The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant (Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020)

^^I'm skeptical of that.

Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.

CpGioLVWEAEw8QJ.jpg



nj_jews.jpg


798341.jpg



To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?
 
I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.

CpGioLVWEAEw8QJ.jpg



nj_jews.jpg


798341.jpg



To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?

I agree with you; I don't think these Saudi Jews look like Samaritans or even that much like Christian Levantines. They look like Bedouin to me, with the finer, more chiseled Bedouin features. Maybe it shouldn't be so surprising. Wherever Jews lived there was some intermixture with the locals, usually through absorption of local women. It's the same situation in the Yemen, or Iraq/Iran. Even with North African Jews, many of whom are descended from exiles from Al-Andalus, I think there's a more Southern European look than a real Levantine look to them.

Gregory Fitoussi, a French actor of North African Jewish descent:love his look.
f62370e283c837a0d28cce47fe215405.jpg


Bernard Henri Levi:

levy.jpg


bernard-henri-levy.jpg


Bedouin have less Caucasus like ancestry, don't they? That might explain their more "Med" type features.

As for the Yemenite Jews not matching as well, these isolated communities of Jews have practiced a lot of endogamy, so they're going to drift off on their own. Look at the Sardinians. In North Africa, each specific group has drifted apart from the others. Plus, Yemeni Jews absorbed a lot of SSA over the centuries. I wouldn't expect them to be good matches.

I have problems logging in sometimes too; I don't know why.
 
Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.
 
The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.

Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.
 
Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.
 
That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.

Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.
 
Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.

That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?
 
That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?

This is the Hajji-Firuz R1b guy:
Bildschirmfoto 2020-07-14 um 13.20.22.png

Hassanlu and Hajji Firuz Tepe are just 10 km or so apart. The Hassanlu sample is from a time the site was Uratian, taking into account that he has Y-DNA matches with modern Armenians he might be a Proto-Armenian. Hajji Firuz site is at the borderzone of Media Atropatene. I guess samples from Hamedan(Ecbatana) the capital of Median empire would be more significant but there are non for now.
 
Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

R1b-Z2103 is Cimmerian haplogroup, the original land of Cimmerians was in the west of Black sea, about 1,000 BC they migrated to Iran and Anatolia.

z11_cimmerians.jpg


In the 7th century BC Cimmerians conquered Ellipi kingdom in modern Luristan.

If you are interested to know about the history of Iranian Lurs, I suggest that you read this great Persian article: https://www.sid.ir/fa/journal/ViewPaper.aspx?id=123386
 
Could

This is the Hajji-Firuz R1b guy:
View attachment 12257

Hassanlu and Hajji Firuz Tepe are just 10 km or so apart. The Hassanlu sample is from a time the site was Uratian, taking into account that he has Y-DNA matches with modern Armenians he might be a Proto-Armenian. Hajji Firuz site is at the borderzone of Media Atropatene. I guess samples from Hamedan(Ecbatana) the capital of Median empire would be more significant but there are non for now.

And Media Atropatene would roughly correspond to todays Iranian Azerbaijan? I've always been curious what the Old Azari language sounded like.
 

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