Racism in Europe.

[kesi]

http://euobserver.com/social/22968

"a new study suggests that racism has increased in Europe, particularly towards the Roma community, Muslims, Jews and immigrants."

From my experience in Greece and England, this may be true but I sort of thought that Germany and especially France knew better. France in particular, I thought of as the epitome of an immigrant-welcoming nation (certainly polls in the past had shown that a great deal of French people viewed immigration as a positive thing).

Do you think this is a problem? I used to think it is related to the crisis but anti-Muslim hysteria in Britain I don' think has anything to do with it...

EDIT: http://euobserver.com/tickers/117466

I despair for Greece...

I just wonder why Greece has not submitted data on this issue. I mean they have a Nazi party I think it is now in parliament and its members are singling out immigrants to attack them especially the black ones, not to mention the outright racism experienced by Albanians for years. Greeks really do have an issue with racism

 

[oriental]

Turkey was doing okay till Sharia Law was imposed in Turkey. There was so much progress. Medical practice was far superior to what Europe had in the Middle Ages. During the Middle Ages in Europe "doctors" cut open the skulls of patients and used leeches. Much of European Renaissance came from Arabic knowledge and translation of Greek that were passed on by the Berbers in Spain.

My hope is that we can all live in peace and enough of the conflict. We need to control the world population and cooperate.

 

[Boss]

Turkey was doing okay till Sharia Law was imposed in Turkey. There was so much progress. Medical practice was far superior to what Europe had in the Middle Ages. During the Middle Ages in Europe "doctors" cut open the skulls of patients and used leeches. Much of European Renaissance came from Arabic knowledge and translation of Greek that were passed on by the Berbers in Spain.

My hope is that we can all live in peace and enough of the conflict. We need to control the world population and cooperate.

Much? the Arabs basically translated Aristotle and in genral were only limited to the scientific works of the Greeks (which, aside from mathematics, were pretty crap). But the Roman scholars translated Homer, Thucydides, Plato, Aeschylus, Xenophon, etc. Salutati (one of the guys basically responsible for the Renaissance in Italy) did not invite any Arab scholar to teach in Florence. He invited Chrysoloras from Constantinople (for the basic reason that the literary pantheon of Ancient Greece was known in the Eastern Roman Empire and not in Muslim Europe or the Middle East).

 

[Boss]

I just wonder why Greece has not submitted data on this issue. I mean they have a Nazi party I think it is now in parliament and its members are singling out immigrants to attack them especially the black ones, not to mention the outright racism experienced by Albanians for years. Greeks really do have an issue with racism

I am Greek and as I said I definitely think Greece is in a bad place and has been for years (I know how Albanians were treated when I was growing up in the 90s but I do think the situation is slowly improving for them - not so for Africans, Middle Easterns and South Asians).

That said, I don't think Greece is severely worse than any other Balkan country. Including Albania btw. Certainly Greece is far from being "progressive" on issues of immigration. Which is slightly bizzare given the nature and history of the Greeks (Greeks were immigrants for centuries, they were involved in multiethnic empires, they were and still are heavily involved in shipping & trading overseas, etc)

What kind of data are you talking about btw?

 

[Yetos]

I just wonder why Greece has not submitted data on this issue. I mean they have a Nazi party I think it is now in parliament and its members are singling out immigrants to attack them especially the black ones, not to mention the outright racism experienced by Albanians for years. Greeks really do have an issue with racism

Indeed, the para-Nazi party in Greece is growing, estimated to reach 20% at next elctions if crisis grow,

about Albanians in Greece, yes there is today, not an official racism, since they have pappers, or no criminals,
but seems Albanians in Greece are naughty,
About 500 000 Albanians are to be send back to Albania in next 5 years,

Reason,
40 % of common day robberies,
50 % of Bank robberies,
60% of cannabis deals are from Lazret Albania,

Albanians Health cost 9 500 000 000 E to Greece from 2004,
Albanian Illegal workers estimate to 4 500 000 000 to Greece cause ALBANIANS NEVER PAY INSURANCE STAMPS
about 150 000 vehicles belonging to Albanians have no accident coverage,
watch the links
first is shot in Helmos mountain Greece.
remember in Greece estimated to be more than 30 000 AK47 from 'pyramid' riots in Albania,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk9W_zRFH4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n607XZZAffM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVYeI-cOJU

and above all the racism of Albanians against Greece inside Greece is cherry pie, video


so at least in my lands we decide not to give a job to Albanian in the future, except those who came before 1997.

remember in 90's Greek adopted Albanians, giving them jobs, rooms, food,
but some Albanians still dream the 'Kechagia' times,

 

[Yetos]

THE DEMANDS OF AN ISLAMIST AT THE ANTI_MOVIE PROTESTS IN ATHENS,

more videos

http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=175330&catID=3

Majority of the Islamists in Greece are from ALBANIA PAKISTAN EGYPT rest Africa

 

[Yetos]

Much? the Arabs basically translated Aristotle and in genral were only limited to the scientific works of the Greeks (which, aside from mathematics, were pretty crap). But the Roman scholars translated Homer, Thucydides, Plato, Aeschylus, Xenophon, etc. Salutati (one of the guys basically responsible for the Renaissance in Italy) did not invite any Arab scholar to teach in Florence. He invited Chrysoloras from Constantinople (for the basic reason that the literary pantheon of Ancient Greece was known in the Eastern Roman Empire and not in Muslim Europe or the Middle East).

Nope, Arabs found Greek lost scripts, and developed their own mathematics, due to numeral system,
in early ISlam science grow enough. while Byzantines and west Europe where under religious darkness,
but after the early years as always Islam become a dark religion, a class of priests that cover avery science,
Islam today suffers from religion darkness, they need new mullahs. new priest, to escape the dark ages,

 

[Boss]

Nope, Arabs found Greek lost scripts, and developed their own mathematics, due to numeral system,
in early ISlam science grow enough. while Byzantines and west Europe where under religious darkness,
but after the early years as always Islam become a dark religion, a class of priests that cover avery science,
Islam today suffers from religion darkness, they need new mullahs. new priest, to escape the dark ages,

I don't even understand what this got to do with what I said. Either read people's post or don't bother quoting me. What's "nope"?

 

[kesi]

I am Greek and as I said I definitely think Greece is in a bad place and has been for years (I know how Albanians were treated when I was growing up in the 90s but I do think the situation is slowly improving for them - not so for Africans, Middle Easterns and South Asians).

That said, I don't think Greece is severely worse than any other Balkan country. Including Albania btw. Certainly Greece is far from being "progressive" on issues of immigration. Which is slightly bizzare given the nature and history of the Greeks (Greeks were immigrants for centuries, they were involved in multiethnic empires, they were and still are heavily involved in shipping & trading overseas, etc)

What kind of data are you talking about btw?

I clicked on the link you provided and if I read that right Greece was among some countries that did not submit data for this study.

I agree with you, the situation with Albs has been improving; a certain degree of integration has been reached and immigrant children are already attending school and growing up there.
Albs can be very racist too, for instance they are very racist towards the roma but will not accept this as racism but try to justify this pointing to Roma community drawbacks etc.

regarding immigration in Greece, the situation is indeed chaotic from what I have read. However, it is not entirely the fault of Greece. No country can be expected to control such vast borderline when no other EU country is willing to help and when Turkey does not help control it.

 

[kesi]

Indeed, the para-Nazi party in Greece is growing, estimated to reach 20% at next elctions if crisis grow,

about Albanians in Greece, yes there is today, not an official racism, since they have pappers, or no criminals,
but seems Albanians in Greece are naughty,
About 500 000 Albanians are to be send back to Albania in next 5 years,

Reason,
40 % of common day robberies,
50 % of Bank robberies,
60% of cannabis deals are from Lazret Albania,

Albanians Health cost 9 500 000 000 E to Greece from 2004,
Albanian Illegal workers estimate to 4 500 000 000 to Greece cause ALBANIANS NEVER PAY INSURANCE STAMPS
about 150 000 vehicles belonging to Albanians have no accident coverage,
watch the links
first is shot in Helmos mountain Greece.
remember in Greece estimated to be more than 30 000 AK47 from 'pyramid' riots in Albania,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk9W_zRFH4w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n607XZZAffM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVYeI-cOJU

and above all the racism of Albanians against Greece inside Greece is cherry pie, video


so at least in my lands we decide not to give a job to Albanian in the future, except those who came before 1997.

remember in 90's Greek adopted Albanians, giving them jobs, rooms, food,
but some Albanians still dream the 'Kechagia' times,

so Albanians are to blame essentially for everything bad in Greece, such as crime, tax evasion, fraud in medical coverage, fraud in car insurance etc etc. I am not going to answer to your long post with counterarguments because it is futile, but I hope your attitude is not shared by many people in Greece otherwise you will not learn how to address your problems.

I really hope that Greece expells all Albanian immigrants but I doubt that will happen. Firstly because they work, they are not lazy, they know exactly why they are there, to work; secondly the immigrant issue is a tool for Greece to pressure Albania.

 

[julia90]

I would say albanians, are quite integrated nowdays in italy, many of them adopr "Mimetism", in the society, because they are physically similar with italian, so if they are not in group and speak albanian, you may think one of them is italian.

Althought there is still the perception that albanians and romeanians have many criminals in them

 

[Yetos]

so Albanians are to blame essentially for everything bad in Greece, such as crime, tax evasion, fraud in medical coverage, fraud in car insurance etc etc. I am not going to answer to your long post with counterarguments because it is futile, but I hope your attitude is not shared by many people in Greece otherwise you will not learn how to address your problems.

I really hope that Greece expells all Albanian immigrants but I doubt that will happen. Firstly because they work, they are not lazy, they know exactly why they are there, to work; secondly the immigrant issue is a tool for Greece to pressure Albania.

you might call it that,
but you can also call it Henry kissinger and Turgut Ozal plan from late 70-80's
the Varkiza Βαρκιζα appartements of Uck that had been found had more than 5 000 guns, that only was enough to start Albania Greece bad feelings,
beside the effort of Spachiou to suround the islands North of Corfu was the final cut,
the racism among 2 nations day by day becomes stronger and you know it,
Greece supported Albania's enter to NATO and EU, so no pressure from Greece to Albania,
Greece build schools and hospitals in south Albania, while North Albanians ask from Greece to pay the education of Albanian immigrants in Greece to Albanian language, something that nobody does,
Albanians are good workers but untrained, at least the newcomers,
so they work with half salary cause they live 6-8 in 3 room appartment, and their Health is payed by public insurance, but Crisis stoped these, and seems things will go worse,
the half salarie job, create an anti-Albanian feeling, cause Greek people loose their jobs, and pay heavy taxes, so Albanian immigrants to Public Help.
that is why racism in Greece is growing, and will grow more reaching big %, especially in areas were where unemployment reach 30% like North Greece,
Notice that North Greece has the lowest immigration, and also the lowest racism phenomena, cause people prefer locals to work,

What to do a hard worker? when unemployment exists, his Health costs, he is not paying stamps (black work) and he is not giving receipts for his work (tax avoiding)?

Besides if they are so good, hard and well trained workers as you say, why Albania leaves to go illegal immigration?
by what I know Albania has the biggest water deposits and precipetation in Balkans, silver, iron, oil, asphalt etc and maybe is the richest country in Balkans.

 

[kesi]

you might call it that,

call it what, that the Albanians are to blame for Greece problems? I was being sarcastic or can (at the most) one million naughty Albanians, including women and children, cause the ruin of glorious Greece? this cannot be! etrified:

but you can also call it Henry kissinger and Turgut Ozal plan from late 70-80's
the Varkiza Βαρκιζα appartements of Uck that had been found had more than 5 000 guns, that only was enough to start Albania Greece bad feelings, beside the effort of Spachiou to suround the islands North of Corfu was the final cut

, or perhaps what started the bad feelings was the killing of Albanian soldiers while sleeping in Peshkepia & failure to prosecute the perpetrators, claiming south Albania as VorioEpirot, paying pensions to south Albanians only if they "declared" they were greek in origin, the greek scoop with massive overnight deportations, systematic mistreatment and ruthless exploitation etc

the racism among 2 nations day by day becomes stronger and you know it,

in the case of Albanians, it can hardly be called racism although they can use racist slurs , it is a response to Greek racism, and this only in words, not deeds like Greeks do, this is a fact

Greece supported Albania's enter to NATO and EU, so no pressure from Greece to Albania,

yes it did after a few "key" concessions such as allowing graves of fallen soldiers to be built in Albania (although as per historical sources some of these soldiers died in fight with local south Albanians , perpetrating crimes there that are remembered to this day) and forcing Albania to sign an agreement on the south territorial waters with Greece, grossly in favor of Greece.

Greece build schools and hospitals in south Albania

in this case, we remind ourselves of the saying: be aware of Greeks bearing gifts. This saying is so true in this case although I will not put down assistance from Greece that has been purely humanitarian

,

while North Albanians ask from Greece to pay the education of Albanian immigrants in Greece to Albanian language, something that nobody does,

north Albanians do that? please prove this otherwise its a lie that only north Albanians ask this, or I will believe you are a liar. How can Albanians expect this from Greece when it is trying to erase the Arvanite old speech claiming they are not a cultural minority and their speech is ancient dorian speech

Albanians are good workers but untrained, at least the newcomers, so they work with half salary cause they live 6-8 in 3 room appartment, and their Health is payed by public insurance, but Crisis stoped these, and seems things will go worse, the half salarie job, create an anti-Albanian feeling, cause Greek people loose their jobs, and pay heavy taxes, so Albanian immigrants to Public Help.

Please read this excellent study on Albanian immigrant in Greece and you will see that in no way did the Albanians took the jobs that Greeks wanted; they only were allowed work that Greeks refused to do such as agriculture, construction etc. Read it, you will see in the report that despite the Greek media and pervasisve view that Albanians were responsible for 60% of crime, with 90% of police themselves believing that rise in crime was caused by the immigrants (Albanians as usual), real figures say immigrants crime were confined to robbery, theft and beggary whereas murder and rape were crimes done by Greeks . link:

http://panteion.academia.edu/Martin...banian_emigration_and_the_Greek_labour_market

that is why racism in Greece is growing, and will grow more reaching big %, especially in areas were where unemployment reach 30% like North Greece,
Notice that North Greece has the lowest immigration, and also the lowest racism phenomena, cause people prefer locals to work,

on the contrary racism and xenophobia is strongest in the north, see above study

What to do a hard worker? when unemployment exists, his Health costs, he is not paying stamps (black work) and he is not giving receipts for his work (tax avoiding)?

by now, majority of immigrants have legal permits to stay and work in Greece, do you know that they will not obtain these if they do not prove they have paid insurance? How can Albanians give receipts when Greeks prefers to hire them in underpaid, illegal work in the black market? or are you saying that Albanians have massively created businesses in Greece

Besides if they are so good, hard and well trained workers as you say, why Albania leaves to go illegal immigration?

because of bad politics that is why I said I wish Greece finally made good and fulfilled the wish of millions of Greeks and deported all Albanians. I would watch to see who would be the next target for Greeks to blame for their problems and the deported Albanians will realize they can work in their country or alternatively immigrate to a more welcoming country.

by what I know Albania has the biggest water deposits and precipetation in Balkans, silver, iron, oil, asphalt etc and maybe is the richest country in Balkans.

it has also a corrupt government with officials wishing to become rich fast so:useless:

 

[Yetos]

call it what, that the Albanians are to blame for Greece problems? I was being sarcastic or can (at the most) one million naughty Albanians, including women and children, cause the ruin of glorious Greece? this cannot be! etrified:

, or perhaps what started the bad feelings was the killing of Albanian soldiers while sleeping in Peshkepia & failure to prosecute the perpetrators, claiming south Albania as VorioEpirot, paying pensions to south Albanians only if they "declared" they were greek in origin, the greek scoop with massive overnight deportations, systematic mistreatment and ruthless exploitation etc


in the case of Albanians, it can hardly be called racism although they can use racist slurs , it is a response to Greek racism, and this only in words, not deeds like Greeks do, this is a fact


yes it did after a few "key" concessions such as allowing graves of fallen soldiers to be built in Albania (although as per historical sources some of these soldiers died in fight with local south Albanians , perpetrating crimes there that are remembered to this day) and forcing Albania to sign an agreement on the south territorial waters with Greece, grossly in favor of Greece.

in this case, we remind ourselves of the saying: be aware of Greeks bearing gifts. This saying is so true in this case although I will not put down assistance from Greece that has been purely humanitarian

, north Albanians do that? please prove this otherwise its a lie that only north Albanians ask this, or I will believe you are a liar. How can Albanians expect this from Greece when it is trying to erase the Arvanite old speech claiming they are not a cultural minority and their speech is ancient dorian speech


Please read this excellent study on Albanian immigrant in Greece and you will see that in no way did the Albanians took the jobs that Greeks wanted; they only were allowed work that Greeks refused to do such as agriculture, construction etc. Read it, you will see in the report that despite the Greek media and pervasisve view that Albanians were responsible for 60% of crime, with 90% of police themselves believing that rise in crime was caused by the immigrants (Albanians as usual), real figures say immigrants crime were confined to robbery, theft and beggary whereas murder and rape were crimes done by Greeks . link:

http://panteion.academia.edu/Martin...banian_emigration_and_the_Greek_labour_market



on the contrary racism and xenophobia is strongest in the north, see above study

by now, majority of immigrants have legal permits to stay and work in Greece, do you know that they will not obtain these if they do not prove they have paid insurance? How can Albanians give receipts when Greeks prefers to hire them in underpaid, illegal work in the black market? or are you saying that Albanians have massively created businesses in Greece

because of bad politics that is why I said I wish Greece finally made good and fulfilled the wish of millions of Greeks and deported all Albanians. I would watch to see who would be the next target for Greeks to blame for their problems and the deported Albanians will realize they can work in their country or alternatively immigrate to a more welcoming country.

it has also a corrupt government with officials wishing to become rich fast so:useless:

I will stay to the last, we both corruption in many oirgnisations,
I don't blame Albanians, I had some of them when I was in Bussiness,
but the corrupted system allowed more than the country could afford,
that worked as a boomerang, that return back, with the face of racism,
now when the system is corrupted, the area is open for criminality,
that allowed wave of criminals from Albania to enter Greece, and Greek criminals to find assylum in Albania,
but Greece can not afford more immigration,
in 90's farmer gave jobs to Albanian that pass the mountain with bare feet, then brothers came, then parents, then children, cousin etc, that create cultural difference, no assimilation, strange demands, and black labour,
so in crisis time racism is not normal to raise,

the best relations among Greece and Albania was the time of Ismael Vlore, after that an effort was done at 80-90's but seems was not programed correct,
Today Greeks stop supporting Albanian newcomers, only few families will stay, those who have years in Greece, stability, and character, those who passed years of test of honesty and personality,
It is time for Greek communities to start helping local greeks who are unemployed, who have no Health or low insurance,
personally I don't support the para-Nazis, but i think it is time to bring back the Hellenick culture of the village of the 70's

I don't like para-nazis, cause the problem is not the foreigner, but the one who gives job to aforeigner, when a local is unemployed, so i might agree with you that Albanians are not the problem, but the corrupted system who wanted cheap labour to get richer,
I might agree saying that that the quilty is the one who gave 'black work' and not the one who accepted,

 

[Rachel Burke]

I can’t speak for Europeans but the United States was built on immigration, I can’t even imagine how bad the conditions must be for people to leave their homeland and immigrate to a country where people hate them there have been cases were Mexicans have died trying to get to the United States. I don’t know what to do about illegal immigration but I do know immigrants are people too. For the record I’m a third generation American, my great grandfather never learned to read wright or speak English.

 

[Dianatomia]

I think there is a difference between immigrants in Greece and in other parts of Europe. Immigrants in Greece are mostly illegal. They entered Greece by breaking the law and most of them manage to make a living illegally. Also, Greece is a Balkan country, and given its history is wary about immigrants from neighbouring muslim populations.

On the other hand immigrants in Northern Europe are legal and mostly from prior colonies.

Given the economic conditions of Greece and the reluctance or incapability of the Greek government to deal with illegal immigration I am not surprised that racism is rising. I would be surprised if it didn't.

Yet, I think it's clear that racism is on the rice in Northern Europe as well. If the economic conditions in Northern Europe worsen, it is very likely that we'll see violent racism.

 

[Kardu]

@ Dianatomia

I don't agree that in Northern Europe immigrants mostly come from former colonies.
While this might be true to some extent for Great Britain it's incorrect in case of Scandinavian countries, The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc.
Turks, Arabs, Berbers, Pakistanis etc. create most frictions in those countries and they aren't from former colonies.

 

[Dianatomia]

@ Dianatomia

I don't agree that in Northern Europe immigrants mostly come from former colonies.
While this might be true to some extent for Great Britain it's incorrect in case of Scandinavian countries, The Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc.
Turks, Arabs, Berbers, Pakistanis etc. create most frictions in those countries and they aren't from former colonies.

Actually, The Netherlands does have a lot of immigrants from former colonies like Indonesia, the antilles and Surinam. Then there are a lot of Turks and Morroccans who came to Holland because there was a high demand for "guestarbeiter" back in the sixties. Ofcourse there are some other ethnicities too. But that said, the Dutch were a slave trading nation. So in that respect in a sense they may feel that they need to make up for something.

Eastern Europe and the Balkans is a whole different issue. They had no colonies and more than often had to deal with non-European invaders. Like the Ottomans or Mongols. They don't feel they owe something to anyone and I guess they'd rather be left alone in that respect.

 

[Kardu]

There are 1 million ethnic Indonesians in the Netherlands and there are virtually no problems associated with them.
Confrontation creating groups are different, I've listed them above and they are not from the former colonies!

And it's a faulty (actually pretty dangerous if you start digging and revealing all the facts) reasoning that filling up a country with migrants somehow compensates whatever the ancestors of current Dutch (or Europeans in general) did to the ancestors of peoples who live in former colonies.

 

[RaHoWa]

http://euobserver.com/social/22968

"a new study suggests that racism has increased in Europe, particularly towards the Roma community, Muslims, Jews and immigrants."

From my experience in Greece and England, this may be true but I sort of thought that Germany and especially France knew better. France in particular, I thought of as the epitome of an immigrant-welcoming nation (certainly polls in the past had shown that a great deal of French people viewed immigration as a positive thing).

Do you think this is a problem? I used to think it is related to the crisis but anti-Muslim hysteria in Britain I don' think has anything to do with it...

EDIT: http://euobserver.com/tickers/117466

I despair for Greece...

actually the French Nationalist Party or Nationale France with Marie LePene has much support.Its not as big as most mainstream parties but it has enough support to maybe get a seat or two.Immigration in France is a problem,many French people are no longer welcome to Muslim immigrants in particular but it also has to do with the French economy,the economy is bad there and many people want France to leave the EU and think being in the EU is one of the major problems of the french ecnonomy and the Nationalist Party is one of the biggest advocates for France leaving the EU and going back to using the franc only as a means of monetary unit,Plus many French people are not liking conditons caused by Muslims,like in Britain there is on going and has been growing anti-muslim feeling ever since Sharia law became a problem,Groupd like the BNP have legitimate seats in parliament and the Nationalist Party in France has some mainstream support also and not just a fringe party