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Regio X
28-05-20, 19:49
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6)

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant

Highlights
- Analysis of genome-wide data for nine sites from the Bronze Age Southern Levant
- Contemporaneous samples from multiple sites are genetically similar
- Migration from the Zagros and/or Caucasus to the Levant between 2500–1000 BCE
- People related to these individuals contributed to all present-day Levantine populations

Summary
We report genome-wide DNA data for 73 individuals from five archaeological sites across the Bronze and Iron Ages Southern Levant. These individuals, who share the “Canaanite” material culture, can be modeled as descending from two sources: (1) earlier local Neolithic populations and (2) populations related to the Chalcolithic Zagros or the Bronze Age Caucasus. The non-local contribution increased over time, as evinced by three outliers who can be modeled as descendants of recent migrants. We show evidence that different “Canaanite” groups genetically resemble each other more than other populations. We find that Levant-related modern populations typically have substantial ancestry coming from populations related to the Chalcolithic Zagros and the Bronze Age Southern Levant. These groups also harbor ancestry from sources we cannot fully model with the available data, highlighting the critical role of post-Bronze-Age migrations into the region over the past 3,000 years.



https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/723079a1-5ae0-49d7-b2f1-2e5a257b374b/fx1.jpg

Angela
28-05-20, 20:04
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6)

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant

Highlights
- Analysis of genome-wide data for nine sites from the Bronze Age Southern Levant
- Contemporaneous samples from multiple sites are genetically similar
- Migration from the Zagros and/or Caucasus to the Levant between 2500–1000 BCE
- People related to these individuals contributed to all present-day Levantine populations

Summary
We report genome-wide DNA data for 73 individuals from five archaeological sites across the Bronze and Iron Ages Southern Levant. These individuals, who share the “Canaanite” material culture, can be modeled as descending from two sources: (1) earlier local Neolithic populations and (2) populations related to the Chalcolithic Zagros or the Bronze Age Caucasus. The non-local contribution increased over time, as evinced by three outliers who can be modeled as descendants of recent migrants. We show evidence that different “Canaanite” groups genetically resemble each other more than other populations. We find that Levant-related modern populations typically have substantial ancestry coming from populations related to the Chalcolithic Zagros and the Bronze Age Southern Levant. These groups also harbor ancestry from sources we cannot fully model with the available data, highlighting the critical role of post-Bronze-Age migrations into the region over the past 3,000 years.



https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/723079a1-5ae0-49d7-b2f1-2e5a257b374b/fx1.jpg

Sounds like Iran Neo, or not?

Plus, there's something extra they can't pinpoint.

Hope at least the Supplement is available. I'll read it with interest.

Do they test the various varieties of Jews for it?

Regio X
28-05-20, 20:09
Sounds like Iran Neo, or not?

Plus, there's something extra they can't pinpoint.

Hope at least the Supplement is available. I'll read it with interest.

Do they test the various varieties of Jews for it?Apparently the paper is "open access".

Supplemental: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#secsectitle0190
(https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#secsectitle0190)
As for the types of Jews, I confess I don't know. I didn't read it yet.

ED: Btw, could you move this thread to Bronze Age sub-forum, please?

Angela
28-05-20, 20:20
Tuscans 30-40% MegiddoML Bronze Age plus Iran Chl. ?

They're going to have to do a hell of a job convincing me of that.

Does it occur to them that this composite contains a lot of Anatolia Neolithic, and they should break it up into component parts?

kingjohn
28-05-20, 20:43
Apparently the paper is "open access".

Supplemental: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#secsectitle0190
(https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#secsectitle0190)
As for the types of Jews, I confess I don't know. I didn't read it yet.

ED: Btw, could you move this thread to Bronze Age sub-forum, please?


yes from another forum :
thats before the Israelite probably Canaanites:thinking:

y dna + mtdna :smile:

I4521 Megiddo_IBA 2334-2149 calBCE (3810±20 BP, PSUAMS-2167) J

I10268 Megiddo_MLBA 1971-1782 calBCE (3560±20 BP, OS-139225) J

I10104 Megiddo_MLBA 1950-1800 BCE J

I4519 Megiddo_MLBA 1527-1439 calBCE (3220±20 BP, OS-139223) J2a1b1

I2190 Megiddo_MLBA 1496-1302 calBCE (3135±30 BP, Poz-83433) J

I8187 Megiddo_MLBA 1800-1650 BCE J1a2b

I8188 Megiddo_MLBA 1800-1650 BCE J1a2b

I10359 Megiddo_MLBA 1623-1518 calBCE (3295±20 BP, PSUAMS-4852) J2a

I10101 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE J1a2b

I2189 Megiddo_I2189 (outlier) 1600-1500 BCE R

I10769 Megiddo_MLBA 1550-1450 BCE E1b1b1b2a1

I10770 Megiddo_MLBA 1550-1450 BCE E1b1b1b2a1a

I10093 Megiddo_MLBA 1900-1700 BCE J1a2b

I10264 Megiddo_MLBA 1880-1700 calBCE (3470±20 BP, OS-139224) J1a2b

I10106 Megiddo_MLBA 1700-1500 BCE J1a2b

I10266 Megiddo_MLBA 1638-1413 calBCE (3240±55 BP, RTK-6765) J

I4525 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE J

I10768 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1b1a1a2

I2195 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1278 calBCE (3160±55 BP, RTK-6766) J

I4518 Megiddo_MLBA 1550-1300 BCE T1a1a1b2

I2198 Megiddo_MLBA 1509-1432 calBCE (3207±20 BP, RTK-7898) J1a2b

I4517 Megiddo_IA 1107-923 calBCE (2845±25 BP, PSUAMS-2166) J1
I2201 Abel_IA 1011-846 calBCE (2790±30 BP, Poz-83471) T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a2

I3965 Hazor_MLBA 1800-1700 BCE J1a2b

I3966 Hazor_MLBA 1800-1700 BCE E1b1b1b2a1

I7182 Yehud_IBA 2500-2000 BCE J

I6923 Yehud_IBA 2500-2000 BCE J

I7003 Yehud_IBA 2500-2000 BCE J2b

I6461 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J1a2b

I3985 Baqah_MLBA 1412-1234 calBCE (3065±30 BP, PSUAMS-1992) J1a2b

I3703 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J1a2b

I6464 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J1a2b

I6566 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J1a2b

I6569 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J1a2b

I6460 Baqah_MLBA 1550-1150 BCE J

I3705 Baqah_MLBA 1492-1303 calBCE (3130±25 BP, PSUAMS-1987) J1a2b

I3987 Baqah_MLBA 1428-1293 calBCE (3100±25 BP, PSUAMS-1989) J1a2b

I3706 Baqah_MLBA 1424-1288 calBCE (3095±25 BP, PSUAMS-1990) J1a2b

I6459 Baqah_MLBA 1384-1213 calBCE (3025±20 BP, PSUAMS-3719) J1a2b

Angela
28-05-20, 20:44
There's a problem with the "Somali" they find in the Levant too. Who says that it arrived in the Levant as "Somali" like, perhaps with East African slave women?

Somali's are 40% West Eurasian like. Some older studies said it was "Sardinian" like.

These papers by less established researchers are not inspiring a lot of confidence.

I want to see what reference they're using for European Late Neolithic. If they're using a heavily steppe admixed sample, no wonder Tuscans come out the way they do. Try it with Villanova R1 and see what happens.

Christ, it shouldn't need a hobbyist to point out these issues.

Angela
29-05-20, 14:59
I can't believe Reich supervised this.

He should go back to working with Lazaridis and Patterson.

real expert
29-05-20, 17:37
There's a problem with the "Somali" they find in the Levant too. Who says that it arrived in the Levant as "Somali" like, perhaps with East African slave women?

Somali's are 40% West Eurasian like. Some older studies said it was "Sardinian" like.

These papers by less established researchers are not inspiring a lot of confidence.




I want to see what reference they're using for European Late Neolithic. If they're using a heavily steppe admixed sample, no wonder Tuscans come out the way they do. Try it with Villanova R1 and see what happens.

Christ, it shouldn't need a hobbyist to point out these issues.

Hi Angela my question again. Why does this paper on the Bronze Age Southern Levant suggests that the East African geneflow entered the Levant after the Bronze age by using the East African admixture in modern Levantine people? How do they know? I'm a bit confused.

In a daily mail article, the researchers stated that they don't know when
African and European genes first made it into the genomes of modern-day inhabitants of the Levant.





For the LINADMIX analysis of present-day populations, we used a background dataset of 1,663 present-day and ancient individuals from 239 populations genotyped by using SNP arrays and focused our analysis on 14 Jewish and Levantine present-day populations, along with modern English, Tuscan, and Moroccan populations that were used as controls. We used LINADMIX to model each of the 17 present-day populations as an admixture of four sources: (1) Megiddo_MLBA (the largest group) as a representative of the Middle-to-Late Bronze Age component; (2) Iran_ChL as a representative of the Zagros and the Caucasus; (3) Present-day Somalis as representatives of an Eastern African source (in the absence of genetic data on ancient populations from the region); and (4) Europe_LNBA as a representative of ancient Europeans from the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age (Methods S1I; Table S4; Figure S4). We also applied PHCP to these 17 present-day populations (Methods S1G; Table S4; Figure S4). Comparison of PHCP and LINADMIX shows that they agree well with respect to the Somali and Europe_LNBA component, and therefore also for the combined contribution of Iran_ChL and Megiddo_MLBA (Methods S1G; Figure S4). However, they deviate regarding the respective contributions of Iran_ChL and Megiddo_MLBA (Figure S4), likely because of the fact that the Megiddo_MLBA and Iran_ChL are already very similar populations (Table S3). To only consider results that are robust and shared by LINADMIX and PHCP, we have combined Megiddo_MLBA and Iran_ChL to a single source population representing the Middle East for our main results (Figure 5). We further verified these conclusions, as well as the robustness of the estimations, by using a different representative for the Bronze Age Levantine groups as a source (Tables S4 and S5; Methods S1J) and using perturbations to the ADMIXTURE parameters (Table S4; Methods S1K). Combined, these results suggest that modern populations related to the Levant are consistent with having a substantial ancestry component from the Bronze Age Southern Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros. Nonetheless, other potential ancestry sources are possible, and more ancient samples might enable a refined picture (Table S4).






The results show that since the Bronze Age, an additional East-African-related component was added to the region (on average ∼10.6%, excluding Ethiopian Jews who harbor ∼80% East African component), as well as a European-related component (on average ∼8.7%, excluding Ashkenazi Jews who harbor a ∼41% European-related component). The East-African-related component is highest in Ethiopian Jews and North Africans (Moroccans and Egyptians). It exists in all Arabic-speaking populations (apart from the Druze). The European-related component is highest in the European control populations (English and Tuscan), as well as in Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews, both having a history in Europe (Atzmon et al., 2010, Carmi et al., 2014, Schroeter, 2008). This component is present, although in smaller amount, in all other populations except for Bedouin B and Ethiopian Jews. As expected, the English and Tuscan populations have a very low Middle-Eastern-related component. Whereas LINADMIX and PHCP have high uncertainty in estimating the relative contributions of Megiddo_MLBA and Iran_ChL, the results and simulations nevertheless suggest that additional Zagros-related ancestry has penetrated the region since the Bronze Age (Methods S1I). Except for the populations with the highest Zagros-related component, PHCP estimates lower magnitudes of this component (Figure S4A), and therefore detection by PHCP of a Zagros-related ancestry is likely an indication for the presence of this component. Indeed, examining the results of LINADMIX and PHCP on all four source populations (Figure S4), we observe a relatively large Zagros-related component in many Arabic-speaking groups, suggesting that gene flow from populations related to those of the Zagros and Caucasus (although not necessarily from these specific regions) continued even after the Iron Age (Methods S1I).
Altogether, the patterns of the present-day populations reflect demographic processes that occurred after the Bronze Age and are plausibly related to processes known from the historical literature (Methods S1I). These include an Eastern-African-related component that is present in Arabic-speaking groups but is lower in non-Ethiopian Jewish groups, as well as Zagros-related contribution to Levantine populations, which is highest in the northernmost population examined, suggesting a contribution of populations related to the Zagros even after the Bronze and Iron Ages.













Estimating the ancestry proportions in present-day Middle Eastern populations with substantial sub-Saharan African admixture (as well as multiple sources of admixture from different parts of the Mediterranean), is difficult. We addressed the problem by developing two statistical techniques and then testing the robustness of our inference on the basis of a comparison between these methods, simulations, and perturbations of the input (see STAR Methods; Methods S1F–S1K). We examined 14 present-day populations that are historically or geographically linked to the Southern Levant and tested the contributions of East Africa, Europe, and the Middle East (combining Southern Levant Bronze Age populations and Zagros-related Chalcolithic ones) to their ancestry. We found that both Arabic-speaking and Jewish populations are compatible with having more than 50% Middle-Eastern-related ancestry. This does not mean that any these present-day groups bear direct ancestry from people who lived in the Middle-to-Late Bronze Age Levant or in Chalcolithic Zagros; rather, it indicates that they have ancestries from populations whose ancient proxy can be related to the Middle East. The Zagros- or Caucasian-related ancestry flow into the region apparently continued after the Bronze Age. We also see an Eastern-African-related ancestry entering the region after the Bronze Age with an approximate south-to-north gradient. In addition, we observe a European-related ancestry with the opposite gradient (north-to-south). Given the difficulties in separating the ancestry components arriving from the Southern Levant and the Zagros, an important direction for future work will be to reconstruct in high resolution the ancestry trajectories of each present-day group, and to understand how people from the Southern Levant Bronze Age mixed with other people in later periods in the context of processes known from the rich archaeological and historical records of the last three millennia.






https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6

Angela
29-05-20, 19:27
Hi Angela my question again. Why does this paper on the Bronze Age Southern Levant suggests that the East African geneflow entered the Levant after the Bronze age by using the East African admixture in modern Levantine people? How do they know? I'm a bit confused.

In a daily mail article, the researchers stated that they don't know when
African and European genes first made it into the genomes of modern-day inhabitants of the Levant.












https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6

I guess my question would be: if you don't know when certain ancestry entered an area, why would you test it using a modern reference sample which has experienced additional admixture and drift. They say they don't have a sample from the appropriate East African period. Ok. They may not have a sample from the period of the Arab slave trade, but they have older East African samples. Haber used them.

I won't say more because I haven't yet gone over this paper and supplement with a fine tooth comb as I did the Haber paper. I hope I have a chance this afternoon.

Maciamo
29-05-20, 19:43
The main point of this paper is the migration of people from the Zagros and/or Caucasus to the Levant between 2500–1000 BCE. It's surprising that the authors fail to mention anything about the Akkadian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire) (c. 2334 – 2154 BCE). The paper only says:

"In much of the Late Bronze Age, the region was ruled by imperial Egypt, although in later phases of the Iron Age it was controlled by the Mesopotamian-centered empires of Assyria and Babylonia."

AFAIK, neither the Assyrians nor the Babylonians to their south controlled the Levant - let alone the Southern Levant, which is the focus of this study - during the Bronze Age. Only the Neo-Babylonian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_Empire) managed such a feat, but that was only very briefly in the 6th century BCE in what was already the Classical antiquity.

The period of the Akkadian Empire is IMO the best candidate for the diffusion of people from northern Mesopotamia (along the Zagros and southern Caucasus) to the Levant. It may not have been the Akkadians themselves, but maybe the people they displaced during their expansion. In any case, the Akkadians had a major influence in the northern Levant, imported cedar from Lebanon, etc.

The main issue with later periods is that the Southern Levant was under Egyptian rule during the New Kingdom (c.1550 to c. 1180 BCE), so I don't see how "invaders" could have settled in the region without written record. It must have been prior to 1550 BCE. That only leaves that Akkadian Empire or the Old Assyrian Empire (2025–1522 BCE). The Assyrians did expand briefly to the whole Levant under Shamshi-Adad I (1808–1776 BCE), but I doubt that this was long enough to have significantly changed the genetic make-up of a region that was hardly changed by over 1000 years of Greek, Roman and Byzantine rule.

That brings me back to the hypothesis that it was probably a mass migration of tribes displaced by the Akkadians and/or Assyrians.

Shahmiri
30-05-20, 06:33
Ancient Akkadians didn't live in the Zagros and/or Caucasus, people who lived in the north of Zagros were either Hurrians or Indo-Europeans, especially Indo-Iranians, we see many elements of Indo-Iranian culture from at least 17th century BC in Mitanni, this culture could be related to Kassites who lived in the Central Zagros, it has also some similarities to the culture of Sea People in the ancient Egyptian sources.

kingjohn
30-05-20, 09:03
https://phys.org/news/2020-05-canaanites-insight-ancient-genomes.html

Anfänger
30-05-20, 09:27
Ancient Akkadians didn't live in the Zagros and/or Caucasus, people who lived in the north of Zagros were either Hurrians or Indo-Europeans, especially Indo-Iranians, we see many elements of Indo-Iranian culture from at least 17th century BC in Mitanni, this culture could be related to Kassites who lived in the Central Zagros, it has also some similarities to the culture of Sea People in the ancient Egyptian sources.

Indoiranians definitly didn't live in Zagros or Caucasus at this time, they may have cross it to reach the Mitanni empire but to be more precise they were probably Indo-Aryans when we go by language, nothing Iranian about them. Iranian tribes settle in modern Iran around 1200 BC.

Aslan irani hasti? Agar hasti ye javab be zabane farsi bede ;)

Shahmiri
30-05-20, 10:18
Indoiranians definitly didn't live in Zagros or Caucasus at this time, they may have cross it to reach the Mitanni empire but to be more precise they were probably Indo-Aryans when we go by language, nothing Iranian about them. Iranian tribes settle in modern Iran around 1200 BC.

Aslan irani hasti? Agar hasti ye javab be zabane farsi bede ;)

As an Iranian, would you please tell me why you believe it was Indo-Aryan, not Indo-Iranian?!

In wikipedia we read about Mitanni:
The numeral aika "one" is of particular importance because it places the superstrate in the vicinity of Indo-Aryan proper as opposed to Indo-Iranian or early Iranian (which has "aiva") in general.

The fact is that in all Northwestern Iranian languages, such as Kurdish, Talysh, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Baluchi and etc, the Iranian word for "one" is from proto-Iranian *Haykas (Persian yek), not *Haywas (Persian yaw).

Bale, man Irani hastam.

Anfänger
30-05-20, 10:31
As an Iranian, would you please tell me why you believe it was Indo-Aryan, not Indo-Iranian?!

In wikipedia we read about Mitanni:

The fact is that in all Northwestern Iranian languages, such as Kurdish, Talysh, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Baluchi and etc, the Iranian word for "one" is from proto-Iranian *Haykas (Persian yek), not *Haywas (Persian yaw).

Bale, man Irani hastam.

Because it is the main hypothesis according to linguistic evidence we have. Iranian tribes reached northern Iran about 1200BC. We have samples with BMAC and steppe ancestry from this region they are very close to modern Iranians.
Why should we take credit for Indo-Aryan Mitanni, when Iranian civilization is one of the oldest and richest in the world ?

Shahmiri
30-05-20, 10:53
Because it is the main hypothesis according to linguistic evidence we have. Iranian tribes reached northern Iran about 1200BC. We have samples with BMAC and steppe ancestry from this region they are very close to modern Iranians.
Why should we take credit for Indo-Aryan Mitanni, when Iranian civilization is one of the oldest and richest in the world ?

Iranian tribes (Scythians and Cimmerians) came to Iran about 800 BC, not 1200 BC, I don't talk about Iranians, not even proto-Iranian but Indo-Iranians who lived in Matiene in the northwest of Iran (north of Zagros and south of Caucasus). I'm a historian, not a follower of pan-Iranism, Iranian civilization dates back to about 7th century BC.

Anfänger
30-05-20, 11:30
Iranian tribes (Scythians and Cimmerians) came to Iran about 800 BC, not 1200 BC, I don't talk about Iranians, not even proto-Iranian but Indo-Iranians who lived in Matiene in the northwest of Iran (north of Zagros and south of Caucasus). I'm a historian, not a follower of pan-Iranism, Iranian civilization dates back to about 7th century BC.

What are you talking about Mr.Historian ? With Iranian tribes I obviously meant Persians,Medes and Parthians not freacking steppe dwellers. There are no Indoiranians prior to 1200BC in northern modern Iran. Matiene is obviously too young to be relevant in this discussion. Now it is pan-iranism to say that Iranian civilization is one of the oldest and richest in the world? Mr.Historian go and read up the definition pan-iranism again. Iranian civilization starts in Yaz-culture 1500BC. You have a huge problem with dates and the relevant migrations in this topic. Everything you talk about is too young to be relevant.

Now back to the topic there is nothing that indicates that Indo-Iranians were involved in this migration into the Levant because if they were there would be sizable steppe ancestry.

Edit: Oh i see. You are probably the same person as Cyrus account on this forum. My bad that I even started a conversation with you. Mr. Proto-Germanic from Iran hahaha.

Maciamo
30-05-20, 13:11
Ancient Akkadians didn't live in the Zagros and/or Caucasus, people who lived in the north of Zagros were either Hurrians or Indo-Europeans, especially Indo-Iranians, we see many elements of Indo-Iranian culture from at least 17th century BC in Mitanni, this culture could be related to Kassites who lived in the Central Zagros, it has also some similarities to the culture of Sea People in the ancient Egyptian sources.

The Akkadians bordered the Zagros and South Caucasus. My argument is that their expansion and pressure on their neighbour would have displaced part of the region's population to the Levant.

The paper clearly shows that those people who migrated from the Zagros-Caucasus to the Levant were not Indo-European genetically.

Progon
30-05-20, 13:28
There's a problem with the "Somali" they find in the Levant too. Who says that it arrived in the Levant as "Somali" like, perhaps with East African slave women?

Somali's are 40% West Eurasian like. Some older studies said it was "Sardinian" like.

These papers by less established researchers are not inspiring a lot of confidence.

I want to see what reference they're using for European Late Neolithic. If they're using a heavily steppe admixed sample, no wonder Tuscans come out the way they do. Try it with Villanova R1 and see what happens.

Christ, it shouldn't need a hobbyist to point out these issues.

There is no record so far that Somali-like people have been ever enslaved by anyone, even conquering them was extremely troublesome.

Progon
30-05-20, 13:32
The main point of this paper is the migration of people from the Zagros and/or Caucasus to the Levant between 2500–1000 BCE. It's surprising that the authors fail to mention anything about the Akkadian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire) (c. 2334 – 2154 BCE). The paper only says:

"In much of the Late Bronze Age, the region was ruled by imperial Egypt, although in later phases of the Iron Age it was controlled by the Mesopotamian-centered empires of Assyria and Babylonia."

AFAIK, neither the Assyrians nor the Babylonians to their south controlled the Levant - let alone the Southern Levant, which is the focus of this study - during the Bronze Age. Only the Neo-Babylonian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_Empire) managed such a feat, but that was only very briefly in the 6th century BCE in what was already the Classical antiquity.

The period of the Akkadian Empire is IMO the best candidate for the diffusion of people from northern Mesopotamia (along the Zagros and southern Caucasus) to the Levant. It may not have been the Akkadians themselves, but maybe the people they displaced during their expansion. In any case, the Akkadians had a major influence in the northern Levant, imported cedar from Lebanon, etc.

The main issue with later periods is that the Southern Levant was under Egyptian rule during the New Kingdom (c.1550 to c. 1180 BCE), so I don't see how "invaders" could have settled in the region without written record. It must have been prior to 1550 BCE. That only leaves that Akkadian Empire or the Old Assyrian Empire (2025–1522 BCE). The Assyrians did expand briefly to the whole Levant under Shamshi-Adad I (1808–1776 BCE), but I doubt that this was long enough to have significantly changed the genetic make-up of a region that was hardly changed by over 1000 years of Greek, Roman and Byzantine rule.

That brings me back to the hypothesis that it was probably a mass migration of tribes displaced by the Akkadians and/or Assyrians.

Assyrian Empire was by far way greater than Neo-Babylonian Empire. It included Egypt as well. A bunch of Phoenicians because of Assyrian pressure took a fleet and founded Carthage on the shores of Tunisia to run away from Assyrian cruelty.

Maciamo
30-05-20, 13:37
Assyrian Empire was by far way greater than Neo-Babylonian Empire. It included Egypt as well. A bunch of Phoenicians because of Assyrian pressure took a fleet and founded Carthage on the shores of Tunisia to run away from Assyrian cruelty.

You are talking about the Neo-Assyrian Empire (911–609 BCE), which did take over the Levant and even Egypt at its apex in 671 BCE, not the Old Assyrian Empire (2025-1522 BCE) that matches the time frame of this study.

Shahmiri
30-05-20, 14:29
The Akkadians bordered the Zagros and South Caucasus. My argument is that their expansion and pressure on their neighbour would have displaced part of the region's population to the Levant.

The paper clearly shows that those people who migrated from the Zagros-Caucasus to the Levant were not Indo-European genetically.

The question is not that who caused the migration but who were the immigrants, it seems to be clear that Semitic people didn't migrate from the Zagros and South Caucasus to the Levant, the paper talks about the 3rd and 2nd millennium BC when Indo-European immigrants came to this region, I don't know why you say they couldn't be Indo-European.

http://uupload.ir/files/efu8_mitanni.jpg

Maciamo
30-05-20, 16:18
The question is not that who caused the migration but who were the immigrants, it seems to be clear that Semitic people didn't migrate from the Zagros and South Caucasus to the Levant, the paper talks about the 3rd and 2nd millennium BC when Indo-European immigrants came to this region, I don't know why you say they couldn't be Indo-European.
http://uupload.ir/files/efu8_mitanni.jpg

Just look at the haplogroups from this study. The migrants were primarily J1, with minorities of E1b1b, J2, T1a and only one R1b. That blend looks almost stereotypically Semitic.

Btw, the map you posted is from the Mitanni period (1500-1300 BCE), so once again after the migration period in the study (2500-1500 BCE). Obviously the Mitanni were Indo-European and the other IE people to their north were Proto-Armenians. We already have Proto-Armenian DNA, and they had a lot of R1b. So it's obvious that the South Caucasians who migrated to the Levant left before the Proto-Armenians arrived. It could also be that the Proto-Armenians and Mitanni pushed them away toward the Levant. They would have been crushed between the Assyrians to their south and the Mitanni coming from the east and the Proto-Armenians coming from the north or west.

Progon
30-05-20, 16:43
You are talking about the Neo-Assyrian Empire (911–609 BCE), which did take over the Levant and even Egypt at its apex in 671 BCE, not the Old Assyrian Empire (2025-1522 BCE) that matches the time frame of this study.

That's true, but i was referring to the timeline of Neo-Babylonian Empire since you mentioned it.

Shahmiri
30-05-20, 18:21
Just look at the haplogroups from this study. The migrants were primarily J1, with minorities of E1b1b, J2, T1a and only one R1b. That blend looks almost stereotypically Semitic.

Btw, the map you posted is from the Mitanni period (1500-1300 BCE), so once again after the migration period in the study (2500-1500 BCE). Obviously the Mitanni were Indo-European and the other IE people to their north were Proto-Armenians. We already have Proto-Armenian DNA, and they had a lot of R1b. So it's obvious that the South Caucasians who migrated to the Levant left before the Proto-Armenians arrived. It could also be that the Proto-Armenians and Mitanni pushed them away toward the Levant. They would have been crushed between the Assyrians to their south and the Mitanni coming from the east and the Proto-Armenians coming from the north or west.

As you read in the paper: "The majority of the samples date to the Middle Bronze III-Late Bronze I (ca. 1650–1400 BCE)." It is the same time that we see the influence of Indo-Iranian culture in the Levant, from Mitanni culture in Syria to the culture of Hyksos people in Egypt.
Indo-European haplogroups should be those ones which relate to ancient Indo-European people.

kingjohn
30-05-20, 18:30
by the way i notice now when i looked
in supplemental table S:1
that one female from the baqah jordan
dated to late bronze age 1424-1288 BC
carry mtdna L0f2b :cool2:

Angela
30-05-20, 18:39
by the way i notice now when i looked
in supplemental table S:1
that one female from the baqah jordan
dated to late bronze age 1424-1288 BC
carry mtdna L0f2b :cool2:

Same thing happened with Spain, yes, some early SSA maternal haplogroups.

It's highly unlikely, imo, that the SSA entered the Levant only with the Arab Slave Trade, although that may be when the majority of it arrived.

Shahmiri
31-05-20, 06:55
It is good to read about Hyksos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos


The chariot had initially been introduced to the Middle East by Indo-Iranians. The Hyksos were also responsible for introducing the horse into Egypt, and rode them in all their wars. Chariots had earlier played a key role in the conquests by the Hittites in Anatolia, the Indo-Iranians in northern India, and the Mycenaeans in Greece.
Contemporary with the Hyksos, there was a widespread Indo-Aryan expansion in central and south Asia. The arrival of the Hyksos in Egypt, along with the arrival of the Hurrians in Syria and the Kassites in Babylonia, has been connected with this migration. The Hyksos used the same horsedrawn chariot as the Indo-Aryans, and Egyptian sources mention a rapid conquest. While the majority of the Hyksos are thought to have been Semitic, the Hyksos are usually believed to have contained Indo-Europeans and Hurrians among the leadership. According to William L. Ochsenwald, it is certain that the Hyksos contained Hurrians who were under Indo-Aryan rule and influence. Claude Frédéric-Armand Schaeffer states that the Hyksos were related to the Hurrians and the Mitanni. While the names of the earliest or "Lesser Hyksos" rulers are Semitic, names of later or "Greater Hyksos" rulers have been identified as having Indo-Aryan, Hurrian or uncertain etymologies. These names are associated with the second wave of Hyksos invasion in the 17th century BC, which was composed of a mixed group of well organized warriors that were different from the earlier Asiatic Hyksos princes that arrived in Egypt in the 18th century BC. John Bright cites this as evidence that there might have been an Indo-Aryan element among the Hyksos. Philip Khuri Hitti wrote that the Hyksos were a mixed group which in addition to Semites included Hurrians, Hittites, Mitanni and Habiru. Hitti connected the arrival of the Hyksos with the Indo-European migrations at the time, and cites the introduction of the horse and the chariot by them to Egypt as evidence of their Indo-European connections.

http://uupload.ir/files/dsg1_hyksos.gif

kingjohn
31-05-20, 16:07
someone run them( snp) it look like.....:thinking:( other forum)

Y chr Haplogroup assignments:

I7182 Yehud J2b
I2189 Megiddo_MLBA_family4 R1a1a1:F3551/V8042/PF6231
I2190 Megiddo_MLBA J2a1a1a2b2a1a:Z509/PF5155
I2195 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2:FGC1677/Z2326
I2198 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4849/Z1855
I2201 Abel T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a2:CTS6280
I3965 Hazor J1a2a1a2d2b2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4881/YSC0000235
I3966 Hazor E1b1b1b2a1a:M34/PF2022/L797/Z1146/PF2016
I4517 Megiddo_IA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c2:S16807/S21060
I4518 Megiddo_MLBA T1a1a1b2:CTS2214
I4519 Megiddo_MLBA_family1 J2a1a1a2b2a1a:M92
I4521 Megiddo_IBA J2b
I4525 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2:AM01339/PF4826/Z1874
I6461 Baqah_family6 J1a2a1a2d2b2bhttps://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4843/Z2324
I6464 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c3:FGC63758/HU80
I6566 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1:FGC8223/V7510/Y3441
I6569 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I6459 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I6460 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3985 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3987 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1:FGC8223/V7510/Y3441
I3705 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3706 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I3703 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I6928 Yehud_low_coverage J2b
I6923 Yehud J2b
I7003 Yehud J2b
I10093 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2bhttps://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4843/Z2324
I10101 Megiddo_MLBA_family3 J1a2a1a2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~C58/PAGE8/PF4698/PAGES00008
I10104 Megiddo_MLBA J1
I10106 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4854/YSC0000183/Z2320
I10264 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2:CTS11719/PF4863/Z1888
I10266 Megiddo_MLBA J2a2a1a:Z28375
I10268 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c2:S21060
I10269 Megiddo_MLBA_low_coverage R
I10359 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2:CTS2453/PF4806/Z2319/FGC1677/Z2326
I10361 Megiddo_MLBA_family3 J1a2a1:AM01312/CTS4376/Z1861
I8187 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4881/YSC0000235
I8188 Megiddo_MLBA_family2 J1a2a1a2d2b:Z1853
S10769.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b1b1b2a1a:M34/PF2022/L797/Z1146/PF2016
S10770.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b1b1b2a1a1:L29/PAGE47/PAGES00047
S10768.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA R1b1a1b:M269


List (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CNmkPGy76QyFUUWs3VRhhy6I8FFFM3g4/view?usp=sharing) of derived and ancestral snps for each sample.

Angela
31-05-20, 20:58
someone run them( snp) it look like.....:thinking:( other forum)

Y chr Haplogroup assignments:

I7182 Yehud J2b
I2189 Megiddo_MLBA_family4 R1a1a1:F3551/V8042/PF6231
I2190 Megiddo_MLBA J2a1a1a2b2a1a:Z509/PF5155
I2195 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2:FGC1677/Z2326
I2198 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4849/Z1855
I2201 Abel T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a2:CTS6280
I3965 Hazor J1a2a1a2d2b2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4881/YSC0000235
I3966 Hazor E1b1b1b2a1a:M34/PF2022/L797/Z1146/PF2016
I4517 Megiddo_IA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c2:S16807/S21060
I4518 Megiddo_MLBA T1a1a1b2:CTS2214
I4519 Megiddo_MLBA_family1 J2a1a1a2b2a1a:M92
I4521 Megiddo_IBA J2b
I4525 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2:AM01339/PF4826/Z1874
I6461 Baqah_family6 J1a2a1a2d2b2bhttps://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4843/Z2324
I6464 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c3:FGC63758/HU80
I6566 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1:FGC8223/V7510/Y3441
I6569 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I6459 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I6460 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3985 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3987 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1:FGC8223/V7510/Y3441
I3705 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b:FGC8182/V5320/Y2920/FGC8185/ZS219/Y5761
I3706 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I3703 Baqah J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c4b1c:FGC8224/Y3442
I6928 Yehud_low_coverage J2b
I6923 Yehud J2b
I7003 Yehud J2b
I10093 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2bhttps://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4843/Z2324
I10101 Megiddo_MLBA_family3 J1a2a1a2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~C58/PAGE8/PF4698/PAGES00008
I10104 Megiddo_MLBA J1
I10106 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4854/YSC0000183/Z2320
I10264 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2:CTS11719/PF4863/Z1888
I10266 Megiddo_MLBA J2a2a1a:Z28375
I10268 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2c2:S21060
I10269 Megiddo_MLBA_low_coverage R
I10359 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2:CTS2453/PF4806/Z2319/FGC1677/Z2326
I10361 Megiddo_MLBA_family3 J1a2a1:AM01312/CTS4376/Z1861
I8187 Megiddo_MLBA J1a2a1a2d2b2b2https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fanthrogenica.com%2Fimages%2 Fsmilies1%2Ftongue.gif&t=1590932930&ymreqid=71eea14b-6150-f8cb-1ca3-19001601a800&sig=jsvZ3JrMasjB0E.eMjHiuQ--~CF4881/YSC0000235
I8188 Megiddo_MLBA_family2 J1a2a1a2d2b:Z1853
S10769.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b1b1b2a1a:M34/PF2022/L797/Z1146/PF2016
S10770.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA E1b1b1b2a1a1:L29/PAGE47/PAGES00047
S10768.E1.L1 Megiddo_MLBA R1b1a1b:M269


List (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CNmkPGy76QyFUUWs3VRhhy6I8FFFM3g4/view?usp=sharing) of derived and ancestral snps for each sample.

Are they sure about that R1a1a1? Somebody get lost? :)

kingjohn
31-05-20, 21:30
Are they sure about that R1a1a1? Somebody get lost? :)

no he probably arrived from the steppe ( according to davidski blog)

The Megiddo samples, dated to 1600-1500 BCE, include a trio of interesting outliers with significant ancestry from the steppe. One of these individuals is a male, I2189, who belongs to Y-haplogroup R and probably R1a. So he might also be of Indo-Aryan origin.

Another Megiddo male, S10768, belongs to R1b-M269 and probably shows a few per cent of steppe ancestry. I've already discussed how R1b and steppe ancestry may have ended up in the Bronze Age Near East in a couple of my previous posts


p.s
about the person who run those samples ( snp calls)
i think he knows and have enough experience .....

Angela
31-05-20, 22:18
Interesting. After the peak of this Canaanite city's power, and just before the Battle of Megiddo and the domination by the Egyptians.

I need to do some digging around.

Angela
31-05-20, 23:13
Well, 12189, which the authors just called "R", and 12200 are siblings, children, so they better be almost the same autosomally, or something is wrong.

kingjohn
31-05-20, 23:56
Interesting. After the peak of this Canaanite city's power, and just before the Battle of Megiddo and the domination by the Egyptians.

I need to do some digging around.

Amazing isn't it :thinking: 😉

Shahmiri
01-06-20, 07:15
no he probably arrived from the steppe ( according to davidski blog)

The Megiddo samples, dated to 1600-1500 BCE, include a trio of interesting outliers with significant ancestry from the steppe. One of these individuals is a male, I2189, who belongs to Y-haplogroup R and probably R1a. So he might also be of Indo-Aryan origin.

Another Megiddo male, S10768, belongs to R1b-M269 and probably shows a few per cent of steppe ancestry. I've already discussed how R1b and steppe ancestry may have ended up in the Bronze Age Near East in a couple of my previous posts


p.s
about the person who run those samples ( snp calls)
i think he knows and have enough experience .....

I certainly agree but it shows R1a1a1 and R1b-M269 were Indo-Iranian haplogroups, not Proto-Indo-European.

halfalp
01-06-20, 09:25
Middle-East Chalcolithic/Bronze Age probably was a paradise of civilization for Steppe people, or any other foreigners when they came there. Huge cities-states with high structures and sculptures, lots of people, hugh wealth... not that hard to think that any Steppe lineage could have lost itself into this new world of many possibilities.

Shahmiri
01-06-20, 11:48
Middle-East Chalcolithic/Bronze Age probably was a paradise of civilization for Steppe people, or any other foreigners when they came there. Huge cities-states with high structures and sculptures, lots of people, hugh wealth... not that hard to think that any Steppe lineage could have lost itself into this new world of many possibilities.

Of course you know these samples with R1a and R1b haplogroups date back to about 1500 BC when most of this paradise of civilization was under the rule of Indo-Europeans such as Hittites and Mitanni.

halfalp
01-06-20, 12:14
Of course you know these samples with R1a and R1b haplogroups date back to about 1500 BC when most of this paradise of civilization was under the rule of Indo-Europeans such as Hittites and Mitanni.

It was not, i presume. Indo-Europeans in Middle-East were at last an opportunistic luck. There was many more other ethnics and languages in the near-by.

kingjohn
01-06-20, 14:30
Well, 12189, which the authors just called "R", and 12200 are siblings, children, so they better be almost the same autosomally, or something is wrong.

from the paper:
The two outliers from Megiddo (three including the sibling pair) provide additional evidence for the timing and origin of gene flow into the region. The three were found in close proximity to each other at Level K-10, which is radiocarbon dated to 1581–1545 BCE (domestic occupation) and 1578–1421 BCE (burials; both ± 1 s) (Martin et al., 2020 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
, Toffolo et al., 2014 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
), whereas the bone of one of the three (I10100) was directly dated (1688–1535 BCE, ± 2Σ). The reason these individuals are distinct from the rest is that their Caucasus- or Zagros-related genetic component is much higher, reflecting ongoing gene flow into the region from the northeast (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3); Figure S2 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#figs2)B). The Neolithic Levant component is 22%–27% in I2200, and 9%–26% in I10100. These individuals are unlikely to be first generation migrants, as strontium isotope analysis on the two outlier siblings (I2189 and I2200) (Methods S1 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/32e9acdb-caf1-4e20-8b11-67edc3d41dc3/mmc1)A) suggests that they were raised locally. This implies that the Megiddo outliers might be descendants of people who arrived in recent generations. Direct support for this hypothesis comes from the fact that in sensitive qpAdm modeling (including closely related sets of outgroups), the only working northeast source population for these two individuals is the contemporaneous Armenia_MLBA, whereas the earlier Iran_ChL and Armenia_EBA do not fit (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). The addition of Iran_ChL to the set of outgroups does not change this result or cause model failure. Finally, no other Levantine group shows a similar admixture pattern (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). This shows that some level of gene flow into the Levant took place during the later phases of the Bronze Age and suggests that the source of this gene flow was the Caucasus

Angela
01-06-20, 14:52
from the paper:
The two outliers from Megiddo (three including the sibling pair) provide additional evidence for the timing and origin of gene flow into the region. The three were found in close proximity to each other at Level K-10, which is radiocarbon dated to 1581–1545 BCE (domestic occupation) and 1578–1421 BCE (burials; both ± 1 s) (Martin et al., 2020 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
, Toffolo et al., 2014 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
), whereas the bone of one of the three (I10100) was directly dated (1688–1535 BCE, ± 2Σ). The reason these individuals are distinct from the rest is that their Caucasus- or Zagros-related genetic component is much higher, reflecting ongoing gene flow into the region from the northeast (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3); Figure S2 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#figs2)B). The Neolithic Levant component is 22%–27% in I2200, and 9%–26% in I10100. These individuals are unlikely to be first generation migrants, as strontium isotope analysis on the two outlier siblings (I2189 and I2200) (Methods S1 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/32e9acdb-caf1-4e20-8b11-67edc3d41dc3/mmc1)A) suggests that they were raised locally. This implies that the Megiddo outliers might be descendants of people who arrived in recent generations. Direct support for this hypothesis comes from the fact that in sensitive qpAdm modeling (including closely related sets of outgroups), the only working northeast source population for these two individuals is the contemporaneous Armenia_MLBA, whereas the earlier Iran_ChL and Armenia_EBA do not fit (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). The addition of Iran_ChL to the set of outgroups does not change this result or cause model failure. Finally, no other Levantine group shows a similar admixture pattern (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). This shows that some level of gene flow into the Levant took place during the later phases of the Bronze Age and suggests that the source of this gene flow was the Caucasus

Thanks, kingjohn, I read that. I was referring to the fact that I've heard that bloggers claim the "R" child supposedly has "steppe" ancestry. I then heard that the other "outlier" samples don't show it. "IF" bloggers have found real steppe ancestry in that child, then it should be in the sibling. It's possible to see differing levels, perhaps, but none?

I probably shouldn't have mentioned it as it is double hearsay, but that was the genesis of my comment.

real expert
01-06-20, 21:57
by the way i notice now when i looked
in supplemental table S:1
that one female from the baqah jordan
dated to late bronze age 1424-1288 BC
carry mtdna L0f2b :cool2:


It's not a female but a male with the Y-DNA J1a2b.

kingjohn
01-06-20, 23:38
Ok a male
Sorry 🤔
Regards
Adam


P.s
Even if he is a male that doesnt change
The fact that he carry subsharan mtdna
And it is cool to see it was present in bronze age remains from jordan 😉

Shahmiri
02-06-20, 06:11
from the paper:
The two outliers from Megiddo (three including the sibling pair) provide additional evidence for the timing and origin of gene flow into the region. The three were found in close proximity to each other at Level K-10, which is radiocarbon dated to 1581–1545 BCE (domestic occupation) and 1578–1421 BCE (burials; both ± 1 s) (Martin et al., 2020 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
, Toffolo et al., 2014 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#)
), whereas the bone of one of the three (I10100) was directly dated (1688–1535 BCE, ± 2Σ). The reason these individuals are distinct from the rest is that their Caucasus- or Zagros-related genetic component is much higher, reflecting ongoing gene flow into the region from the northeast (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3); Figure S2 (https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30487-6#figs2)B). The Neolithic Levant component is 22%–27% in I2200, and 9%–26% in I10100. These individuals are unlikely to be first generation migrants, as strontium isotope analysis on the two outlier siblings (I2189 and I2200) (Methods S1 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/32e9acdb-caf1-4e20-8b11-67edc3d41dc3/mmc1)A) suggests that they were raised locally. This implies that the Megiddo outliers might be descendants of people who arrived in recent generations. Direct support for this hypothesis comes from the fact that in sensitive qpAdm modeling (including closely related sets of outgroups), the only working northeast source population for these two individuals is the contemporaneous Armenia_MLBA, whereas the earlier Iran_ChL and Armenia_EBA do not fit (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). The addition of Iran_ChL to the set of outgroups does not change this result or cause model failure. Finally, no other Levantine group shows a similar admixture pattern (Table S2 (https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cell.2020.04.024/attachment/b60ed559-f2ff-4e1d-9fef-dc0247e6c04e/mmc3)). This shows that some level of gene flow into the Levant took place during the later phases of the Bronze Age and suggests that the source of this gene flow was the Caucasus

About Megiddo it is good to mention it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biridiya Biridiya was the ruler of Megiddo in the 14th century BC. Biridiya authored five of the Amarna letters correspondence. He is also mentioned in the corpus from the city of 'Kumidu', the Kamid al lawz.

Survey of Ancient India, page 132: Iranian affinity is clear in Biridiya, for we have Bardiya, younger son of Cyrus; whatever the sense may be the d points to Old Persian affinities.

The Indian Historical Quarterly, Page 578: Of clear Iranian forms Mironov stresses Biridiya, on the score of the d corresponding to an original gh, distinctive of Persian.

You can read more about it in Origin of Vedas, by K S Krishnan:

http://uupload.ir/files/4ox2_mitanni.jpg

real expert
02-06-20, 11:10
Ok a male
Sorry ������
Regards
Adam


P.s
Even if he is a male that doesnt change
The fact that he carry subsharan mtdna
And it is cool to see it was present in bronze age remains from jordan ������



I didn't say anything about the African mtDNA, my correction referred to the gender of this individual. Hey, we have a woman from Central Asia in Bronze Age Levant this is even more surprising than a Levantine? carrying an African mtDNA. Keep in mind Egyptians and Nubians had lots of interactions with Canaan during the Bronze Age. Who knows? This guy could be also an Egyptian who resided in Baqah Jordan. Anyway, I'd love to see how this man looks like genetically speaking. There is a possible Israelite from Iron Age II.

kingjohn
02-06-20, 12:14
Some eurogenes k13 values: (someone sent me) check this individual :smile:

Yehud_low_coverage:I7179,0.00,0.00,0.00,4.24,36.64 ,27.23,8.66,0.00,0.00,4.86,5.08,13.30,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I7180,0.00,0.00,11.82,14.35,45. 75,25.19,0.00,0.32,0.00,0.80,1.78,0.00,0.00

Yehud:I7182,2.22,0.00,8.58,13.32,45.92,26.79,2.95, 0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I7184,0.00,4.04,17.72,8.08,49.6 3,17.84,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.69

Megiddo_MLBA_family4:I2189,0.70,19.49,8.37,27.31,3 2.32,8.63,2.27,0.00,0.65,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.26

Megiddo_MLBA:I2190,0.00,0.00,11.28,21.95,45.02,15. 85,2.95,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.24,0.71,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I2195,0.00,0.00,12.44,20.84,50.21,12. 99,1.04,0.00,0.72,0.00,0.00,1.75,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I2198,0.00,0.00,17.80,16.93,46.23,15. 21,0.72,0.00,0.11,0.00,0.00,3.00,0.00

Megiddo_I2200:I2200,8.40,9.41,8.27,28.83,29.33,9.9 4,3.70,0.86,0.04,0.87,0.00,0.00,0.35

Abel:I2201,0.00,0.00,14.97,18.99,45.60,17.88,0.39, 0.75,0.23,0.00,0.00,1.19,0.00

Hazor:I3965,0.00,0.00,13.47,22.39,46.49,14.50,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.83,1.07,1.25,0.00

Hazor:I3966,0.00,0.00,11.69,18.43,48.95,18.00,0.00 ,0.00,1.34,0.00,0.72,0.87,0.00

Megiddo_IA:I4517,3.11,0.00,12.06,17.85,44.82,19.37 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.33,1.47,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I4518,0.00,0.00,13.94,21.94,41.30,20. 20,0.00,0.50,0.00,0.18,0.00,1.94,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_family1:I4519,0.00,0.00,17.81,16.04,4 8.29,15.17,0.00,0.00,2.45,0.00,0.24,0.00,0.00
Megiddo_IBA:I4521,0.71,0.00,13.16,9.03,51.60,22.91 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.59,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I4525,0.00,0.00,15.03,17.19,47.53,18. 82,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.69,0.15,0.58,0.00

Baqah_low_coverage:I6463,0.00,4.08,0.00,9.45,44.71 ,26.99,0.00,0.00,5.48,0.00,2.40,6.89,0.00

Baqah:I6565,0.00,0.00,8.85,18.80,47.87,21.13,0.10, 0.00,0.00,0.00,2.12,1.13,0.00

Baqah_family6:I6461,0.00,0.00,15.02,16.65,49.41,17 .29,0.00,0.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.43

Baqah:I6462,0.00,0.00,12.48,13.50,54.16,16.60,0.00 ,1.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.06,0.00

Baqah:I6464,0.00,0.00,11.07,11.73,56.71,19.39,0.00 ,1.11,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Baqah:I6564,0.82,0.00,10.73,16.99,48.39,20.69,0.66 ,0.00,0.00,0.41,0.00,1.31,0.00

Baqah:I6566,0.00,0.00,13.60,12.83,52.56,18.07,1.16 ,0.97,0.00,0.00,0.01,0.80,0.00

Baqah:I6567,0.00,0.00,14.87,17.12,46.91,19.80,0.00 ,0.07,0.00,0.00,0.75,0.48,0.00

Baqah:I6569,0.00,0.00,9.17,17.35,51.76,20.69,0.00, 0.69,0.15,0.20,0.00,0.00,0.00

Baqah:I6570,0.00,0.00,13.81,15.89,49.11,18.94,0.00 ,0.72,0.00,0.00,0.49,1.03,0.00

Baqah:I6571,0.00,0.00,13.91,15.38,47.74,20.68,0.00 ,0.28,0.00,1.14,0.00,0.87,0.00

Baqah:I6572,0.00,0.00,14.59,15.58,46.47,20.67,0.71 ,0.74,0.00,0.52,0.20,0.51,0.00

Baqah:I6459,0.00,0.00,16.37,16.59,47.79,16.02,0.99 ,0.63,0.00,0.00,0.61,1.00,0.00

Baqah:I6460,0.00,0.00,12.18,17.88,47.33,19.63,0.00 ,2.51,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.47,0.00

Baqah:I3707,0.00,0.00,14.34,11.49,51.10,20.71,0.00 ,0.53,0.00,0.00,0.57,1.25,0.00

Baqah:I3985,0.00,0.00,12.46,11.98,55.73,17.72,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.00,0.59,0.00

Baqah:I3986,0.00,0.00,12.34,17.88,51.21,16.97,0.00 ,0.00,0.74,0.00,0.43,0.43,0.00

Baqah:I3987,0.00,0.00,9.84,16.93,51.46,18.98,0.22, 1.42,0.05,0.47,0.45,0.18,0.00

Baqah:I3705,0.00,0.00,15.45,13.59,48.96,19.43,0.00 ,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.02,1.46,0.00

Baqah:I3706,0.00,1.23,13.83,16.41,50.95,15.40,1.09 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.53,0.57,0.00

Hazor:I3832,0.00,0.00,14.49,10.75,52.04,21.46,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.26,0.00

Baqah:I3703,0.00,0.00,13.29,18.35,52.13,14.65,0.00 ,1.13,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.45,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I6932,0.00,0.00,14.84,0.00,51.6 7,30.74,1.79,0.78,0.18,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I6925,0.00,0.00,3.17,17.73,41.3 2,37.79,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I6924,0.00,3.15,4.27,17.58,38.3 3,32.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.73,0.57,0.00,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I6928,0.00,0.00,21.96,6.04,45.1 4,23.96,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.44,0.00,1.46,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I7002,0.00,1.98,11.04,13.84,45. 84,25.54,0.00,1.72,0.00,0.00,0.06,0.00,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I6922,0.00,0.00,15.10,11.26,47. 02,19.44,0.62,0.00,0.11,6.44,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yehud:I6923,0.00,0.00,16.34,10.29,44.23,29.02,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.11,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yehud:I7003,0.00,0.00,17.85,5.17,51.81,21.88,3.01, 0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.28,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10092,1.34,0.00,11.99,12.57,48.31,22 .85,0.00,1.75,0.00,0.00,0.70,0.48,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10093,0.42,0.00,11.26,13.21,48.41,22 .87,0.27,0.90,0.00,0.00,0.24,2.42,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_low_coverage:I10096,1.78,1.05,0.00,27 .52,40.55,29.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10097,0.00,0.00,13.64,15.91,51.44,17 .39,0.00,0.26,0.00,0.00,0.30,1.07,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10099,3.04,0.00,8.09,20.51,48.38,17. 57,0.00,0.91,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.50,0.00

Megiddo_I10100:I10100,15.48,10.19,2.79,28.89,21.57 ,9.40,5.25,0.00,0.00,3.10,3.33,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_family3:I10101,4.91,0.00,15.18,10.69, 50.11,15.79,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.32,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10104,0.00,0.00,6.17,8.26,60.32,22.1 7,2.03,0.00,0.00,1.06,0.00,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10106,0.00,0.00,8.56,17.54,51.27,20. 76,0.00,0.97,0.00,0.00,0.90,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10263,0.00,2.82,4.54,17.63,49.61,21. 15,0.00,0.00,2.43,0.00,0.32,1.51,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10264,0.00,0.00,9.51,20.42,46.80,19. 51,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.92,1.84,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10265,0.00,0.00,7.39,15.37,58.91,13. 04,0.00,5.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.26,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I10266,0.00,0.00,18.34,22.48,46.48,11 .75,0.00,0.00,0.20,0.75,0.00,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_low_coverage:I10267,0.00,0.00,1.97,2. 58,55.74,30.67,4.61,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,4.43

Megiddo_MLBA:I10268,0.00,0.00,15.91,15.58,48.48,17 .38,0.00,0.25,0.67,0.10,0.72,0.91,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_low_coverage:I10269,4.46,0.00,21.98,2 3.15,6.09,15.05,28.45,0.00,0.00,0.82,0.00,0.00,0.0 0

Megiddo_MLBA_family3:I10270,0.00,0.00,12.94,16.43, 47.27,18.69,2.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.46,0.00,0.00
Megiddo_MLBA:I10359,0.00,0.00,6.04,26.93,44.42,18. 88,0.00,1.74,1.32,0.00,0.58,0.09,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_family3:I10361,0.00,0.00,25.27,0.00,5 1.89,16.42,6.42,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Yehud_low_coverage:I7177,0.00,0.00,8.14,0.00,68.88 ,22.97,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:I8187,0.00,0.00,12.71,11.93,53.43,20. 04,0.00,0.39,0.00,0.31,0.00,1.19,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA_family2:I8188,0.00,0.00,15.19,11.96,5 3.40,15.71,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.33,3.41,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:S10771.E1.L1,0.00,0.00,14.17,19.63,47 .68,16.45,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.07,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:S10769.E1.L1,0.00,0.00,9.67,20.98,49. 60,17.44,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.65,0.67,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:S10770.E1.L1,0.00,0.00,7.03,21.05,51. 01,16.56,1.42,0.02,0.81,0.00,1.62,0.49,0.00

Megiddo_MLBA:S10768.E1.L1,2.40,0.00,12.69,15.32,49 .55,17.90,0.76,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.39,0.00,0.00

Angela
02-06-20, 13:47
^^I ran Megiddo Iron Age just for the heck of it.

Just parenthetically, I honestly have to pinch myself; I am looking at the genetics of the people of Megiddo and Hazor, those almost mythical places I read about so often. :) I'm sure you've read scripture, but did you ever read "The Source" by Michener? He must have had genius researchers or some professors helping him out, because it's amazing how much he got right as a non-archaeologist.

Looks like perhaps some significant gene flow from tribal Arabs going north during the invasion period might have occurred? So, maybe all that stuff wasn't propaganda after all. Of course, the Jews are far different too.



Target: IronAgeMegiddoI4517
Distance: 1.9161% / 1.91607142



46.2
Lebanese_Christian





30.2
Saudi





6.6
Lebanese_Druze





5.4
Yemenite_Jewish





5.2
Laz





5.0
Sephardic_Jewish





0.8
French_Basque





0.6
Papuan






Distance to:
IronAgeMegiddoI4517


5.83624023
Palestinian


7.47651657
Samaritan


8.87532535
Jordanian


8.90790660
Lebanese_Christian


10.17634512
Bedouin


10.71843272
Syrian


11.74845522
Lebanese_Druze


11.94831787
Lebanese_Muslim


13.56100660
Nusayri


14.99159098
Cyprian


14.99159098
Greek_Cypriot


16.15976176
Turk_Cypriot


16.42481050
Tunisian_Jewish


16.46080496
Kurdish_Jewish


16.59787035
Egyptian


16.71634529
Libyan_Jewish


17.12021320
Iranian_Jewish


18.52263210
Saudi


18.55920526
Yemenite_Jewish


19.46903182
Assyrian


20.45469139
Sephardic_Jewish


20.89022559
Greek_Dodecanese


21.01150161
Greek_Cappadocian


21.88697329
Algerian_Jewish


22.08385609
Italian_Jewish

kingjohn
02-06-20, 14:41
Zionists not going to like it ...🤔
Megido iron age cluster with palestinians😎

bigsnake49
02-06-20, 16:30
I don't remember which book I read it in but the book made the case that the Israelites were actually coastal people from Northern Saudi Arabia that went north through the desert to what is now Israel. It had convincing arguments, I just wish I remember what they were. I do remember telling my wife that I couldn't wait to tell our Jewish friends that they were Saudis after all.

kingjohn
02-06-20, 18:28
Source: some points raised by smart person From other forum😉
Taken from paper: 👍
Area H in the north: buildings (and burials) immediately to the west of the Middle Bronze III-Late Bronze palaces of Megiddo
Level H-15, Late Bronze I.
The sampled burial, with two individuals (I10769 and I10770), was found above the monumental tomb of Level H-16; those who dug it were probably aware of this association.
The two Megiddo individuals with the next lowest Neolithic Levant component (I10769 and I10770, brothers) were found near the monumental tomb that was likely related to the palace at Megiddo, raising the possibility that they might be associated with the ruling caste. Indeed, a ruler of Taanach (a town located immediately to the south of Megiddo) mentioned in a 15th century BCE cuneiform tablet found at the site and the rulers of Megiddo and Taanach mentioned in the 14th century BCE Amarna letters (found in Egypt) carry Hurrian names (a language spoken in the northeast of the ancient Near East, possibly including the Caucasus) (Na’aman, 1994b). This provides some evidence—albeit so far only suggestive—that at least some of the ruling groups in these (and other) cities might have originated from the northeast of the ancient Near East.

P.s
Those are the 2 e-m34 brothers from tel-megido
I personally think they were probably just regular cannanites
but my mind open to a hurrian origin...
🤔

Shahmiri
02-06-20, 21:43
The two outliers from Megiddo (three including the sibling pair) provide additional evidence for the timing and origin of gene flow into the region. The three were found in close proximity to each other at Level K-10, which is radiocarbon dated to 1581–1545 BCE (domestic occupation) and 1578–1421 BCE (burials; both ± 1 s) (Martin et al., 2020

The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, page 60:

http://uupload.ir/files/zgf6_aryan.jpg

real expert
02-06-20, 22:11
I don't remember which book I read it in but the book made the case that the Israelites were actually coastal people from Northern Saudi Arabia that went north through the desert to what is now Israel. It had convincing arguments, I just wish I remember what they were. I do remember telling my wife that I couldn't wait to tell our Jewish friends that they were Saudis after all.



You have to interpret the data with caution. These Iron Age people from Meggido could be Phoenicians too and not necessarily Israelites. However, Arabs themselves appear to be originating in the Levant rather than in the Arab peninsular. Someone on anthrogenica noted that Meggido burns around the transition to the Iron age, but he thinks that a single sample during the IA that is also YDNA J1 as expected, demonstrates continuity. In my opinion, there was some kind of invasion there.

https://www.shutterstock.com/de/video/clip-1017456550-arab-bedouin-man-bandage-his-traditional-hair

So when going by the Meggido Iron Age folks, these Arab Bedouins from the Negev desert and Jordan with their classical ethnic Arab look represent ancient people from Israel.
https://www.shutterstock.com/de/video/clip-1017456550-arab-bedouin-man-bandage-his-traditional-hair

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1N_Nw_WIAAKEfo.jpg
https://mondrian.mashable.com/uploads/2016/9/12/bedouins_23.jpg/fit-in__1440x1440.jpg?signature=cQ56CBGqYidLJdR9AaxPXX kPwp8


https://mondrian.mashable.com/uploads/2016/9/12/bedouins_31.jpg/fit-in__1440x1440.jpg?signature=j7_F8Q_xpVaqP1VtamPy59 KpRt4=

real expert
02-06-20, 22:14
This Bedouin man from Jordan.
https://www.shutterstock.com/de/video/clip-1017456550-arab-bedouin-man-bandage-his-traditional-hair

https://www.shutterstock.com/de/video/clip-1017456550-arab-bedouin-man-bandage-his-traditional-hair

Angela
03-06-20, 00:10
^^I'm skeptical of that.

Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.

bigsnake49
03-06-20, 00:40
^^I'm skeptical of that.

Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.

There is a reference in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.

Angela
03-06-20, 01:24
There is a reverence in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.

God promised to make of his descendants a great nation, and the Old Testament mentions that by his twelve sons with an Egyptian wife his descendants were numerous, but they were separate from the children of Isaac.

It always seemed unfair to me, but then I find a lot of the Old Testament unfair at the least and quite often disturbing. The choosing of Hagar as a "surrogate mother" was all Sarah's idea, and sanctioned by custom, but Hagar's behavior led to jealousy on the part of Sarah, and Ismael and his mother were cast out. It works well as a symbolic tale to explain the similarities between the two peoples but yet the enmity between them as well, which is what it was doubtless meant to do.

kingjohn
03-06-20, 15:11
i am not religious
but i am not going to lie
it feel pretty cool :cool-v:
to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains :smile:
and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
(and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
is with late antiquity romans )

Anfänger
03-06-20, 15:23
i am not religious
but i am not going to lie
it feel pretty cool :cool-v:
to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains :smile:
and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
(and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
is with late antiquity romans )


Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

kingjohn
03-06-20, 15:30
Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

you should check
anthrogenica
some users there run the snp calls of those ancient :thinking:
i am pretty sure your haplogroup was found in ancient remains somewhere :cool-v:
r1b is extremely common haplogroup :)

real expert
05-07-20, 21:58
^^I ran Megiddo Iron Age just for the heck of it.

Just parenthetically, I honestly have to pinch myself; I am looking at the genetics of the people of Megiddo and Hazor, those almost mythical places I read about so often. :) I'm sure you've read scripture, but did you ever read "The Source" by Michener? He must have had genius researchers or some professors helping him out, because it's amazing how much he got right as a non-archaeologist.

Looks like perhaps some significant gene flow from tribal Arabs going north during the invasion period might have occurred? So, maybe all that stuff wasn't propaganda after all. Of course, the Jews are far different too.



Target: IronAgeMegiddoI4517
Distance: 1.9161% / 1.91607142


46.2
Lebanese_Christian





30.2
Saudi





6.6
Lebanese_Druze





5.4
Yemenite_Jewish





5.2
Laz





5.0
Sephardic_Jewish





0.8
French_Basque





0.6
Papuan






Distance to:
IronAgeMegiddoI4517


5.83624023
Palestinian


7.47651657
Samaritan


8.87532535
Jordanian


8.90790660
Lebanese_Christian


10.17634512
Bedouin


10.71843272
Syrian


11.74845522
Lebanese_Druze


11.94831787
Lebanese_Muslim


13.56100660
Nusayri


14.99159098
Cyprian


14.99159098
Greek_Cypriot


16.15976176
Turk_Cypriot


16.42481050
Tunisian_Jewish


16.46080496
Kurdish_Jewish


16.59787035
Egyptian


16.71634529
Libyan_Jewish


17.12021320
Iranian_Jewish


18.52263210
Saudi


18.55920526
Yemenite_Jewish


19.46903182
Assyrian


20.45469139
Sephardic_Jewish


20.89022559
Greek_Dodecanese


21.01150161
Greek_Cappadocian


21.88697329
Algerian_Jewish


22.08385609
Italian_Jewish





Hi Angela, could you also you run this Iron Age 14517 Megiddo sample on G25? I'd like to see how his Natufian compenent looks and what other Component he has? Peninsular Arabs score very high Natufian and relatively small Anatolian on G25.

Angela
05-07-20, 22:23
Hi Angela, could you also you run this Iron Age 14517 Megiddo sample on G25? I'd like to see how his Natufian compenent looks and what other Component he has? Peninsular Arabs score very high Natufian and relatively small Anatolian on G25.

Sorry, I never bought the G25 coordinates, so I can't use it.

Perhaps someone else on the Board can run it for you. I'd be interested in the results.

real expert
09-07-20, 09:33
^^I'm skeptical of that.

Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.



I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpGioLVWEAEw8QJ.jpg


https://arabicpost.me/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nj_jews.jpg

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lowres-picturecabinet.com/125/main/4/798341.jpg


To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?

Angela
09-07-20, 13:34
I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpGioLVWEAEw8QJ.jpg


https://arabicpost.me/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/nj_jews.jpg

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lowres-picturecabinet.com/125/main/4/798341.jpg


To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?

I agree with you; I don't think these Saudi Jews look like Samaritans or even that much like Christian Levantines. They look like Bedouin to me, with the finer, more chiseled Bedouin features. Maybe it shouldn't be so surprising. Wherever Jews lived there was some intermixture with the locals, usually through absorption of local women. It's the same situation in the Yemen, or Iraq/Iran. Even with North African Jews, many of whom are descended from exiles from Al-Andalus, I think there's a more Southern European look than a real Levantine look to them.

Gregory Fitoussi, a French actor of North African Jewish descent:love his look.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/23/70/f62370e283c837a0d28cce47fe215405.jpg

Bernard Henri Levi:

https://jrbenjamin.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/levy.jpg

https://theoldmoneybook.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/bernard-henri-levy.jpg

Bedouin have less Caucasus like ancestry, don't they? That might explain their more "Med" type features.

As for the Yemenite Jews not matching as well, these isolated communities of Jews have practiced a lot of endogamy, so they're going to drift off on their own. Look at the Sardinians. In North Africa, each specific group has drifted apart from the others. Plus, Yemeni Jews absorbed a lot of SSA over the centuries. I wouldn't expect them to be good matches.

I have problems logging in sometimes too; I don't know why.

ratchet_fan
09-07-20, 14:11
Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.

Anfänger
12-07-20, 18:26
The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.

Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

ratchet_fan
12-07-20, 18:47
Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.

Anfänger
13-07-20, 19:23
That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.

Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.

ratchet_fan
13-07-20, 19:42
Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.

That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?

Anfänger
14-07-20, 13:31
That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?

This is the Hajji-Firuz R1b guy:
12257

Hassanlu and Hajji Firuz Tepe are just 10 km or so apart. The Hassanlu sample is from a time the site was Uratian, taking into account that he has Y-DNA matches with modern Armenians he might be a Proto-Armenian. Hajji Firuz site is at the borderzone of Media Atropatene. I guess samples from Hamedan(Ecbatana) the capital of Median empire would be more significant but there are non for now.

Shahmiri
14-07-20, 14:45
Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

R1b-Z2103 is Cimmerian haplogroup, the original land of Cimmerians was in the west of Black sea, about 1,000 BC they migrated to Iran and Anatolia.

http://uupload.ir/files/z11_cimmerians.jpg

In the 7th century BC Cimmerians conquered Ellipi kingdom in modern Luristan.

If you are interested to know about the history of Iranian Lurs, I suggest that you read this great Persian article: https://www.sid.ir/fa/journal/ViewPaper.aspx?id=123386

ratchet_fan
14-07-20, 17:00
This is the Hajji-Firuz R1b guy:
12257

Hassanlu and Hajji Firuz Tepe are just 10 km or so apart. The Hassanlu sample is from a time the site was Uratian, taking into account that he has Y-DNA matches with modern Armenians he might be a Proto-Armenian. Hajji Firuz site is at the borderzone of Media Atropatene. I guess samples from Hamedan(Ecbatana) the capital of Median empire would be more significant but there are non for now.

And Media Atropatene would roughly correspond to todays Iranian Azerbaijan? I've always been curious what the Old Azari language sounded like.