Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

[Sile]

unsure if link below has been included before.

http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/ejhg2008120a.pdf

 

[oreo_cookie]

That's a haplogroup study. To really know where groups cluster you would want to see an autosomal study.

However it's conclusion was this:

"These data are compatible with the hypothesis that the largest historical demographic impact on Sicilian popula- tion was by the Greek settlers. A non-trivial question to raise for making this interpretation more plausible is whether the Greek colonies were of such size to lead to the diffusion of their genes. Because of the privileged position of Greece as ‘the door’ from the Near East to the Mediterranean, by the end of the Bronze Age the average density of the population was higher in Greece than in Europe by a factor of 3:3.7 inhabitants per square kilo- metre.34"

 

[Sile]

That's a haplogroup study. To really know where groups cluster you would want to see an autosomal study.

However it's conclusion was this:

"These data are compatible with the hypothesis that the largest historical demographic impact on Sicilian popula- tion was by the Greek settlers. A non-trivial question to raise for making this interpretation more plausible is whether the Greek colonies were of such size to lead to the diffusion of their genes. Because of the privileged position of Greece as ‘the door’ from the Near East to the Mediterranean, by the end of the Bronze Age the average density of the population was higher in Greece than in Europe by a factor of 3:3.7 inhabitants per square kilo- metre.34"

I agree, but do you refer to the types of greeks, i.e, Doric, ionion, aeolian etc ?

 

[Angela]

Most of western Sicilian R1b is of Germanic and North Italian variant, not Iberian. Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia or Latin America.

Autosomally all Sicilians cluster closely, but not identical -- eastern Sicilians score closer to Greeks, central Sicilians are high in Caucasus and low in anything MENA or North European, and western Sicilians are highest in both MENA and Northern European.

Could you provide me with a link to a published autosomal analysis or PCA plot comparing eastern Sicilians, Central Sicilians and Western Sicilians separately to other populations, including the Greek ones? I'm unaware of any such analysis.

Btw, I don't know what you mean by the fact that Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia and the New World. That doesn't seem to be the case for DF-27. Perhaps you're speaking about one particular subclade of that?

 

[oreo_cookie]

Could you provide me with a link to a published autosomal analysis or PCA plot comparing eastern Sicilians, Central Sicilians and Western Sicilians separately to other populations, including the Greek ones? I'm unaware of any such analysis.

Btw, I don't know what you mean by the fact that Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia and the New World. That doesn't seem to be the case for DF-27. Perhaps you're speaking about one particular subclade of that?

It's on this chart, Sicilian is broken down. The differences are not that great but you can see that North European, Arabic, and North African are lowest in the central Sicily group and highest in the west. Different Greeks are on there too (mainland Greeks as you see have MUCH more North European than Sicilians).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVheVE#gid=0

and about the Iberian R1b I mean that Sicilian subclades of R1b are not the same as the ones in Iberia, therefore it is unlikely they got there though any sort of Iberian ancestry.

 

[Angela]

It's on this chart, Sicilian is broken down. The differences are not that great but you can see that North European, Arabic, and North African are lowest in the central Sicily group and highest in the west. Different Greeks are on there too (mainland Greeks as you see have MUCH more North European than Sicilians).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVheVE#gid=0

and about the Iberian R1b I mean that Sicilian subclades of R1b are not the same as the ones in Iberia, therefore it is unlikely they got there though any sort of Iberian ancestry.

Sorry for the late response...


Thanks for the link...I made a sort of mini chart for myself to track the numbers. I may have missed something, but I don't find data for Eastern Sicilians (Catania area etc.) What I do find is a break-out for Central Sicily, Western Sicily, and Southern Sicily.

In terms of the clusters, the main ones that would apply to Sicilians or any Europeans, would be the Southwestern Cluster, the North Baltic and Baltic Finnic Cluster (there is no Northern European cluster), Caucasian (by which perhaps he means all West Asian), and "Arabic", which is an anachronism...if this is meant to track relatively old clusters and migrations, Arabs didn't exist then, but maybe I'm being too picky there.

So, these are the figures for the three Sicilian groups in order of Central Sicily/West Sicily/ South Sicily for the major components I mentioned:

North Baltic and Baltic/Finn: 8.61/10.60/8.67

Southwest European: 25.37/26.36/27.20

Caucasus: 35.39/33.02/34.80

Gedrosia:9.39/10.98/10.83

"Arabic": 6.73/8.58/8.01

For what you are calling the Northern European component, which in actuality is only a *Baltic* component, there is a 2 % difference between the number for the Western Sicilian, i.e. perhaps Palermo? although it doesn't say, compared to the Central and Southern Sicilian, which is hardly significant given that we're talking about *one* person from Palermo. I suppose you have in mind some sort of Norman impact there, but as I said, there isn't enough data to support that kind of inference, in my opinion.

In terms of the Southwest European, the center, because of the Lombard towns, might be expected to be a little higher in this, and instead it's the lowest, although we're only talking about a 2% spread total.

The two percent drop in Caucasus in Western Sicily compared to Central Sicily might mean that additional population migrations there cut it down a tiny bit from the rest of the island, but again, this is pretty insignificant.

Gedrosia, if, in line with some current speculation, it refers to perhaps R1b related Indo-European spread, should be higher again, in the center, and instead it's lower, albeit by *one* percent.

As for "Arabic", if one were to speculate, one might think it might show up a little lower in the center, as the Normans and the Hohenstaufens were on a mission to ethnically cleanse the area, which had become a Moorish refugia, and this is why Northern Italians were brought in to establish the "Lombard" cities. (The actual source of the population was Piemonte, Liguria, even Toscana, as well as Lombardia.) It is indeed about 2% lower than in the West, although only 1% lower than in the south.

I have to say that I am not inclined to place very much faith in these results. First of all, the creator of this run only had data from 3 Sicilians, one from each area. In my opinion, it's impossible to draw any real conclusions based on that data, especially when the numbers are actually broken out and the differences are so slight.

In terms of the analysis as a whole, it has so many components (27!) that I'm seeing an incredible amount of "noise" in some of these results. Also, it's not helpful when the results include such bottlenecked populations as the Kalash. Even less helpful is the fact that it's not very informative for anyone who isn't from the Baltics or northeastern Europe in general. That's particularly true for southern Europeans...there's only a southwestern component; no southeastern component, no northwestern component, and actually, not even a North European component...all that I see are some Baltic components.

Btw, I can't see how anyone could draw phenotypic differences between the various areas of the island based on 1% differences in admixture components.

In my opinion, the Sicilians seem to be a pretty homogenous bunch, well mixed and stirred...I think the same is true in general of the southern Italians, whereas there are distinct differences in some areas of the north, not only in comparison to the south, but in comparison to one another. My current working hypothesis is that this can be laid to the door of politics over the last 700 to one thousand years. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies encompassed all of the South from just south of Rome to Sicily. The Byzantine era also overlaid a lot of the South.

In the north it was different...many areas ruled themselves...Venice for example, was it's own Republic until almost the 1800's. Tuscany was pretty autonomous as well. Areas like Liguria and Lombardia likewise ruled themselves as city-states for a long time, before coming under the rule of the French in the first case, and Austria Hungary in the second. It was much harder for northern Italians to move location to what was in some cases virtually another county, and so I think there was a certain amount of drift and preservation of older migration patterns.


Anyway, that's my ti cents worth...

 

[Sile]

In the north it was different...many areas ruled themselves...Venice for example, was it's own Republic until almost the 1800's. Tuscany was pretty autonomous as well. Areas like Liguria and Lombardia likewise ruled themselves as city-states for a long time, before coming under the rule of the French in the first case, and Austria Hungary in the second. It was much harder for northern Italians to move location to what was in some cases virtually another county, and so I think there was a certain amount of drift and preservation of older migration patterns.


Anyway, that's my ti cents worth...

Another country, very much so.

Example, searching a way for a relative to gain italian citizenship. ( his ancestors left in 1913 ), the Italian government sent me this, I converted it.
Italian Citizenship Law No. 379 of December 14, 2000 - All applicants for Italian citizenship under Law No. 379 of December 14 2000, whose ancestors emigrated from the Austrian-Hungarian Territories before July 16 1920, must submit their applications to the Italian Consulate within the deadline of December 20 2010.
If your ancestor was born in the following regions: Veneto, Friuli Venezia Giulia, Trentino, to apply for the Italian citizenship you need to prove that he/she left Italy after July 16th 1920.

This means that any "Italian" from Veneto, Friuli, Trentino and Venezia Giulia, who left Italy before July 16 1920, is not an Italian and never was an Italian after the Italian Nation annexed these regions in 1870. ( 50 years) that's what was stated...........what ethnicity where these people for 50 years? Alpine?, Austrian?
What of all the millions that went to Brazil and Argentina from these areas, was it a "culling" system encouraging migration ??

 

[oreo_cookie]

I have to say that I am not inclined to place very much faith in these results. First of all, the creator of this run only had data from 3 Sicilians, one from each area. In my opinion, it's impossible to draw any real conclusions based on that data, especially when the numbers are actually broken out and the differences are so slight.

The Western Sicilian group had more than one person in the sample. But my observations about the trends are relevant for people I know on 23andme from southern and central Sicily not included in the Dodecad data I sent you. The pattern always follows; slightly more Caucasus in the center, slightly more Northern European and North African in the west (Palermo, Agrigento etc.). But yes, the difference is only by a few percentages each time, but still apparent.

Btw, I can't see how anyone could draw phenotypic differences between the various areas of the island based on 1% differences in admixture components.

Well, for whatever reason there are differences. There is a typical "Sicilian" look (Greek islander, southern Italian look more or less) but there are a higher number of people with a "Northern"/"Nordic" influence along the northern coast (especially in Palermo), while people from the south of the island are almost homogenously dark (Ragusa, southern Caltanissetta, Agrigento), and people along the east coast tend to be the most strongly "Ancient Greek" or "Minoan" looking. My family from Messina looks very Greek, while my great grandmother from Palermo has a Levantine look, but with blue eyes and light features (she looks almost like Ruth Bader Ginsburg).

And I do think people in the central regions, like Enna and Catania, have a strongly "Anatolian" look, although many of them have light pigmentation which may be due to Lombard influence, or even just isolation.

In my opinion, the Sicilians seem to be a pretty homogenous bunch, well mixed and stirred.

Overall that may be true, but I don't discount subtle differences.

 

[Angela]

The Western Sicilian group had more than one person in the sample. But my observations about the trends are relevant for people I know on 23andme from southern and central Sicily not included in the Dodecad data I sent you. The pattern always follows; slightly more Caucasus in the center, slightly more Northern European and North African in the west (Palermo, Agrigento etc.). But yes, the difference is only by a few percentages each time, but still apparent.




Well, for whatever reason there are differences. There is a typical "Sicilian" look (Greek islander, southern Italian look more or less) but there are a higher number of people with a "Northern"/"Nordic" influence along the northern coast (especially in Palermo), while people from the south of the island are almost homogenously dark (Ragusa, southern Caltanissetta, Agrigento), and people along the east coast tend to be the most strongly "Ancient Greek" or "Minoan" looking. My family from Messina looks very Greek, while my great grandmother from Palermo has a Levantine look, but with blue eyes and light features (she looks almost like Ruth Bader Ginsburg).

And I do think people in the central regions, like Enna and Catania, have a strongly "Anatolian" look, although many of them have light pigmentation which may be due to Lombard influence, or even just isolation.



Overall that may be true, but I don't discount subtle differences.

Point taken, 4 West Sicilians...however, only 1 South Sicilian and 1 Central Sicilian, and the differences are most of the time on the order of 1 percent. Nit picking perhaps, but also, the results to which you provided a link are not from a dodecad calculator created by Dienekes...they are from the MDLP calculator, hence the emphasis on Baltic type clusters, and the lack of West European or Mediterranean clusters.

Be that as it may, I find your certainty about these things rather amazing...You do realize this is all based on your own subjective interpretations, don't you? I mean, I play this game too, but I know it's a game, and I'm more than willing to admit it's subjective, and then, at least I'm Italian, so I think I have a pretty good "pattern" in my head for what Italians look like. Where does this dogmaticsm come from? Are you Sicilian? Born and bred on the island? Anywhere in Italy? Or are you basing your opinions on a few relatives from the Sicilian diaspora in the U.S. and on internet photos...I don't think that's a very good basis for making authoritative statements about the phenotypes of Sicilians from various parts of their island.

These are all Sicilians by the way...their "Sicilian-ness", at least, can be quantified because they are public figures, not people of whose actual ancestry nothing is known.

The following three people are from Palermo...
The great director and actor of stage and and screen...Luigi LoCascio...he doesn't look either "northern European" or North African to me...
http://www.klpteatro.it/images/stories/2009/luigi-lo-cascio290.jpg

Same for "Bandito Giuliano"...also from Palermo province...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wNssAnIiR...ANtg/5AeayTx-v0c/s1600/salvatore+giuliano.jpg
When I was a child, I was often told he would come and get me if I didn't behave...they used Barbarossa to scare me too...we have long cultural memories in Italy....lol

Then there's Francesco Scianna, the star of the great Tornatore movie "Baaria"...is that what you mean by North African looking? Whatever you call it...sign me up...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=X&ei=5ThnUoTmK-bk4APGw4DYCg&ved=0CI0BEPwdMAo

From Taormina...pretty darn close to Messina...Guido Caprini...star of an Italian crime series I enjoy watching...is this what you mean by Greek looking?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/185198_206762212706569_1358723_n.jpg


These two are both from Catania, east coast of Sicily, about midway between Messina and Siracusa...and neither one of them look particularly Greek to me...
http://cdn.blogosfere.it/tweetblog/images/Fiorello-Grillo.jpg
http://www.celluloidportraits.com/i...EGISTIeATTORI7/Giuseppe Fiorello 1_5123_N.jpg

Also from Catania, Salvatore Lazzaro...Greek or Italian looking, but basically he's just *good* looking...lol
http://vs2.streamcaster.net/trs/news_2096_lazzaro.JPG

From Sciacca,
http://www.hot-news.it/portal/images/stories/2009/12_Dicembre/daniele_interrante.jpg

And, from the center of the island...nothing comes to mind...lol...no insult intended to the people of that area...maybe it's too late...

Anyway, that was fun, but getting back to things that are at least a little quantifiable...Biasutti's map of pigmentation for Italy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png

I don't know of any more exhaustive study of the subject, and it correlates with my personal experience. .As you can see, the areas for Sicily are not neatly divided into south, center and west, although the western part of the island is a little "fairer". Messina, by the way, seems to be in a "darker" stretch, much like Calabria across the water.

Of course, these are variations on a theme...you're not going to find very many Swedish looking Italians

 

[oreo_cookie]

You can find exceptions to every rule. But, based on my observations AND that of people I know who have been to all of Sicily, there are general trends on the island by phenotype.. and you can deny them all you like, and post specific examples of people who contradict one's preconceptions, but in the end I have my opinion and you have yours.

 

[Nobody1]

I don't know of any more exhaustive study of the subject, and it correlates with my personal experience

This data comes from Dr. R. Livi - Antropometria Militare / ~ 299,000 recruits examined from all regions

Sicilians are vastly Dolichocephalic Mediterranid;
some Sicilians from Anthropological studies -

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe - plates]

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]

 

[Sile]

This data comes from Dr. R. Livi - Antropometria Militare / ~ 299,000 recruits examined from all regions

Sicilians are vastly Dolichocephalic Mediterranid;
some Sicilians from Anthropological studies -

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe - plates]

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]

IIRC, livi did his test in 1865 and trentino, friuli and part of Veneto was not recorded. The veneto had only 2 of the 7 provinces, Verona and Rovigo which was tested

 

[adamo]

Again, anthropology inconclusive and useless as usual in the face of haplogroups and modern genetic science, anthropology is the least precise form of human analyzation in my opinion.

 

[adamo]

It is based on a system of vague classifications based on looks and physical traits that doesn't quite hold up to modern science.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Autosomal DNA provides the most complete picture of population groups. Sicilians are a distinct grouping on many levels.

 

[Nobody1]

@ adamo

I think there might be some Genetic proof (underlining) to the Elymians being Trojan recordings;

Romano et al 2003 - did an autosomal-DNA test in which it turned out that Castellammare clusters closest with Turkey;
The significance is that Castellammare was the ancient harbor of Segesta [an Elymian settlement];
The Elymians (as we all know) are recorded to have been Trojans (i.e. Anatolians);

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
On the fall of Ilium, some of the Trojans escaped from the Achaeans, came in ships to Sicily, and settled next to the Sicanians under the general name of Elymi; their towns being called Eryx and Egesta.

All other 6 tested modern-day Sicilian towns cluster on complete diff. branches;

Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7

 

[adamo]

Excellent; don't forget that the Phoenicians colonized the western tip and the Greeks heavily colonized the east, north, south and with settlements such as Agrigento and Heraclea Minoa, even parts bordering on the south-west of the island. The Phoenicians had long arrived to western Sicily by the time a Trojan substratum arrived with Aeneas of Troy.

 

[Nobody1]

Excellent; don't forget that the Phoenicians colonized the western tip and the Greeks heavily colonized the east, north, south and with settlements such as Agrigento and Heraclea Minoa, even parts bordering on the south-west of the island. The Phoenicians had long arrived to western Sicily by the time a Trojan substratum arrived with Aeneas of Troy.

I think the Trojans arrived before the Phoenicians;
Trojan war in ancient dating is the early 12th cen BC
The first Phoenician colony (not really sure) prob. was Motya ~8th cen BC;
Carthage itself was only founded in the late 9th cen BC; So the Trojans (Elymi) must have settled earlier;

DiGaetano et al 2012 (post #55) shows the Sicilians are autosomal-DNA very similar to South Italians;
Figures from DODECAD 'K12b' (not academic/not to be taken seriously)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...EY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEYlE&hl=en_US#gid=0
S Italian & Sicilian [10 samples] - (5.5% Gedrosia)
29.9% Atl.-Med. / 11.8% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
12.5% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia
2.5% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan
Sicilian [15 samples] - (4.5% Gedrosia)
30.0% Atl.-Med. / 11.9% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
11.9% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia
4.1% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.2% Sub-Saharan

This makes the results from Romano et al 2003 - extra special;
It shows that certain specific areas with a certain specific historical backround are also Genetically diverse from the rest of the island as is the case with Castellammare the ancient Trojans and modern-day Turkey;

The Y-DNA results from DiGaetano et al 2009 are also very revealing;
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
as are the mtDNA results from Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7

 

[adamo]

I agree totally

 

[oreo_cookie]

I thought modern consensus was that the Elymians were related to either the Hittites or to Armenians. But either way that'd still be Anatolian.

Notice also Butera and Sciacca, also in western Sicily, drift toward the Turkey cluster. Troina, Caccamo etc. should have more Greek input.