Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

I have explained on several places on this forum qwhy I think that early Slavs were dominant I2a2 with some R1a.... some of the key clues (besides correlation in direction of spread) is that non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have roughly same percentage of R1a as neigbouring Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars, while twice more than Slavic people from Montenegro.... in same time Peloponesse that was massivelly settled by Slavs has 1.8% R1 and 22% of haplogroup I, while Greek Macedonia has much more R1a (up to 30%) than any of neighbouring Slavic lands (around 15%)...in Hungary, people who originate from Slavs live in east and west of country, as Magyars entered center of that area and settled there, which clearly shows in fact that only west and east Hungary (but not center) clusters with central Ukraine, Romania and south Slavs... but oppositely from expected, hotspot of R1a is center of Hungaria while it is much lower in east and west part of it.... I2a2 is dominant in all south Slavs, while the remaining haplogroups vary quite widely, thus their language and culture relationship may be due to I2a2...

all this taken together is very strong indicator that widely spread belief that R1a = Slavic should be reconsidered... you can't answer on such a set of arguments stating that claim is true or false without giving arguments for your claim.... such a reply has no sense as it is about your beliefs but not about what you base that beliefs upon....

how yes no, your posts are always fun to read, but this is my first shot at responding because you always pack so much info and speculation in all at once. Let me challenge your theory here: why is any of this consistent with the idea that I2a2=Slavic, as opposed to the conventional idea that R1a=Indo-European (including Slavic) with South Slavs having perhaps an old influence of whatever the I2a2 culture had been long ago?

Let's take your points one by one. South Slavs have about the same R1a as neighboring non-Slavs? That's somewhat expected, because R1a is broadly Indo-European, not just Slavic, it just includes Slavic. And all those other largely R1a people have less I2a, which is also expected, as they tend to be more "Neolithic" populations, as Maciamo has shown elsewhere on this forum. The hotspot of R1a in Hungary is in the center? That makes some sense... Slavs of course include I2a2, and many settling in the center could have been more dominantly R1a anyway... doesn't require that Slavic culture originate from I2a2. I2a2 is dominant in South Slavs while other haplogroups are more spread out? That indicates that there could have been a cohesive I2a2 culture in the area at some point, certainly. But again, it seems easier to explain it by showing that R1a peoples spread Slavic culture to the I2a2 peoples, and the distinctly "South" aspects of South Slavic culture may have been influenced by prior I2a2 culture, but that's about it.
 
how yes no, your posts are always fun to read, but this is my first shot at responding because you always pack so much info and speculation in all at once. Let me challenge your theory here: why is any of this consistent with the idea that I2a2=Slavic, as opposed to the conventional idea that R1a=Indo-European (including Slavic) with South Slavs having perhaps an old influence of whatever the I2a2 culture had been long ago?

R1a on Balkan is 11500 years old and in rest of east Europe around 3000-5000 years ago (Klyosov)
I2a has largest variance above Black sea where is supposed homeland of Indo-Europeans...

Etruscans were very likely R1a people (by looking at maps of their spread and spread of R1a in otherwise non R1a Italy, and also by observing hole of R1a in part of Lydia in Asia minor from which they departed to Italy) and were speakers of non-IndoEuropean language...

proto-Magyars must have been R1a as they settled center of Hungary pushing previously settled Slavs to outskirts.... language of Magyars was by some researchers related to Etruscan...

R1a can't be only Indo-Europeans as there are vast IE speaking areas in Europe where R1a is not so present... branches of I2 on other hand cover most of Europe (I2a1 south Europe, I2a2 Balkan, and I2ab Germanic areas. Together with haplogroup I1, complete Europe is covered (except Finland that is non-Indoeurpean speaking due to its N haplogroup)

Let's take your points one by one. South Slavs have about the same R1a as neighboring non-Slavs? That's somewhat expected, because R1a is broadly Indo-European, not just Slavic, it just includes Slavic.

if we trust history, south Slavs massively settled in 7th century in abandoned/depopulated areas... look description of settlement of Serbs

And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of Zachumli and Terbounia and the country of Kanalites were under the dominion of emperor of Romans, and since these countries has been made deolate by the Avars(for they had expelled from these parts the Romani who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium) therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries...

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

if the land was desolated, than imprint of settlers must be big... while R1a is in Serbia up to 15% and in same time is ancient old

Now R1a is 11500 years old in Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia, while 3000-5000 in rest of east Europe taken together...
other ancient old pocket of R1a is south Siberia where it is 22000 years old...

this indicates one of 2 scenarios:
1) R1a was already on Balkan when Serbs arrived
2) Serbs brought ancient old R1a from Siberia to Balkan in 7th century...


And all those other largely R1a people have less I2a, which is also expected, as they tend to be more "Neolithic" populations, as Maciamo has shown elsewhere on this forum.
when Maciamo starts publishing papers in area of genetics or history than we could use his papers as reference....until than saying "cause Maciamo said so" is not stonger claim than saying since "how yes no" showed, or since "sparkey" showed... on forum is easy to "show" many things...as both authors and readers do not know much about topics...

Klyosov is well established scientist, Maciamo is just forum participant...

we know from history that
In southeast Europe agrarian societies first appeared by c. 7000 BC,[16] and in Central Europe by ca. 5500 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

while Klyosov have shown that R1a is in Balkan 11500 years old, thus from 9500BC

hotspot of R1a in Hungary is in the center? That makes some sense... Slavs of course include I2a2, and many settling in the center could have been more dominantly R1a anyway... doesn't require that Slavic culture originate from I2a2.
Hungary is Pannonian plane... when stronger settlers arrive old ones can only move away... there are no mountains in which they can hide and wait till they establish friendly relations...when Hungarians entered they settled in center.... while Slavs were pushed out from center...what is so difficult to understand there?

I2a2 is dominant in South Slavs while other haplogroups are more spread out? That indicates that there could have been a cohesive I2a2 culture in the area at some point, certainly.
could be...
I2a2 matches fairly well north Illyrians...
but it also exactly matches south Slavic settlements...
 
R1a on Balkan is 11500 years old and in rest of east Europe around 3000-5000 years ago (Klyosov)

I think that the diversity of R1a in the Balkans dating back so far is something to keep in mind when considering anything to do with R1a... but I'm still not convinced that it proves that R1a is that ancient in the Balkans. Could be multiple younger migrations that happened to be diverse from one another, right? I haven't delved into Klyosov much myself, this is an interesting puzzle to solve regardless, because it doesn't match anything archaeological obviously...

I2a has largest variance above Black sea where is supposed homeland of Indo-Europeans...

What is the definition of "variance" you are using above? The center of diversity of I2a is clearly west of the Black Sea. Its earliest divergences are between the Sardinian and Western/French/Alpine branches, and a little later the Dinaric/Isles (I2a2) branches split off the latter (~15,000 years ago). And even if you meant I2a2 only, the only split that I see older than the Neolithic is between Dinaric and Isles, still west of the Black Sea. See Nordtvedt.

Etruscans were very likely R1a people (by looking at maps of their spread and spread of R1a in otherwise non R1a Italy, and also by observing hole of R1a in part of Lydia in Asia minor from which they departed to Italy) and were speakers of non-IndoEuropean language...

proto-Magyars must have been R1a as they settled center of Hungary pushing previously settled Slavs to outskirts.... language of Magyars was by some researchers related to Etruscan...

Are you saying proto-Magyars didn't come from the East? Because I tend to agree that there was probably a non-IE component of R1a, like there appears to have been a non-IE component of European R1b. What's the contradiction?

R1a can't be only Indo-Europeans as there are vast IE speaking areas in Europe where R1a is not so present... branches of I2 on other hand cover most of Europe (I2a1 south Europe, I2a2 Balkan, and I2ab Germanic areas. Together with haplogroup I1, complete Europe is covered (except Finland that is non-Indoeurpean speaking due to its N haplogroup)

There's nowhere that neither R1a nor R1b are present that is IE. Correct? So why do we need to make Haplogroup I IE and not R1b to compliment R1a?

when Maciamo starts publishing papers in area of genetics or history than we could use his papers as reference....until than saying "cause Maciamo said so" is not stonger claim than saying since "how yes no" showed, or since "sparkey" showed... on forum is easy to "show" many things...as both authors and readers do not know much about topics...

Hey now, eupedia.com is cutting edge. :cool-v:

In truth, although Maciamo is not a scholarly source like Klyosov or even Nordtvedt, he is good at using up-to-date info to support his personal speculations. I would trust some recent Maciamo speculations much more than I would trust 2-year-old speculations from a published scholar (not saying Klyosov is outdated... just as an example of why I don't mind referring to Maciamo). Take Oppenheimer... just about everything he predicted has turned out to be wrong, much of which was disproven early on by hobbyists like Maciamo.

But genetic anthropology is still in its infancy. We're probably all wrong. :embarassed:
 
I think that the diversity of R1a in the Balkans dating back so far is something to keep in mind when considering anything to do with R1a... but I'm still not convinced that it proves that R1a is that ancient in the Balkans. Could be multiple younger migrations that happened to be diverse from one another, right? I haven't delved into Klyosov much myself, this is an interesting puzzle to solve regardless, because it doesn't match anything archaeological obviously...

R1a is 3000-5000 years old in the rest of Europasia taken together apart from south Siberia and Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia...

it couldnot have been migration from various areas of Europe and east Asia as all those areas taken together still have age of 3000-5000

it could have been migration straight from Siberia without much stops till Balkan...

but history tells us that Serbs come from land Boika where they always lived and that has for its neighbour Francia...in fact, only proper candidate is Bohemia....
now history tell us, nation split in two parts: one part stayed one departuered to Balkan....
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

in south Bohemia is local hotspot of I2a2... just north of Bohemia is small Slavic nation called Sorbs... they are mostly R1a though...



What is the definition of "variance" you are using above? The center of diversity of I2a is clearly west of the Black Sea. Its earliest divergences are between the Sardinian and Western/French/Alpine branches, and a little later the Dinaric/Isles (I2a2) branches split off the latter (~15,000k years ago).
found I2a* match Celtic Veneti in Britanny and Adriatic Veneti south of Alps in north Italy... but I meant on I2a2 variance, not of I2* samples..

variance hotspots of I2a2 you can see here

ejhg2008249f4.jpg


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html


And even if you meant I2a2 only, the only split that I see older than the Neolithic is between Dinaric and Isles, still west of the Black Sea. See Nordtvedt.
ken nordtvedt can guess (giess is correct work) roughly time of split...
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

location of split is something completely different...


Are you saying proto-Magyars didn't come from the East? Because I tend to agree that there was probably a non-IE component of R1a, like there appears to have been a non-IE component of European R1b. What's the contradiction?
contradiction is in claiming that R1a in Hungary is due to Slavs and not Magyars....
there is non-IE R1b and non-IE R1a...
but is there non-IE speaking area with dominant haplogroup I?

There's nowhere that neither R1a nor R1b are present that is IE. Correct? So why do we need to make Haplogroup I IE and not R1b to compliment R1a?
R1a and R1b explains IE only taken together...
however, there are R1b dominant people who are not speraking IE and R1a dominant people who do not speak IE... and no haplogroup I dominant people who do not speak IE...
that is not a proof, but a clue...one in many

Hey now, eupedia.com is cutting edge. :cool-v:
lol

In truth, although Maciamo is not a scholarly source like Klyosov or even Nordtvedt, he is good at using up-to-date info to support his personal speculations. I would trust some recent Maciamo speculations much more than I would trust 2-year-old speculations from a published scholar (not saying Klyosov is outdated... just as an example of why I don't mind referring to Maciamo). Take Oppenheimer... just about everything he predicted has turned out to be wrong, much of which was disproven early on by hobbyists like Maciamo.
Problem with Maciamo is that,as other hobbyists (including me), he is often biased...he sees what he wants to see... in his case, by reading his posts, I got impression that he tends to favor R1b, and to dislike R1a...

But genetic anthropology is still in its infancy. We're probably all wrong. :embarassed:
Hey, speak for yourself!
:)
 
third paragraph: there are about 150 words in romanian language who are the same with words from albanian language. these are called by lingvists "thracian substratum" of romanian language. (or if u like thracian-illirian substratum;) i let you to.. to speak more...about it

I do not think that's Thracian substratum... Thracian's language was closet to Baltic languages....
that are perhaps words of Dacians...

According to Strabo, Illyrians were destroyed by Dacians, which implies that Dacians probably did partly settle conquered areas and did set own elite to rule over remaints of Illyrians... hence loan words from Dacian into Albanian...

In fact, I would not be surprised if Albanian it more Dacian than Illyrian... as it is completely alien to known Illyrian words...

Here is reference from Strabo's book

I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter=5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica
 
R1a is 3000-5000 years old in the rest of Europasia taken together apart from south Siberia and Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia...

it couldnot have been migration from various areas of Europe and east Asia as all those areas taken together still have age of 3000-5000

it could have been migration straight from Siberia without much stops till Balkan...

but history tells us that Serbs come from land Boika where they always lived and that has for its neighbour Francia...in fact, only proper candidate is Bohemia....

Very interesting observation. But still, is there any evidence of a migration that old that could correspond to a population that arose as Eastern as R1a? We see Corded Ware, which is obviously too late, and...? What was the first R1a migration?

ken nordtvedt can guess (giess is correct work) roughly time of split...
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/

location of split is something completely different...

So we base our guesses on the locations of the extant branches and what we can suppose about movements based on archaeology, yes. Do you actually think that the split of I2a2 off of I2a* occurred north of the Black Sea? That's what I was objecting to, but maybe that's not what you meant. Especially if we're finding variance of I2a2a farther northeast than the Balkans, the split could have occurred closer to the Balkans, then it could have bottlenecked northeast of there, before spreading back (pure speculation here). That is, a split closer to the Balkans, but a MRCA of I2a2a closer to Ukraine. Then the I2a2a population closer to Ukraine could have been swept up in (or initiated?) the migration into the Balkans with the Slavs later on. What do you think?

but is there non-IE speaking area with dominant haplogroup I?

R1a and R1b explains IE only taken together...
however, there are R1b dominant people who are not speraking IE and R1a dominant people who do not speak IE... and no haplogroup I dominant people who do not speak IE...
that is not a proof, but a clue...one in many

You're bringing me around to your line of thought in some things, but I still think that you're farthest off in your speculation here. If a people spread a language, we would expect that people to be present where they spread it to, even to a limited degree. It's also okay if very closely related people spoke a different language and spread to those places with them. Hence, I see consistency with R1a/R1b spreading IE languages. Yet, we find places like Wales where neither R1a nor I have significant levels, and the levels there could be explained in ways other than being among the oldest members of the population there. So why does Wales speak an IE language? If R1b is non-IE, shouldn't Wales speak something like Basque? And how did IE languages get all the way to India without the I peoples moving at all with them? (Edit: Just wanted to add this commentary: If you're right, how interesting would it be that Basques are the more foreign culture in Europe, and IE peoples the more native? That would sure frustrate some Basque nationalists.)

Problem with Maciamo is that,as other hobbyists (including me), he is often biased...he sees what he wants to see... in his case, by reading his posts, I got impression that he tends to favor R1b, and to dislike R1a...

I can understand what you're saying about Maciamo, I think he is interested in Celtic culture in particular and R1b comes with that. I dunno what my bias is, maybe I have one because I know my haplogroup? Remind me of this conversation if I ever say "I2* are the True Europeans, all you other Easterners must leave immediately!" What's your bias? :unsure:
 
Very interesting observation. But still, is there any evidence of a migration that old that could correspond to a population that arose as Eastern as R1a? We see Corded Ware, which is obviously too late, and...? What was the first R1a migration?
we can't know...
11500 ybp is significantly before neolithic time...

So we base our guesses on the locations of the extant branches and what we can suppose about movements based on archaeology, yes. Do you actually think that the split of I2a2 off of I2a* occurred north of the Black Sea? That's what I was objecting to, but maybe that's not what you meant.
I do not know where split happened..
but I see no reason to suppose it was west of Black sea, when it could have been north of it as well...

I believe I2a* is related to Veneti...


Especially if we're finding variance of I2a2a farther northeast than the Balkans, the split could have occurred closer to the Balkans, then it could have bottlenecked northeast of there, before spreading back (pure speculation here). That is, a split closer to the Balkans, but a MRCA of I2a2a closer to Ukraine. Then the I2a2a population closer to Ukraine could have been swept up in (or initiated?) the migration into the Balkans with the Slavs later on. What do you think?
dunno...
jdanel had nice theory that from Black sea I2a2 took Danube path (south of Carpathians) which leads to Bohemia and not further, while I2a2b and I2a2-(D)Isles took Dniester path (north of Carpatians)
...
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26211


You're bringing me around to your line of thought in some things, but I still think that you're farthest off in your speculation here. If a people spread a language, we would expect that people to be present where they spread it to, even to a limited degree. It's also okay if very closely related people spoke a different language and spread to those places with them. Hence, I see consistency with R1a/R1b spreading IE languages. Yet, we find places like Wales where neither R1a nor I have significant levels, and the levels there could be explained in ways other than being among the oldest members of the population there. So why does Wales speak an IE language? If R1b is non-IE, shouldn't Wales speak something like Basque? And how did IE languages get all the way to India without the I peoples moving at all with them?

well, I am not really sure about I being key IE carrier...
I know this is contrary to current findings but I was also thinking about R+I being indo-europeans from long past...and that two R+I groups were split for long time in separate areas.... perhaps it was about ice age and Balkan and Iberia refuges...one area gave R1a+I2, other R1b + I1 people...


I can understand what you're saying about Maciamo, I think he is interested in Celtic culture in particular and R1b comes with that. I dunno what my bias is, maybe I have one because I know my haplogroup? Remind me of this conversation if I ever say "I2* are the True Europeans, all your other Easterners must leave immediately!" What's your bias? :unsure:
my bias is obviously, I2a2 and R1a and Serb-related tribal names...
btw. do you know from what area does your I2* origin?
 
btw. do you know from what area does your I2* origin?

They were probably in the Emmental in Switzerland circa 1600CE. My cluster of I2* is "A," the most western of the 4 main clusters.
 
[Here's the first text]

Europe
Tracing the Croatian Name
by Zeljko Buzov, Croatia, 2002

The history of the Croatian people is a history of their name. The very records of the name of the Croats, who from time immemorial appear in numerous historical sources scattered on the vast territory of Eurasia, testify with great certainty about the existence, prehistory and origin (ethnogenesis) of the Croats, and of their migrations.

Traces of the name HRVAT (Croat) can be found in European place names scattered over a wide area, but are specially numerous in present day Austria and Slovenia. The name has, to the present day, been preserved in place names in Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro and Albania. In the tenth century the name HRVAT could be found in every nation known today as a Slavic nation. In the mid-nineteenth century a group of Eastern Orthodox Ukrainians still called themselves HORVATS (Croats). The Russian linguist and historian Derzavin believes that there is an old Russian tribe, called the Croats, in the very foundations of the Ukrainian nation, although this is suspected to be more to do with the Russian habit of adopting everything and proclaiming it as "Russian".

At the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth century White Croats still lived around Krakow (Pope John Paul II was born in Krakow as Karol Woytila. His mother's birth records state her nationality as "White Croat" The lady was born in Poland at the end of the nineteenth century and the records can be verified).

There have been various explanations of the name HRVAT (Croat). There are those who believe that in the beginning the name did not have any ethnic meaning, it simply meant a social status. Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years. The old Huravat Kingdom is, in historical sources, found under different names:

The Hittites and the Medians called it Mittanni, the Egyptians referred to it as Naharian (the land of the river, or river basin) while in Assyro-Babylonian records, on the other hand, it is known as Haniagablat. The kingdom spread across a vast territory, from the Tigris to the Mediterranean Sea, on one side, and from the Habura River to the Assyrian border with Egypt, on the other. In the fifteenth century BC it was a major power in the Middle East. On the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, west of present-day Syria, and north of the Tiberiad Sea (the Sea of Galilee), where the mighty Kingdom of Huravat once flourished, there stood a town named Arvat (Hrvat), until the Arabs conquered the whole area in the seventh century AD. The majority of the population were the Hurrits, known in historical sources as: Hurrs, Harrs, Horrs and Horrians. They peacefully migrated to Mesopotamia crossing present-day Kurdistan from which later emerged Armenia.

The elite class were the Indo-European-Asian mounted warriors and conquerors known as Mariani (incidentally, ninth century AD Latin documents call Old Croatian warriors from the Nereveta River the Mariani). The ruling class was known as the Mittanni and from that, very often, even the Kingdom of Huravat was called the Land/State of Mittanni. The Aryan Mittanni probably rode to Mesopotamia, crossing Iran, from their Aryan homeland which lies around the Caspian Sea. In that region there is, even today, a place known as Kyzil Arvat (Red Croat). The Mittanni brought business efficiency to the Hurrites, which they lacked. The result was the emergence of a new power in the Middle East. The name Huravat probably came from the word Hurrit, which was known as the Caucasian region. The Old Testament places the Hurrites in Palestine.

The Anglo-Saxon King Alfred the Great (871-901), in his translation of Orosius's History of the World uses the word Horrits for the Croats. It is believed that the Iranian province of Horrati could easily be the ancestral homeland of the Croats. In present-day Afghanistan, which the Hurrites must have crossed on their way to Mesopotamia, a group of people speak a language which the Afghans themselves call Croatian (in French: le croate). In the archives of the capital of the Hittite Kingdom of Husa, today the Turkish village Bogazkoy in Asia Minor, there still exist tablets with inscriptions in the Hurrit (proto-Croatian Huravat) language. Among other texts written on those tablets, there is a part of a translation of the Sumerian-Babylonian epic Gilgamesh into, what is supposed to be a pre-Croatian language. The hero of the epic bears the title Ban (viceroy).

The Kingdom of Huravat existed from the sixteenth to the fourteenth century BC as and independent state and then it became an integral part of the Hittite state. The Hittites had already been intermarrying with the Huravats and worshipped many of their gods. The Huravat scribes and magicians were also received in the Hittites' court. The Huravats taught the Hittites the art of writing, and the Hittites adopted the cuneiform script invented by the Sumerians. The Huravats taught them the craft of stone-cutting and the decoration of standing tomb-stones. Part of the Huravats retreated from Mesopotamia into present-day Armenia. There they found their fellow countrymen, the Hurrits. The two together formed a new state with its capital and headquarters on Van Lake. The new state, like the Mesopotamian one, was called the Kingdom of Huravat; the Persians knew them by the same name. In other foreign sources the Kingdom of Huravat is called the State of Uruatu, and in world history books the Van Empire.

According to historical sources, this other Croatian state existed from about the thirteenth to about the sixth century BC. In its own sources it is known as Bilaini; the Bible calls it Ararat. The Kingdom of Huravat, with its capital Tushpa, flourished during the tenth century BC, and very successfully resisted all Assyrian attacks. During the eighth century BC when the Assyrians were quite weak, the Kingdom of Huravat became the leading power in that part of Asia. It occupied Northern Assyria and spread to the Southern Caucasus, and from Urmia Lake to the Black Sea. At the beginning of the sixth century BC it became a part of the Maad Harhvati.
The culture of the Van Huravats, which apart from the Mesopotamian culture, had links with Mediterranean Greek culture, later influenced Armenian and Georgian culture as well (architecture, pleat design, standing tombstones, script).

In texts by the Assyrian King Tiglatapilester III, the name Huravat appears as Araquttu. Linguists agree that it is the same as the Old Iranian Harhavat, Old Persian Hara(h)uvats, Avestian, Harah(v)aiti, Indian Sarasvati, and Greek Arahozia. In all these examples and forms, the name Harahvat means (land) rich with water, rivers. From the thirteenth century BC when the Van Huravat Kingdom was founded, it is believed that on the territory of the present-day Iran and Afghanistan, there existed another Croatian state which was called Harahvati and Harahvatia where the proto-Croat Hurrite had been living.

This Croatian State is mentioned by Zoroaster, the Old Iranian teacher, reformer and founder of Zoroastrism, in the holy books of Avesta (Vendidat I, 12). In his books Zoroaster writes that one of the six immortal virtues is Harvat - well-being. The Avestian form of the word is the same in the Croatian Chakavian dialect: Haravat.

The celebrated Persian poet Firdusi, in his epic Book of Kings (which is a kind of a history of Iran), says that Zoroaster's father was an Aurvat. This word corresponds to a Croatian form of the word Arvat, which very often appears in old Croatian written records, as well as in spoken folk tradition (in Muslim folk songs there is frequent mention of: Arvat's Ajka; Mujo of the Arvats; Arvat's Mujo.) Zoroaster was probably a Harahvat-Hrvat (Croat), by origin. This can be deduced from a hymn found in the Avesta which he wrote to honour his beloved Harahvaiti: "As the tenth among the best places and settlements I, Ahuramazda, have created the beautiful Harahvaiti."
In the vicinity of the Afghanistani town of Kandahara, on the site of the former capital of the Harahvaiti state, there is a village called Haravacia. In the village, the ornaments are the same as those found in Istria and on the island of Krk, while women wear the same kind of aprons that are found in some Croatian provinces today.

[Here's the part of a second text]

"... The origin and meaning of Croatian flag can be found in the age of Mitanic-Huritic empire in 3. and 2. millennium BC. It means the oldest Old-Aryan Holy Trinity: the red is a symbol of God the Father - Barba-Darik, white is the symbol of the Holy Spirit - Pissani-Nikkal; red is the symbol of the Mother Goddess - Nina Sawushka.

This Old-Aryan religion is called "Luburistich religion" [wrong?] because its bishops were called Lubure and priests Yarani.

"Checkerboard" is the ancient mazdaistic symbol of wisdom and spirituality. In this context, red is the symbol of the sacred fire that is a symbol of worship of light and silvery white or holy water that is a symbol of reverence for life.

Corrugated wattle (in Croatian known as pleter or troplet“ (as the word ban - viceroy) were used by ancient Sumerians and Croats from prehistory until today.

It is basically intertwined with tricolor basic meaning of "eternal life". German scientists have discovered that the waves of our wattle fit under identical angle as the human genome.

Colors. In Croats, Old-Iranic and Chinese people colors are, except symbolic value, marked the side of the world: black - North, red - South, white - West, blue or green - East. ..."

____________________
[Another info]

A the time of maximum extent White Croatia in mid-seventh century, in what is now the eastern part of Bavaria over the Czech Republic, Slovakia, the southern Polish and Galicia to the west of Ukraine. Later from the 8th-10th century, “term” narrows and refers mostly to the south Poland and Moravia. Headquarters early-slavic White Croatian government was in a Hrvatu (Croat-u), that is probably today's Krakovu (Krakow) in Poland, and by the foreign records was initially ruled by Sarmatian rulers Jacobite faith. In medieval European maps it is found mostly under the Latin name Chrobatia (by Konstantin Porphyrogenetus), and is also known from the Vikings (as Krowataland), Arabic (Držwab) and other many contemporary sources. It is in the early medieval Europe the third largest country, while the Frankish empire and early Byzantine Empire.

[And another one]

Former Croat homeland and their migration
A manuscript dating back to 1370 B.C. has named the present day Croats and their language as Hurrvuhe (resembling Hrvati).

In the era of the Achaemenid, especially at the time of Cyrus II and Darius I, the name of the eastern Iranian province Harauvatya and the Croats of the ancient Iran Harauvatis and Harahvaiti have been mentioned for 12 times. In addition, two unearthed manuscripts belonging to the Croats living in the second and third centuries B.C. in ancient Iran have referred to the inhabitants of Horooouathos and Horoathoi. In the year 418, the Aryans were dubbed as Horites and Zachariasrhetor, in 559 the Aryan horse riders were referred to as Hrwts who lived in the vicinity of Krima and Azova and in the 7th century Croats were called as Slavs.
 
Itas Argis, there is dose of myth-mania in the quoted text, but core of it might be well guessed...

The majority of the population were the Hurrits, known in historical sources as: Hurrs, Harrs, Horrs and Horrians. They peacefully migrated to Mesopotamia crossing present-day Kurdistan from which later emerged Armenia.
I also relate Croats with Hurians in
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365242&postcount=269

where I claim that two bulls who carry weather god Huri and Seri are representing Hurians and Serians, and that those are early ancestors of Croats and Serbs tribal names...
I also guess that Scirii and Hirri might be same people as Serians and Hurians....

The Old Testament places the Hurrites in Palestine.

Philistines/Palestinians origin in my opinion from Peleset sea peoples and those come from Pelasgues who are pre-Hellenic inhabitants of Balkan...that could make Hurrites of Palestine related to Sherdana sea peoples whose name left single toponym - so called Serbonian bog in Egypt..

In present-day Afghanistan, which the Hurrites must have crossed on their way to Mesopotamia, a group of people speak a language which the Afghans themselves call Croatian (in French: le croate).
...
From the thirteenth century BC when the Van Huravat Kingdom was founded, it is believed that on the territory of the present-day Iran and Afghanistan, there existed another Croatian state which was called Harahvati and Harahvatia where the proto-Croat Hurrite had been living.



There is Pasthun tribe named Sarbans which is identical to name used by Byzantine emperor for Serbs...

Btw. I have recently discovered that serbo-croatian word "vatra" = fire, has same meaning only in Avestan ('atra), and related meaning in Dacian related people -Albanaians and Romanians where it has meaning of hearth, that is place where fire is made.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=366124#post366124



Colors. In Croats, Old-Iranic and Chinese people colors are, except symbolic value, marked the side of the world: black - North, red - South, white - West, blue or green - East. ..."

actually, all Slavic people had this system... author is for sure aware of that, but he needs to make Croats special...

Belarus is bela (white) + Russia = west Russia
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs came to Balkan from white (=west) Serbia... that based on his description we can match with Bohemia...

the time of maximum extent White Croatia in mid-seventh century, in what is now the eastern part of Bavaria over the Czech Republic, Slovakia, the southern Polish and Galicia to the west of Ukraine.

more or less correct... Bohemia and east Germany were probably white Serbia, which according to Byzantine emperor was neighbor to white Croatia and Frankia... tribal name Sorbs (Wends/Lusatians) likely origin from living in white Serbia..otherwise Sorbs seems to show closer relationship (genetic, linguistic, cultural) to Poles and Czechs than to Serbs... perhaps that is indicator that all Slavic people really did speak same language as late as 5th century...
 
Btw. I have recently discovered that serbo-croatian word "vatra" = fire, has same meaning only in Avestan ('atra), and related meaning in Dacian related people -Albanaians and Romanians where it has meaning of hearth, that is place where fire is made.

I can confirm that. In romanian language vatra means hearth.(place when the fire is made).
pisica se joaca pe vatra = the cat is playing on hearth.

With some expresions/contexts:
vatra parinteasca = house of my parents
vatra satului = surface of a village. (only housing
zone without land)
a îmbătrâni în vatră = to get old in hearth/house (about a girl who never marries and remains in parents house)
a cloci pe vatră = to get lazy (in a worm place near the hearth)
a fi lasat la vatra = to return home after beeing for a time in the army.
 
he sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

I think it makes lot of sense to relate Scirii and Hirri with Seri and Hurri, with Serians and Hurrians, and proto-Serbs and proto-Croats... you can read more on link bellow ...btw. before reading also note that Scirri and Hirri are among Venets/Venedes... and in Asia Minor Seri and Hurri carry weather god.. this is about Seri and Hurri being part of/related to Paphlagonia Eneti (ancestors of Veneti according to Herodotous) and living south of them in mountain Taurus (bull) area...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=440

regarding the mention of Scirii and Hirri as east Germanic tribes, well it may be indeed the case as I2a2 in Asia minor matches spread of Cimmerians also known as Gomer people (named after their eponymous ancestor Gomer from whom Germanic people origin)...

note that Veneti are also thought by some to be Germanic people... they are as I indicated many times probably also I2a2 dominant people... and early Slavs are Veneti according to Jordanes... in fact, split between I1, I2b1, I2a2-Isles and I2a2-Dinaric might correlate to split between Slavic and Germanic languages...

now, look at this...
Byzantine emperor of Serbs and Croats

The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Celtic word for "white" is "windo" which is origin of tribal name Vindelici..
The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

back to Scirri and Hirri that is Seri and Hurri
why Seri = day and Hurri = night?

The Harii (Latinized West Germanic "warriors"[1]) were a Germanic people attested by Tacitus as being a tribe in his 1st-century-AD book Germania. He describes them as painting themselves and their shields black, and attacking at night as a ghostly army, much to the terror of their opponents. Theories have been proposed connecting the Harii to the Einherjar of much later Norse mythology, and to the tradition of the Wild Hunt.
...
Regarding the Harii, Tacitus writes in Germania:
As for the Harii, quite apart from their strength, which exceeds that of the other tribes I have just listed, they pander to their innate savagery by skill and timing: with black shields and painted bodies, they choose dark nights to fight, and by means of terror and shadow of a ghostly army they cause panic, since no enemy can bear a sight so unexpected and hellish; in every battle the eyes are the first to be conquered.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harii

somewhat more recent history

The Battle of Maritsa, or Battle of Chernomen, took place at the Maritsa River near the village of Chernomen (today Ormenio in Greece) on September 26, 1371 between the forces of the Ottoman sultan Murad I's lieutenant Lala Şâhin Paşa and the Serbian army numbering some 70,000 men under the command of the king of the Serbs and the Greeks Vukašin Mrnjavčević and his brother despot Uglješa.[2][3][4][5]
Despot Uglješa wanted to make a surprise attack on the Ottomans in their capital city, Edirne, while Murad I was in Asia Minor. The Ottoman army was much smaller, but due to superior tactics (night raid on the allied camp), Şâhin Paşa was able to defeat the Serbian army and kill King Vukašin and despot Uglješa. Macedonia and parts of Greece fell under Ottoman power after this battle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa

now back to quite recent times and recent battle between Hurians and Serians

Operation Storm (Croatian, Bosnian: Operacija Oluja, Serbian: Oпeрaциja Oлуja, Operacija Oluja) is the code name given to a large-scale military operation carried out by Croatian Armed Forces, in conjunction with the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to gain control of parts of Croatia which had been claimed by separatist ethnic Serbs, since early 1991.[8]
The operation, which lasted 84 hours, was documented as the largest European land offensive since World War II.[9] It began shortly before dawn on 4 August 1995 and ended with a complete victory for the Croatian forces four days later.
...
Operation Storm caused an estimated 100,000-250,000 Serbs to flee for Republic of Srpska and Serbia; whether the exodus was forced to occur by advancing Croatian Armed Forces, or if the Krajina Serb government ordered most Serbs to flee prior to the offensive, or if there was another reason for emigration is a disputed matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm
 
The Harii (Latinized West Germanic "warriors"[1]) were a Germanic people attested by Tacitus as being a tribe in his 1st-century-AD book Germania. He describes them as painting themselves and their shields black, and attacking at night as a ghostly army, much to the terror of their opponents. Theories have been proposed connecting the Harii to the Einherjar of much later Norse mythology, and to the tradition of the Wild Hunt.
...
Regarding the Harii, Tacitus writes in Germania:
As for the Harii, quite apart from their strength, which exceeds that of the other tribes I have just listed, they pander to their innate savagery by skill and timing: with black shields and painted bodies, they choose dark nights to fight, and by means of terror and shadow of a ghostly army they cause panic, since no enemy can bear a sight so unexpected and hellish; in every battle the eyes are the first to be conquered.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harii

elite unit of nazi Croatian forces in world war 2 was Black legion, named due to wearing black uniforms...


The regular army of the NDH, the Home Guard (Domobrani), was composed of enlisted men who did not participate in Ustaše activities. The fanatical Ustaše Militia, however, organised in 1941 into five (later 15) 700-man battalions, two railway security battalions, and the elite Black Legion and Poglavnik Bodyguard Battalion (later Brigade), fought with a merciless tenacity which impressed and appalled friend and foe alike.[34]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše

attacking at night just before dawn, while attacked people are still sleeping, seems to be pattern of Croatia army in wars in 1990s... not just operation Storm, same pattern appears in operation Flash that precedes it...

Operation Flash (Croatian: Operacija Bljesak, Serbian: Операција Бљесак) was a brief offensive conducted in the beginning of May 1995 by the Croatian Army, which removed Serb forces from the self-declared Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) region of SAO Western Slavonia. The offensive was part of the later stages of the Croatian War of Independence and seen as a precursor for the larger and more ambitious Operation Storm.
The operation also resulted in a large number of ethnic Serb civilian casualties, while over 15,000 left their homes.[3][4] The Hague Tribunal was preparing a war crimes indictment against then Croatian President Franjo Tuđman for Operation Flash, but he died in 1999.[3]
...
On the early morning of 1 May, Croatian Army forces (which included elements of the 3rd Guards Brigade and 5th Guards Brigade) and Special Police units began their advance from three directions. Over 7,200 soldiers and policemen participated in the operation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flash

now, lets go back to proto-Croats...

c. 600 AD: In the first wave Croats migrated together with Avars from the region that is now (roughly) Galicia and areas of the Pannonian plain, to the province of Dalmatia ruled by the Roman Empire. Croats were led into the Roman province of Dalmatia by a group of five brothers, Klukas, Lobel, Kosenc, Muhlo and Hrvat, and their two sisters, Tuga and Buga.[Note 1][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Croatian_history

I have been speaking of the Croatians as an unequivocally Slavonic people, and this is the generally received doctrine. I believe, however, that it is not a strictly correct view. Before the tenth century the legend had arisen that the Croatians came to their new abodes from the land of White Croatia under the leadership of five brothers, Klukas, Lobel, Cosentzes, Muchlo, Chrobatos, and two sisters, Buga and Tuga. 2 This Croatian legend has a strong family resemblance to the Bulgarian legend of Krobat (or Kubrat) and his five sons, which will be related in another chapter 3 ; and I think we can hardly hesitate to suppose that Krobat and Chrobatos are the same prehistorical hero of the Hunnic nation to which the various closely related tribes of the Bulgarians, Cotrigurs, and Onogundurs belonged. If this be a true view, the name Croatia is not Slavonic, and, as a matter of fact, no probable Slavonic.
A history of the later Roman empire from Arcadius to Irene (395 AD to 800 AD) by J.B. Burry
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyoflaterro02buryuoft/historyoflaterro02buryuoft_djvu.txt

Well, I would not agree with Croatian not being Slavonic in origin...instead this indicates possible close relation between proto-Bulgars and proto-Croats....

possible relation between myths of origin of Bulgars and Croats means that if we try to place Bulgars in being Serians or Hurians, they would fit in later... an indication that this might be correct we find in description of Bulgarian medieval army

The early Bulgars were a warlike people and war was part of their everyday life, with every adult Bulgar obliged to fight. The early Bulgars were exclusively horsemen: in their culture, the horse was considered a sacred animal and received special care.
The supreme commander was the khan, who mustered the army with the help of the aristocracy. The military ranks from lowest to highest were bagain, bagatur, boil, tarkhan. The permanent army consisted of the khan's guard of select warriors, while the campaign army consisted practically of the entire nation, assembled by clans. In the field, the army was divided into right and left wings.
The Bulgars were well versed in the use of stratagems. They often held a strong cavalry unit in reserve, which would attack the enemy at an opportune moment. They also sometimes concentrated their free horses behind their battle formation to avoid surprise attacks from the rear. Like all steppe peoples, they used ambushes and feigned retreats, during which they rode with their backs to the horse, firing clouds of arrows on the enemy. If the enemy pursued disorganized, they would turn back and fiercely attack them. According to contemporary historians, the Bulgars "could see in the dark like bats"[5] and often fought at night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Bulgarian_army
 
Isn't it interesting? Warfare styles from the past and present can indicate something, but this example has two problems.

1) Night warfare in the past and especially in modern times is a totally normal common (international) thing.
2) In World War II Croats, actually Ustashas, not only wore black uniforms.

But, for me the possibility that the Croats fought in the past at night is that according to historical sources (of questionable accuracy) were skilled fighters in the mountainous terrain and fighting at night in such a field is not that abnormal. But there's no actual evidence Croats fought at night during the medieval era.
 
Isn't it interesting? Warfare styles from the past and present can indicate something, but this example has two problems.

1) Night warfare in the past and especially in modern times is a totally normal common (international) thing.
2) In World War II Croats, actually Ustashas, not only wore black uniforms.

But, for me the possibility that the Croats fought in the past at night is that according to historical sources (of questionable accuracy) were skilled fighters in the mountainous terrain and fighting at night in such a field is not that abnormal. But there's no actual evidence Croats fought at night during the medieval era.

guess you are right...
though, it does make sense to map names of two related ancient warrior tribes to words "day" and "night" according to when they attack...

and examples above show preference of modern Serbs / Croats for respectively day and night attacks... so, there might be a pattern there...it is worth investigating...
 
Threre is also an interesting theory that I heard.That Red Croats(Herzegovina,Montenegro,most of Albania) came from Carpathians, and that's where the second largest concentration of I2a is.
White Croats(modern Croatia and Bosnia) would come somewhere from southern Poland/Czech republic.


Yes acording to pop Dukljanin there was Red Croats in Herzegovina and Montenegro and even in Albania ( to Polonia which is probably Apolonia and that is city of Fier in southern Albania ) aldo many questions Pop Dukljanin I dont se any reason to. But after thet Serrbs came and settled Rascia and Bossena which is called Serbia , and also Herzegovina and Montenegro where they formed states of Dioclitia, Canale ( Konavle ) , Helm ( Hum, Zahumlje) and Narbona ( Paganija , Neretva) , which is called Primorie . So population of Herzegovina and Montenegro is mixed Red Croats and Serbs .
White Croatia was in today Czech where White Croat princes from family Slavnik were mentioned up to X century . Like White Serbia was in Boiki ( Bohemia , parts of Bavaria , and parts of Saxonia Anhalt in Germany from river Odra to river Saala ) .
About that I2a2 in Carpathians(border Ukraine , Belarus , Slovakia) , that aeria is known like Red Ruthenia , by Rusins who live there , and they are acording to patriarch Nicophorus of Constantinopolis descedants of Rascians ( Serbs from Rascia ) who escaped Balkans infront of Franks during IX century, same autor says that in same times parts of White Croats have escaped to what is today Poland around city Krakow ,up to early XX century people from this aeria called themselves Bielochorbatoi like separate nation of Poles.
 
I've just looked at some statistics. If Iranians came from Sarmatia(north shore of Black Sea) they should have more I compared to R1a.
Look here, find Iran almost at bottom of page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It shows 16.5% R1a and only 3% of I. North of Black Sea is rich in I about 30% and around 30% for R1a. If in past these numbers where sort of related in these proportions, Iran I should be around 15%. Even around 7% it still would make some sense, but 3 is very small.

Either Iranians are not from north Black Sea but more from Caspian region, or I2a2 showed in Sarmatia after Iranians left.

There is always a chance that they came from Sarmatia. Old maps are imprecise and show different things. Some of them Show Sarmatia stretching from Black Sea to Ural mountains. But it's quite improbable that Iranians came from North of Black Sea, because of huge presence of I there, and Iranians are lacking it.
Iranians havent come from Sarmatia , who told you that? Acording to Diodorus from Sicilly Sarmatians are descendants of Medes brought by Scythians during they rule in Asia ( VII century AD , in those times Asia is only below Caucasus , so Sibiria for ancient Greeks is in Europe), and they were called Solar Medes -Saramatians. Most probable descendants of Medes are Kurds and they have 25% of I2a2-Din .
 
I answered you... Iranians are actually Assiryans...
But today Iranians are mixture of Arabs and Assiryans..
Iranians dont have nothing to do with Assiryans , state of Iran do , but state of Iran do , also state of Iran have litlle conection with Iranians except it had been named after them
By the way if you are realy Jewish , why there is writen Ortodoxy or dead in Greek on bottom of every of your posts?
 
Iranians dont have nothing to do with Assiryans , state of Iran do , but state of Iran do , also state of Iran have litlle conection with Iranians except it had been named after them
By the way if you are realy Jewish , why there is writen Ortodoxy or dead in Greek on bottom of every of your posts?

I don't think Imperium Romanorum posts here anymore. But you're right, Iranians and Assyrians do not match all that closely (and it's a good assumption that modern Assyrians are the most direct descendants of ancient Assyrians). Their Haplogroup R1 distributions are much different in particular.
 
I have been told there are many Serbian related toponyms in Ukraine. I'd imagine that to some extent these are related to the territories of Slav Serbia and New Serbia established in present day Ukraine during the 18th century. Id also imagine this river name would predate those territories though.
Slavyanoserbia and Nova Srbija ( New Serbia ) , were in southeastern Ukraine - there are the cities Pančevo , Novi Bečkerek ,...
Also we should remember that river Neretva was called that way since the Roman times -Narbona , that lives us with report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped infront of Franks during IX century on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages -Northwestern Ukraine. It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased.
 

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