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Multiple choice; Where in Europe can Armenians and Georgians pass as natives?

Choose as many as apply; where in Europe can Armenians and Georgians fit?

  • Spain or Portugal

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • UK or Ireland

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • France

    Votes: 4 14.3%

  • Scandinavia

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • Poland

    Votes: 3 10.7%

  • Belgium, Netherlands, or Luxembourg

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • Germany, Switzerland, or Austria

    Votes: 3 10.7%

  • Ukraine

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Italy

    Votes: 15 53.6%

  • Sicily

    Votes: 16 57.1%

  • Greece

    Votes: 21 75.0%

  • Malta

    Votes: 11 39.3%

  • Albania

    Votes: 11 39.3%

  • Bulgaria

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • Romania

    Votes: 12 42.9%

  • Serbia

    Votes: 13 46.4%

  • Bosnia

    Votes: 10 35.7%

  • Croatia

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Macedonia

    Votes: 11 39.3%

  • Cyprus

    Votes: 18 64.3%
  • Total voters
    28
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Kardu said:
That's why according to Armenian DNA research project their closest population is Assyrian :)
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And are the Assyrians in the Bible? I don't know much about the Bible other than from religious education classes years ago so I don't remember if I ever heard about them. All I know is Armenians look like an ancient people to me, if that makes sense.
 
I meant general 'Semitic' look, although the term is linguistic
 
oreo_cookie said:
And are the Assyrians in the Bible? I don't know much about the Bible other than from religious education classes years ago so I don't remember if I ever heard about them. All I know is Armenians look like an ancient people to me, if that makes sense.
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Some passages:

Isaiah 19:23 - In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

Hosea 5:13 - When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah [saw] his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.

Micah 5:6 - And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver [us] from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Isaiah 31:8 - Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

Isaiah 23:13 - Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, [till] the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; [and] he brought it to ruin.

Isaiah 10:24 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

Isaiah 10:5 - O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Hosea 11:5 - He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

Isaiah 14:25 - That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

Ezekiel 31:3 - Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.

Isaiah 52:4 - For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

Micah 5:5 - And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

Isaiah 30:31 - For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, [which] smote with a rod.
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John Baker, Race:
The Armenians themselves, from whom the name of the subrace is derived are of remarkably uniform physical type. A good description of the Armenians was published by Chantre in 1895. Essentially the same type was represented in ancient times by the Hittites and Assyrians; indeed, the type was named Assyroid by Deniker. The fact there are strong resemblances between many Jews and Armenians was pointed out at meeting of the Royal Anthropological Society in 1895 and is generally accepted.

It is thought, however that another subrace besides the Armenid enters into the composition of the European Jewish stock, and perhaps entered into that of the Hittites and Assyrians. This is the Orientalid subrace, which includes many of those commonly called by the vague name 'Arabs'. It is seen in its most typical form in the interior of Arabia, but also among the population of Syria and Iraq. The Orientalids are slender people of moderate stature. In certain respects they differ markedly from the Armenids, for they are very dolichocranial, with prominent occiput, and the nose is narrow, with compressed alae. The selltion is situated high up towards the forehead. The profile of the nose is sometimes straight, but often somewhat aquiline(that is to say convex, with a nearly straight or slightly convave border to the nasal septum). The face is long and narrow, and tend to appear oval in front view. The lower lip is not everted. The slit between the lids of the open eye is wide on the side towards the nose, so that the visible part of the eyeball has the form of an almond, the iris is black. The hair is almost black, the skin rather swarthy.
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And what is the relation of the Armenians to the Assyrians.. two closely related groups? A common ancestor between them? Or are they the same group?
 
Kardu said:
Most probably modern Armenians are descendants of Assyrian related kin and Urartians. Here is the link of Armenian DNA project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx
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I believe in the opposite. I think that Assyrians are of Semitic origin and later heavy mixed with Urartu kind of people.
Armenians are from Anatolia-Southern Caucasus, while Georgians have always been living in the Caucasus. I think that Armenians are more mixed with Turks (and Persians/Kurds) and that's why they are darker than Georgians!

Also Armenians have much more R1b, this is what makes them 'darker' too...
 
The fact is that modern Armenians are genetically close to modern Assyrians. We can ponder over the possible explanation but this is the fact.
As for Georgians maybe G2a1 was 'always' in the Caucasus but J1* and J2a* certainly came from Anatolia. Our own historiographical sources as early as 11th century AD state that Georgians believed that their ancestors came from the South, from Aryan-Kartli, whatever that means...
And what does R1b has in common with pigmentation?
 
Kardu said:
The fact is that modern Armenians are genetically close to modern Assyrians. We can ponder over the possible explanation but this is the fact.
As for Georgians maybe G2a1 was 'always' in the Caucasus but J1* and J2a* certainly came from Anatolia. Our own historiographical sources as early as 11th century AD state that Georgians believed that their ancestors came from the South, from Aryan-Kartli, whatever that means...
And what does R1b has in common with pigmentation?
Click to expand...
I believe that G2a1 was part of the ancient Colchis, while Georgian J2a is ancient Hurrian (related folks to Caucasian Colchis) from somewhere where Kurds live nowadays. It is true what Georgian writers wrote, because with these Hurrians started everything. J2a folks were responsible for many great ancient civilizations in the Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. Also according to me without J2a folks Indo-European languages would never exist! So according to me they were responsible for proto-Indo-Europeans too!

True that haplogroups have nothing to do with pigmentation, but we all know where G2a and J2a is from. But we still don't know where the original R1b carriers are from (Central Asia? or Western Europe? etc.) and how they looked like!
 
Kardu said:
Most probably modern Armenians are descendants of Assyrian related kin and Urartians. Here is the link of Armenian DNA project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx
Click to expand...

David at Eurogenes created a MDS plot for a few populations yesterday. I superimposed the plot over a map of the general region associated with the particular populations examined.

The original MDS is also provided (2nd image).

The two Iraqi Arabs are from Baghdad and S Iraq. The Assyrians are from Lebanon, Iran, and Turkey. They represent all three principal Assyrian churches. There are a few Iranians from Khuzestan as well. This is consistent with the Behar Iranian sample, based on previous analyses.



MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg



Mid_East_Eurogenes_MDS.jpg
 
Distance between Armenians and Georgians according to Euroegenes
jemal.jpg
 
Seems like the Behar Georgians and the Project Georgians are different. The first Georgians are much representative for a Caucasian isolate, and the others seem to deivate a little, being closer to Armenians.

There aren't probably a lot of Georgians like the Behar ones. They are estrictly selected.

By the way, I already revised the West Eurasian map, and it pulls me a lot to Basques (extremely close). Not sure about the pattern followed, but it's surprising considering the high Southwestern I got in the Euro7 Calculator, very different from Basque results. It seems to work by genome wide matches or something like this, it's difficult to say.

I tell this because you Kardu surely are closer to Armenians here, while in the Euro7 Calculator you looked much Georgian. ¿right?
 
I've asked Dr.Behar about those Georgians and apparently they are not from an isolated village but all around from Central, Southern and Western Georgia. I am GE2 on the map, so not close to Armenians (Although closer than Behar's ones for sure).

Yes, all this maps, calculations and definitions still need lot of polishing...
 
Possibly there are things to fix. I see that in the West Eurasian map you are very close to the main Georgians, as well as the other including Ukranians, but not in the Caucasus and Surrounds.

In the West Eurasian I am the closest one to Basques (without clear overlap), except for 3 HGDP "ES" and 2 "FR". I'd consider I'm neither Basque or Spanish, so perhaps this one is not bad at all.
 
Knovas said:
Possibly there are things to fix. I see that in the West Eurasian map you are very close to the main Georgians, as well as the other including Ukranians, but not in the Caucasus and Surrounds.

In the West Eurasian I am the closest one to Basques (without clear overlap), except for 3 HGDP "ES" and 2 "FR". I'd consider I'm neither Basque or Spanish, so perhaps this one is not bad at all.
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Sorry, today I went through too many maps and matrixes :) Which West Eurasian Map do you mean exactly?
 
This one:

Request by Eduardo: West Eurasia

PNG image of dimensions 1&2

Dat file including 6 dimensions
 
Oops, my bad, I am actually GE5...
 
If you are GE5, then you cluster even better with the Georgians, who are mostly with Abhkasians and some Kurds :)

But in the other maps, specially the Caucassus and surrounds, you get very different position. For this reason, I assume the West Eurasian map is probably the most accurate (is the one including more samples).
 
Yes this map seems pretty accurate, and I've checked with other Georgians as well.

As for dodecad, I(DOD 790) tend to stand separate from other Georgians who team up with Abkhasians
 
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