Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people...

I think they together (perhaps with other tribes) might be known under names such as Veneti and might be original carriers of I2a2... I also think that early Slavs were in fact I2a2 Veneti... on other hand there is also mention of Serians that match spread of haplogroup I in Euroasia and seems to relate to proto-Serbs...

as for Sarmatians they are probably mix of tribes of different origin and among them also some of the tribes related to proto-Serbs and proto-Croats... note that there are also Sarmatian Venedi, and that Antes (likely derivation from tribal name Eneti, from which Veneti is also derived) are first mentioned as Sarmatian and later as being of Veneti race...



flags of most Slavic countries are rather recent... original Slavic colours are red and white...
blue got in when Peter the Great was incognito in Netherlands and was impressed by their flag... so he changed later the flag of Russia, and later other Slavic nations (except Poland) took over choice of colors for flag...

I wonder what was originally the meaning of red and white... it is known that the red and white had meaning of south and west respectively, but that doesnot explain choice of colours for flags and coats of arms... .....Veneti seems to be related to wind....so maybe red and white as fire and wind, energy and air...

as for coat of arms of Serbia (notice it is also red and white) it's hard to say, but my guesses are here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362715&postcount=101
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362844&postcount=108
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362846&postcount=109

btw. Croatian red-white checkerboard coat of arms is interesting as it is very specific and can be served to identify Croats throughout a history...
e.g. areas in Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland that were part of white Croatia seems to still have checkerboard as motive in coat of arms... you can see it repeated in many coat of arms of regions and towns there...



that is interesting idea... do you know where can one read more about that research?
Oldest found Serbian flag was from XI century and it belonged to župan Desa it had two vertical fields first blue and second red .
About coat of arms of Serbia it is no older than XVI century and it represents cross , with 4 halbediers ( kind of batle axe with handle long almoust like human height , and with crescent shaped head , on Serbian nadžak ) around it .
Croatian coat of arms represent unity of Red and White Croatia , oldest known šahovnica ( name of that coat of arms) was on wings of falcon made of iron for Croatian King Krešimir from X century .
 
I have explained on several places on this forum qwhy I think that early Slavs were dominant I2a2 with some R1a.... some of the key clues (besides correlation in direction of spread) is that non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have roughly same percentage of R1a as neigbouring Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars, while twice more than Slavic people from Montenegro.... in same time Peloponesse that was massivelly settled by Slavs has 1.8% R1 and 22% of haplogroup I, while Greek Macedonia has much more R1a (up to 30%) than any of neighbouring Slavic lands (around 15%)...in Hungary, people who originate from Slavs live in east and west of country, as Magyars entered center of that area and settled there, which clearly shows in fact that only west and east Hungary (but not center) clusters with central Ukraine, Romania and south Slavs... but oppositely from expected, hotspot of R1a is center of Hungaria while it is much lower in east and west part of it.......
Albanians did mixed with Slavs in Macedonia , and lot of Montenegro tribes are of Albanian origin : Piperi , Kuči , Kričani , ...
Most of Peloponess I is I2*B ( new I2c ) and has nothing to do with I2a2-Din
Greek Macedonia is place where most of Slavs settled : Rinhini , strumljani, Draguviti , Smoljani , Sagudati , Berziti , Velegeziti , while in Pelopones there were only Milinzi and Jezeriti . And Milinzi could be Serbian tribe of Milinčani- not Slavic but Sarmatian.
East Hungary was since III century settled by Yaziges -Sarmatian tribe. And in center Hungary ther was Slavic principality of Balaton.
 
And finaly my theory ( short version) :
There is more reliable explanation of Sarmatian origins than that given by Herodotus( that they are descendants of Amazons and Scytians).Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .
I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland - Krakow provincea Ukraine - Lviv aeria and Slovakia( Tatras )-Bielochorbatoi and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus ( Red Ruthenia , Galicia ) - Boiki or Rusini named after Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Pliny say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes ,Macedonia after XIII century), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians (North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria , G could be Chimmerian- most of them finished on Caucasus after Lidians beated them,Other higher than average densities of I occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...te-Nasidze_Ivan_et_al._2004_205.E2.80.93221-6) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there - Czech and Moravia , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family , Serbs coming from Boiki - Bohemia , Bavaria and Lusitania-Lužica in Germany ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani, Volga Tatars has high I) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia, Aragon , Basque), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Yazigian auxiliars after defeat against Marcus Aurelius- king Arthur) , Germany ( Serbs come on Balkans from river Elba-Laba , Sarland ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving - has nothing to do with Slavs .

Diferences Slavs - Serbs/Croats :Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .Slavic theory is based solely on languague , Sarmatians use to have more then one wife , while they use to fight , together with they Sarmatian wifes , Slavic wifes stayed at home briding childrens , so childrens had lurned Slavic languague , there is also other explanation that says Huns use Slavs like border guards ( it is proven Avars are ) , and small groups of Slavs transfered they languague like form of lingua Franca to conquered nations . It is proven that Slavic is very archaic - it has been spoken by small and closed group for over a millenium , it origins are proven to be around upper Pripyat.


There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans ,
its spread showing it is grouped wich indicate there was resettling in near future , while older haplogroups - E1b1b1 , G2a and mythohondrial are more evenly spreaded all over Europe.And also if I2a2 is Peleolitic old population would make more then 80% of today Serbs which is imposible - Hunic and Avaro-Slavic invasions , litle ice age and plague that killed 30% of empire population during Justinian rule.
Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K2 , which is present on Altay.
There is also some N in Serbs but not in neighboring nations , so they use to mix with some Finnic tribes.
I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Thracians were mainly J2 ( comed from Asia Minor ), E1b1, some R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Dacians were Thracian tribe and similar to them , and Panonian to Illyrians.

I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a , Slavs alos had some I2a2 , N , and E1b1
 
Oldest found Serbian flag was from XI century and it belonged to župan Desa it had two vertical fields first blue and second red .
About coat of arms of Serbia it is no older than XVI century and it represents cross , with 4 halbediers ( kind of batle axe with handle long almoust like human height , and with crescent shaped head , on Serbian nadžak ) around it .
Croatian coat of arms represent unity of Red and White Croatia , oldest known šahovnica ( name of that coat of arms) was on wings of falcon made of iron for Croatian King Krešimir from X century .

Actually no, the oldest known coats of arms (and flag) representing Croatia was different. It was, to cite from Croatian wikipedia page of "Coat of arms of Croatia" ( where you can see the two pictures ) translated "According to medieval coins that were in use on the Croatian territory, it seems that at least of 12 Century (1196) Croatian coat of arms was a [yellow or golden] six-pointed morning star (or Danica - actually planet Venera) above a [white or silver] crescent moon." [on a red flag] "...These elements of the arms are included in many Croatian noblemen [dunno who] and city coat of arms (eg coat of arms of Gradec and Zagreb (capital of Croatia), at least since the 14th century, the coat of arms of Varaždin at least since the 15th century)..."

As for noblemen families Frankopan family used this CoA until 1430 year.

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Stari_grb_Frankopana_(do_1430).JPG

" The Frankopan family ranked next to the Zrinski family in importance by virtue of their power, wealth, fame, glory and role in Croatia's public life. They were so called only by the first half of the fifteenth century because of their affinity with the Roman patrician Frangipani family. However, they were mentioned in the year 1133 (with Dujam being the first recorded name of the Frankopans) as rulers and lords of the island of Krk and part of the littoral. " Were Frankopan family a nobility with Croatian gene lines?

"Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people..."

Indeed, can this "oldest known Croatian CoA/Flag" somehow be connected with what how yes no wrote in his post

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...-and-their-DNA&p=377703&viewfull=1#post377703

To cite:

" Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...

Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english

Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....


The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

thus, Seri = day
Zorya = dawn
Sera = Dera = fleece..
Seri = day and bull



The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....


Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these

600px-Ob_watershed.png


this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....

land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...

I.png




Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart



interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


Zorya is also associated with moon


Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya



13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

thus,
Dera = Sera = fleece
Zorya = dawn
dan = day
Seri = day and bull
Sar = moon

Sar+dan = moon+day

moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")
seapeoples18.jpg




The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al [Bardawil], one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...

isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...
Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg


isn't it same motive as celtic cross?
400px-Monasterboice_12.jpg


Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart "

Is this picture representing veritable the Sarmatians?
slideshow-for-album-modern.jpg



Can we connect Croatian "oldest CoA" and "sahovnica" with coat of arms of Polish nobility?:

http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/archives/RTP/Polish1.html

Did Croats, Serbs, (or Sea people) influenced the Coat of Arms of the:

Czech Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Czech_Republic

Bulgaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria

Romania [ note the bull ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Romania

as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_heraldry with Wallachia CoA

Look at the Caucasian Avars flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars

Is the crescent moon heritage of Avars in Croatia?
 
I cannot understand this. According to wikipedia Sarmatians spoke Iranian:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scytho-Sarmatian_languages

Anyway I may not be a genetic Expert but I hope I will find a way to make people consider a theory of Sarmatian connection with I2a2. I am getting more and more confident that there is a lot of sense in this assumption.

And addressed to others - please stop posting this pointless stuff. This may be in the interest of both Croats and Serbs.

Friend, your thinking is valid, but your vision is narrowed with ethnics like Sarmatians, Slavs etc... Let me explain... It's very possible that one branch of Sarmatians, were main carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, but doesn't mean that haplogroup is "Sarmatian", not even close...I2a2 haplogroup is one of the oldest in Europe, and autohtone to Europe along with I2a1 (Sardinia), I2a2 (Most dominant in south Croats - Dalmatians, Herzegovians, up to 70%, also Serbs have around 35%, "Bosnians" 45%, Croats in general have it 45% in Croatia, but as I've said, Dalmatians and Herzegovians alone have it up to 70%), I2b (northern Germany), I1 (Scandinavia), also there is I2c haplogroup but it's very rare...

So, this haplogroup I2a2 and all I haplogroups are present in Europe from Paleolithic till today they are autohtone to Europe, you can say it's here on this continent from first homo sapiens till today so you have to be very carefull when you choose some ethnic people from past with whom you will make some connections with some of particular haplogroups, in your case I2a2.

Your thinking about Sarmatian connection to I2a2 is not wrong, it's maybe true, but you must have in mind, that Sarmatians were only a carriers of it, nothin more, means they adopted it in Europe, not brought it with them, hope you understand the point...

Later I will show some pictures and maps, I can't do that now because I must have 10 posts to post links :)

Now I want to say something to other users here, I was reading a lot of your posts and majority of you are making almost always a same mistake... you are trying to explain why some particular haplogroups is there by using present day nations history, that's a huge mistake, most serious archeologist and anthropologists avoid that assumptions, and because you are always mixing that two terms - nations & genetics, you are always making same mistakes, for example: I saw that one of the users said somethin like: "how can I2a2 be Paleolithic HG and Greeks have it only 10%, and Croats and Serbs 40%-50%" well ...haha... I mean... this question is just for laughing :) no offence to anyone...

You know why I laugh on this? Because I2a2 is Paleolithic haplogroup from paleolithic "family" of I original haplogroup, and Croats and Serbs are it's main carriers today NOT BECAUSE Croats "Invented it" but because Croats adopted it, just like any other nation in Europe adopted any other haplogroups trough past...

To ask some "blind" questions like: "Greeks are older than Croats, so how can Croats have older european haplogroup" is for laughing... Because the key form in this question is wrong, why it's wrong? Because you are mixing genetic of people with nationalities and ethnics... do you understand the point? anyone?

Greets & Peace
 
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Dale Cooper, you are possibly right in your post, but please don't offend people with statements like these:

well ...haha... I mean... this question is just for laughing :) no offence to anyone...
... do you understand the point? anyone?
Just because you said "no offense", doesn't change the fact that you offended people.
 
I2a2 haplogroup is one of the oldest in Europe

Well, I2a2 (I assume you mean I2a1b in the new nomenclature) has a TMRCA of a whopping 13,000 years ago or so... but the Eastern European flavor, known as I2a1b1a-Din, has a TMRCA of only 2,500 years or so, one of the youngest major Y-DNA clades in Europe.

Your thinking about Sarmatian connection to I2a2 is not wrong, it's maybe true, but you must have in mind, that Sarmatians were only a carriers of it, nothin more, means they adopted it in Europe, not brought it with them, hope you understand the point...

Yes, I've said something similar before, basically that it could be from the geographic fringes of the population that brought it, and since that geographic fringe was the subgroup of the larger group that expanded, that could have encouraged the expansion of the I2a-Din clade within that population. A "European Sarmatian subgroup" theory is actually more plausible to me than the idea that I2a-Din was dominant among the Sarmatians as a whole.

Good points taken together, Dale.
 
Actually this whole notion of the I2a-Din clade as peculiarly associated with the Sarmatians is rather fanciful (and not only because we don't actually have any aDNA to back it up). It's being asserted repeatedly by posters who would like the (or some of the) South Slavs to be "Sarmatians", largely on the basis of what they understand from snippets in Diodorus Siculus and Pliny... Diodorus' notion of an early "Sarmatian" destruction of "Scythia" has recently been devastated by archaeologists (Browse through the online literature at www.pontos.dk) so much so that one must ask oneself what this author could have meant by this ca. 50 BCE when the text first appeared... Perhaps he was thinking of the lambasting of Bastarnia by the Yazigi and Roxolan allies of Burebista in the years following the collapse of Mithradatus' enterprise. This was about the time of the birth of the MCRA of Din-S acc. to Ken Nordvedt's computations. The association of Pliny's Caucasus "Sarmatian" tribal units with the areas south of the Danube hardly predates Avar times. The Slavs they led were largely Din-N and S. But the thin aristocratic groups which gave the new peoples their current names may not have shared this anyway (we don't know and probably never shall).
 
Dale Cooper, you are possibly right in your post, but please don't offend people with statements like these:
Just because you said "no offense", doesn't change the fact that you offended people.

You are right and I apologize... As I've said, I did not want to offend anyone.

Good points taken together, Dale.

Thank you :)

Ok people, take look on this picture:




Genetical resarch studies in year 2000, showed that Croatian Y-chromosome population structure according to data published by Semino et al Approximately 45% of the examined Croatians originated from the Old Europeans who mostly survived the Last Glacial Maximum (LG M) in the Western Balkan refugium. Which makes Croats the main carriers of this haplogroupe in present day Europe with percentage of 45% of I2a2 haplogroup, if we look only at Dalmatians (south croatians) and herzegovians, than this haplogroup is even higher... 70%.

Haplogroup I is the oldest european haplogroup, from Paleolithic till today, it divides itself into: I2a2 (most dominant in Croatians, than "Bosnians", and than Serbs), I2b (Northern Germany), I2a1 (Sardinia) and I1 (Scandinavian dominant haplogroup), first here is a map of I haplogroup in general view:



And now here is a map for I2a2 alone from other I haplogroups:

19-haplogr423.png
 
Genetical resarch studies in year 2000, showed that Croatian Y-chromosome population structure according to data published by Semino et al Approximately 45% of the examined Croatians originated from the Old Europeans who mostly survived the Last Glacial Maximum (LG M) in the Western Balkan refugium. Which makes Croats the main carriers of this haplogroupe in present day Europe with percentage of 45% of I2a2 haplogroup, if we look only at Dalmatians (south croatians) and herzegovians, than this haplogroup is even higher... 70%.

Unfortunately, it's not clear what the admixture of the Old Europeans was, and although I agree that Haplogroup I has been in Europe since the Paleolithic, it's also fairly clear that I2a-Din has only recently expanded on the Balkans, probably from Northeastern Europe. Did an ancestor clade of I2a-Din take the Balkans refuge, meaning that it left the Balkans at one point, only to return again? It's a worthwhile hypothesis, and totally plausible. But not proven.
 
@razor, I doubt that Sarmathians and Scythians were one and the same. Too many sources made a distinguish between them. I assume that Sarmatians were another related Iranic group or even more possible that they developed as a mix between Scythians and some other Caucasus folks.
 
Of course Sarmatians and Scythians weren't "one and the same". Who says they were? Not me surely. BTW both names are basically labels for a great many distinct groups. Where we know the other names it's better to use those: like "Scoloti" "Pali" or "Paralatae" for Herodotus' "Royal Scythians", or "Jazigi" or "Roxolani" etc.. for the Sarmatians. Luckily we have enough historical and archaeological evidence to theorize about the origins of many of these peoples.
 
Of course Sarmatians and Scythians weren't "one and the same". Who says they were? Not me surely. BTW both names are basically labels for a great many distinct groups. Where we know the other names it's better to use those: like "Scoloti" "Pali" or "Paralatae" for Herodotus' "Royal Scythians", or "Jazigi" or "Roxolani" etc.. for the Sarmatians. Luckily we have enough historical and archaeological evidence to theorize about the origins of many of these peoples.

I know and I totally agree with you. Thats the same what I try to explain about the Medes. Heredotus mentions many tribes among the Medes two of them being Scythian. He also mentions the Royal Scythians who lived just in what is today Adygai and a bit further North and how they moved into Nortwest Iran (East Kurdistan) and Partitava was the King
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqqez
 
Yes. These guys were known to the Assyrians as "Ishkuza" or something like that (linguists have connected the term to the meaning "archers", which seems appropriate [on the other hand, "Sarmatians" (and "Alans") might be "lancers"(?)] Sometime after their return northward into Adigeia, there was a big internal conflict among these "Royal Scythians". The Paralatae (Pali) went westward into contemporary Ukraine, and their opponents (Diodorus and Pliny call them "Napi") returned to Central Asia. There are fascinating bits and pieces in Pliny (probably culled from the lost work of Demodamas ca. 280 BCE) which intimate how the Herodotian "Royal Scythians" accompanied by Auchatae and Catiari (the 1rst and 2nd brothers of the Scythian Foundation Legend) also emigrated back to Central Asia ca. 300 BCE and had a big destructive battle there with the "Napi". For some reason historical scholarship hasn't yet dug this out. Though archaeology accepts the mysterious disappearance of the Scythians from their Herodotian haunts at precisely that time.
 
Yes. These guys were known to the Assyrians as "Ishkuza" or something like that (linguists have connected the term to the meaning "archers", which seems appropriate [on the other hand, "Sarmatians" (and "Alans") might be "lancers"(?)] Sometime after their return northward into Adigeia, there was a big internal conflict among these "Royal Scythians". The Paralatae (Pali) went westward into contemporary Ukraine, and their opponents (Diodorus and Pliny call them "Napi") returned to Central Asia. There are fascinating bits and pieces in Pliny (probably culled from the lost work of Demodamas ca. 280 BCE) which intimate how the Herodotian "Royal Scythians" accompanied by Auchatae and Catiari (the 1rst and 2nd brothers of the Scythian Foundation Legend) also emigrated back to Central Asia ca. 300 BCE and had a big destructive battle there with the "Napi". For some reason historical scholarship hasn't yet dug this out. Though archaeology accepts the mysterious disappearance of the Scythians from their Herodotian haunts at precisely that time.

Another interesting thing is, Scyth is something like synonym for nomads. And Kurd is a foreign (non Iranic) word for nomads.
You should read the work of Valentyn Stetsyuk. In his book Scythian Onomasticon he makes big connections between Kurds and Scythians. From live style to names etc.
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Herodot.html

About the Alans, it might really sound arrogant to mention so many great tribes as ancestors of Kurds but like I already showed in the other thread and I think you red it, there is a huge Alanic tribal confederation among Kurds. Using exactly the Name Alan. I myself believe that Kurds are descend from various Scythian, and Scythian related/descend tribes like Parthians, Alans, Cimmerians, Mitannis who acted as Medes in this regions and more native tribes like Gutian, Hurro-Urartaen, Phrygian and Hethit.
 
Of course Sarmatians and Scythians weren't "one and the same". Who says they were? Not me surely. BTW both names are basically labels for a great many distinct groups. Where we know the other names it's better to use those: like "Scoloti" "Pali" or "Paralatae" for Herodotus' "Royal Scythians", or "Jazigi" or "Roxolani" etc.. for the Sarmatians. Luckily we have enough historical and archaeological evidence to theorize about the origins of many of these peoples.

Large culture like culture and land of Scythians was, cannot be homogeneous when it comes about it's people, we should look on term "Scythians" as on a people with various background on large area of euroasian steppe who shared nomad way of culture, movings and weapons as also clothes etc...

Sarmatians were european "branch" of Scythians, and if Sarmatians in Europe were in fact a carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, than they adopted it by mixing with native people who carried that haplogroup... ofcourse that native people became a "Sarmatians" later with Scythian culture...

So we can say that large culture known as Scythians, had "their" decendants Sarmatians (decendants by culture not by genes) who in the end defeated Scythians , means that if Sarmatians were carriers of I2a2 HG (and my guess would be that they were), than they are a european native people with Scythian customs, similar culture and weapons because o influence of Scythians, known as Sarmatians or european "Scythians" with european authtone gen, because there is no way that I2a2 spread itself from present day Ukraine to present day Croatia, Herzegovina, Bosnia and Serbia, but it was a opposite from that, it spread itself to area of today Ukraine from present day Croatia, Serb, BiH.

And Croats and Serbs adopted it when they came in 7th century in today countries, adopted by mixing with autohtone ex-roman empire citizens of present day area of Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia... Also it's very possible that some amount of I2a2 was brought to area of this three countries by Croats and Serbs as genetical "heritage" from Sarmatians, but majority of I2a2 gen in Serbs and Croats are results of Croatian and Serbian mixing with autohtone people of this area, mixing on such a great scale, that today Croats and Serbs have I2a2 as their dominant haplogroup.

:)
 
You say:
"there is no way that I2a2 spread itself from present day Ukraine to present day Croatia, Herzegovina, Bosnia and Serbia, but it was a opposite from that, it spread itself to area of today Ukraine from present day Croatia, Serb, BiH."
First, a small point: What you call I2a2 is now referred to as I2a1b See http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
Second: I2a1b is a relatively young clade, whose MRCA is dated at ca. 330 BCE (for the N sub group) and ca. 30 BCE (for the S sub group) cf. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf and http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2011-10/1317479125
Lastly: The most authoritative current study of the expansion of I2a1b from the Slavic homeland to South of the Danube (in the 6th and 7th century) is that of Vadim Verenic. You can read his results at http://dna-forums.org/ Look for the thread http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/11805-is-i2a2-dinaric-slavic/page__hl__heimdale__st__80 and follow the discussion
 
What razor said. (y)
 
You say:
"there is no way that I2a2 spread itself from present day Ukraine to present day Croatia, Herzegovina, Bosnia and Serbia, but it was a opposite from that, it spread itself to area of today Ukraine from present day Croatia, Serb, BiH."
First, a small point: What you call I2a2 is now referred to as I2a1b See http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html
Second: I2a1b is a relatively young clade, whose MRCA is dated at ca. 330 BCE (for the N sub group) and ca. 30 BCE (for the S sub group) cf. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf and http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2011-10/1317479125
Lastly: The most authoritative current study of the expansion of I2a1b from the Slavic homeland to South of the Danube (in the 6th and 7th century) is that of Vadim Verenic. You can read his results at http://dna-forums.org/ Look for the thread http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/11805-is-i2a2-dinaric-slavic/page__hl__heimdale__st__80 and follow the discussion

I'm calling it still I2a2, you call it I2a1b, we both know about which HG we are talking about, so... You wanna tell me that such a great amount of HG I2a2 was "transported" with Croats and Serbs from today Ukraine, all the way trough Poland to present day Croatia in this precentege of I2a2 as we have today in Croatia and Bosnia (highest in Europe)? How can that be possible? Were they traveling with Space ships? Because we are not talking about few days or years of migrations, but 4 and 5 centuries, we are talking here about 500 years of Croatian traveling from Today Ukraine, once Sarmatian lands, across Poland to Croatia...

Croats as also Serbs, brought with them only one HG... and that is R1a, that was a dominant HG of Croats and Serbs who orginally came to present day area of Cro and Ser... that's a logical conclusion, I2a2 was adopted from autohtone people of this area, I'm not speaking about "Illyrians" but about pre-croatian and pre-serbian people of this are with who croats made a contact after they came here to Croatia...

Term Illyrian is a twisted term, that's way I've said that I'm not talking about Romanized Illyrians.
 

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