Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

"Vyatichi" is actually the East Slavic denazalized rendition of something like VENT-ICHI. There are many examples of such. Off the top of my head I can remember Porphyrogenitos' "Sventostlabos" (the historical /later history/ "Svyatoslav" et sim. Acc. to the old Kyivan chronicle, these VYATICHI/VENTICHI were migrants "from the Lyakhs" (=Poland by most interpreters). Baltic Venedi? Who knows? Belorusan archaeologist Nosevych might be sympathetic to such a view, but it's a tricky thing indeed. There is a river Venta in Latvia. Is there also one in Poland?

the issue with the venedi being slavic is very very sceptical because they where only recored from 375BC to 200AD when they where assilimilated into gothic society/armies and basically disappeared as a tribe .

further reading says they became the Vidivarii

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii

something from Jordanes, which I do not believe, but these Vidivarii ended up being the baltic prussians
 
also note that the Veneti where also noted as illyrian by herodus or still from trojan lands. There is a gap between 1187BC end of trojan war and the latest venetic finds from 1025BC

Publius Vergilius Maro (15.10.70 – 21.9.19 B.C.)

Antenor potuit mediis elapsus AchivisIllyrios penetrare sinus atque intima tutusregna Liburnorum et fontem superare Timavi.

Antenor escaped from the midst of the Greeks, has been able safe to penetrate the Illyrian bays and the inmost realms of the Liburnians and to pass beyond the fountain of Timavus


Illyridos penetrare sinus”. Antenor non Illyricum, non Liburniam,sed Venetiam tenuit. Ideo autem Vergilius dicit “Illyricos sinus”, quod inde venit quidamHenetus rex, qui Venetiam tenuit, a cuius nomine Henetiam dictam posteri Venetiam nominaverunt
“To penetrate the Illyrian bays”. Antenor was not headed for Illyria, nor for Liburnia,but for Venetia. This is why Virgil says: “Illyrian bays”, because from that came a certain king Henetus who took Venetia, that has the name Henetia from him that was named by later people venetia

Romans mention Tropaeum Alpium and the 45 alpine tribes.

page 543 notes the towns in modern bavaria which where called Passau and Pons Aeni to name 2 . Passau was later changed to boiodurum and it was stated in 15BC , publicum portorium illyrici

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...paeum+Alpium&hl=en#v=onepage&q=passau&f=false

In regards to Illyrians, the more I read, the more I see this an unlikely name of these people. My guess is that it refers to a form similar to Italians. In that when delving into Roman detail, they have Illyrians which are
north west = Luburnians
west = Dalmatians
east = Pannonians
south = Dardanians


EDIT: quotes from here
http://www.mek.oszk.hu/05100/05110/05110.pdf

this deals with raeti, etruscan, venetian languages, migrations of these peoples , dna and a lot more
its a good read even though its 167 pages
also deals with southern germanic languages
 
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here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.

SAINTDATA:Columban, abbot and missioner, Born in Leinster (Ireland), c. 540; d.at Bobbio, Italy, 640; feast day 23 November. [*Note that, despiteJonas' assertion that Columban was also known as "Columba",he is distinct from St. Columba, founder of Iona, born in 521, d.597, and whose feast day is June 9.]





56.

OnceColumban though going to the land of the Wends, who are also called Slavs, in order to illuminate their darkened minds with the light ofthe Gospel and to open the way of truth to those who had alwayswandered in error. When he proposed to make his vows, the angel ofthe Lord appeared to him in a vision, and showed him in a littlecircle the structure of the world, just as the circle of the universeis usually, drawn with a pen in a book. "You perceive," theangel said, "how much remains set apart of the whole world. Goto the right or the left where you will, that you may enjoy thefruits of your labors." Therefore Columban remained where hewas, until the way to Italy opened before him.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp
 
zanipolo why is this in the wrong thread? the thread is about

Sorry, I meant U152 present in Poland, as per map. It will be interesting getting subclades for Venice area and Poland to see if there are matching ones. When you look at Normandy, second map, there is also a Celtic tribe called Veneti. We might had same celtic/sea fairing tribe in 3 places: Venice, Normandy, and Poland; all by the sea. If we can find same subclade of U152 in 3 of them, then bingo!

i am just saying that the connection is slavic not celtic.
 
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393


and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309


This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.
 
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here is an Irish source that confirms that Slavs lived in Baltic andwere well known to the Irish. The source is the life of the st.Columban written in the 7th century and describes eventsthat happened during the saint's life. Enjoy.



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/columban.asp

This is in line with known chronology. Slavs reached Baltic by 6 the century, got mixed with Vikings, leaned how to built boats from them, and started to have contacts with people from around Baltic and North Sea. However, when you check list of shipwrecks from Polish coast, one can figure out that the Height of Slavic Navy comes later, around 10-11 century. From written record of this time we know that Norse/Danish Vikings were a dominant force over North and Baltic Seas all the time.

To have an idea how Baltic cultures were connected through Vikings and Viking culture, here is an excellent read about Olaf Tryggvason and his Irish and Wendish wifes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Norway
Tryggvason, hmmm, maybe his slavic name was Tryglavson?
 
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393


and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309


This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.

Wendish means ( and its only arose from the 6th century AD ) anyone east of the germanic people, even the baltic people. The danes and swedes have a claim on this fabricated name by jordanes. they owned these lands, estonia, samogitia, osel, latvia etc etc . In the peace of westphalia in 1648 , the swedes where given baltic lands due to this claim.
Even the vistula goths of 200AD ( who got rid of the Venedi) where called wends.

In regards to slavic people in pommerania, they arrived around 500-600AD after the departure of the east germanic tribes to the balkans and the west. the void was filled by people who spoke slavic or a form of slavic.

Slavic means a linguistic term and nothing more, genetically only poles and ukraines are slavs and this is from slavic scholars.

Serbs are genetically thracian, the byzantine written records show they are thracian, the romans know of no slavs or serbs on any of their eastern empire

I think you need to read the pro-slavic link i presented in the other thread and even this is against your theories.

the balts where the maritime people, as I stated before you are trying to eliminate the balts and replace them with the slavs
http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/gimbutas-03.html
 
Have a look at this. This is wendish (Serbian, Slavic) crown from Pomerania. It is the oldest Slavic inheritable title in Europe. The oldest one found is 2300 years old. Up until the beginning of the twentieth century it was on the crest of Pomerania and Zverin (Mecklenburg-Schwerin). The symbol on the crown is the symbol of Slavic god Perun.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendische_Krone

Here is the one from Neolithic times, on page 31:

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00003393


and another two on pages 139 and 140

http://mvdok.lbmv.de/mjbrenderer?id=mvdok_document_00002309


This puts Wends or Slavs in Pomerania at the exact same time when the Celts were supposed to have been living in this area.

Actually, when you think about this, the 2300 years old crown doesn't imply that it was made in Pomerania. Let's ask ourselves a question: How hard it is to move this small (5") crown from place to place? Let's say if you are a slavic prince and take part in slavic expansion from Ukraine to Pomerania (in this example) wouldn't you pack your royal crown with you?
So we know that crown is 2300 years old but we don't know where it was made, do we?
If you find a slavic "gorod" or a castle in Pomerania of 2300 years old, we will believe you that it was in Pomerania for that long time. With a crown, unfortunately, you don't have a case.

On the top of your discomfort with this crown, I would like to point a little "detail", that it comes with an emblem of slavic god Perun. You see, the most important god of Pomerania, the Triglav, is not embedded in it. Why is that?
As I mentioned before, the Triglave is not a slavic god, and it doesn't have a proper god name, therefore the proper place in slavic royal crown. Trinity is more of Celtic or Celtic-Germanic origin and was common in Gaul France and Greece. I showed you in the other thread the most common places the Triglav was found, and it wasn't in slavic lands, but Celtic. Did you ignore most common archaeological finds of Triglav, or more properly gods trinity, triad, the troyka?
 
As I mentioned before, the Triglave is not a slavic god, and it doesn't have a proper god name, therefore the proper place in slavic royal crown. Trinity is more of Celtic or Celtic-Germanic origin and was common in Gaul France and Greece. I showed you in the other thread the most common places the Triglav was found, and it wasn't in slavic lands, but Celtic. Did you ignore most common archaeological finds of Triglav, or more properly gods trinity, triad, the troyka?

there is no Celtic and Slavic and Germanic religion that can be set completely apart...
they are all derived from same religion of proto-indo-european people...

e.g. Slavic Perun is derived from the same deity as Baltic Perkunas, Luwian Tarhun, Celtic Taranas, Hattian Taru, Germanic Thor.


I do not see how someone can claim that 3-headed deity belongs to one branch of a religion but not to other branch...
if it exist in two branches, clearly most logical explanation is that it comes from their parent branch in both...

3 headed deity is among Slavic deities, and in Celtic as well...
the argument that Triglav doesnot have a functional meaning in Slavic is ridicilous....
Triglav = 3 heads
but 3 heads that see 3 main worlds: sky, earth and underworld.

do not forget that word "glavno" = main , key
so this is a deity with view in 3 main areas...

while Svetovid (svet = world, vid = to see) was a God who had 4 heads and was looking in 4 directions... he was not in the main view with look into all 3 key subworlds of indo-european religions (sky, earth, underworld) , he was inside one of the 3 subviews and there he could look in 4 directions (space dimension in 2d world as in crossroads...i would not relate it to 3D space plus time model though it may be).. ...


if we would ask for deities to have names with clear functional meaning in the associated languages, how do you explain names of the most Celtic deities that are not at all translatable via Celtic words? while Slavic words give match to function of those deities... does it mean that Celtic religion comes from Slavs?

Religious believes can also help us to identify certain ethnic groups in the antiquity.Before the coming of the Christianity different people worshiped more or less different eities. Gauls to whom Atlantic Veneti belonged worshiped a three-headed god. Depictions can be seen on their coins [24], p. 181 and on stone sculptures [15], p. 215. It is undoubt-edly the same one as
Trimuziatin of Adriatic Veneti [14], p. 297, which closest equivalentin my opinion was Slavic god Triglav (with meaning
three-headed ). Neither Welsh nor Gaelic speaking people had such a deity.
Belenos was another important Gaulish god. His name means the bright, white one [15], p. 30 and his closest equivalent is Slavic Belobog. the name of this deity can’t be explained in Irish, Scottish, or Welsh language. In these languages
white is respectively FEN, BAN, GWYN.There are many more Celtic gods,which names are easy to be explained from Slavic languages as Bulgarian, Slovene, Russian etc.
ALAUNUS was a sun-god [25], his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Russ.) word ALEN
red
.
ALISANOS was god of the alder trees [26]; his name corresponds to Bulgarian word
ELSHA alder tree
.
VETEROS was wind-god revered in Britain [27]; his name corresponds to Common Slavic word VETER - wind
.
IALONUS was a earth-god [15], p. 124; his name is connected with Old Church Slavonic word ILĂ earth, mud
.
VASIO
was another agriculture-god [15], p. 218; his name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic word VĂSĂ - earth, village, mansion
VAS is Modern Slovenian word for village
.
BEISIRISA means the bright one [15], p. 127; his name corresponds to Slavic (Blg. Sl.Serbo-Croat) word BISER pearl (shiny object)

LOUCETIUS means The bright one [15], p. 142, and his name corresponds best to Slovene word LUČ light
. Old Church Slavonic verb LUČITI to light, to shine
is also related tot he name of LUCETICUS.

LATOBIUS
means the bright one [15], p. 130; his name corresponds to Bulgarian words LJATO summer and LĂŠTJA to shine
.
VOROCIOS was e healer-god [15], p. 144; his name corresponds to Slovene, Bulg. Russ.word VRAČ healer
.
PRITONA was goddess of bridges [15], p. 176, her name corresponds to Common Slavic word BROD bridge, ford
.
SEQUANA was a river-goddess [15], p. 188, her name is connected with Old ChurchSlavonic verb SIKATI to water
.
LATIS was goddess of the marshes and pools [15], p. 130, her name I connect to Common Slavic word BLATO marsh
.
GLANIS was god of the healing springs [15], p. 105, his name is connected with OldBulgarian word GLENĂ moist, wet and Slovene GLEN mud.
Here I have to mention that a lot of springs have mud with healing qualities.

VERBEJA
was goddess of the willows [15], p. 219, her name is connected with Bulgarian word VĂRBA willow, Slovenian VRBA willow, Russian VERBA willow.

VERNOSTONOS
was revered in Britain [15], p. 219, his name means the one who makes the alder trees groan
His name corresponds to Bulgarian words BOR, BORINA fir tree and STON groan
.
RUDIAN was war-god, which name means the bloody one [15], p. 181. RUDIAN cor-responds to Old Russian word
RUDA blood
.
SMERTRIUS, or MARS SMERTRIUS was another war-god [15], p. 193, which name I connect with Common Slavic word
SMERT death. M. J. Green [15] connects his name with the abundance, provision, but it seems to me that it is more logical to connect awar-god with death, not with abundance and provision.

SUCELL
US was a smith-god, his name means Good striker
[15], p. 200. the particle SU corresponds to Gaulish word SU good and Bulgarian HUBAV good , CELL (US) cor-responds to Bulgarian verb KLEPAM I strike, Slovene verb KLEPATI to hit, to strike,and Bulgarian and Slovenian word KLEPALO
hammer.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13082475/CeltoSlavic-Similarities-Pavel-Serafimov

truth is somewhat different....both Slavic and Celtic religion are inhereted from proto-indo-european religion
names of deities in that religion are related to PIE dictionary......
most of those words do still exist in Slavic languages that are considerably closer to original proto-indo-european than Celtic languages....
most of those words do not exist in Celtic languages anymore...
 
Tryggvason, hmmm, maybe his slavic name was Tryglavson?
Well if Valdemar is Vladimir then Tryggvason could be Tryglavson.
Lots of Danish kings had a name of Valdemar, which was a Slavic name Vladimir, which according to the Danish historians, was changed from Slavic to Danish version. Why did Danish kings have Slavic names? This is because majority of the Danish population was in fact Slavic. there are many places in Scandinavia which still have Slavic names. Numerous Slavic forts were discovered in Denmark. There was a lot of intermarrying between the Wendish and the Danish ruling families throughout the medieval time. At that time this was done to strengthen the alliance between the two families, and considering that both the Slavs and the Danes were clan unions, this shows that actually there was a tribal alliance between at least some Slavic tribes and some Danish ones. The historical records show that this alliance actually existed and that the Slavs and Danes fought together against the Saxons who were waging a crusade against the pagans from the north. The things changed when Danes were Christianised and the Slavs didn’t. The Danes turned and joined the crusade and the all out war broke out which would last for a 150 years. Don’t think that this war was waged between genetically different people. It was a pure religious war where you had Slavs fighting on both sides. As a matter of fact some of the worst things during the war were done by the Christian Slavs who were the allies of the Danes. Eventually this led to the destruction of the Slavic states in the Baltic. The last pagan temple in Europe was destroyed in Arkona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Arkona) .
What I am saying is that until arrival of Christianity into the Baltic region, there was actually a lot of cooperation between Danes and the Wends. And a lot of fighting as well, but that fighting was not Slavs against Danes. There were numerous groups and tribal unions which fought each other for power and quite often the wars involved Slavs fighting Slavs and Danes fighting Danes.


this is in line with known chronology. Slavs reached Baltic by 6 the century, got mixed with Vikings, leaned how to built boats from them, and started to have contacts with people from around Baltic and North Sea. However, when you check list of shipwrecks from Polish coast, one can figure out that the Height of Slavic Navy comes later, around 10-11 century. From written record of this time we know that Norse/Danish Vikings were a dominant force over North and Baltic Seas all the time.

This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.
 
lebrok

Actually, when you think about this, the 2300 years old crown doesn't imply that it was made in Pomerania. Let's ask ourselves a question: How hard it is to move this small (5") crown from place to place? Let's say if you are a slavic prince and take part in slavic expansion from Ukraine to Pomerania (in this example) wouldn't you pack your royal crown with you? So we know that crown is 2300 years old but we don't know where it was made, do we?


Again you are not even trying to read any of the documents that i post here. If you did, you would see that they (there were many crowns) were found in the bronze and iron age graves. Unless some Slavic prince, who as you say arrived in the 7th century, dug these graves open and placed a crown in all of them, then they are authentic Wendish (Serbian) bronze age crowns. Yes there were many of them, and all slightly different showing the development of the crown through history. So these crowns show cultural continuity (Slavic culture) in the southern Baltic from bronze age to today.
 
lebrok

here is some more proof of Wendish or Slavic cultural continuity in the north east of Germany from bronze age to medieval time.

A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.).
Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Burgwall


lebrok, you were looking for bronze age gords:

The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany (where it is known as Lausitz, Latin: Lusatia) and parts ofUkraine. It covers the Periods Montelius III (early Lusatian culture) to V of the Northern-European chronological scheme.
There were close contacts with the Nordic Bronze Age, and the Scandinavian influence on Pomerania and northern Poland during this period was so considerable[1] that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture.[2]Hallstatt and La Tène influences are seen particularly in ornaments (fibulae, pins) and weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture


so the same people who made wendishe krone made gords.
 
This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. .

I am not familiar with this reseach. But findings do sound very possible. Srem was in 4th century not populated with same people as areas south of Danube. Before spread of Roman empire, guess roughly before 100 AD it was settled by Scordisci (they lived along Danube and Morava river), later by Sarmatian Iazyges.

I claim for long time that Scordisci/Serdi are forefathers of Serbs. Some other people claim that Serbs were of Sarmatian origin. So, there's the explanation for unchanged population.


The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.

it is not possible in any way to claim that all r1a1 was Slavic. In fact,there is a clade of it that exist only in europe and only in Slavs, and is most dominant in west Slavs and oldest in Serbia indicating that west Slavs origin from area of Serbia, If Slavs were settling as far as Denmark we would see that clade there, but we do not. On other hand I did see a sample of I2a2-din in Denmark.

interesting is that in PIE vocabulary
*suerb = turn
*uend = turn
*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

see thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27558-origin-of-tribal-names

and that Sorbs small Slavic nation in Germany who call themselves Serbja also uses alternative names Lusatians and Wends.
 
This chronology is now in question. There is no genetic proof that there was any great Slavic migration in the first millennium AD. The population of the Balkans has not changed since at least the 4th century. Recent discovery of the graveyard near the town of Sremska Mitrovica shows that all the skeletons there have the same genetic structure as modern Serbians. The only exception are a few Germanic ones. The genetic structure of alpine region has not changed since the bronze age. The Slavic r1a1 is cropping up in all the “germanic” areas, including Britain and Ireland. I don't believe that the population in the southern Baltic changed since at least the bronze age as well. there are numerous historical sources that confirm that the Wends or Slavs lived all over Europe in antiquity, and now the genetic data is taking any doubt out of it. this however does not mean that Celts did not exist. it just means that Celts and Slavs were related, or the same people.

There is no such thing as Slavic R1a1, no Haplotype type belongs to any linguistic or racial group exclusivly.

I will ask you, because I could not be anwered in another thread. Since the word Wend appears for the first time around 600Ad by Jordanes ( who could only speak Latin and Gothic,,,and not germanic) , what where these "wendish" people called before this?

5 year old book on the baltic area
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venedian&f=false
 
The (Baltic) Venedi were first mentioned by Pliny in his "Natural History", completed ca. 75 CE. His source is unknown. Tacitus spoke of them in ch. 46 of his "Germania" (published in 98 CE) , as inhabiting areas east of the Vistula. Ptolemy repeatedly referred to them in his Geography.
 
The (Baltic) Venedi were first mentioned by Pliny in his "Natural History", completed ca. 75 CE. His source is unknown. Tacitus spoke of them in ch. 46 of his "Germania" (published in 98 CE) , as inhabiting areas east of the Vistula. Ptolemy repeatedly referred to them in his Geography.

yes, and the goths where below the venedi on the vistula.
But the Venedi disappeared around 200Ad well before the slavs came.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii
It was the only way that jordanes could justify the gothic expansion into baltic lands
Jordanes was a goth 'historian".........a very bad one it seems to modern historians
 
@dublin

you are again claiming baltic peoples lands for the slavs

the major authorities on Balts, such as Būga, Vasmer, Toporov and Trubachov, in conducting etymological studies of eastern European river names, were able to identify in certain regions names of specifically Baltic provenance, which most likely indicate where the Balts lived in prehistoric times. This information is summarized and synthesized by Marija Gimbutas in The Balts (1963) to obtain a likely proto-Baltic homeland. Its borders are approximately: from a line on the Pomeranian coast eastward to include or nearly include the present-day sites of Berlin, Warsaw, Kiev, and Kursk, northward through Moscow to the River Berzha, westward in an irregular line to the coast of the Gulf of Riga, north of Riga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_culture_in_Pomerania

Settlement in Pomerania started by the end of the Vistula Glacial Stage, some 13,000 years ago.[6] Archeological traces have been found of various cultures during the Stone and Bronze Age, Baltic peoples, Germanic peoples and Veneti during the Iron Age and, in the Middle Ages, Slavic tribes and Vikings.[7][8][9][6][10][11][12] The Pomeranian (Western) Balts who lived between the Jutland peninsula in the west and the Vistula river in the east were partly assimilated by Germanic tribes advancing to the east from 1500 BC to the 1st century AD. Starting in the 10th century, early Polish dukes on several occasions subdued parts of the region from the southeast, while the Holy Roman Empire and Denmark augmented their territory from the west and north

Again I say to you, do not slavitize people who learn slavic language and make them slavs......this way of thinking makes you English ( because you can speak english) and nothing else...........its 100% wrong
 
zanipolo

There is no such thing as Slavic R1a1, no Haplotype type belongs to any linguistic or racial group exclusivly.

you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India they all spoke the Indoeuropean language. In Europe they mixed with the indigenous population. They mixed their Indoeuropean language with indigenous languages thus creating different European languages. The least amount of pollution of the original Indoeuropean language would have occured in the areas where the Indoeuropans mixed with the indigenous population the least, or where number of Indoeuropean newcomers vastly outnumbered the indigenous people. So if the migration happened from east to west then the bulk of the Indoeuropeans would have settled in the east of Europe, the area they first encountered, particularly because the Indoeuropeans were herders, nomads, and they would preferred wide open grasslands of eastern and central Europe.

now let us see what the genetics tells us. Look at the R1a map:

Haplogroup-R1a.jpg

It tells us that R1a is most frequent in Slavic countries. So the dilution of the Indoeuropean language would be the smallest in these areas. Which language is spoken in these areas? Slavic. If Slavic language is the most Indoeuropean language, then Slavs are the most Indoeuropean people.

Here are some other people who had the same opinion:

Ami Boue french liguist Stated: ,,... au IX siecle, le slav apparait beucoup plus rapproche que toute autre langue du vieux type indo-europeen."

,,... In IX century The Slav language seems more then any other european language closer to the indo-European language.
Abel Hovelacque stated: ,,... le latin et le grec sont, en maintes circontances, plus eloignes que le slav de la langue commune indo-europeene..."

,... latin and greek in the majority of instances are more distant then slav in the shared indo-european languages.
,,... the establishe fact is concluded that they are the arhaic configuration of the slav language!!!..."
The conclussion of the Great Larousse encyclopedia:

The Slav language seems to be more then any other language closer to the ancient "indo-european" type"

Now what about l2a1. Here is the distribution of this genetic material:

Haplogroup_I2a.jpg


These genes are most frequent in the Balkans an central and eastern Europe. In the area where this genes are most frequent, people speak Slavic languages as well. But when we compare these Slavic dialects going from the Balkans diagonally towards the north east, we see that the Balkan dialects are the oldest and further north and east we go the younger the dialects are. What does that mean? How is it possible that the people in the Balkans, where Indoeuropeans almost didn't come at all, speak the oldest dialects of Slavic languages? This means that The l2a1 people were the original Europoindians (i like this), the original Arians. Part of them migrated to India and then part of those who went to India eventually came back to Europe.


Our analysis confirms that many elements of the gaulish culture, before the Roman
conquest, could originate in Eastern Europe. Especially meaningful are in this respect
the matches between slavic words and gaulish toponyms, tribe and deities names. The
scenario of the gaulish-slavic interrelations did not emerge till now because of the absurd
assumption that slavs were late incomers into Europe and, consequently, it was unnecessary
to look for gaulish-slavic interrelations. We hope that the present work could initiate new
researches on further different aspects of the interrelations between gauls and slavs.
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf

The Online Etymology dictionary [12] is an easy to access program on the internet and an
excellent tool for doing research. It contains approximately 30,000 words of which unfortunately
very few are declared slavic” or “Proto-slavic”. Even words that are declared “slavic” or “Protoslavic” are lightly emphasized and given little significance. Most easily recognizable “slavic” or
“Proto-slavic” words are usually labeled Proto-germanic which is incorrect.
Of the words studied for this and other projects close to 1,500 have been identified
to have “slavic” or “Proto-slavic” origins. There are strong indications that with time and
further study this number could be doubled.
What is interesting about this dictionary is that about 25 % of the basic everyday type
of words it contains are declared either “unknown”, “obscure” or possibly Proto-Roman, 10
Proto-germanic or Proto-Celtic, but without any convincing etymology. What is also
interesting is that about 65 % of these words can be explained by the slavic languages.
from what has been discovered up to now there are indications that the English
language has had slavic influence.

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/belchevsky_slavic_roots.pdf
 
zanipolo



you call it Indoeuropean and i will call it Slavic. not the only Slavic mind you. I2a is also Slavic. there was not only one migration between Europe and India. there were many. i believe that people first went from Balkan to India and then went back. Same people same language different generations.

Now when Indoeuropeans came to Europe from India they all spoke the Indoeuropean language. In Europe they mixed with the indigenous population. They mixed their Indoeuropean language with indigenous languages thus creating different European languages. The least amount of pollution of the original Indoeuropean language would have occured in the areas where the Indoeuropans mixed with the indigenous population the least, or where number of Indoeuropean newcomers vastly outnumbered the indigenous people. So if the migration happened from east to west then the bulk of the Indoeuropeans would have settled in the east of Europe, the area they first encountered, particularly because the Indoeuropeans were herders, nomads, and they would preferred wide open grasslands of eastern and central Europe.

now let us see what the genetics tells us. Look at the R1a map:

View attachment 5642

It tells us that R1a is most frequent in Slavic countries. So the dilution of the Indoeuropean language would be the smallest in these areas. Which language is spoken in these areas? Slavic. If Slavic language is the most Indoeuropean language, then Slavs are the most Indoeuropean people.

Here are some other people who had the same opinion:

Ami Boue french liguist Stated: ,,... au IX siecle, le slav apparait beucoup plus rapproche que toute autre langue du vieux type indo-europeen."


Abel Hovelacque stated: ,,... le latin et le grec sont, en maintes circontances, plus eloignes que le slav de la langue commune indo-europeene..."


The conclussion of the Great Larousse encyclopedia:

If you want to quote Olga's book, she stated the slavs left the balkans in 4500BC and went to mesopatamia and created the first language, then to India and then back to europe as far as the rhine river.
One branch from meopotamia went to become pharohs of egypt.

Quote correctly the utter rubbish from Olga's book...the propoganda book that was taught in all Yugoslav schools.
 

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