this I2c-B is Gallic, where did it come from or was it there always with the ligurs-eugenai people who where the aboriginals of veneto and friuli. The major Y dna of Veneto and Friuli is R1b M173 that I know about.

There's pretty strong evidence that I2c is anciently associated with the Rhine. Groups A and C clearly spread from near there. B is a more confusing case, since its spread is so wide by comparison, but somewhere around the core Gallic areas would make sense with its diversity patterns.

mihaitzateo
08-06-12, 01:43
I want to show a very strange resemblance between the verb to be at positive and negative forms,between italian,serbo-croatian and romanian:
(J in serbo-croatian is pronounced as I in italian/romanian)


serbo-croatian
italian
romanian



Ja sam
Io sono
Eu sunt


Ti si
Tu sei
Tu esti


On/Ona je
lui/lei e
El/ea e (short form)


Mi smo
Noi siamo
Noi suntem


Vi ste
Voi siete
Voi sunteti


Oni/one/ona su
Oro/Loro sono
Ei/Ele sunt















Take how the negative form is formed in all languages:
In serbo-croatian you add ne between pronoun and verb and you link it to the verb.
For example:
Ja nesam;
In italian you add non between pronoun and verb:
Io non sono
In romanian you add nu between pronoun and verb:
Eu nu sunt
Now write serbo-croatian Ja nesam as Ja ne sam and see.
How can this very close resemblance be explained,since this is one of the most used verbs?
As you form the future,except different words,romanian is identical to serbo-croatian,even the particle changes same.Is the difference that serbo-croatian also got for 3rd person neuter pronoun,romanian only got masculine and feminine pronouns.


serbo-croatian
romanian



Ja ću biti
eu voi fi



Ti ćeš biti
tu vei fi



On/Ona/Ono će biti
el/ea vor fi



Mi ćemo biti
noi vom fi



Vi ćete biti
voi veti fi



Oni/one/ona će biti
ei/ele vor fi







biti = infinitive of verb to be in serbian ; fi= infinitive of verb to be in romanian - so notice also is actually exactly way in constructing the future.Notice that the additional particle for future also

Diurpaneus
08-06-12, 12:38
Regarding the connection between Sclavenes and Veneti, Curta\'s conclusion is breathtaking even if applied only to the northern Veneti: »Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.« (p. 13)Dublin,

Regarding Florin Curta's "The Making of The Slavs" you took that out of context.Besides his thoughts, he analyzes Byzantines way of thinking.

According to him ,Slavs are the product of the Avar Khaganate.


http://florida.academia.edu/FlorinCurta/Papers/161557/The_Slavic_lingua_franca_Linguistic_notes_of_an_ar chaeologist_turned_historian_ (http://florida.academia.edu/FlorinCurta/Papers/161557/The_Slavic_lingua_franca_Linguistic_notes_of_an_ar chaeologist_turned_historian_He)



He writes about the efforts(starting with Safarik) to make Venedi ancient Slavs, by adjusting historical records with "archaeology".But it is NOT his opinion,he explains how the autohtonists did it.
And everyone knows ,Slav is a MIDDLE AGES notion.


Together with language, the search for a respectable antiquity for the history of the Slavs showed two principal thrusts: one relied on the interpretation of the historical sources as closely as possible to the linguistic archaeological argument; the other located the Slavic homeland in the epicenter of the modern distribution of Slavic languages. The former began with the affirmation of trust worthiness for Jordanes’ account of the Slavic Venethi, an approach which ultimately led to the claim of Tacitus’,Pliny’s, and Ptolemy’s Venedi for the history of the Slavs. The cornerstone of this theory is Safarik’s reading of Jordanes as an accurate description of a contemporary ethnic configuration. Safarik’s interpretation is still widely accepted, despite considerable revision, in the last few decades, of traditional views of Jordanes and his Getica. The explanation of this extraordinary continuity is neither ignorance, nor language barriers.Jordanes’ Venethi have become the key argument in all constructions of the Slavic past primarily based on linguistic arguments. Like Safarik, many would show condescension for Tacitus’ “mistake” of listing Venethi among groups living in Germania, but would never doubt that Jordanes’ account is genuine. Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs. To accept this, however, involves more than a new interpretation of Getica. Jordanes built his image of the Slavs on the basis of earlier accounts and maps, without any concern for accurate description.It also means to give up evolutionary models created for explaining how the early Slavic culture derived from earlier archaeological cultures identified in the area in which Tacitus, Pliny, and Ptolemy apparently set their Venedi.A considerable amount of intellectual energy was invested in this direction between the two world wars and after 1945, and to question the theoretical premises of this approach is often perceived as denying its utility or, worse, as a bluntly revisionist coup. It is not without interest that claims that the Slavic ethnicity is a sixth-century phenomenon were met with the reaffirmation of Sedov’s theory of Slavic culture originating from the Przeworsk culture, which is often identified with the Venethi.pg.13

Taranis
08-06-12, 18:43
I'd like to say something regarding the Vistula Veneti (or Venedi):

On Tacitus' description of the "Germanic" tribes: he does not give actual localizations, and there is no reason to assume that the Veneti actually lived in Germania: Tacitus mentions the Veneti in one group with the Peucini and the Fenni. The former can be placed in the area of modern-day Moldova. Likewise, Ptolemy places the "Finni" as he calls them in European Sarmatia.

Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, it should be pointed out that it is pretty impossible that they were Slavic. For the greater part, the Przeworks Culture was contemporary to the Roman period, and indeed the Romans recorded the area. The Przeworsk Culture was located west of the Vistula river, in an area that the Romans regarded as part of Germania (the Vistula was for Graeco-/Roman authors, at least from the 2nd century AD onward, the border between Germania and Sarmatia). The tribes living in this area were decisively not Slavic, but Germanic instead: the main tribe in the area were the Burgundians. Ptolemy places the Venedi into European Sarmatia, at the shore of the Baltic Sea, in an area that east of the Gdansk Bay, an area that is later inhabited by Baltic tribes (most notably, the Prussians).

I have two interpretations here: either that Venedi were a Baltic people, or that the term "Venedi" was a (presumably Germanic?) exonym and covered more than one ethnic group regardless of their ethnic identity. If the latter is taken into account, then some of the Venedi living further inland in Sarmatia may have been Proto-Slavic tribes, rather than Baltic ones. Additionally, this may indeed account for some continuity (even if only as an exonym) between the "Venedi" and the much later "Wends" (West Slavic peoples) living in what today is eastern Germany.

What might be added is, in my opinion the focus on the Venedi in search for the Proto-Slavs may be a dead end, and alternatively, it might be more interesting to look for them amongst the tribes that Ptolemy locates in the inland of European Sarmatia.

zanipolo
08-06-12, 21:58
I'd like to say something regarding the Vistula Veneti (or Venedi):

On Tacitus' description of the "Germanic" tribes: he does not give actual localizations, and there is no reason to assume that the Veneti actually lived in Germania: Tacitus mentions the Veneti in one group with the Peucini and the Fenni. The former can be placed in the area of modern-day Moldova. Likewise, Ptolemy places the "Finni" as he calls them in European Sarmatia.

Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, it should be pointed out that it is pretty impossible that they were Slavic. For the greater part, the Przeworks Culture was contemporary to the Roman period, and indeed the Romans recorded the area. The Przeworsk Culture was located west of the Vistula river, in an area that the Romans regarded as part of Germania (the Vistula was for Graeco-/Roman authors, at least from the 2nd century AD onward, the border between Germania and Sarmatia). The tribes living in this area were decisively not Slavic, but Germanic instead: the main tribe in the area were the Burgundians. Ptolemy places the Venedi into European Sarmatia, at the shore of the Baltic Sea, in an area that east of the Gdansk Bay, an area that is later inhabited by Baltic tribes (most notably, the Prussians).

I have two interpretations here: either that Venedi were a Baltic people, or that the term "Venedi" was a (presumably Germanic?) exonym and covered more than one ethnic group regardless of their ethnic identity. If the latter is taken into account, then some of the Venedi living further inland in Sarmatia may have been Proto-Slavic tribes, rather than Baltic ones. Additionally, this may indeed account for some continuity (even if only as an exonym) between the "Venedi" and the much later "Wends" (West Slavic peoples) living in what today is eastern Germany.

What might be added is, in my opinion the focus on the Venedi in search for the Proto-Slavs may be a dead end, and alternatively, it might be more interesting to look for them amongst the tribes that Ptolemy locates in the inland of European Sarmatia.

just some info
i sent this once before
http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic-antiquities/47-articles/79-hiding-behind-a-piece-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi?format=pdf

Since 1990 to present day - poles and germans have been disputing the
(http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic-antiquities/47-articles/79-hiding-behind-a-piece-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi?format=pdf)Lusatian Culture (Eastern Pomerania) in which the lands of Pomeralia (danzig bay) are the lands of the venedi. This is east of the modern vistula river. The gepids ( a gothic tribe that remained on the continent while the other gothic tribes went to sweden , then gotland and then back to the vistula over time ) where south of the venedi. The Pomeranian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture) evolved from the Lusatian culture east of the Parseta river and in Pomerelia. This culture is considered to mark the (proto-)Germanic-Baltic frontier. A linguistic classification between Baltic andGermanic. Earlier, the Pomeranian culture was associated with the Bastarnae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae).

Jan M Piskorski, Pommern im Wandel der Zeit, 1999,


In the 2004 book- The Spring of the goths, it states clearly that the goths ( via archeology) where living in the bronze age on the vistula and east pommerania areas. the Germanic people proper, the rugiians arrived via norway. Basically the first germanics

(http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic-antiquities/47-articles/79-hiding-behind-a-piece-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi?format=pdf)http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

.............................
Pytheas was 200 years before tacticus and he ststed goths on the vistula delta
According to The Natural History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_History_(Pliny))" by Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder):
Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber) is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber) by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

he states
Elattova de eunh vemetai, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

translated
Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes. Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.

Could it be the venedi of the vistula was a colony originallly from the Latvian lands?


BOLD text = copied from internet

EDIT - The large island of Osel off the latvian coast was known to be gothic and later viking, then disputed between the danes and swedes until renaissance times.

Some modern books have a tribe called Winils ( venedi) arriving on the vistula.
Johannes Micraelius reproduces a map showing the area between
Rostock and Danzig south to Glogow. The map is filled with a wealth of towns
and tribal names. The Oder bears the name "Viadrus: Suevus" and the title of
the map, written over the expanse of the Pomeranian Bay, is "Vandalia Teutonica
et Gothonica nunc Pomerania" - a sure indication that Pomerania had also been
known as Vandalia, or the country of the Vandals. The same applies to the ma-p
produced by Abraham Ortelius in 1584. Its title runs "Rugiae, Usedeomiae et
julinae, Wandalicarum insularum vera descriptio".

To this day, some scholars "marry" the vandals and venedi as the same tribe.
recent book ( last 5 years) called the Vends of Scandinanvia is still being disputed.

mihaitzateo
09-06-12, 00:35
Gothica of Jordanes I do not how reliable it is.
Take for example the tribes of Old Prussians where Jordanes tell something about those in Gothica?

Taranis
09-06-12, 16:35
Gothica of Jordanes I do not how reliable it is.
Take for example the tribes of Old Prussians where Jordanes tell something about those in Gothica?

My opinion is that Jordanes is not particularly reliable, because his early history of the Goths is interwoven with bits from Greek mythology, amongst other, utterly implausible statements, some which may be based on a confusion between the Getae and the Goths. Also to my knowledge, the (old) Prussians are not mentioned in any of the old sources, but in his Geography, Ptolemy mentions two other Baltic tribes, namely the Galindians and the Sudovians.

zanipolo
09-06-12, 23:09
these marker from Ftdna seem to be the only markers that fir the venedi and aestii ( or most likely baltic-prussians)

6.A1. Baltic (Type "Ky"/part of "NEA")
M417+, Z283+, Z280+, Z92+
R1a1a1g2d

6.A2. Baltic (Types "Kt", "Ku"/part of "NEA")
M417+, Z283+, Z280+, Z92+
R1a1a1g2d

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/7A-Z92.jpg

piero
13-06-12, 16:43
Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

zanipolo
14-06-12, 08:00
Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

hi Piero

I must get your book, i can cope with italian language, better if it was in venetian!!
Is the book exclusively based on venet(d)i between the baltic and britain?

Which ancient veneti burned their dead?, because IIRC Elise Perego has some skeltons found with the different types of amber in the veneto and friuli. The amber came from both the baltic and jutland regions.
Maybe the skeltons where the aboriginal eugenai people of the area who became veneti in the late bronze age.
http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Papers/489855/Textile_in_Venetic_cremation_tombs_c._1050_BC_-_AD_25_a_reappraisal_of_the_evidence

Magic and Ritual in Iron Age Veneto, Italy Elisa Perego (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=elise%20perego%20venetic&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CF8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpia-journal.co.uk%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2Fpia.342%2F55&ei=53_ZT4jmPIWciQfk1LiXAw&usg=AFQjCNG215ilrF6q9001vcE4WTM9YXBSgg&cad=rja)



Btw , did you write the article of the raetia being linked with the veneti.....something along the likes of the river in innsbruck being called SILL and the river being called SIL (in venetian) in the veneto plains.

In regards to R1a1a1g2d , some ydna sites call it westBaltic-prussianI feel that if their is a link between the 3 veneti ( adriatic, brittany, baltic ) then they must be associated with the Lusatian culture, But I feel only the baltic veneti have this

piero
14-06-12, 19:20
Which ancient veneti burned their dead?
It was the usual burial practise by ancient veneti across bronze age to iron age, in the common culture of Urnfields.

then they must be associated with the Lusatian culture
They say also typical for Lusatian culture was R1a1a7; it seems to be not a lot diffuse this haplogroups in Adriatic Veneto, but I don't know exactly, I have no access to subclades tables.

Elisa Perego
This archaeologist is doing a great work to understand and describe the cult of ancient veneti, I would like to keep contact with she if possible.

LeBrok
15-06-12, 07:20
The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?

It just occurred to me that there is polish word "wędrować", closest english spelling would be "wendrowach" the root is "wendr", and means "to walk long distance, to wander". I wasn't able to find the same word in any other slavic languages (I might need some help), so it looks like it is of germanic origin, maybe IE.
I don't think Veneti(di) has anything to do with name Wends.

Also, we know who is called Wends in current times, but it probably never will be known who was called Wends first.
Here is how it went in more recent history with name "Lah" coined by Ukrainians for Poles. Since Roman Empire people in (current land) Ukraine always bordered with Vlah communities in the west (Moldavia). By 15 hundreds Moldavia became a province of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poles became dominant in West Ukraine for 3 centuries and gradually became Lahi (Lahs). We should mentioned that Poles were mostly Roman Catholics, and Ukrainians were Orthodox. All Slavs call Italians Vlahs. From Ukrainian perspective, Poles might have became Vlahi (Lahi) too, regarding religious affiliation.
Looks like the exonimes are not very stable, but rather transferable.

So who knows how it went with name Wends? They could have been Celts at the beginning and Slavs at the end.

MOESAN
15-06-12, 19:58
It just occurred to me that there is polish word "wędrować", closest english spelling would be "wendrowach" the root is "wendr", and means "to walk long distance, to wander". I wasn't able to find the same word in any other slavic languages (I might need some help), so it looks like it is of germanic origin, maybe IE.
I don't think Veneti(di) has anything to do with name Wends.

Also, we know who is called Wends in current times, but it probably never will be known who was called Wends first.
Here is how it went in more recent history with name "Lah" coined by Ukrainians for Poles. Since Roman Empire people in (current land) Ukraine always bordered with Vlah communities in the west (Moldavia). By 15 hundreds Moldavia became a province of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poles became dominant in West Ukraine for 3 centuries and gradually became Lahi (Lahs). We should mentioned that Poles were mostly Roman Catholics, and Ukrainians were Orthodox. All Slavs call Italians Vlahs. From Ukrainian perspective, Poles might have became Vlahi (Lahi) too, regarding religious affiliation.
Looks like the exonimes are not very stable, but rather transferable.

So who knows how it went with name Wends? They could have been Celts at the beginning and Slavs at the end.

reasonnable
but an ununderstandable ancient foreign name can be given a phonetically close false "correspondant" in the language of a neighbouring people: venet->>wend- >> polish wendr- is finally possible (analogy error) - it occurred more than a time!
I red no long ago (Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)
for archeology and some Y-DNA (R-U152) I think to the Urnfields Culture that came from Central Europe into S-W and W Poland just before or at the very beginning the Iron Age and that appears linked in some aspects to Eastern Italic people and Celts - if the linguistic link is genuine, I see no link between first Wends and Baltic or Slavic people -

zanipolo
15-06-12, 21:48
The recent announcement made that the venedi/veneti where R1a1g M458+ L1029+, cannot be justified due to the fact that the marker runs from Finland, livonia, northern poland, lithuania, slovakia, austria, slovenia, northern italy, latvia and sweden on the claim that the slovenia language is firstly west-slavic and not south-slavic and also that the Kushubian language is slovenian and also spoken the area of the old venedi (poland)

R.G.A. de Bray comments in Guide to the South Slavonic Languages:13 "Perhaps the most interesting of the other [Slovenian] dialects is that of Carinthia... which has certain features such as the preservation, in certain regions, of the groups - tl, -dl-, and the ending -e for adjectives in the neut. sing., eg dobre mleko (= good milk) [cf. Czech), which seem to point to its being a transition stage to, West Slav." Moreover, Šavli is correct when he affirms: "Beside the lexical relationship with the Baltic languages, Slovene exhibits still other Proto-Slavic characteristics; the dual, as with the Wends in Lusatian; the supine, as with the Czechs; the genitive in the negative form as found in the Balto-Slavic group. The large number of dialects, forty-six altogether, reveals the [sic] great age of the Slovene language, as is not the case with any other Slavic language . . . In Slovene, all the reflections of the ancient Proto-Slavic have been preserved." 14

To fathom the implications of only one of these "reflections," the metathesis of /-tl/ and /-dl/, let the reader but pause to consider Šavli's statement15: "The West Slavic languages in this region [Kashubian Zone] have preserved certain ancient peculiarities; eg., the characteristic Proto-Slavic consonant pair ti and dl. The same consonant pair is retained in the northwest Russian dialect of Pskov; i.e., in the region of the 'Slovieni' ... "Actually, in point of fact, only Kashubian--often misclassified as a Polish dialect--preserves without metathesis the Proto-Slavic /-tl-/ and /-dl-/, as de Bray observes in his Guide to the West Slavonic Language,16 "... Kashubian can be considered a transition to the old dialects of the now Germanized Slavs on the left bank of the lower Oder. With them it affords some examples of Slavonic words without the metathesis of liquids ... " For the other West Slavic languages, de Bray confirms: " ... Czech: The Slavonic metathesis of liquids. Here Czech has the same forms as South Slav17 ... Slovak: The Slavonic metathesis of liquids. Slovak, like Czech, has the same forms and vowels as the South Slav languages18 ... Lusatian, like Polish has true West Slav forms with vowels ... after the liquids [metathesis]

Bor's chapter, "Similarity of the Slovene, Latvian, and Breton Words."5 The reviewer has also carried out the homework for this independently,6 inducing him to inevitable concurrence with Bor's results. The significance of Bor's discovery of a layer of Slavic loanwords in Breton cannot bc overstated. Their presence clarifies the comments of Julius Caesar's De Bello Gallico. "The Veneti are by far the strongest tribe on this coast .. They possess the most powerful fleet with which they sail as far as Britain. . ."7 Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Ptolemy, and Casius Dio also refer to the Veneti in Gaul (Armorica). Bor's recovery of these Slavic lexical loans in Breton necessitates our reexamination of certain aspects of universally accepted academic theory as exemplified by the following definition: VENETI ... A Celtic people in the northwest of Gallia Celtica ... In the winter of 57 B.C., they took up arms against the Romans, and in 56 were decisively defeated in a naval engagement."8 Bor has clearly established the existence of Slavic loans in Breton and this fact strongly suggests that prior to the arrival in Armorica of the Brythonic (Insular P-Celtic) speaking refugees fleeing the Saxon invasions of South Britain



The claim also states that the word veneti in italy only appeared in Roman times.

We find the earliest documented occurrence of the name "Veneti" in the accounts of the sack of Rome by the Celts who were forced to retreat when the Veneti broke through into their territory. During the Second Punic War, the Veneti came under the political influence of Rome, although they retained complete autonomy in internal affairs until 89 B.C.E. Thereafter, Gnaeus Pompeius Strabo conferred the lus Latinum upon them as a part of Cisalpine Gaul. Together with Istria, Augustus brought them into the tenth region of Italy with Aquileia as capital. Aquileia suffered attacks and destruction by the Alamanni, the Franks, and the Juthungi in 286 C.E., by the Goths under Alaric early in the fifth century, and by Attila in 452 C.E. Under Theodoric the Great, 493-526 C.E., the Veneti prospered, but in 568 C.E. found themselves again occupied, this time under the Lombards


The linguistic evidence is that venetic language falls under 2 spheres, 1 - a thaco-illyrian one and later a latin one
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/language_tree.htm



The conclusion to what I am saying is that for slovenian historians to justify that they are venetic people and venetic is west-slavic language is to convince the world that slovenian is an ancient tongue from the west-slavic language tree. This would mean that the home of the veneti was indeed the baltic coast and later migrated to italy and brittany.
To me Archeology says a different story

Taranis
15-06-12, 22:00
Before I get back and reply to the previous posts (sorry), I'm about to derail this topic a little (but not wholly) talking about the origin of the Slavs, since this is a related topic that consistently pops up:

- the general views linguistics holds is that the Slavs had linguistic unity until the Migration Period. That is, they spoke with a common Proto-Slavic language.


- I the same context, we must assume that during this Proto-Slavic phase (which actually lasted multiple centuries), the Proto-Slavs had contact with speakers of Iranic languages (likely the Scythians/Sarmatians at the western edge of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in what is today the south of Ukraine), as well as with speakers of Proto-Germanic (first) and East Germanic (later). The latter almost certainly corresponds to a contact with the historically known Goths.

- The early Slavs very probably were landlocked (not adjacent to the Baltic Sea, which in my opinion is one of the most forceful arguments against the Veneti being Proto-Slavic).

- From the data we get from ancient Greek/Roman sources we can be pretty certain that the early Slavs did not live in Central Europe or the Balkans.

- There's also general agreement that the Proto-Slavs lived in the forest zone, and NOT in the steppe:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Pontic_Caspian_climate.png

In terms of location, in my opinion the best archaeological culture as a candidate for the Proto-Slavs (early Proto-Slavs, anyways) is the Milograd Culture (~7th century BC to ~3rd century BC):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Milagrad_culture_map_bel.svg/696px-Milagrad_culture_map_bel.svg.png

Note that this matches the location at the eastern edge of the forest zone: this would have facilitated an easy contact with the Scythians/Sarmatians. The archaeological successor of the Milograd Culture, the Zarubintsy Culture, has archaeological ties towards the west (in particular with the Przeworsk Culture) may represent the first stage of contact with Proto-Germanic tribes.

LeBrok
16-06-12, 07:13
reasonnable
but an ununderstandable ancient foreign name can be given a phonetically close false "correspondant" in the language of a neighbouring people: venet->>wend- >> polish wendr- is finally possible (analogy error) - it occurred more than a time!
I red no long ago (Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)
for archeology and some Y-DNA (R-U152) I think to the Urnfields Culture that came from Central Europe into S-W and W Poland just before or at the very beginning the Iron Age and that appears linked in some aspects to Eastern Italic people and Celts - if the linguistic link is genuine, I see no link between first Wends and Baltic or Slavic people -

I'm sympathetic with an idea that Venedi were most likely of Celtic origin, or even Italic. We have some Celtic toponims and town names in Poland, plus it would explain big Roman speaking population around this area and in Balkans, vlahs. My understanding is that Italics or Celtics would switch to Latin faster, unlike others, Greeks and Albanians.
Even if Celts/Venedi showed up in early Iron age around Vistula, they surely got germanized at beginning of first millennium AD, by east Germans then by Goths, and name Venedi is never mentioned again. There is a lack of any record of Venedi tribe movement at time of germanic migration west around 500CE
If somehow they stayed in the area they would have gotten slavonized, as anything was, from Volga to Elbe rivers, after Slavic expansion.
As I mentioned before, there is some record of Celtic presence around Vistula region, and Venedi would fulfil this purpose very well.


(Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)


I don't think Vistula Venedi left anything written to come to this conclusion. I guess if Venedi were talking in any of Italics, that would be quickly recognized by Roman travelers, traders, historians or generals who came in contact with them.

zanipolo
16-06-12, 09:17
first off, which is poland Venedi language akin to North east italy veneti ?

next - In Feb 2012 isogg released a new marker for thr R1a1a group , this was L1029. The polish historians and others claim that this marker along with M-458 is the venedi marker ( others say Lugii tribe marker) . The current discussion is that the venedi marker is R1a M458+ L1029+ and a negative L206 ( slavic marker)

the site below has indicated the people this marker matches for all of europe
http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/item-snp/1234/

the SNP indicating no L206 or a neagtive L206 show this as non-slavic . Apparantly you cannot have a postive L1029 and a postive L206

The marker first appeared around 700BC which matches the lusitan culture

ISOGG call it R1a1a1g1c L1029

Yetos
16-06-12, 14:44
My opinion is that Jordanes is not particularly reliable, because his early history of the Goths is interwoven with bits from Greek mythology, amongst other, utterly implausible statements, some which may be based on a confusion between the Getae and the Goths. Also to my knowledge, the (old) Prussians are not mentioned in any of the old sources, but in his Geography, Ptolemy mentions two other Baltic tribes, namely the Galindians and the Sudovians.

I agree about Jordanes
to my personal view Jordanes uses imagination to connect some geographical and historical data, there are parts that are reliable and parts that are not.
Jordanes alone is not a good base for search , but if you compare Jordanes with others then you can certify sources.

Now about Getae or Gets with Goths
Historically we have connection from Strabo
Strabo names Getae tribes like Βησιοι (Visi) with Balkans wich we all know that later were the Visigoths (Visigetaes?)
we know that in Roman times times, Germanic or para-germanic speaking tribes are mention to live in the North-East parts of Balkans even to East Europe.
Even in Duridanov's work, no matter he wants to connect the Thracian with modern Slavic, the vocabulary connection is obviously a link among minor asian languages and Germanic and part of it exist 'mutated' in modern Greek (Germanic or para-Germanic words that exist in Modern Greek is unexplained historically)
Personally I believe that Getae are the Fathers of the Goths which moved West as Visi Ostro (Austr-Gets or Ostria-Gets) and become fully Germanized much later.
Getae leave their lands either due to Roman empire decline, either as Strong armies or mercenairies, either due to the pressure of the incoming Hun-Turkic-Avar population in East-Central Europe.


it is obvious historically, (might even in genetics) that in decline of Roman empire Germanic or para-Germanic or Thracian tribes moved West which later assimilated and today most of them exist with other names or even as other ethnicities (Visigoths in Spain and Vandals in Tynesia)

MOESAN
16-06-12, 18:56
I don't think Vistula Venedi left anything written to come to this conclusion. I guess if Venedi were talking in any of Italics, that would be quickly recognized by Roman travelers, traders, historians or generals who came in contact with them.[/QUOTE]

I confess I did not check the avalaiblity of this affirmation I have in mind - maybe it was as sometimes an attempt to link toponymy to a given culture and a time, that can be a sport and not too well supported by reality - I remember somones found (or believed have found) links between "lusacian" rivers names and illyrian language... perhaps it is dead science nowaday ??? as other conclusion of the 30's 50's -
Sergent seams saying old venetian (veneti) and northern languages of Croatia wasakin to a kind of italic- Iam not sure he said it was a middle position language between italic and illyrian, but I have no mean to verify it -

MOESAN
16-06-12, 21:42
first off, which is poland Venedi language akin to North east italy veneti ?

next - In Feb 2012 isogg released a new marker for thr R1a1a group , this was L1029. The polish historians and others claim that this marker along with M-458 is the venedi marker ( others say Lugii tribe marker) . The current discussion is that the venedi marker is R1a M458+ L1029+ and a negative L206 ( slavic marker)

the site below has indicated the people this marker matches for all of europe
http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/item-snp/1234/

the SNP indicating no L206 or a neagtive L206 show this as non-slavic . Apparantly you cannot have a postive L1029 and a postive L206

The marker first appeared around 700BC which matches the lusitan culture

ISOGG call it R1a1a1g1c L1029



I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+ that seams by the way more common than the "slavic" 1029- in this research / this 1029+ seams to me very broadly spred in Europe (Scandinavia, Gemany, Baltic and North-Slavic region, Italy even ...
nothing is opposed to its presence in and during Lusacian Culture: this last was at the fringes of more than an ethny according to someones, and if the first impulses seam came from Central Europe, with a previous non-incineration BUT inhumation phase (under tumuli) the presence of an autochtonous population is very possible - I am not sure at all the Y-R1a was the intrusive and dynamic element, rather a substrate one - so this SNP echoes some local 'corded' descendants people to me (effectively possible ancestors of baltic speaking future peoples -
the problem of veneti/Venedi/Wend reality is still there - were they for the most autochtones descendants or for the most celtic or italic centum I-E intrusive descendants - are the italy Veneti came from Baltis shores or Baltic Veneti came from Italy (I prefer saying: from a future Pannonia-N-Croatia region? I have not already the answer.

MOESAN
16-06-12, 21:54
[QUOTE=zanipolo;396158]

Bor's chapter, "Similarity of the Slovene, Latvian, and Breton Words."5 The reviewer has also carried out the homework for this independently,6 inducing him to inevitable concurrence with Bor's results. The significance of Bor's discovery of a layer of Slavic loanwords in Breton cannot bc overstated. Their presence clarifies the comments of Julius Caesar's De Bello Gallico. "The Veneti are by far the strongest tribe on this coast .. They possess the most powerful fleet with which they sail as far as Britain. . ."7 Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Ptolemy, and Casius Dio also refer to the Veneti in Gaul (Armorica). Bor's recovery of these Slavic lexical loans in Breton necessitates our reexamination of certain aspects of universally accepted academic theory as exemplified by the following definition: VENETI ... A Celtic people in the northwest of Gallia Celtica ... In the winter of 57 B.C., they took up arms against the Romans, and in 56 were decisively defeated in a naval engagement."8 Bor has clearly established the existence of Slavic loans in Breton and this fact strongly suggests that prior to the arrival in Armorica of the Brythonic (Insular P-Celtic) speaking refugees fleeing the Saxon invasions of South Britain


I agree with you that these affirmations are very amazing and that some scholars are governed by curious aims -
on another way, I am breton speaker and I would be very glad to see the arguments in favor of breton loans to slavic or baltic languages - it is to say: BRETON words nEVER found in irish gaelic or in welsh AND SHOWING A BALTIC OR SLAVIC STREAM INTO BRETON LANGUAGE, apart the evident links between all the I-E languages... or maybe I have misunderstood some phrases?
good night

Taranis
16-06-12, 22:11
Regarding LeBrok,

I think there's two different issues here: the first is the ethnic identity of the relevant archaeological cultures that predate those that are clearly identifiable because they effectively occur in historic periods (ie. the Przeworsk Culture): the Lusatian Culture and the Pomeranian Culture. The idea that the Lusatian Culture was somehow "Celtic" (or otherwise, speaking a Centum language) is sensible in so far as that the culture is an outgrowth of the Urnfield Culture, and that other successor cultures of Urnfield (the Hallstatt and Golasecca cultures) are usually thought to have been Celtic. As for the identity of the succeeding Pomeranian Culture, it's hard to say in my opinion: I do not think that it was Germanic because it has no real links/continuity with the Nordic Bronze Age or the Jastorf Culture (which are usually thought to represent the Proto-Germanic peoples), unlike it's successors, which fall into the historic period.

The second is the question about the Baltic Veneti themselves: what do we know about them? Very little. The main sources are indeed Tacitus and Ptolemy. Tacitus, as I mentioned before, mentions them as one of the three tribes (the other two being the Bastarnae and the Fenni) that he places at the eastern edge of Germania. Some details about the Veneti can be inferred by their comparison with these other tribes:

- Tacitus says that the Bastarnae speak a Germanic language, from which we can infer that the other two (the Veneti and the Fenni) do not.

- Tacitus describes the Veneti as culturally somewhat similar to the Sarmatians, but living in fixed houses like the Germanic peoples (unlike the nomadic Sarmatians).

Beyond that, we have very little, and I find an ethnic ascription based on this highly speculative in any case. Is it possible that there was a link with the earlier Pomeranian or Lusatian Cultures? Perhaps. Can we prove it? I do not see how.

MOESAN
16-06-12, 22:17
I add the H.HUBERT linkage of some Lusacian rivers or toponymic names to a supposed illyrian language takes a new youth when we consider as scholars do now that "illyrian" previous texts was indeed a mixture of para-italic-venetic (present day N-Yougoslavia-S-Italy) texts with true (more southern) illyrian texts - it could prove the link Lusace-S-Italic and even the link italic-venetic-urnfields in Lusace Culture: all the way, Lusace region knew a tumuli-inhumations culture before the incineration-Urnfield culture: all of them came from South in W-Poland, apparently - maybe 2 waves or only one (celtic?) with later acculturation (italic mod of U-F?) - I do not know -
I have no more the "Les Celtes" of H. Hubert and I would be glad to check the link: Lusacian >< rivers names because it could change the stream: rivers take commonly names from previous populations: it could prove that Veneti of Italy-Pannonia came from North-Central Europe if not from Baltic Europe - it echoes the B. Sergent's hypothesis about a late proto-italic-proto-slavic contacts after proto-celtic><proto-italic separation someplace in Europe! these proto-italic languages could have been closer to future venetic languages: all bets -

MOESAN
16-06-12, 22:22
sorry: for para-italic-venetic I thought: N-Yougoslavia-NE Italy

zanipolo
16-06-12, 23:45
I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+ that seams by the way more common than the "slavic" 1029- in this research / this 1029+ seams to me very broadly spred in Europe (Scandinavia, Gemany, Baltic and North-Slavic region, Italy even ...
nothing is opposed to its presence in and during Lusacian Culture: this last was at the fringes of more than an ethny according to someones, and if the first impulses seam came from Central Europe, with a previous non-incineration BUT inhumation phase (under tumuli) the presence of an autochtonous population is very possible - I am not sure at all the Y-R1a was the intrusive and dynamic element, rather a substrate one - so this SNP echoes some local 'corded' descendants people to me (effectively possible ancestors of baltic speaking future peoples -
the problem of veneti/Venedi/Wend reality is still there - were they for the most autochtones descendants or for the most celtic or italic centum I-E intrusive descendants - are the italy Veneti came from Baltis shores or Baltic Veneti came from Italy (I prefer saying: from a future Pannonia-N-Croatia region? I have not already the answer.

I cannot comment on the genetics because its only a february 2012 find.
In regards to the 3 "veneti", the oldest known archeological finds which are dated
1 - Adriatic Veneti 1025 BC
2- Baltic Veneti 380 BC
3 - Armorica Veneti 100BC

I find it more pausible that the adriatic veneti are not linked with the baltic veneti and the only know link is through the amber trade. This trade is IMO only a trade based on a relay system, where the aestii traded to the venedi who traded it to the goths, then they to the Osi, then they to illyrians then to the adriatic veneti.
But finds also have a trade route for jutland amber from Denmark down the elbe to eventually to the adriatic veneti.

There is no genetic link between the adriatic and baltic veneti .

I gave my to scenarios of the adriatic venetic and both scenarios indicated a starting place of western pannonia around 1250BC - where did they arrive from ? - either anatolia or thuringia

zanipolo
16-06-12, 23:55
Regarding LeBrok,

I think there's two different issues here: the first is the ethnic identity of the relevant archaeological cultures that predate those that are clearly identifiable because they effectively occur in historic periods (ie. the Przeworsk Culture): the Lusatian Culture and the Pomeranian Culture. The idea that the Lusatian Culture was somehow "Celtic" (or otherwise, speaking a Centum language) is sensible in so far as that the culture is an outgrowth of the Urnfield Culture, and that other successor cultures of Urnfield (the Hallstatt and Golasecca cultures) are usually thought to have been Celtic. As for the identity of the succeeding Pomeranian Culture, it's hard to say in my opinion: I do not think that it was Germanic because it has no real links/continuity with the Nordic Bronze Age or the Jastorf Culture (which are usually thought to represent the Proto-Germanic peoples), unlike it's successors, which fall into the historic period.

The second is the question about the Baltic Veneti themselves: what do we know about them? Very little. The main sources are indeed Tacitus and Ptolemy. Tacitus, as I mentioned before, mentions them as one of the three tribes (the other two being the Bastarnae and the Fenni) that he places at the eastern edge of Germania. Some details about the Veneti can be inferred by their comparison with these other tribes:

- Tacitus says that the Bastarnae speak a Germanic language, from which we can infer that the other two (the Veneti and the Fenni) do not.

- Tacitus describes the Veneti as culturally somewhat similar to the Sarmatians, but living in fixed houses like the Germanic peoples (unlike the nomadic Sarmatians).

Beyond that, we have very little, and I find an ethnic ascription based on this highly speculative in any case. Is it possible that there was a link with the earlier Pomeranian or Lusatian Cultures? Perhaps. Can we prove it? I do not see how.

i agree with this except that according to the book (2004) the spring of the goths, it states that pommeranian culture was Gothic.


Since Pytheas is the only historian to visit the baltic and he sailed from denmark to estonia. I see there might be a confusion with tacitus and ptolemy on how they interpreted Pytheas. pytheas wrote the names of peoples from east to west even though he sailed west to east ( he must of noted them on his return journey) , he also noted NO armorica veneti prior to reaching the baltic sea.
Pytheas sailed about 150 years prior to Tacitus script.
Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber) is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber) by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

he states
Elattova de eunh vemetai, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

translated
Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes. Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.

If this is true then the original goths would have been a baltic people who became germanized after colonizing southern sweden and gotland.
Note- they did find gothic graves in Osel island of latvia

Yetos
17-06-12, 01:32
Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

All I can give you for answer is the names like Βενετια Venetia exist in Greek and Byzantine girl names and means blue eye girl,
in Justinianus times we find the Veneti as the Blue athletic club, (Hooligans of the Blue team)
the word Venice in Greek Βενετια means Blue city.
so except the IE root of venedi maybe we should check about about a 'blue' culture? eye colour or a typical dress etc

Yetos
17-06-12, 02:50
well every body here is stuck with the theory that Goths are not Getae,

it seems like Goths are the Getae a para-Germanic tribe which later became fully Germanic

except the Visii who become Visigoths
except the ostria-Getae who become Auster-Goths or Ostrogoths
we also have the Wends
lets see
W in Germanic languages sometimes is sounded like V like westfallen Weiss West etc
if i put the V instead of w i Get Vends but some analyze it as Veneti - Venice
but could it be another?
now lets see a common sound the Wand -Vand and lets use another IE ending the -eli - ελοι instead of -eti
then we get the Vandeli ->Vandals
now lets see if Historically can be truth

Przeworsk culture

I just wonder Przeworsk culture in extended to Vistula river
Przeworsk culture could it be the Vandals culture?
I mean we see the connection of what Pytheas writes and we know where Vandals staring point is,
there is also a theory that connects Slavs with Wends
But in Ptolemy their name is not Wends but Ouenedai Ουενεδαι
Ouen -wuen - wienn?

now lets see some
according History except Geate like Visi and Ostro in Balkans another para-Germanic tribe like the Bastarnae is known from ancient Greeks as allies of Makedonia Diadochi
Bastarnae are considered to be connected with Zarubintsy culture next to prezeworsk culture and seems both are a middle culture among Pommeranian, Danubian La Tene, and Dacian-Getan

Now back to Veneti, in Swedish language Vandals they are named as Vend-els *Wend-els similar in Danish etc

now the Vandalic Language is still under discuss,
But if we notice that Zarubintsy culture was a para-Germanic as VisiGoths etc then we surely have a linguistic family that Herodotus described as Thracian Dialect, The Getan, a not Clear Germanic, that is lost, Spoken even at Crimea and only its west parts 'survived' in Deutsh-en Gothic (Dacian Getic?) but surely took their changes over time and asimilation

Taranis
17-06-12, 11:07
Yetos, it's pretty clear that the Getae and the Goths were very distinct people. Sources like Pliny and Strabo place them consistently along the Danube as well as the shore of the Black Sea (notably, the so-called "Tyragetae"), and there's no reason to assume that they were Germanic in any way. In contrast, the Goths ("Gothones" or "Guthones") were placed by Ptolemy along the east bank of the Vistula river. Tacitus also places the Goths clearly somewhere in the eastern periphery of Germania, which matches that location. The only person to ever draw a connection between the Getae and the Goths was Jordanes, which, for the reasons I previously described, cannot be treated as a particularly reliable source.

I have to add that I find it a little remarkable that this keeps popping up. If one uses sources other than Jordanes, it's pretty clear that there is no connection.

zanipolo
17-06-12, 12:59
yetos,
I agree with taranis, I think the getae are thracian living in the northern eastern part of thracian people and directly noth of the where the germanic bastanae...
The gepids and the goths are related, both around the vistula river

zanipolo
17-06-12, 13:07
Moesan,
The only genetic marker which fits the Adriatic, Armorica and Baltic Veneti areas is I1 M253 ( although I have not checked the subclades)
this marker in polish sites is referred to the royal Masovian marker. It is also in denmark, sweden and Norway.
Masovia ( mazovia) only became polish in 1070AD when the pushed out the west-baltic prussians. Thats as far as the poles got until the teutonic knights arrived 200 years later to conquer the baltic prussians after more than 60 years of warfare.

In my opinion it is a nordic marker - unsure who, vandal, goth or ???

zanipolo
17-06-12, 13:10
All I can give you for answer is the names like Βενετια Venetia exist in Greek and Byzantine girl names and means blue eye girl,
in Justinianus times we find the Veneti as the Blue athletic club, (Hooligans of the Blue team)
the word Venice in Greek Βενετια means Blue city.
so except the IE root of venedi maybe we should check about about a 'blue' culture? eye colour or a typical dress etc

you forgot about, the adriatic veneti
-they got the Blue quarter in Byzantine, while the genoese got the White
-The current "national" colours of the Veneti are Blue and gold

Yetos
17-06-12, 17:27
you forgot about, the adriatic veneti
-they got the Blue quarter in Byzantine, while the genoese got the White
-The current "national" colours of the Veneti are Blue and gold

my purpose is to give an alternative, or an extra field of search,
not to certify a target of search,
I might be wrong, but I might be wright,

Yetos
17-06-12, 17:41
yetos,
I agree with taranis, I think the getae are thracian living in the northern eastern part of thracian people and directly noth of the where the germanic bastanae...
The gepids and the goths are related, both around the vistula river

My view is that Thracian is the mother of All Baltic Germanic and with Scythian and Turkic mother of Slavic,
I believe that Germanic is an evolution of Gothic, who are evolution of Getan who are evolution of Thracian,
It is not only the similar sounds of national and tribal names, but also the Historical moves of Germanic and para Germanic tribes to west, all about the same times, like they were after something, or runaway from something.

Taranis
18-06-12, 12:38
My view is that Thracian is the mother of All Baltic Germanic and with Scythian and Turkic mother of Slavic,
I believe that Germanic is an evolution of Gothic, who are evolution of Getan who are evolution of Thracian,
It is not only the similar sounds of national and tribal names, but also the Historical moves of Germanic and para Germanic tribes to west, all about the same times, like they were after something, or runaway from something.

:43:

What? Yetos, no offense to you, but I do not understand in the slightest how, after being here for such a relatively long time, and with substantial exposure (both here and likely elsewhere) to information about genetics, about languages and about archaeology, you could believe such completely outlandish ideas that have no footing in reality. Because it stands in complete opposition to the picture that archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and indeed historical sources of Antiquity tell us.

Yetos
18-06-12, 18:46
:43:

What? Yetos, no offense to you, but I do not understand in the slightest how, after being here for such a relatively long time, and with substantial exposure (both here and likely elsewhere) to information about genetics, about languages and about archaeology, you could believe such completely outlandish ideas that have no footing in reality. Because it stands in complete opposition to the picture that archaeology, genetics, linguistics, and indeed historical sources of Antiquity tell us.

1) Maybe because I believe in the agricultural Hypothsesis?
2) How many evidences we have that modern Germanic is not an evolution of an older language? like Greek Celtic Italian etc
3) how certain we are that Kurgan burial was not an agricultural founded by Anatolians

at least, make your self a break, and think
if IE came from the East according the Kurgan,
then they left marks and also they carried knowledge with them,
So where Thracians came from? East or South?
cause if the answer is South, then surely you must agree with me,
But if the answer is East, then surely Germanic Languages are new to West Europe and their homeland is Baltic Pomerania and zarubintsy

Taranis
18-06-12, 19:04
1) Maybe because I believe in the agricultural Hypothsesis?
2) How many evidences we have that modern Germanic is not an evolution of an older language? like Greek Celtic Italian etc
3) how certain we are that Kurgan burial was not an agricultural founded by Anatolians

at least, make your self a break, and think
if IE came from the East according the Kurgan,
then they left marks and also they carried knowledge with them,
So where Thracians came from? East or South?
cause if the answer is South, then surely you must agree with me,

Yetos, you're completely confusing things there:

1) You probably mean the Anatolian Hypothesis. It is completely irrelevant in this context. The Anatolian Hypothesis assumes that the Indo-European languages spread during the Neolithic with the spread of agriculture. In no way the Anatolian Hypothesis invalidates the idea of a Proto-Germanic homeland, it merely assumes that the original branching of the Indo-European languages was earlier. The consequence, of course, in the genetic context, would be that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were bearers of Haplogroup G2, and not R1a or R1b, and that Ötzi very likely would have already been a speaker of an Indo-European language. But, this thread, and this discussion about the Veneti is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the origin of the Indo-Europeans because we are talking about the iron age, thousands of years later (regardless of the question wether the Kurgan hypothesis or the Anatolian hypothesis is correct). We are talking about events that occured simultaneously to Greek or Roman written history.

2) You're assuming that Thracian (a Satem languages) somehow "transmuted" (against what in linguistics is deemed possible, since sound laws have no memories) into Proto-Germanic (a Centum language) and then made in a massive migration (which archaeology never recorded) from the mouth of the Danube to northern Germany and Scandinavia. Don't you see how impossible it is what you are proposing?

3) this question is completely irrelevant. No matter what scenario on the origin of the Indo-Europeans is correct, it doesn't change that the Jastorf Culture or the Nordic Bronze Age are the most likely candidates for the speakers of Proto-Germanic.


But if the answer is East, then surely Germanic Languages are new to West Europe and their homeland is Baltic Pomerania and zarubintsy

For your information, the Zarubintsy Culture existed simultaneous to the time as the wars between Rome and Carthage occured. Rome's first encounter with Germanic tribes was in the late 2nd century BC (the Cimbri and Teutones), and then more intensely during the Gallic Wars (mid 1st century BC).

Yetos
18-06-12, 19:47
Yetos, you're completely confusing things there:

1) You probably mean the Anatolian Hypothesis. It is completely irrelevant in this context. The Anatolian Hypothesis assumes that the Indo-European languages spread during the Neolithic with the spread of agriculture. In no way the Anatolian Hypothesis invalidates the idea of a Proto-Germanic homeland, it merely assumes that the original branching of the Indo-European languages was earlier. The consequence, of course, in the genetic context, would be that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were bearers of Haplogroup G2, and not R1a or R1b, and that Ötzi very likely would have already been a speaker of an Indo-European language. But, this thread, and this discussion about the Veneti is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the origin of the Indo-Europeans because we are talking about the iron age, thousands of years later (regardless of the question wether the Kurgan hypothesis or the Anatolian hypothesis is correct). We are talking about events that occured simultaneously to Greek or Roman written history.

2) You're assuming that Thracian (a Satem languages) somehow "transmuted" (against what in linguistics is deemed possible, since sound laws have no memories) into Proto-Germanic (a Centum language) and then made in a massive migration (which archaeology never recorded) from the mouth of the Danube to northern Germany and Scandinavia. Don't you see how impossible it is what you are proposing?

3) this question is completely irrelevant. No matter what scenario on the origin of the Indo-Europeans is correct, it doesn't change that the Jastorf Culture or the Nordic Bronze Age are the most likely candidates for the speakers of Proto-Germanic.

hmm, if I take the satem-centum well you are maybe weight,
but when did this happened?
My point is that Thracian become Satem when Scythians enter minor Scythia,
on the other hand if I looj the duridanov;s work and compaire it with the Thracian remnants in Greek and in Germanic Dialects I see that we have more centum sounds in Greek than in Germanic, (sgar, καρφ, sharp)
The lack of knowledge in Germanic and Thracian at the time of Troyan wars is an obstackle but the archaiology gives proto or para-Germanic population east of Vistula and North of surely Getan, and from Linguistic we even have Gothic in Crimea, just watch in south Getan in midle Vandal and bastanae and in Norh Guton,
could the satemization of Thracian took place when Scythian enter Scythia minor?

when we check the cultures we see that Daci-Getan culture is not connected with a Pommeranian one (Gothic-germanic spaeking), but when we check the midlle ones prezeworsky and the next we see a balance among la Tene and Pomeranian and Getan (Vandals-Bastanae, Germanic speaking)
so could Thracian and Gothic be one language that split to Satem and Centum after troyan wars, especially when Scythians come near them?

if yes then surely we can explain why south Thracian accept so easy the Slavic and North Gothic turn a more Germanic.

besides we recogn Aesti as Esthonians but could they been the Austi (auster-goths?)


you also gave an answer about 2nd century known Germanic speaking places.
you also see that zarubintsy culture was Germanic or para-Germanic speaking, a culture next to the Getae.

now you even notice that all Germanic or para-Germanic, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Teutones moved West,
so where is the Thracian R1a and R1b that was found in Thracian tombs in Bulgaria?
the heart of once Thracian-Getan today have less R1a and R1b than Greece,
so? did it moved North and West at the known times of the above?
was it exterminate by the same diseases that also Greece suffered?
was it exterminate by Christians like the Greek?
or the Slavic and Bulgarian entrance was not so 'peacefull'


Ok the thread is about Wends so need to expand more, you may delete our posting conversation, if you think is not suitable,

PS
Vandalic language is still under discuss of how Germanic it was, and some claim even that was Slavic, could it been para-gothic or para-getan?

zanipolo
19-06-12, 12:27
Another genetic marker claiming the venedi is N1C1 M-178 declared in russian and lithuaian scripts. Although the lithuanians say its more ancient Livonian , which apparently as a language has disappeared.

How many more genetic studies are required.

Could genetic really play a part in finding out

zanipolo
19-06-12, 21:35
I have been looking at trying to find the venetic isoglosses in europe and there are a lot of papers, but really none around the baltic sea except this small reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dr._C.S._Lewis-Barrie,_Ph.D.

modern Venetian has mi as representing I and me

The Baltic connection for venetic/venedic isoglosses always link it to a finnic-ugric or livonion/curionian grouping which has some influence in southwest Finland


I believe there is a gothic infleuence as the Goths "surronded " the venedi on all sides except the east which where the Aestii people

zanipolo
20-06-12, 08:34
More from dr. s barrie

I have interpreted ALL COMPLETE INSCRIPTIONS I could find, and all the results in an Estonianized form that produces grammatical parallels (altho you have to know Estonian and FInnish to really see it), and all the results make total sense, and are not absurd like the traditional interpretations not to mention the Slovenian ones which are so absurd even archeologists dismiss them outright. You criticize my 'simple Estonian' characterization. What I mean by that,I used common Estonian, which endures a long time: what is taught to children is much older than most dictionary modern Estonian. By contrast the Slovenians searched for words high and low through tens of thousands of words in all the Slavic and even Balt languages. Fact is ancient langauges had relatively small vocabularies because they were spoken in context and not separate from the speaker like literary language. You say Estonian did not even exist. Well modern Estonian didn't, but the Aestii language did, and in my book I demonstrate that the Aestii language was the same as the Venedi spoken of by the Greeks and that the Aestii was the Suebic name for them. It turns out to mean 'buyers' as that was what was happening at the mouth of the Vistula - there was a trade center there. But I recognize the problem of using modern language to translate an ancient one. Thus I was very careful about it. I crossreferenced Estonian word choices with Finnish, as if the stem existed in both the probability of the stem existing at the time of the Veneti was high. I also used other techniques to in effect do comparative linguistics on the fly. Fact is western Finnic languages are instinct, and so it is now impossible to reconstruct in whole the languages of the south Baltic. So I did NOT use any Estonian that seemed to be new. Archeology and history also helps support the theory. Archeology shows amber coming down from two origins that can be seen to have had Finnic language and classic Greek and Latin writers have identified the Veneti as their source of amber.

from Tacticus
(b) Tacitus (ca. A.D. 100), the prominent Roman historian, in his treatise de situ, moribus et populis Germaniae c. XLIII. writes:

"Trans Lygios Gothones regnantur, paullo jam adductius, quam ceterae Germannorum gentes, nondum tamen supra libertatem. Protimus deinde ab Oceano Rugii, et Lemovii:"

Meaning: "Beyond the Lygians reign the Gothones, who are more united (mobilized) than other Germanic tribes, yet are enjoying greater freedom. Near by the Ocean live Rugians (1) (http://www.northvegr.org/secondary%20sources/germanic%20studies/guthones/001.html#bottom1), and Livonians (2) (http://www.northvegr.org/secondary%20sources/germanic%20studies/guthones/001.html#bottom2):"


We know the rugii tribe lived in eastern Pommerania, above states the venedi are Livonians

piero
21-06-12, 14:51
I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+

This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).

zanipolo
21-06-12, 19:51
This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).

That is the question as you say because true slavs do not have the L1029+ marker.

Also the Kursenieki have this marker and their ancient language ranged from danzig to riga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki
They where called also curonions, and their capital was the modern town named Ventspils
Wynda or Ventava (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ventava&action=edit&redlink=1) was the land around the mouth of the river Venta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venta), today in the district of Ventspils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventspils).
These Curonians originated from Kven a land in southern Finland

Culture of the Curonians


Kunda culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunda_culture)


Narva culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture)


Corded Ware culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture)


Amber Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road) and Aesti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti)


Baltic Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Finns): Livonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_people), Vends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends)


Latgalians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latgalians), Curonians, Selonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selonians), Semigallians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semigallians)




Its an easy thing for Romans to call unknown people living along the coast in which they do not know of as Venetus - the Roman colour for the Sea.
This is all hypothetical , but we all know only 1 historian actually visited the Baltic sea and he noted the Venedi in modern day nation of Latvia.
All scholars today claim a different genetic marker for the Venedi, but this marker, of only 3 months of age ( L1029+) should reveal something else in the future


The only link between the Venedi of the baltic with the Veneti of the Adriatic was the amber road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

MOESAN
22-06-12, 23:24
interesting but what is your aim there? what is your "party"?
there are some threads here and there spoiled by boring childish-magic-linguistic trying to prove what is not possible to prove - I hope you are telling us: all that proves only indo-european old links with some loanwords (as surely 'bok' in slavic, from germanic) - I can affirm you that the verb 'to be' in present day iranish, spite the long evolution, shows evident links with breton conjugaison for the ending (at the past, it is truly magic: even the stem is "breton": bud /bood/ : welsh 'bod', S-bret- 'boud' (N-bret- 'bezañ' << 'bed-am'
so if I should be someones, I could affirm THE BRETONS ARE A OFFSPRING OF IRANIANS OR OLD PERSES
thanks for the precision and do not take offense because I did not understand what was your purpose by posting this
good night

zanipolo
22-06-12, 23:44
interesting but what is your aim there? what is your "party"?
there are some threads here and there spoiled by boring childish-magic-linguistic trying to prove what is not possible to prove - I hope you are telling us: all that proves only indo-european old links with some loanwords (as surely 'bok' in slavic, from germanic) - I can affirm you that the verb 'to be' in present day iranish, spite the long evolution, shows evident links with breton conjugaison for the ending (at the past, it is truly magic: even the stem is "breton": bud /bood/ : welsh 'bod', S-bret- 'boud' (N-bret- 'bezañ' << 'bed-am'
so if I should be someones, I could affirm THE BRETONS ARE A OFFSPRING OF IRANIANS OR OLD PERSES
thanks for the precision and do not take offense because I did not understand what was your purpose by posting this
good night

Since I know little of the armorica veneti and you are a breton, maybe you can enlighten me to the first time it was named Veneti. My only knowledge of it is dated to around the year 100BC.

The other old link which I read was that the Phoenicians from cadiz traded with the brittany veneti for TIN, which these veneti obtained from Cornwall and Wales.

There is a genetic marker I provided in previous posts which link some of the Armorica veneti with te Baltic venedi


In regards to offsprings of the persians, I read it was the Medes of persia, the same people that are said to be in western Veneto i.e, between the cities of Vicenza and Verona

MOESAN
24-06-12, 00:08
Since I know little of the armorica veneti and you are a breton, maybe you can enlighten me to the first time it was named Veneti. My only knowledge of it is dated to around the year 100BC.

The other old link which I read was that the Phoenicians from cadiz traded with the brittany veneti for TIN, which these veneti obtained from Cornwall and Wales.

There is a genetic marker I provided in previous posts which link some of the Armorica veneti with te Baltic venedi


In regards to offsprings of the persians, I read it was the Medes of persia, the same people that are said to be in western Veneto i.e, between the cities of Vicenza and Verona

partial answer (sorry for my english: I 'll do my better)
I do not think that "veneti" is a latin word for a "came by sea" people - these names are endonymes, not exonymes - 'ven' is a linguistic element surely of I-E origin but I do not know the meaning, but it could have been common enough among more thant a family of I-Ean language - and yet, are you absolutely sure that 'venet-' and 'vent-' (Venta, Ventava, Ventspils...) are the same word or root: it is just a possibility -
we need more -
Y-I1-M253 is a very poor "marker" because it is the basic SNP of all Y-I1 - Yes, I1 is a geographically nordic marker; culturally when we lack subgroups we can say it is frequent among firts determined germanic people and too among finnic people of Finnland (some coming from previous germanic small populations) - it could have been present among baltic and celtic people but at a very very low level - in Brittany where it does not go over the 8%, some of these Y-I1 came with Vikings around 880/936 (proxi) the low presence of an HG or SNP in two far countries on the margins can not be interpreted as a proof of cultural community of origins -
for Iranic or Persian, I gave this example for verb 'to be' ONLY TO SHOW that there is no tight link between breton and iranian language, only a far I-Ean link (Irish shows some ancient links to sanskritic, to push farther ) and to show that it is of no use putting series (sequels,) of examples linking some I-Ean "sons" of PIE - in every language we can find archaïc words or meanings that fell in abandon in the greater number of languages and that remind in some peripheric areas, in different families of derived I-Ean languages: everybody that studies dialects knows that - that does not prove by it a peculiar close link between the languages where we find them today -
the phoenician "lochness monster" is another thing - yes, Phoenicians got very far away and did trade with N-W Europe but i am not aware of stellements by them there on northern Atalntic shores - if you have some source about that, I would be glad knowing it) -
good evening

zanipolo
24-06-12, 00:22
partial answer (sorry for my english: I 'll do my better)
I do not think that "veneti" is a latin word for a "came by sea" people - these names are endonymes, not exonymes - 'ven' is a linguistic element surely of I-E origin but I do not know the meaning, but it could have been common enough among more thant a family of I-Ean language - and yet, are you absolutely sure that 'venet-' and 'vent-' (Venta, Ventava, Ventspils...) are the same word or root: it is just a possibility -
we need more -
Y-I1-M253 is a very poor "marker" because it is the basic SNP of all Y-I1 - Yes, I1 is a geographically nordic marker; culturally when we lack subgroups we can say it is frequent among firts determined germanic people and too among finnic people of Finnland (some coming from previous germanic small populations) - it could have been present among baltic and celtic people but at a very very low level - in Brittany where it does not go over the 8%, some of these Y-I1 came with Vikings around 880/936 (proxi) the low presence of an HG or SNP in two far countries on the margins can not be interpreted as a proof of cultural community of origins -
for Iranic or Persian, I gave this example for verb 'to be' ONLY TO SHOW that there is no tight link between breton and iranian language, only a far I-Ean link (Irish shows some ancient links to sanskritic, to push farther ) and to show that it is of no use putting series (sequels,) of examples linking some I-Ean "sons" of PIE - in every language we can find archaïc words or meanings that fell in abandon in the greater number of languages and that remind in some peripheric areas, in different families of derived I-Ean languages: everybody that studies dialects knows that - that does not prove by it a peculiar close link between the languages where we find them today -
the phoenician "lochness monster" is another thing - yes, Phoenicians got very far away and did trade with N-W Europe but i am not aware of stellements by them there on northern Atalntic shores - if you have some source about that, I would be glad knowing it) -
good evening

I agree that the name Ven.... appears in too many places, there are 5 tribes in the alps which begin with ven. But Venetus does mean the colour of the sea in Roman, then there is vende = to sell, venire = to come, venere = friday ( after norse goddess frigar) , venr = norse god, vinea ( venea)= grapevine etc etc

In regards to phoenicians, well the timeteam crew in England found untouched phoenican pottery in cornwall indicating a direct trade with phoenicians.
http://phoenicia.org/canaancornwall.html

In regards to all the veneti/venedi , I believe they are unrelated with each other, there languages are different ( even though only 1 Venetic is known ), their genetics are different ( even if we take minimal haplotype).

I still would like to know when the Veneti in armorica where named veneti

some say
Early studies of so-called "Amber Routes" were by sources quoted in messrs. de Navarro (Geographical Journal 1925) and Hawkes (8 th Myres Lecture = Pytheas: the Greeks and Ancient Europe 1975). They trace it through middle Europe to "caput Adria" (= head of the Adriatic Sea). Here were the Veneti and they in turn bring us to the origin of the name of the Veneti.

Across Europe are what philologists describe as Q-tongues in which a hard c/k/q-sound precedes that of p/b in closely related languages. Examples include Q-tongued Ionic Greek, as opposed to P-tongued Doric (esp. Attic) Greek; Q-tongued Venetic as oppsed to the other more usually P-tongued Illyrian; Q-tongued Latin, as opposed to the P-tongued Umbro/Oscan; Q-tongued Goidelic, as opposed to the other Celtic that is usually B/P-tongued.
Not only is Venetic the most westerly of the Illyrian languages but is also considered the most Celticised of the Illyrian tongues of mainly what are now Slovenia/Croatia/Serbia. With Veneti also seen as the name of a tribe of Celts of what was Gaul/is now France

Yetos
24-06-12, 11:12
I must repeat my shelf again,

1rst the Vistula Venedi,
2nd the adriatic Veneti
3rd the Austrian wienneti
4rth other possible Venedi

now the first description of Vistula Venedi is ουενεδαι ouenede, I am expecting someone who knows Grim's laws to turn back to a proto IE form but I am sure it will result as Ου to w, wenede, or wenede etc
letter w in Germanic languages sometimes sounds like V
by following the swedish and the Danish we see that Vistula Venedi are named as Vendels, so probably we speak about Vandals,

about adrias sea and Venice, I believe has nothing to do with the sound of W to V but is original V.
I believe that it is Venice and not Wenice. and I don't think that has something to do with Vistula Venedi,

about Austria and Wienn, well that is a temptation to challenge,
so Austria in Germanic languages means outer Kingdom, but how common is auster with offster and ostria (France au sounds as o, austria ->ostria)
Austria is connected with Ostrogoths migration (Oster, Auster-Goths or Ostrian-Goths?) but can it be connected also with Vandals? (Wendles)
the name Wienn is the only Germanic or central-North word that has 2n, that means that either something is missing either they were in conduct with southern Europe or minor Asia or Levant.
there are many possibilities about Wienn,
lets take the possibility that second n is a drop of d so wend drop to wenn, and the possibility that aesti lived next to Wends,
we see something similar if we connect the Aesti with Auster,
so if I conect Wends with Vandals and and Ostrogoths we see that Wends were Germanic para-Germanic speaking
and if I also connect Aesti with Auster then surely I have Austria and Wienn as creation of Wends when the west amber road was established and become strong.
the above is just a thought, cause another theory connect Wienn with Γενντις Yienntish which means merchants, or new ones (kainoi)
But it can explain how today Austria change from Celtic or para-Celtic to Germanic.

about other possible veneti etc I don't know but I know that there where 4 amber roads
the ancient one was in Black sea in areas around today Romania Moldova and Ucraine, that after Makedonian rise drop and even exting
then at Roman times change to the today known as West amber road.
later a new road started when Serbs enter Balkans, with exit to Thessaloniki, (Thessaloniki, Nis-Kossovo-Pedge, Donav, Chechia-Bohemia or Wienn)
and a 3rd road opened near the ancient one when Rus went down Volga river in Crimea, (Novgorod-Kiev-Crimea-Con/polis)
but we see no Wends in the other 2 roads, only in the West amber Road we see the above I wrote.

MOESAN
15-07-12, 17:19
I must repeat my shelf again,

1rst the Vistula Venedi,
2nd the adriatic Veneti
3rd the Austrian wienneti
4rth other possible Venedi

now the first description of Vistula Venedi is ουενεδαι ouenede, I am expecting someone who knows Grim's laws to turn back to a proto IE form but I am sure it will result as Ου to w, wenede, or wenede etc
letter w in Germanic languages sometimes sounds like V
by following the swedish and the Danish we see that Vistula Venedi are named as Vendels, so probably we speak about Vandals,

about adrias sea and Venice, I believe has nothing to do with the sound of W to V but is original V.
I believe that it is Venice and not Wenice. and I don't think that has something to do with Vistula Venedi,

about Austria and Wienn, well that is a temptation to challenge,
so Austria in Germanic languages means outer Kingdom, but how common is auster with offster and ostria (France au sounds as o, austria ->ostria)
Austria is connected with Ostrogoths migration (Oster, Auster-Goths or Ostrian-Goths?) but can it be connected also with Vandals? (Wendles)
the name Wienn is the only Germanic or central-North word that has 2n, that means that either something is missing either they were in conduct with southern Europe or minor Asia or Levant.
there are many possibilities about Wienn,
lets take the possibility that second n is a drop of d so wend drop to wenn, and the possibility that aesti lived next to Wends,
we see something similar if we connect the Aesti with Auster,
so if I conect Wends with Vandals and and Ostrogoths we see that Wends were Germanic para-Germanic speaking
and if I also connect Aesti with Auster then surely I have Austria and Wienn as creation of Wends when the west amber road was established and become strong.
the above is just a thought, cause another theory connect Wienn with Γενντις Yienntish which means merchants, or new ones (kainoi)
But it can explain how today Austria change from Celtic or para-Celtic to Germanic.

about other possible veneti etc I don't know but I know that there where 4 amber roads
the ancient one was in Black sea in areas around today Romania Moldova and Ucraine, that after Makedonian rise drop and even exting
then at Roman times change to the today known as West amber road.
later a new road started when Serbs enter Balkans, with exit to Thessaloniki, (Thessaloniki, Nis-Kossovo-Pedge, Donav, Chechia-Bohemia or Wienn)
and a 3rd road opened near the ancient one when Rus went down Volga river in Crimea, (Novgorod-Kiev-Crimea-Con/polis)
but we see no Wends in the other 2 roads, only in the West amber Road we see the above I wrote.

Yetos, you are making a bit of job trying to find new explanations of History and it is good to search further on and not always receive official dogmas, but I shall do some details remarks (no dramatic result) :
1- I do not see any good reason to affirm that the V- in the Italy Veneti was not an I-E /W-/ even if this /w/ pronunciation is not well proved -
2- for Wienna (and I am well aware of the difficulties when trying to establish a noun or name etymology) I will be very glad if I could have old forms before my eyes: the modern german 'ie' is a long vowells, that have been diphtongued in old times - even if tempting, we have to prove this evolution VEN(D) to VIENN...
3- the connexion (supposed) WIENN <> genntis/yienntis seams to me very phantasmagoric for I know about phonetic ties between germanic and hellenic concerning IE roots -
4- AESTI with 'ae' is far for me from 'AUST-'/'OST-' for evolutive phonetic reasons too -
what remains?
the possible connexion VANDALS/VENETI/VENEDI is not absurd (for I believe, VENETI/VENEDI of Western Poland could have been a branch of N-Adriatic VENETI, far cousins of italic Ombrians, passed in Poland through Bohemia or Moravia at the proto-lusacian times (Urnfields background, very possible if I do not a mess with dates) being these Veneti based previously between present day Hungaria and Austria, and ancient Pannonia (Croatia) - these proto-italic far relative people could have been germanized after in N-W Ploand?
but concerning the germanization of present day Austria, spite I lack some more knowledge, I see other causes of it, maybe posterior ones, putting in scene other Germanics tribes of western stocks, perhaps a cumulative effect along centuries?
just to castrate lice, as we say in breton!

Taranis
23-09-12, 12:48
I have re-opened this thread and moved the off-topic discussion that derailed this thread into a separate thread.

Finalise
24-09-12, 06:53
Since there was an Illyrian discussion in there, can I just add that vënd in Albanian means place/nation. I looked it up and they suggest a different root word for the wend slavs but theres always a possibility they could be wrong?

Tbh, I originally think proto-Albanian developed around the area of southern poland, east of germanic and celtic, and south of Balto-slavic. So approximately around the wend urheimat? Everyday, I keep finding more and more words in common with albanian and germanic words, i.e. english words of non-latin origin. Im assuming there is a lot non-latin words in common with slavic languages as well, but I dont speak any so I cant verify. My point is that these languages must have been in close proximity at some ancient time. Anyhow, thats it for my almost absurd speculation.

GloomyGonzales
25-09-12, 10:52
This is a question to everybody inside this thread:
which is in your opinion the subclade more rappresentative and more near to Lusatian Culture (1300 - 500 a. C.).

Lusatian Culture and so Lugii were R1a-M458 guys. They have come in Central Europe (Central and Southern Poland) something like ~4500 bp.

GloomyGonzales
25-09-12, 18:42
Its an easy thing for Romans to call unknown people living along the coast in which they do not know of as Venetus - the Roman colour for the Sea.
This is all hypothetical , but we all know only 1 historian actually visited the Baltic sea and he noted the Venedi in modern day nation of Latvia.
All scholars today claim a different genetic marker for the Venedi, but this marker, of only 3 months of age ( L1029+) should reveal something else in the future

The only link between the Venedi of the baltic with the Veneti of the Adriatic was the amber road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road


Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.

GloomyGonzales
25-09-12, 18:53
Yetos, it's pretty clear that the Getae and the Goths were very distinct people. Sources like Pliny and Strabo place them consistently along the Danube as well as the shore of the Black Sea (notably, the so-called "Tyragetae"), and there's no reason to assume that they were Germanic in any way. In contrast, the Goths ("Gothones" or "Guthones") were placed by Ptolemy along the east bank of the Vistula river. Tacitus also places the Goths clearly somewhere in the eastern periphery of Germania, which matches that location. The only person to ever draw a connection between the Getae and the Goths was Jordanes, which, for the reasons I previously described, cannot be treated as a particularly reliable source.

I have to add that I find it a little remarkable that this keeps popping up. If one uses sources other than Jordanes, it's pretty clear that there is no connection.

I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.

zanipolo
25-09-12, 23:50
I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.

Reading about the goths and their hereditary homeland, I find Ptolemy slightly wrong in saying that the goths lived on the west bank of the vistula, they lived on both sides of the vistula and their border was the Nogat river in the east and as far as the hinterpommern western border. East of the goths on the other side of the Nogat river was the Venedi which are baltic people and next to these venedi was the Aestii

As for Jordanes, he was a goth born in pannonia who wrote nothing originally but plagarised other writers and converted their findings to enforce the greatness of the Goths.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg/800px-Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg.png

Taranis
26-09-12, 19:57
I guess in fact Jordanes could be right. The point is when the Goths have become Germanic speaking before migration through Przeworsk or after. We do not know language of people that lived in Wielbark culture and I doubt that it was any Germanic language.

Where is the evidence for this, other than Jordanes' claims? You have to consider that we have a substantial corpus of Gothic (thanks to a 4th century bible translation), and there is no sign of such a (Dacian or whatever) substrate language.

Besides, do you think that Jordanes can really be trusted with such claims like the Goths fightings against the Egyptians, or allying themselves with Alexander the Great (I'm not making any of that up: Jordanes really wrote that)? I think not.

Also, why shouldn't the people of the Wielbark Culture have been Germanic? The culture is effectively contemporary to authors such as Pliny, Tacitus and Ptolemy, all which mention the Goths and place them into approximately that area (Ptolemy is also very specific about this, as I have mentioned).


Venedi (Vandal, Vandalii, Vyatechy, Wesi, Veneti, Antes and so on) were ancestors of Balts, Slavs and even some Germans. They lived on rivers (mostly in Central Europe: from the Rhine to the Dnepr) and sea shores (mostly Baltic and North sea) and were involved in trade by various routs by river and sea. The core of this group of people consisted of R1a-Z280 guys, that's why we have today so many clades donwstream from R1a-Z280 and so few from R1a-M458.
The most amazing thing is that even now so many years past we can see trade routes of R1a-Z280 covering all the Central Europe and connecting Northern and Southern Europe and Eastern and Western Europe.

What are you basing this on? How do you see a link here?

Vedun
18-05-14, 16:39
Phoenician (derives from Feniti, Veneti) god Baal was Slavic god Veles (Vaal or Vol; "wool" (Bull; Ox(Vol).

There are linguistic indications that even Akkadians have had some influence of old Slavic languages. Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga collected at least 500 words/similarities between Slovene-old Akkadian in a short dictionary. (In Slovene remained also strong similarities with the ancient Rig Vedic (Rek Vedski) Sanskrit); and Sanskrit shared similarities with Hittite. For example: Hittite city of Kadesh shares similarities with the Sanskrit term deza which means "country" and with Slovene dežela which means a "country". The similar form for this word is "Desh". So "Kad-desh" or "Country of Hittites". (and not a "holy land" as it is explained on Wikipedia.
Veneti were a multi ethnic, lingual people but I think that there were similarities between them over the "Amber road/path". From Scandinavia (if you've ever heard about the theory of "Troy (another Venetic people) in Scandinavia") to Paflagonia, Anatolia, Venetic territories.

gyms
18-05-14, 17:57
Alternate reality is usually a synonym for a parallel universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_universe_(fiction)).
It may also refer to:Alternative universe (fan fiction) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_universe_(fan_fiction)), fiction by fan authors that deliberately alters facts of the canonical universe they are writing about

"Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga ..." Engineer!

Vedun
18-05-14, 19:15
He was originally mechanical Engineer, later he studied linguistics ;)

Vedun
18-05-14, 19:35
Well... say that again...

This is the comparision between Slovene, Sanskrit, Egyptian and several other languages. You can still find several similarities. It seems that world was once much more "connected" than it is thought among the "linguistss"...
Translations

Sanskrit - Slovene Egyptian - Slovene
+harši+ - kruh =kšr= - kruh
+uni+ - oni, tisti (3. os edn) =na= - tisto, ono

*pištaka* - piškot, potica =pAt, pat= - potica, pecivo
*šrA* - cvreti =ašr= - cvretje
*biš* - bežati =bha= - beg
*duhitr* - hčer =hrdt= - hčer, otroci
*bubura* - voda (brbotanje) =babat= - izvir, jbr - potoček (žuborenje)
*muš* - muha =mht= - mušica
*mastu* - surovo maslo =mrht= - mast
*astha, šukti* - kost =ks= - kost
*kaš* - kašelj =khkht= - kašelj
*krna* - krma =hmw= - krma
*karman* - delo (garanje) =hmwj= - delo
*jabh*- spolnost =jb= - srce, ljubezen
*dru* - drveti =trr= - dirka
*tamas* - tema =tnmw= - tema
*sitja* - žito =swt= - žito
*tana* - nit =nd= - nit
*svastika* - zvezda =sħdw= - zvezda
*čihna* - znak, cihna =tĦn= – obelisk, stela, vrata, ibis
*nava* - novo +neua+ - novo =mwj= - novo
*AvAre* - branik +auari+ - stolp, straža =hwj=-varovanje
*mišra*- mešano +immijani+ - mešati =amj= - mešanje
*dura* - daleč +dalugašti+ - dolžina =dr= - oddaljiti
*anna* - hrana +adana+ - jed, hrana =hnw= - hrana
*tapas* - toplota +tapaša+ - vročica =taw= - vročina
*svapna* - spanec +šup+ - spati =šab= - slepo
*pari, sprš*- prijeti +epp, epAri+ - prijeti =šsp= - prijeti
* ruša, rakta* - rdeče +ešharuant+ - škrlatno =čr, jns= - rdeče
(=dšrt=- rdeča zemlja)

Egiptian-Slovenian similarities;

=čat=- posoda, čeber, shramba, čast (=sata= - kača, zemeljska površina, čast)
=gaga= - gaganje =hajt= - vhod, nebo
=Ħčn=- česen =Ħprt= - dogodek, prihodnost
=Hkrt= - okrasje =jħw= - jasli, hlev
=jnk= - moje, jaz =jrwt= - obred
=jt= - 1. ata, dedek, učitelj, predniki, 2. ječmen, žito
=jw= - ja, tako je, resnično ( je) =kħaw= - kotel
=kħs= - del, kos =kħkħ= - krhko
=qdrt= - kadilo =qrsw= - krsta
=mrħt= - mast =mrj= - marati, ljubiti, nasesti, hlapec =nhj= - nekaj =nsa= - nož
=ppn= - poper =prw= – vzhod, sprevod, vsota, pivo
=psjt= - posoda =rš= - vrh
=sawj=- podaljšanje, lastno, svoje =sawtj= - stražar
=sAď =- zdraviti =sbtj= - zid, obzidje
=sčp= - poskočiti =sh= - ustrašiti, ustrahovati
=spj= - gradnja ladje, ostanek, preostajanje, spajanje
=sĦAt= - zajec =swaš= - slaviti
=šbt= - buča =šďt= - testo
=snnw= - drugotno, rezerva, slama, seno
=šwšjt= - suša, izsušenost =šww= - slama
=tnmw= - tema =wan= - brin
=wAmt= - omejitev =wnħw= - venec
=wr= - lastovica, starosta , kralj, pomen, sila, velikost, mnogo, veliko =wršt= - stražarnica =wsrt= –ogenj, mučilni kol, vrat
=wsrw= - sila, veslo =ww= – val

=Awt= -posoda, žezlo, pastirska palica, drobnica ( ovca )
=babat= - izvir ( brbotanje) =babaw= -jama ( bavbav)
=bak= - delati, delavec ( bog, bik) =črb= - posoda ( črepinja)
=djw= – krilo, predpasnik ( odeja ) =ga= - petje, piskanje, naprava, čaplja (godba) =gwn= - vreča (gvant ) =ħbs= - oblačenje, obleka, pokrov ( jerbas )
=ħp= - hitenje, dlan, bik Apis ( hip)
=Ħast= - hribovje, gorata dežela, tujina ( hosta)
=Ħprr= - skarabej, sončni bog (keber)
= Hast - vodnjak ( štirna)
=jakb= - žalovanje / =jk= - tožiti ( jok)
=jaq= - obvladati ( jako ) =jam= - žrtvovati / jama
=mska= - koža, kožuh ( maska) =jčn= - tožba, kričanje, ječanje =jča= - lopov ( ječa) =jnq= - zajeti združiti (junak)
=jrčt= - mleko ( ričet, jogurt) =jrp= -grozdje, trta, vino (tropine) =qrnt= - (neobrezan) falus (kurent) =kap=-pokriti, skriti, streha ( kapa)
=qrrtj= - prebivalec podzemlja, sončni bog ( krt, krtova dežela)
=mačw= - žezlo ( meč) =maAt= - resnica, pravica ( mera)
=maħ= - ploskanje, venec (mahanje) =mďt= - mazilo ( mast)
=mnhjw= - kamen ( menhir) =mw= – voda ( morje)
=njwt= – naselje, mesto, nasprotno nebo ( njive)
=nďnď =- prošnja, klepet ( čenčanje, nič )
=pħ= - doseči, zgrabiti, napasti ( pehati se, upehati)
=rĦ= - izkušnja, spoznanje, spolno občevanje, vedenje ( res)
=skr= - Sokar - sokoljeglavi bog onstranstva ( sokol)
=sn= - odpiranje, vohanje, brat, svak ( nos )
=spr= - prispetje, prošnja, rebro ( prsa)
=šrr= - majhno, nepomembno, mlado, tekoče (drobno, zrnato)
=tkn= - bližanje, približanje ( dotikanje)
=rmj= - jok, rama ( jamranje) =rnpt= - leto ( lani, zopet)
=rp= - mošnja ( žep) =najt= - tkalnica ( nit)
=rd= – noga, sled, rast ( nart) =ršt= - riba ( roštilj)
=srt= – ovca, trn ( srt) =stA= - dejavnost (storiti)
=stwtj= - vsebina ( vsota ) =šaq= - torba ( žakelj)
=ts= – zavezati (tesno) =wabt= - korenina, hrana ( vaba )
=wrrjt= – voz ( vrtenje) =wšaw= - tema, noč ( večer)

sanskrt punic

*sal* - poslati »šlh« - poslati, razširiti se
*vid* - vedeti »jdA« - vedeti
*abhra* - prah »Apr« - prah
*žara* - starost »ršat« - starost
*rAža* - kralj »raš« - glava, glavar
*arka* - žarek »Ar« - luč
*išta* - želja »aršt« - želja
*brnh* - močno »bra« - močno
*hari* - zlato »hrš« - zlato
*mlAj* - veneti, medleti »aml« - veneti, medleti
*jAga* - žrtev »jgn« - dar
*Aža* - koza »Az« - kozel
*rbhi* - mojster, obrtnik »rb« - mojster, učitelj
*rt* - beseda, reč »rAt« - sklep
*šam* - svetnik »šm« - narediti, slava
*suprija* - zelo prijetno »spr« - lepo, čudovito
*kAla* - čas »kl« - vse, vsebovanje
*bala* - sila »bAl« - vlada, malik
*nr* - človek, junak, narod »nAr« - sin

hettite punsko

+uijanna+ - vino »jn« - vino
+šuppiuašhar+ - čebula »bśl« -čebula

egyptian punic

=tr= – čas, trenutek, trajanje »dr« - čas, družina
=qd= - zidanje, skleda, kad »kd« - vrč ( kad)


sanskrt hettite punic

*grath* - graditi +gurta+ - grad »gdr« - zid ( grad)
*lih* - lizati +lip+ - lizati »lšn« - jezik
*krt* - sekati +kartAj+ - odrezati »krt« - zaklati


sanskrt egyptian punic

*aham* - jaz =jnk= - jaz »ank« - jaz
*ptat* - ptič =Apd= - ptič »Apt« - ptič
*mr* - umreti =mwt= - umiranje »mt« - umreti
*pračh* - vprašati =sprw= prošnja »arš« - vprašati
*pač* - kuhati =psj= - kuha »apj« - peči
*phala* - plod =prt= - plod »pr« - plod
*dur* - duri, vrata =trj= - vhod, vrata »dlht« - vrata, tabla
*stri* - ženska =st= - ženska »ašt« - ženska
*šri* - sreča =ršrš= - sreča »arš« - sreča
*bhu* - biti, bivati =bjt= – čebela, kralj, značaj »bt« - bajta
*bhr* - pobrati, nesti =br= - borša, barka, barvilo »nša« - nositi
*bhaja* - strah =sAba= - bojazen »bAt« - cena, strah



egyptian hettite punic

=hmwtj= - umetnik +ummijani+ - umetnik »amn« - umetnik




sanskrt hettite

*sadas* - sedež +ašatar, ašandaš+ - sedež
*juga* - plug +appalašša+ - plug
*giri* - gora +šer+ - gor, zgoraj
*tAta* - oče +atta, adduš+ - oče
*čašaka* - čaša +ateš+ - čaša (+huppar+ - kupa)
*antar* - notri +anturija, andurza+ – notri
*dama, amA*-dom, doma +parna, damet+ - dom, razkošje
*živa* - življenje +huiš+ - živeti
*dAru, dru* - les +taru+ - les, drvo
*dAja, jAga* - dar, darovanje +iuar+ - dar
*šrnga, karna* - rog, uho +karuar+ - rogovje
*tala* - dlan (*kara* - roka) +keššar+ - dlan
*madhu* - med +milit+ - med
*manžu, sasneha*-nežno +genzu+ - nežnost, ljubezen
*pAda* - stopalo, peta +pat+ - stopalo
*han* - nehati +zena+ - konec
*šarad* - leto +št+ - leto
*deša* - dežela (*kšetra* - polje) +dagan, tekan+ - zemlja
*drš; dršti* - zreti, videti +uatar+ - videti, vid
*kloša* - klic +kaleš+ - klicanje
*sunu* - sin +ši-+sin
*pA, sar* - piti, srkati +pašk+ - srkati, piti
*As, lapana*- usta +aiš+ - usta (allapahh - pljuniti)
*tvam* - ti +ta+ - tebe, tebi
*upanga* -sv, znak (sandale na čelu) +kunzi+ - sveti znak
*anka* - zanka, kljuka +anku+ - popolnoma


egyptian punic

=st=- stol (=jsbt= - prestol ) »jšb« - sedež
=hbw= - plug »alp« - plug
=hr= - hribovje, kanal »hr« - hribovje
=wtčw= - sin, oče »abt« - očetje
=kč= - kupa, čaša »kba« - kupa, čaša
=hnw= - notri (nčr - bog) »bgw« - notri
=pr= - hiša, stavba, prostor »am« -domače mesto
=AhAw= - življenje »hwj« - živeti
=nArt= - drevo (js - les) »jAr, As« - les, drvo
=dj= - dati »dl«-delo (»jgn«-dar)
=wpt= - rogovje (db - rog) »krn« - rog
=mjt= - omamna pijača »npt« - med
=drt= - dlan »jd« - dlan
=b= - stopalo »pAm« - stopalo
=sfn= - nežnost »snf« - nežno
=hn= - nehati »nh« - mir, počitek
=rnpt= - leto »št« - leto
=ša= - dežela »šd« - polje, dežela
=jrt= - oko, vid »hzj« - zreti
=kj= - klicanje »kra« - klicanj
=sa= - potomec, sin »bn, š-« sin
=pš= - pijača (swr - srkanje) »štj« - piti, srkati
=ra= - usta »p« - usta
=tw= - ti, te, tebe »at« - ti
=čbt= - sandala, copata »ţbAt« - pečat

Vedun
18-05-14, 19:38
I call this language "human language", if we all come from Africa, then this might be the proof of it...

LeBrok
18-05-14, 22:10
I call this language "human language", if we all come from Africa, then this might be the proof of it...
Out of Africa origin goes back 70 thousand years. Do you think that any language could retain any words any artifacts of the original African language? It is more likely that similarities and borrowings in languages go back to spread of farming 10-5,000 years ago from Near East and spread of Indo-Europeans 4,000 years ago in Europe and Asia.

Nobody1
23-05-14, 04:14
The veneti/wends/vandals/goth phoenicians were the basques aka the 1st mariners and 1st white race that colonized the earth and gave rise to white people aka true hebrews of the bible.

http://replygif.net/i/1121.gif

MOESAN
23-05-14, 16:57
Phoenician (derives from Feniti, Veneti) god Baal was Slavic god Veles (Vaal or Vol; "wool" (Bull; Ox(Vol).

There are linguistic indications that even Akkadians have had some influence of old Slavic languages. Slovenian engineer, linguist Lucijan Vuga collected at least 500 words/similarities between Slovene-old Akkadian in a short dictionary. (In Slovene remained also strong similarities with the ancient Rig Vedic (Rek Vedski) Sanskrit); and Sanskrit shared similarities with Hittite. For example: Hittite city of Kadesh shares similarities with the Sanskrit term deza which means "country" and with Slovene dežela which means a "country". The similar form for this word is "Desh". So "Kad-desh" or "Country of Hittites". (and not a "holy land" as it is explained on Wikipedia.
Veneti were a multi ethnic, lingual people but I think that there were similarities between them over the "Amber road/path". From Scandinavia (if you've ever heard about the theory of "Troy (another Venetic people) in Scandinavia") to Paflagonia, Anatolia, Venetic territories.


I doubt seriously Veneti (WeneTi) could have a link with PHoeniCians (linguistic link of names, I mean): here Wikipedia about phoenicians:

The name Phoenicians, like Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) Poenī (adj. poenicus, later pūnicus), comes from Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Φοίνικες (Phoínikes), attested since Homer and influenced by phoînix "Tyrian purple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple), crimson; murex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murex)" (itself from phoinós "blood red").[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-9) The word stems from Mycenaean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek) po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian) fnḥw (fenkhu)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-10) "Asiatics, Semites". The folk-etymological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology) association of phoiniki with phoînix mirrors that in Akkadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_language) which tied kinaḫni, kinaḫḫi "Canaan; Phoenicia" to kinaḫḫu "red-dyed wool".[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-11)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-12) The land was natively known as knʿn (cf. Eblaite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eblaite) ca-na-na-um, ca-na-na), remembered in the 6th century BC by Hecataeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus) under the Greek form Chna (χνα), and its people as the knʿny (cf. Punic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_language) chanani, Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew) kanaʿani).

Tomenable
12-04-15, 01:35
Vedun can you give also English translations of those words ??? I want to see what they mean.

Because for example word "computer" is similar in all languages, but obviously not because of a common Out-Of-Africa origin... :grin:

Ike
12-04-15, 04:04
OK, how did language branches like Semitic, IE, Caucusian got into existence? All in the same time, or there were people who spoke one of these languages and decided to invent a new one? Or it was just a misfortunate chain of events?

Johan
30-04-15, 17:16
zanipolo



you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India...

Indoeuropeans originate in the Pontic or Altaic steppe, NOT India.

gyms
01-05-15, 08:49
"I2a is also Slavic."

Really?

Sile
01-05-15, 20:03
The only wends appear to be from the Veleti people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

and the term was used from germania to the vistula river and nothing or nobody east of this vistula river